Tangle & Whisper: the dynamics of gameplay

[iambitter21]

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to be clear with you guys, I never read the IDW comic in my life, except for the first 2 or 3 issues in the series. that also means that I had no clue of the existence of tangle and whisper. but thanks to Game Apologist's Sonic Speed Reading, I was able to get a grip and these characters and how they bounce off of each other. not only did I discover their personalities and dynamics (get it?), but I also got a good sense of their abilities and powers. starting with the happy-go lucky gal: whisper.

Tangle is a lemur that has a long prehensile tail that she uses to tangle (hehe) her enemies in her tail, she can also use to squeeze them like a boa constrictor. along side using it like a normal hand at times, she can also use it like a grappling hook, something the avatar did in forces (if not very automated and choppy) and even at times a slingshot (at least I think, I don't remember that much of Sonic Speed Reading) for others.

let's not forget the other thing that the avatar does that this other character does better: use a wispon. here is the "guardian angel" (as said by silver) a.k.a whisper:

oooh I get it: WHISPer, WISPon, it all comes together. anyways, enough digressing, Whisper is a wolf with a sort of wispon that instead of only using one wisp to do one or two abilities that can do almost all of the wispon abilities, if not more refined and fun to see. here are some of them

Laser wisp acts like they did in colors and lost world, but in a miniature form.

Rocket wisp is an exploding sniper

Burst is a Flamethrower

Spike is a saw-blade Launcher

Cube is a hammer weapon

 and Hover is a hover move, who would've thought?

I don't know the abilities of the other because they're either non-existent, or they're not shown yet.

Whisper also has a mask, with not only works as a sniper aimer, but also as a wisp translator. she overall has a very nice friendship with the wisp.

now that we now there powers, it's time to get down their gameplay, how would YOU want them to play in the next sonic game? not just their abilities since they've been dealt with, but their level design, obstacles and mechanics n' stuff.

[MetalSkulkBane]

I kinda don't?

Ok, quick clarifications.
1) It's not the old "Sonic has too large cast" argument. It's valid, but we're spitballing here.
2) I don't have anything against the two, in fact I quite like them.

My problem is that I can't imagine them working in current Sonic Model, would that be classic 2D or 3D-ish boost. Maybe in Adventure style, but it's been so long we had game in that style (let alone GOOD game) I can't make real visualization.

First rule of designing good Sonic character for gameplay reasons: give him/her power that creates interesting MOVEMENT, not fighting skills.
Whisper is instant fail. Guns don't work in speedy platforming. Don't say "Forces OC", that thing was shallow as puddle during drought. And you want to give her more guns? Besides she's a sniper first, brawler second. It's not spin dash to the face model.
Tangle is a little better. I guess her tail can make sudo-homing attack, she can grab ledges and enemies. But I don't see how it would be fun. Isn't it just Silver in Sonic 06, but with even less versatility? My best idea would be bouncing on her tail (think Tigger from Winnie the Pooh).

So at best I can imagine them having completely different gameplay from Sonic. More like Klonoa or Ratchet & Clank. But not running though same levels like in Sonic Mania.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Either keep the comic characters in the comics or let every universe (X, Archie, AoSTH, Boom, etc.) get involved in the games.

No exceptions.

[Wraith]

Tangle is a no brainer that I made a topic about in the past. A grappling hook with some kind of elastic effect pairs well with basically all forms of Sonic gameplay, but it would do best with a heavy emphasis on physics. Swinging off poles, rails and ledges. Grabbing objects on the ground, either to anchor yourself to them until you pick up speed or to pick up and throw things quickly. So much comes to mind as soon as I see her that she feels like a natural fit for a video game. It's an even more intuitive design than Tails or Knuckles who's abilities you wouldn't be able to guess at a glance like that. 

Whisper is a little harder to figure out. I kind of want the wispon to be a multiuse tool like it is in Forces instead of a pure sniper rifle. Swapping abilities mid level sounds like a lot of fun. Make it similar to Nero's Devil Breaker mechanic to encourage swapping and improvising depending on the situation and you might have a weird, but fun playstyle.

Laser: A short air dash. Maybe it could go in 8 directions if we're talking a 2D game
Spike: A spike roller weapon. She can use it to run up walls
Drill: More or less how it behaves in Sonic Colors with the added ability to drill in a 3D space. Maybe this could even borrow some mechanics from Knuckles's digging ability in a game where he's not available. 
Burst: I was thinking for this one she causes an explosion beneath her that makes it a double jump. Maybe she can charge it to jump high.
Hover: A gentle glide down.
Cube: A slam that can also slide down uneven surfaces but doesn't have any movement on flat ground.

