Balan Wonderworld (Yuji Naka + Square Enix)

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

4 minutes ago, Soniman said:

Balan doesn't even look anything like nights from a gameplay perspective anyway. Just looks like a....really slow platformer 

Still interested but yeah I don't think Sega is shaking in their boots 

Tell me about it. At best, it looks like it might be something of a dream land, but the relationships seem to be barely skin deep at best.

And yeah, people really need to quit with the whole "lol SEGA dead meme" just because they're not satisfied with how SEGA are handling Sonic. It's a gross misrepresentation of how the company at large is doing.

Not that I don't still want another actual NiGHTS game.

[KHCast]

The game needs to be a out of the gate success or else Square’s dropping it and not funding Naka developed platformers going forward.

 

 

Remember when we could have mid-tier games, that were made with a niche in mind, that didn’t have to sell gangbusters, but were budgeted accordingly, so it wouldn’t be a loss if it didn’t sell that well? Yeah I miss that. This “indie or AAA” mentality really is killing creativity I feel

[Dejimon11]

And this game comes out as the same day as Monster Hunter Rise. This guy can't catch a break can he? 

[PC the Hedgehog]

Frankly, I'm surprised Square is even willing to give a AAA platformer a shot, even with Naka's pedigree. It's just not their kind of game. I'm honestly kind of worried.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

19 hours ago, Dejimon11 said:

And this game comes out as the same day as Monster Hunter Rise. This guy can't catch a break can he? 

Not only that, but all things considered the game looks rather rough around the edges.

I'm not exactly holding my breath on it being a bombastic performance,  especially given Naka's track record ever since he left Sonic 06 mid-development 

[Wraith]

18 hours ago, KHCast said:

The game needs to be a out of the gate success or else Square’s dropping it and not funding Naka developed platformers going forward.

 

Remember when we could have mid-tier games, that were made with a niche in mind, that didn’t have to sell gangbusters, but were budgeted accordingly, so it wouldn’t be a loss if it didn’t sell that well? Yeah I miss that. This “indie or AAA” mentality really is killing creativity I feel

Balan clearly isn't a AAA production though so I'm not sure if that's the issue. It actually seems made with the concession that 3D platformers aren't so hot anymore in mind. 

[KHCast]

34 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Balan clearly isn't a AAA production though so I'm not sure if that's the issue. It actually seems made with the concession that 3D platformers aren't so hot anymore in mind. 

I don’t see where there’s any evidence that square is going in expecting small returns when they’re literally saying they expect a brand new IP based on a genre they barely touch to be a success out the gate or else they’re dropping it and the genre immediately. Still sounds pretty damn unreasonable even if the game itself isn’t “AAA”. The expectations from Square are making it sound like they’re expecting it to be lucrative to be a franchise akin to something AAA (cause everything has to be a franchise now)

[Wraith]

2 minutes ago, KHCast said:

I don’t see where there’s any evidence that square is going in expecting small returns when they’re literally saying they expect a brand new IP based on a genre they barely touch to be a success out the gate or else they’re dropping it and the genre immediately. Still sounds pretty damn unreasonable 

They expect a return on what they spent, which has always been the case in the gaming industry. Large budget or small, it needs to made back. I can't think of many IPs or creators that got a second chance after the first one was a flop. 

They also didn't say anything about it needing to be a success out of the gate. You're attaching a narrative to this story where there isn't one. 

Balan Wonderworld represents the exact type of mid budget spending on a niche that youre talking about. It's far from the only recent example you can pull too. Mid or lower budget games for niches have been back for a while, but they still need to perform. 

[KHCast]

35 minutes ago, Wraith said:

They expect a return on what they spent, which has always been the case in the gaming industry. Large budget or small, it needs to made back. I can't think of many IPs or creators that got a second chance after the first one was a flop. 

It’s a completely new genre to square Enix, and a niche genre at that in this era unless you’re Nintendo, if it doesn’t do well, especially if they’re not pushing on the marketing that hard, that’s to be expected. If they don’t have a contingent in those situations that’s on them. A multi million/billion dollar company giving the finger to a developer/studio if something is “below expectations” isn’t always reasonable, especially when said publisher has their own expectations of success vs what’s actually reasonable/practical (see Dead Space 3, Battlefield V, RE7, Titanfall 2, etc) And considering Square Enix’s track record on unreasonable expectations, I’m not exactly optimistic they’ll be reasonable here with whatever number their wanting. Especially when you’re releasing your title next to something big, that’s on the publisher and their own ineptitude
 

35 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Balan Wonderworld represents the exact type of mid budget spending on a niche that youre talking about. It's far from the only recent example you can pull too. Mid or lower budget games for niches have been back for a while, but they still need to perform. 

