Demoted Protagonists.

[Kuzu]

So remember how after Sonic Adventure 1, the series essentially started to focus on other protagonist characters with their own motivations and goals, at times to the point overshadowing Sonic's own role as the protagonist? Shadow is kind of self-explanatory, Blaze shares the spot with Sonic in Rush, but even then the bulk of the character growth is on her end than Sonic's, and Sonic is barely a factor in Silver's story in 06.

So obviously things have changed significantly since then, with these character essentially being booted to the supporting cast pile of stagnation and things have shifted back to Sonic. 

 

I'm mainly focused on those specific characters since they're the ones this point of contention seems to revolve around, as almost every other supporting character more or less get ignored in the crossfire. So how do you reconcile these characters into a new, supportive role now that their stint as the protagonist is over with (and might not be in that position again any time soon).

[Liars]

I don't know, it's not easy to put these characters in the spotlight without overshadowing Sonic much. Some of the characters, like Knuckles, Blaze, Rouge, Shadow, etc kinda require an expecific setting to be properly introduced in the story, so I think you can either do like in Sonic Adventure and have one story that overlap for each character or make a solo game out of one of them (I'd love to see a Blaze solo game).

[Sega DogTagz]

I wouldn't go as far as to call Shadow demoted. Much of the story often runs through him - or rather the plot has to take wild excursions to prevent him from commandeering it. In Rise of Lyric, Shadow had to be removed from the timeline for a bit to stop from hijacking a plot that had nothing to do with him. In Forces, he was the driving force behind Infinite and he had to more or less be written out of the war following Sonic's capture to stop from dominating that narrative as well. Between that and Episode Shadow, Forces was about Shadow's exploits almost as much as it was Sonic's. 

Its still very clear that Shadow, in a narrative sense, is still treated as a primary character. Its almost to the point where he has to be accounted for at all times, lest it creates a plot hole. Its not like Knuckles or Amy or even Tails. If Shadow is present in the story, he likely has some major, irreplaceable impact on it. He can never just be there. 

 

Blaze is a little less complicated because we've already seen her be effective in a supportive role. She played off of Silver well in 06, and was extremely effective as a compliment to Sonic in the Rush series, balancing out his shortcomings. In Black Knight, Percival was a fine voice of reason in the little bit of screen time they got and ever since her poise and keen intuition has been a boon to her character, allowing her to interact well with Characters like Vector and Cream. Blaze fits into the supportive cast well thanks to her synergy with Sonic and the combination of traits that helps her stand out alongside Sonic's other friends. 

Her largest problem, to me at least, stems from her ability level and overall popularity. As an extremely accomplished fighter, speedster, sharp insights, royal lineage, access to super form, ect.  its harder for Blaze to be taken as a second fiddle to anyone. In short doses, it can be done, but over the course of a longer narrative it may become difficult for Blaze to be established as a support character to any but the small handful of characters that have more ability/clout than she does. As such, her future may be better suited to more of a co-lead role than a pure support character. 

[BadBehavior]

I have to wonder why we need to worry about Sonic being 1-upped by his own cast. Not every Mario game has Mario in it. People aren't whining and whinging about Luigi's mansion, demanding that they play as the more popular guy.

[Kuzu]

58 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

I wouldn't go as far as to call Shadow demoted. Much of the story often runs through him - or rather the plot has to take wild excursions to prevent him from commandeering it. In Rise of Lyric, Shadow had to be removed from the timeline for a bit to stop from hijacking a plot that had nothing to do with him. In Forces, he was the driving force behind Infinite and he had to more or less be written out of the war following Sonic's capture to stop from dominating that narrative as well. Between that and Episode Shadow, Forces was about Shadow's exploits almost as much as it was Sonic's. 

Its still very clear that Shadow, in a narrative sense, is still treated as a primary character. Its almost to the point where he has to be accounted for at all times, lest it creates a plot hole. Its not like Knuckles or Amy or even Tails. If Shadow is present in the story, he likely has some major, irreplaceable impact on it. He can never just be there. 