[iambitter21]

well then... if not a mainline sonic game, how about a spin off? those might be pretty easy to make right?

[Iko]

I wouldn't mind Tangle and Whisper in the games, they are nice characters that seem to be designed with gameplay in mind even thought they originated in a comic.

I think that, about Tangle, all has been already said in the previous posts. I would add that it would be a bit complex to design her gameplay and her grappling hook physics since Sega seems to not be able to even get basic platforming physics right, but in an hipotetical world where physics is not an issue and all the concepts can be made into games with no issues, Tangle would be a lot of fun, and a bit of Worms Armageddon/Umihara Kawase hanging gameplay in Sonic. I think that Big the Cat could serve a similar purpose too due to his fishing rod, but his heavy wheight and paceful nature would still differentiate him enough from Tangle even if he would get the grappling hook mechanics too (I would see Big more as a wrecking ball, while Tangle would me a more agile character).

I honestly don't have many sonic-like gameplay ideas for Whisper actually... but I whish she is added to the games more than any other character, because... so maybe they would stop to place wisps as a gimmick in every game and limit them to this character only in order to make her stand out more from the rest of the crew. I think that her gameplay can be a mix of abilities from several different characters... she can have Tails' fly, Knuckles' dig, Amy's hammer sort of... I admit though that I don't like her design too much; among the two, she is the one who feels like a fan character the most, but since she was based on an avatar made in Sonic Forces, I guess that that's the point of the character in the first place; anyway it just bugs me a bit but I can live with it.

Tangle and Whisper can also get their Heroes-like team with the standard wolf avatar from Forces, they could be Team Resistance, though I'm not sure if they would fit the Speed-Fly-Power types well (Maybe Tangle is power, Whisper is fly and the avatar is speed? It would still be a bit weird).

[DabigRG]

I kinda wouldn't.

10 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Either keep the comic characters in the comics or let every universe (X, Archie, AoSTH, Boom, etc.) get involved in the games.

No exceptions.

I can agree to that.

6 hours ago, Iko said:

I admit though that I don't like her design too much; among the two, she is the one who feels like a fan character the most, but since she was based on an avatar made in Sonic Forces, I guess that that's the point of the character in the first place; anyway it just bugs me a bit but I can live with it.

 

That and SEGA got the say on what the final base design would look like, with her development being similar to Silver's.

[Natie]

10 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Either keep the comic characters in the comics or let every universe (X, Archie, AoSTH, Boom, etc.) get involved in the games.

No exceptions.

Why? No real reason for an all or nothing ultimatum like this.

Those two could fit in the the games universe cuz their comic is set in the games universe. We might just be having trouble getting used to that fact that there's finally an alternate media series that that doesnt take place in its own retold universe for once.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

51 minutes ago, Natie said:

Why? No real reason for an all or nothing ultimatum like this.

Because they don’t deserve to be in the games anymore than other characters from alternate settings. People wanted Archie to keep to itself even after it rebooted to be in-line with the games (far more than IDW currently is, ironically enough) and did a complete adaptation of Sonic Unleashed with the Shattered World Crisis arc along with using the entire game franchise’s history to tell its backstory, so IDW should do the same and keep to itself and not have it’s characters be in the games either.

Alternate characters should stay in their alternate universes; otherwise, if you’re going to immigrate these two into the games, others should be given that privilege too.

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Those two could fit in the the games universe cuz their comic is set in the games universe. We might just be having trouble getting used to that fact that there's finally an alternate media series that that doesnt take place in its own retold universe for once.

Yeah? So was Archie Sonic Post-Reboot before IDW was even a thing—we already had this before Tangle and Whisper were even on the drawing board, and the entire IDW setting owes its influences to that given that many of its concepts like the Metal Virus were meant for Archie Sonic. As was Sonic X when it did it’s adaptations of SA1 and 2. And while it certainly did a wacky take on it, AoSTH certainly tried to evoke the games using settings of Classic zones like Star Light, Chemical Plant, and Casino Night. No one’s having trouble getting used to anything—I’ve been with this series throughout every alternate incarnation it’s been through and enjoyed them (except Boom, but I’m still willing let characters like Sticks have a shot in the games if others like Tangle are going to be considered). It’s a matter of pointing out the preferential treatment of these characters over those that came before. And let’s not even pretend like that isn’t a thing.

[DabigRG]

38 minutes ago, Natie said:

Why? No real reason for an all or nothing ultimatum like this.

Those two could fit in the the games universe cuz their comic is set in the games universe. We might just be having trouble getting used to that fact that there's finally an alternate media series that that doesnt take place in its own retold universe for once.