They need to perform, but they also don’t need publishers trying to mold them into things they will never be. (Again, Dead Space 3) And even if it doesn’t perform, like a lot of PS2 era mid shelf games didn't, if budgeted correctly, they won’t do much harm to a company and have said company scampering back to the familiar. It’s why, even when certain games back then were flops, studios were still able to experiment and give smaller projects a chance. Something that isn’t as common now as you’re trying to make it out to be. You certainly don’t see Activision or EA take many chances with “middle shelf/mid tier” titles. Again, it’s either Indie or AAA for many of them, with indie often being conflated with middle shelf. Something like Focus Home games work, which is specifically middle shelf, I fail to see most of these developers indulge in much

Edit: Also 

[Tracker_TD]

I mean, Balan may not be a AAA game, but it's certainly got a AAA pricetag. It's $60... and for a game that looks this iffy, I'm not sure people will go for that. 

(I know people just dropped $60 on three 3D platformers in a pack, but that's Mario.)

[Wraith]

I wasn't commenting either way on the game's chances of success. I think it's odds are low, but that's just because the concept isn't that exciting and it has looked very rough every time we've seen it. All of that is before we get whatever Square expects from it involved. I can't comment on that since we have no idea what they expect from it. I was just saying the idea that mid budget games are gone and that this is yet another example of overspending doesn't seem to apply.

23 minutes ago, KHCast said:

They need to perform, but they also don’t need publishers trying to mold them into things they will never be. (Again, Dead Space 3) And even if it doesn’t perform, like a lot of PS2 era mid shelf games didn't, if budgeted correctly, they won’t do much harm to a company and have said company scampering back to the familiar. It’s why, even when certain games back then were flops, studios were still able to experiment and give smaller projects a chance. Something that isn’t as common now as you’re trying to make it out to be. You certainly don’t see Activision or EA take many chances with “middle shelf/mid tier” titles. Again, it’s either Indie or AAA for many of them, with indie often being conflated with middle shelf. Something like Focus Home games work, which is specifically middle shelf, I fail to see most of these developers indulge in much

 

iO Interactive's Hitman series, most of SEGA/ATLUS's current catalogue, Platinum Games, the occasional offbeat bethesda project like prey and Hellblade  are just a few examples of middle budget spending that they've mostly seen a return on. Even bigger companies like Activision have examples in their Crash and Tony Hawk remasters. There's far more leniency on the types of games that can be made compared to last gen and that's only growing going into the next.

How else do you think it's possible that multiple 3D platformers can be on the docket for the next few years? They're allowed to exist now as lower budget releases than your average game. That's a sign that things are changing. 

[KHCast]

38 minutes ago, Wraith said:

iO Interactive's Hitman series, most of SEGA/ATLUS's current catalogue, Platinum Games, the occasional offbeat bethesda project like prey and Hellblade

Ehhh most of those Id still apply to and consider AAA more than midshelf tbh, with the exception of Sega in certain situations and Hellblade (though Hellblade seems to be getting going AAA with its sequel). Yakuza is one of SEGA’s most profitable franchises, along with Sonic. Puyo Puyo is a smaller title but Idk if I would call it middle shelf. Hitman definitely is a big franchise for Square that has gotten multiple sequels, Platinum games works with AAA publishers and franchises frequently on their titles and sell them for full price often times, and Prey...well bethesda intentionally screwed over that game series and set it up to fail following its first title. I wouldn’t really consider that a good example, and even ignoring that, Bethesda certainly gave that series the AAA treatment with deluxe editions, collectors editions, full 60 dollar tags, I believe one of them had a season pass, etc. honestly, a lot of these examples of yours still indulged in AAA culture in one form or another I feel

 

And Crash and Tony Hawk are...well Crash and Tony Hawk. Established franchises with legacies and nostalgia. If we’re specifically talking mid tier games that don’t always need to become annualized, or get ANY sequel, to be considered worth something to a company, those two certainly aren’t it 

[Wraith]

24 minutes ago, KHCast said:

Ehhh most of those Id still apply to and consider AAA more than midshelf tbh, with the exception of Sega in certain situations and Hellblade (though Hellblade seems to be getting going AAA with its sequel). Yakuza is one of SEGA’s most profitable franchises, along with Sonic. Puyo Puyo is a smaller title but Idk if I would call it middle shelf. Hitman definitely is a big franchise for Square that has gotten multiple sequels, Platinum games works with AAA publishers and franchises frequently on their titles and sell them for full price often times, and Prey...well bethesda intentionally screwed over that game series and set it up to fail following its first title. I wouldn’t really consider that a good example, and even ignoring that, Bethesda certainly gave that series the AAA treatment with deluxe editions, collectors editions, full 60 dollar tags, I believe one of them had a season pass, etc. honestly, a lot of these examples of yours still indulged in AAA culture in one form or another I feel

 

 

AAA is defined by budget a marketing costs. The games I listed were lower budget and a lot of them were priced accordingly.