To some extent, that is true. But he played a supportive role in the DS version of Colors, and no attention was really called to it. But I do recall that he did something specifically offscreen to help Sonic & Tails, so I get what you mean. It feels kind of jarring though, because they have to go so far out of their way of liming his presence in the plot, lest he overtakes it. He feels so uneven in terms of character usage, because his personality is so fiercely independent and headstrong,

58 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Blaze is a little less complicated because we've already seen her be effective in a supportive role. She played off of Silver well in 06, and was extremely effective as a compliment to Sonic in the Rush series, balancing out his shortcomings. In Black Knight, Percival was a fine voice of reason in the little bit of screen time they got and ever since her poise and keen intuition has been a boon to her character, allowing her to interact well with Characters like Vector and Cream. Blaze fits into the supportive cast well thanks to her synergy with Sonic and the combination of traits that helps her stand out alongside Sonic's other friends. 

Her largest problem, to me at least, stems from her ability level and overall popularity. As an extremely accomplished fighter, speedster, sharp insights, royal lineage, access to super form, ect.  its harder for Blaze to be taken as a second fiddle to anyone. In short doses, it can be done, but over the course of a longer narrative it may become difficult for Blaze to be established as a support character to any but the small handful of characters that have more ability/clout than she does. As such, her future may be better suited to more of a co-lead role than a pure support character. 

Yea, this is exactly what I mean; personality wise, you're right on the money since she actually play off pretty well with a lot of characters to the point where it isn't as jarring as it would be for someone like Shadow. But in terms of overall competence, she's about as close to Sonic as you can get. On top of that, she still has her own duties to go over. 

 

I could see Blaze fitting more in games where they are specifically about things like her role as Princess in her kingdom, but aside from that, there's nothing else about her that justifies her being in a co-lead role but her role is way too potentially influential to just be a supportive one from now on. 

17 minutes ago, BadBehavior said:

I have to wonder why we need to worry about Sonic being 1-upped by his own cast. Not every Mario game has Mario in it. People aren't whining and whinging about Luigi's mansion, demanding that they play as the more popular guy.

There's a difference though, Luigi's Mansion actually IS about Luigi, he's the main character of that series and Mario is in a secondary role. With exception of a few games, almost every game in the series is about Sonic, but more often than not, the focus of the game shift away from him to someone else. It's most apparent in games like 06 and Rivals games where Sonic has the least amount of plot connections, while Shadow is the one who is actually moving the plot along and confronting the real threats. 

 

That's what I mean. 

[DabigRG]

I'd been thinking about this general thing on and off for a while.

Basically, the Adventure is responsible for most of the recurring cast and each of their followings because with a few exceptions, they generally framed the story(even more than the marketing sometimes) around those characters in selling who they are and showing what they do to effect that particular story. It's also responsible for nailing down and/or expanding on at least half of the [considered] carryovers from the Classics.

 

Just to acknowledge it because someone else will get outrageous anyway, the newer characters(and some of the older ones, to be fair) generally don't get as much of a real emphasis or effort put into them and that's part of why they tend not to resonate as much nor even feel like their presence has any weight in the long term.

[DabigRG]

2 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

I wouldn't go as far as to call Shadow demoted. Much of the story often runs through him - or rather the plot has to take wild excursions to prevent him from commandeering it. In Rise of Lyric, Shadow had to be removed from the timeline for a bit to stop from hijacking a plot that had nothing to do with him. In Forces, he was the driving force behind Infinite and he had to more or less be written out of the war following Sonic's capture to stop from dominating that narrative as well. Between that and Episode Shadow, Forces was about Shadow's exploits almost as much as it was Sonic's. 

 

Eh, those two were more cases of them shoehorning Shadow in because of his popularity more than actually being relevant to those games.

[Zaysho]

I admit I might have thought differently before but these days I don't really care that characters like Shadow, Blaze, Silver, Knuckles, et al aren't in "lead" positions in the series. They had their big moments and it's okay for the games to not force them into the limelight all the time or use them in smaller roles. And I'm fond of most of these characters (Knuckles and Shadow in particular), but I can accept they're not meant to always be there. My only issue is that the writing staff on the games are hacks and don't know how, or don't care, to use any of the characters as supporting members effectively or writing scenarios where they could be in lead roles. Everyone's just kept around for fanservice and end up crowding each other out.

The only suggestion to fixing that is to use characters sparingly and actually rotate them out every once in a while so they can be used better and actually feel important when they show up but I don't necessarily expect things to change like that.