Technically, no: the official view is that IDW is heavily inspired by the games, but otherwise it's own thing. This is likely why SEGA is strict on character designs and characterizations, but open about everything else.

That and Sonic Team being Sonic Team.

[Natie]

8 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Technically, no: the official view is that IDW is heavily inspired by the games, but otherwise it's own thing. This is likely why SEGA is strict on character designs and characterizations, but open about everything else.

That and Sonic Team being Sonic Team.

Oh yeah, i know the stories being told are un-cannon but in terms of the world itself it's one where all the games have happened in ergo being the games world instead of retelling the entire mythos of sonic from scratch like all the other comics and cartoons and movies do and man, that's a refreshing feeling.

For that reason i think characters based in the games world like tangle and wisper would fit in the games far better than Don Bluth furries or Fleischer/UPA cartoon wackos or Underground's alien abominations and stuff so i dont see why everything else would need to be incorporated too. (Tho you may have a case for X and Boom).

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I don’t see why we somehow can’t make all those other characters fit in the games.

Retooling and redesigning is a thing.

[Natie]

1 hour ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

I don’t see why we somehow can’t make all those other characters fit in the games.

Retooling and redesigning is a thing.

Sure, but is adding in all that much just to "make it fair" really nessesary? Reboot Archie basically did what you're imagining by smashing a ton of continuities together and redesigning it into a unified style but i found that to be kind of a messy clusterfuck. (And they didn't even include all of them)

 

I see where you're getting at but I'm in the camp of "pick and choose only the best and most fitting stuff" myself, and I think these two would be okay, considering it's already easy to imagine them in gameplay.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

48 minutes ago, Natie said:

Sure, but is adding in all that much just to "make it fair" really nessesary?

Yes? Otherwise, why bother adding Tangle and Whisper, then?

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Reboot Archie basically did what you're imagining by smashing a ton of continuities together and redesigning it into a unified style but i found that to be kind of a messy clusterfuck. (And they didn't even include all of them)

 

I see where you're getting at but I'm in the camp of "pick and choose only the best and most fitting stuff" myself, and I think these two would be okay, considering it's already easy to imagine them in gameplay.

Sounds more like a lack of effort where I’m standing. (That, and my point on preferential treatment being proven)

The fact that Reboot Archie did it to begin with shows it’s possible. It’s also not impossible to streamline and focus things—even if they didn’t include everyone, it showed that any character can be retooled and redesigned to fit, and like Tangle and Whisper it’s easy to imagine gameplay for them. Like how many characters can already spin dash or move at high speeds? Fly? Climb walls? Break boulders? Shoot missiles or lasers?

This is just basic stuff as it is, and Tangle and Whisper aren’t any different in that regard to the likes of say Bunnie Rabbot who almost does all of the above or Sally whom we could incorporate swordplay with spin-attacks or dash attacks (as a hypothetical).

[thumbs13]

15 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Either keep the comic characters in the comics or let every universe (X, Archie, AoSTH, Boom, etc.) get involved in the games.

No exceptions.

....Why? That doesn't make sense on any level. It's never an all or nothing deal. Some characters get in, some don't.
Nobody does this for any other franchise. When Harley Quinn became a comics character nobody was begging for Egghead or the Music Meister to get in too. 
Not all characters, adaptations, or alternate properties are created equal, that's just common sense.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

14 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

....Why? That doesn't make sense on any level. It's never an all or nothing deal. Some characters get in, some don't.
Nobody does this for any other franchise. When Harley Quinn became a comics character nobody was begging for Egghead or the Music Meister to get in too. 
Not all characters, adaptations, or alternate properties are created equal, that's just common sense.

I already answered why above...

And I don’t care if everything isn’t created equally.

[thumbs13]

4 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

I already answered why above...

Yeah, but it just sounds like you want all your faves to get into the games and if they can't get in, nobody can. There's no actual reason to shackle all the characters together because of something as vague as "deserving" to be in the games. Of all the things that aren't a meritocracy, which characters get put into a video game is the least one decided by merit out of them all.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

10 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

Yeah, but it just sounds like you want all your faves to get into the games and if they can't get in, nobody can. 

Nice try, but no.

Not everyone from the other alternate settings are my favorites— I sure as hell don’t have any strong liking of Sticks, and Longclaw isn’t anywhere close to being my favorite, but I’m aware these have their fans and they should have a shot at appearing as well.

The idea that alternate characters should stay in their alternate settings isn’t anything new and has been around long before IDW came about, and I see no reason why that should change now just because the IDW comics have two characters people are fond of unless we’re going to extend that privilege to others.