I specified IO because they went independent and downsized in 2017. Square enix dumped them for the Avengers deal and hasn't been funding the series since. They leveraged the engine they made with Hitman 1 to continue the series, but the cuts were so steep the second game had to drop cutscenes for a comic book style alternative. 

And just because a series is profitable doesn't mean it's AAA. Yakuza is notorious for reusing content between releases and was a modest success until recently. Sonic is most certainly not a AAA series anymore and hasn't been since they broke bank Sonic Boom(some would argue they scaled down even earlier than that.). If Puyo Puyo doesn't count as a low budget release I'm not really sure what does at that point. Is literally everything that has been turned into a franchise AAA to you? Because low budget games like Katamari Damacy from the PS2 era...did become franchise and received a lot of sequels. There was no period where publishers were just dropping arthouse shit without expecting any long term profit from it.

[KHCast]

21 minutes ago, Wraith said:

AAA is defined by budget a marketing costs

See that’s where we don’t see eye to eye. AAA is also a attitude and culture as well. Small games can still indulge in AAA bullshit. We Happy Few for example engaged in AAA bullshit, post Gearbox, with its season passes, deluxe editions, collectors edition, raised prices, etc. and became a AAA game. 

 

 

 

21 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Sonic is most certainly not a AAA series anymore and hasn't been since they broke bank Sonic Boom(some would argue they scaled down even earlier than that.)

Sonic is up there in with Mario in notoriety, and again is SEGA’s, a AAA studio’s, premier franchise spanning multiple entries, merch, mobile games, films, comics, etc. it is not some small game series that needs to be careful in its budgeting, as we’ve clearly seen, that series tends to stumble onto piles of money despite the failings. 

 

21 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Is literally everything that has been turned into a franchise AAA to you?

No, but it’s certainly a AAA mentality and expectation to turn everything into one if it’s to be considered viable or worth doing. Like how most executives of these companies (like EA and Activision) have stated. 
 

Doing sequels is fine and dandy, it’s when that becomes your measure of success that it becomes an issue.  “Can we make this into a sequel” is a common fucking attitude within the industry, that HAS killed off projects because big studios didn’t see the money in it because of assumptions. It’s like when they forced multiplayer into everything a few years back because in their eyes, if it didn’t have multiplayer, it wouldn’t be successful. Multiplayer is fine, and not automatically something AAA, but that attitude that it needs to be there, cheapens the experience and makes it feel more product than art 

[Wraith]

9 minutes ago, KHCast said:

See that’s where we don’t see eye to eye. AAA is also a attitude and culture as well. Small games can still indulge in AAA bullshit. We Happy Few for example engaged in AAA bullshit, with its season passes, deluxe editions, collectors edition, raised prices, etc. and became a AAA game. 

 

AAA literally does not mean "monetization schemes I dont like". It's been a signifier of a high budget since the late 90s. Under your own definition, 90% of video games including many from entirely independent developers would be AAA. If that's seriously what you think then we can just agree to disagree. 

 

 

[KHCast]

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

AAA literally does not mean "monetization schemes I dont like". It's been a signifier of a high budget since the late 90s. Under your own definition, 90% of video games including many from entirely independent developers would be AAA. If that's seriously what you think then we can just agree to disagree. 

There’s a reason people say “AAA culture” when they refer to shit business tactics and unsustainable growth within the industry.

Is (insert smaller game) on its own AAA? No. Does (insert smaller game) engage in AAA attitudes and culture? Yeah a bit. Does that effectively make said game feel a bit more cynical like it’s not confident of success on its own merits? Yeah a bit. Hellblade was able to stand on its own, as a brand new IP without any of said bullshit and be a success due to creative marketing, and budgeting. Hitman, fell prey for the longest time to square’s expectations and cynical trend chases (like making it episodic). I’m not that sure how it’s been since. Yakuza, as a product is fine, but repeatedly exists in the big time video game culture with its collectors editions, and merch, dlc, etc. 
 