[DabigRG]

2 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

 

 

Blaze is a little less complicated because we've already seen her be effective in a supportive role. She played off of Silver well in 06, and was extremely effective as a compliment to Sonic in the Rush series, balancing out his shortcomings. In Black Knight, Percival was a fine voice of reason in the little bit of screen time they got and ever since her poise and keen intuition has been a boon to her character, allowing her to interact well with Characters like Vector and Cream. Blaze fits into the supportive cast well thanks to her synergy with Sonic and the combination of traits that helps her stand out alongside Sonic's other friends. 

Her largest problem, to me at least, stems from her ability level and overall popularity. As an extremely accomplished fighter, speedster, sharp insights, royal lineage, access to super form, ect.  its harder for Blaze to be taken as a second fiddle to anyone. In short doses, it can be done, but over the course of a longer narrative it may become difficult for Blaze to be established as a support character to any but the small handful of characters that have more ability/clout than she does. As such, her future may be better suited to more of a co-lead role than a pure support character. 

Honestly, I think they are just smarter with Blaze than they were otherwise. She's hails from another dimension with her responsibilities being there as well and so when the game was over, she just went back home and the majority of subsequent appearances are either explicitly there or have her travel to Sonic's for whatever reason.

1 hour ago, BadBehavior said:

I have to wonder why we need to worry about Sonic being 1-upped by his own cast. Not every Mario game has Mario in it. People aren't whining and whinging about Luigi's mansion, demanding that they play as the more popular guy.

Because Sonic is more narrative driven and it happened so long that there are jokes cracked about how irrelevant/weak he is compared to the rest of his cast. Luigi's Mansion was a one time thing and almost every game that doesn't explicitly star Wario or DK has Mario front and center.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

To some extent, that is true. But he played a supportive role in the DS version of Colors, and no attention was really called to it. But I do recall that he did something specifically offscreen to help Sonic & Tails, so I get what you mean. It feels kind of jarring though, because they have to go so far out of their way of liming his presence in the plot, lest he overtakes it. He feels so uneven in terms of character usage, because his personality is so fiercely independent and headstrong,

Probably it's not the primary version of the game or at least the one most people played. Plus, literally every other character that also wasn't in the other version was something similar.

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Yea, this is exactly what I mean; personality wise, you're right on the money since she actually play off pretty well with a lot of characters to the point where it isn't as jarring as it would be for someone like Shadow. But in terms of overall competence, she's about as close to Sonic as you can get. On top of that, she still has her own duties to go over. 

. 

 

[thumbs13]

The secret is to give a reason as to why they're not doing more. The best example is probably from the only game where Sonic wasn't supposed to be the focus. Shadow the Hedgehog has Sonic off fighting aliens by himself, so he's not around as much as he could be, and we're given an explicit reason as to why he doesn't step in at the end with the nerve gas. I guess another good example would be Colors DS where everyone is again doing their own thing and thus has a reason not to be stopping Eggman.
Most games have everyone just cheer on the sidelines and that's lame and shouldn't be done, but if you can give good reasons for characters not to take over a game, that's fine.

[E-122-Psi]

The general problem with how they introduced characters in the early 3D was their lack of moderation and generally capsizing on their own ambition.

The original Sonic games brought in new characters, but they were utilised in a way that didn't interfere with Sonic's role, they were selectable characters in their own campaign and the storyline and universe, while often centred around their homeworld, still tended to revolve around the established Sonic universe. Knuckles' homeworld and lore still feels cohesive with the previous two games.

Also take note of development care taken into Knuckles' debut game. While making a large game revolved around three playable characters with different campaigns hindered development, they took the pragmatic approach of dividing the game into two separate releases, using the second to push Knuckles' playability while still ensuring their would be a full polished game (if anything this worked even MORE in Knuckles' favour since the lock-on technology to resolve this allowed him to be playable in EARLIER TITLES as a gimmick as well).

Later games were NOT as careful in balancing new characters.

Chaotix was clearly a game that collapsed under its own weight. Six new characters with different playstyles overflowed time on mechanics and the rest of the game unfinished and not very memorable. Unlike S3K their was no circumventing approach made to this.

Sonic Adventure kept the same optional approach to some level (besides the final secret campaign) but similarly suffered under its limited development time.  Also while it still kept its toe dipped in the classic style such as continuing Knuckles' lore building, it was the start of an ensuing 'identity crisis' with each game giving the whole Sonic universe a makeover and altering its aesthetics and lore to the point Sonic himself felt like an alien in his own world.

Sonic Adventure 2, Shadow and Next Gen exacerbated this ten fold with the introduction of anti heroes like Shadow, which strived to give the series a 'grittier' air to befit them more than the original characters, with Sonic vs Eggman slowly becoming an irrelevant side attraction.