They don’t have to be my favorites, we just need to not be hypocrites about it. Characters that get in should definitely be decided by merit as much as they should by popularity—if we’re not going to do that, then we shouldn’t allow any alternate characters to be in at all.

[thumbs13]

3 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Nice try, but no.

Not everyone from the other alternate settings are my favorites— I sure as hell don’t have any strong liking of Sticks, and Longclaw isn’t anywhere close to being my favorite, but I’m aware these have their fans and they should have a shot at appearing as well.

The idea that alternate characters should stay in their alternate settings isn’t anything new and has been around long before IDW came about, and I see no reason why that should change now just because the IDW comics have two characters people are fond of unless we’re going to extend that privilege to others.

They don’t have to be my favorites, we just need to not be hypocrites about it.

It's because the IDW comics are newer. These discussions don't all happen at the same time. It's just that Tangle and WHisper are new and fresh and all those other characters fell into irrelevancy. 

It's not being a hypocrite to change your mind over a period of like ten years.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

2 hours ago, thumbs13 said:

It's because the IDW comics are newer. These discussions don't all happen at the same time. It's just that Tangle and WHisper are new and fresh and all those other characters fell into irrelevancy. 

It's not being a hypocrite to change your mind over a period of like ten years.

No, but it is being a hypocrite to treat them as if they’re better fits to the game setting than other characters before them who’ve been given that same treatment with redesigns, or to act like that can’t be done for characters in alternate settings and treat them as irrelevant for being older. A lot of people have already shown their hands on this idea when this is brought up even with (especially with) Tangle and Whisper being around, so I’m gonna hold people to that same standard for these two.

And I don’t care how new IDW is—Mighty and Ray took decades before finally being retooled and used strictly for the Classic series (the subject of which is another discussion entirely), and Classic Sonic himself took over a decade of clamoring for him to return until it was finally given. I’d doubt you’d call them irrelevant now, and I’d honestly rather people not have to wait so long or their favorite being brushed of as “irrelevant” when they can be given a new lease on life as well—they can offer something just as valuable to gameplay as Tangle and Whisper can, if they haven’t already.

[DabigRG]

How about we actually add characters that bring something to the game world/cast regardless of origin?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

2 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

How about we actually add characters that bring something to the game world/cast regardless of origin?

Yes, we should very much do that.

[JezMM]

If I had to apply Whisper to a more platformy style, I would make it so her rifle can be used for movement actions too.  I like the idea that maybe a charge shot, when used in mid-air, fired in the opposite direction of where you want to move, would launch her as a double-jump sort of thing, like run-n-gun platformers where you can hover in mid-air by shooting downwards etc.  I like the idea of keeping it theoretically simple - so you use the same inputs for combat with the rifle as you do for platforming with the rifle, but as such you need to be concious of the platforming movements that using your rifle in a combat situation will cause etc.  In a game with both Tangle and Whisper playable, I imagine Whisper being the one who is trickier to play as but can do some really cool stuff once you get good at her, etc.

The tricky part is that Wisps are so integral to her character and I'd really rather her gameplay not get bogged down by a million different powerups, because I don't want Sonic gameplay to be overly complex but I also don't want them to be as inconsequential to gameplay as they were in Sonic Forces.

21 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

It’s a matter of pointing out the preferential treatment of these characters over those that came before. And let’s not even pretend like that isn’t a thing.

Of course it's a thing, that's what happens when certain characters are more well-recieved than others?  Tangle and Whisper are cool kickass girlfriends and I wanna play as them doing cool kickass girlfriend stuff.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 hour ago, JezMM said:

Of course it's a thing, that's what happens when certain characters are more well-recieved than others?  Tangle and Whisper are cool kickass girlfriends and I wanna play as them doing cool kickass girlfriend stuff.

You know full well that’s not what I meant after I just explained my point above.

I’m sure plenty want to play as their favorites—be it Sally, Bunnie, Sticks, Whisper, or whomever. I’d like to play as Sally with her ring blades, and it’s not like she isn’t a massively popular character fans want in the games.

[JezMM]

3 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

You know full well that’s not what I meant after I just explained my point above.

I’m sure plenty want to play as their favorites—be it Sally, Bunnie, Sticks, Whisper, or whomever. I’d like to play as Sally with her ring blades, and it’s not like she isn’t a massively popular character people want in the games.

Nothing's stopping you from making your own thread about that then. I don't really see why you couldn't just not engage if the topic didn't interest you.  The OP asked how people would like to see them if they were playable, not whether they should be playable at all.  Your initial response (and then continued defense of your stance) just kinda derails the thread by poo-pooing the entire concept.