The act of simply dropping a new franchise/title with none of that, with no prior expectations of sequels, or tons of DLC, within these companies, with none of that pressure, is rare. It can happen, we saw it with the Outerworlds recently, which only ever got a expansion pass I believe months later, no collectors edition, no multiple editions, no season pass, so excessive dlc, certainly no microtransactions, THAT is what I’d like to see more of. More titles like that, that don’t have to make compromises with AAA practices in order to come out and just be games that sell decently that are given reasonable sales expectations that don’t put pressure on the developers.  

[Wraith]

3 minutes ago, KHCast said:

There’s a reason people say “AAA culture” when they refer to shit business tactics and unsustainable growth within the industry.

Low budget games can use tactics from high budget ones. That doesn't suddenly increase their budget. 

You've had mid budget games staring you in the face all generation. They launched at full price, but they did that in prior generations. They're released with hope that they turn into a lucrative franchise or long term monetization scheme, but that was also the case in prior generations. They're still here and are worth acknowledging when we're given them because they're the only way for classic genres like platformers, turn based rpgs, and beat em ups to resurface. 

[KHCast]

17 minutes ago, Wraith said:

They're released with hope that they turn into a lucrative franchise or long term monetization scheme, but that was also the case in prior generations

Yeah Hellblade was definitely aiming to get big enough to put microtransactions in at some point in.
 

Sometimes, a developer just wants to make a game and, get this, share it with others cause games are an art form. Sure it’s a job, they gotta make money, but like, they were able to do that before without the compromises to the product. The goal isn’t always “sequel, sequel, ooooh trilogy” not every game wants to be Call of Duty, much like how not every film wants to be the MCU. If that’s all a company will see value in with these endeavors, that’s a problem. 

[Spin Slasher]

What, The Creators of Sonic the Hedgehog created Balan Wonderworld, I did not know that Fact!

Balan doesm't look like Nights but Still Interested. it looks like a Small Platformer

[knuckles20]

 

So we’re getting more human characters outside the first two kids. First time I saw the dolphin one it reminded me of that episode of King of the Hill.

 

[Guest]

I'm so hyped for this game!! I love 3D platformers, can't get enough of them. And although I'm not a huge RPG fan, I know Square Enix is a legendary name in that field, so I have at least decent expectations for this.

That said, it does seem a bit... Mario Odyssey-ish.

[Piko]

Just played the demo and it...sure is a game! Not the worst thing I’ve played but I’m very disappointed.

[Guest]

It's definitely my type of game. I'm still gonna buy it regardless of what reviews say.

[Sonicka]

I mean... huh, ok. 

From watching some video play throughs I like some of the ideas on display (the out rolling world is cool for Example).

But my word does the overall design of the levels and platforming look and feel incredibly cheap (and this is from the PS5 build), it is like it’s from a bygone era in terms of design philosophy and I dread to think how this runs on lesser platforms... and the switch. 

A shame that the hat master guy is also seemingly relegated to QTE’s in his sections - for whatever reason I thought he was gunna be the main playable character rather than the kids. 

I’m gunna give the demo a go regardless - but my expectations dropped a hell of a lot to what I thought this game was gunna be (and even then it wasn’t that high). Kinda strikes me as a lesser Billy Hatcher/Nights sort of hybrid with very big riffs on the Mario power-up variety. We’ll see I suppose! 

[azoo]

Just played the Xbox X/S demo. After playing it, all I can say is that it's okay.

It's not really anything to write home about, but its a decent (if not kinda dull) romp? The game suffers from Naka making it far too basic to control to accommodate for the sheer amount of outfits you get, and could have really used a secondary action; whether that was an attack or even simply a run button idk.

It also just has a lot of weird QoL oddities (switching outfits is sluggish, control and costume options that you feel should be in the pause menus but aren't), but it's not like anything horrible. That said, not really anything great either.

I think the amount you'll enjoy this game depends on how okay you are with Naka, a man known for creating/co-creating several IPs with interesting mechanics, kinda dropping the ball and getting lost in the sauce of making something "simple". If you have your expectations high, you're bound to be burned (I have some friends that HAAATE this game lol). But the game is also like, really really inoffensive and I can't find it in me to be genuinely mad about it. Unless we're gonna bring up how Oshima is carrying the whole fucking game's quality on his back, Jesus Christ the presentation at times is a league beyond it's surroundings.

Anyways yeah I wouldn't recommend spending $60 on this. $30-35? Maaaybe; either way the game as-is just doesn't feel like it justifies the price tag it'll have on release.