It also lost its moderation gameplay wise, with the player now forced to switch between characters between levels or even MID-LEVEL. These new additions were no longer an extra addition but an OBLIGATION forced onto the player whether they wanted them or not. Even worse as they added more and more each time and it blatantly cutting development even worse than before. Next Gen had a non-stop roulette at least nine new playable characters, all with differing mechanics that sometimes didn't even feel remotely similar to Sonic's, in a game that rather expected was barely finished to the point bordering on unplayable.

Some will say that this slips even into adaptations as well. That the SatAm/Archie continuity was built primarily around Sally's lore than Sonic's and eventually collapsed in the pure convolution of new additions and lore that was often barely even connected to the original cast. Sonic X was also more a POV story for Chris and his animal friends. There's often a feeling that Sonic himself was tacked onto these premises.

The problem isn't that the creative team use their supporting cast heavily, but that they don't know what moderation and development goes into it, that these new additions need to be built to improve the already existing franchise and games, not the latter being built around them in a slapdash way.

[Kuzu]

I don't think you're being very fair with that assessment, because it's ignoring a lot of the context surrounding things at the time and only speaking really in hindsight. 

The franchise hasn't really taken off yet in 1994, and developmental costs were nowhere near as expensive as they were nowadays. Those risky business endeavors weren't as risky back then, and expectations were still pretty low since Sonic's popularity was still pretty high at that point. 

Things only really start going south when Sega had to transition to 3D, when it was clear that they had no real understanding of it. But if they didn't have SOME gimmick, the industry would leave them behind; 3D was the future whether they liked it or not. The 32X was a failed attempt at keeping the Genesis relevant long after it's shelf life had ceased, and Chaotix' gimmicks were some way at trying to salvage a sinking ship.

After basically skipping the entire next generation, their 3D debut NEEDED to be special and if you look at other successful games at the time (DK64, Crash 3, MGS etc etc) they all had things that Sonic Adventure tried to do. Expectations were high, people wanted fancier graphics, more playable characters, and more ambitious stories. For better or worse, Sonic Adventure HAD to be ambitious and they couldn't afford to be moderate. 

And Sonic Adventure 2 just continued that trend; it was the Dreamcast's swan song, and the team wanted to go out on a high note before they went third party. I don't think it's fair to say that they should have been more moderate and considerate when they were literally in danger of going out of business.  And even then, they succeeded because when Adventure 2 was ported to Gamecube, it was considered the best-selling non-Nintendo game on the console.

 

 

If you're somebody that hated how things shifted away from the classics towards a direction you didn't care for, fine. But if Sega DIDN'T do that, Sonic likely wouldn't have made it past the 6th Generation. You can put all of the blame you want for Shadow, Silver and the like for "stealing Sonic's thunder", but like it or not, Shadow kind of defined an entire generation and breathed new life back into the series at the time. Regardless of what ended up happening, that was a GOOD thing. Especially since there really hasn't been a character in the series as series defining as Shadow to date, as nothing from the last ten years has really managed to be standout in the same way.

5 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Eh, those two were more cases of them shoehorning Shadow in because of his popularity more than actually being relevant to those games.

True, but I feel the point is that Shadow has just as much, if not more, clout as most of the classic character and Sega still considers him a primary character. But are also reluctant to use him out of fear of people turning on him again like they did before. 

[Diogenes]

The way I see it, the problem with these "protagonist"-type characters is that they were designed as the centerpiece of one specific story without considering how they'd work in the long term, which became a problem when they proved popular enough to continue using, and they fumbled moving the characters forward.

Like I said in the statuses one of the most basic questions you can ask about a character is "what do they want?". That's fairly easy to answer for most other characters; Tails is Sonic's best friend and Sonic is his hero so he wants to help him out and earn/maintain his respect, Amy's got a crush on Sonic so she wants the big blue D senpai to notice her, the Chaotix want to get paid, Big wants to fish with his pal Froggy, etc. These are meant as ongoing motivations for the characters, not problems meant to be solved or, usually, the focal point of a game's story. But with these protagonist-types, their motivation is fundamentally tied to the story of their introductory game, and by concluding the story they also conclude their motivation. And that's fine on its own, bringing a character's personal business to a satisfying conclusion, but it leaves a big fuckin' hole that needs to be filled if you want to bring them back. And that's where things have fallen apart, because their solutions have either been panicked flailing ("Shadow's back...with amnesia! And maybe he's a robot! No wait he's an alien! But now he's thrown away his past so now he's, uh...???") or basically ignoring it and just having the characters show up anyway.

So that's the key issue. Whether they'll transition into being supporting characters in some form or continue being more protagonist-like, either can work, but they need to get a proper grasp on who these characters really are, what they want, where they're going. Stuff that should be real basic but, y'know...this series, and all.

[Kuzu]

32 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

The way I see it, the problem with these "protagonist"-type characters is that they were designed as the centerpiece of one specific story without considering how they'd work in the long term, which became a problem when they proved popular enough to continue using, and they fumbled moving the characters forward.

Like I said in the statuses one of the most basic questions you can ask about a character is "what do they want?". That's fairly easy to answer for most other characters; Tails is Sonic's best friend and Sonic is his hero so he wants to help him out and earn/maintain his respect, Amy's got a crush on Sonic so she wants the big blue D senpai to notice her, the Chaotix want to get paid, Big wants to fish with his pal Froggy, etc. These are meant as ongoing motivations for the characters, not problems meant to be solved or, usually, the focal point of a game's story. But with these protagonist-types, their motivation is fundamentally tied to the story of their introductory game, and by concluding the story they also conclude their motivation. And that's fine on its own, bringing a character's personal business to a satisfying conclusion, but it leaves a big fuckin' hole that needs to be filled if you want to bring them back. And that's where things have fallen apart, because their solutions have either been panicked flailing ("Shadow's back...with amnesia! And maybe he's a robot! No wait he's an alien! But now he's thrown away his past so now he's, uh...???") or basically ignoring it and just having the characters show up anyway.

So that's the key issue. Whether they'll transition into being supporting characters in some form or continue being more protagonist-like, either can work, but they need to get a proper grasp on who these characters really are, what they want, where they're going. Stuff that should be real basic but, y'know...this series, and all.

 

I feel like the simpler a character's goal is, the easier it is to utilize them, but it's harder for them to transition beyond that supportive role. Tails and Amy have been around since forever, but have never moved beyond being Sonic's sidekicks despite that, and such, there's much less intrigue around them.

The protagonist-type characters are undoubtedly the more popular characters because of  their stories, but aren't sustainable for the long-term. So if you make their goals simpler ala Tails and Amy, you make them easier to use in theory, but you also potential lose what made people like them.

 

For instance, Shadow's goals and motivations have moved on from his initial character arc and is mostly just...a grumpy rival that wants to fight Sonic; it certainly makes him easier to utilize, because he just wants to fight Sonic, but it's also questionable as hell...because it's in stark contrast to what the series established his character as. 

[BadBehavior]

Another thing is, Sonic 06 was like 15 years ago at this point, and we've only just got a non sonic player character in Forces (even if he played 95% exactly like Modern Sonic), so i'm not sure why people are worried about it happening again. Judging by probability, Sega would probably sell Sonic to Konami before they made another game where Silver is playable.

[DabigRG]

I didn't comment on Shadow in much detail before to keep from getting too cluttery, but I guess I'll say something now.

Shadow in general is the biggest offender of this problem because everything about him commanded so much mystery/history, moral ambiguity, and shift in perspective compared to just about every other character; SA2 is such a standout game for better or worse both due to being the first anniversary title and also because his emblem status colored so much of what that game was. He was conceived as a Dark Sonic who looked like him and do just a lot of what he could, but was very different in personality; add on the expanded Chaos Emeralds abilities he was brought to the table, his status as an artificial being created to be The Ultimate, all of the lore that crafted around that, and finally a Super Form(which Adventure onwards retconned into something only Sonic could do) and you've got a character that is certainly compelling, but also overpowers everything with his very presence.

I touched on this earlier, but this is the Ur example of the double-edged sword that these stories: they alongside the stuff that defines them lead a bigger impact/legacy, but they can also be blackholes in the long-term if you're not careful. And you know what, a hallmark of those big standalone tales as well as antiviilains who go through a redemption was indeed utilized in SA2: he died at the end. Because the story was very manufactured by him(albeit within relative reason) and this was to be his tenure in the series, they were able to go all out and have him go out in a big bang, a satisfying end to that installment that paved the way for the series to continue on. And just to address that one claim from Iuzuka that he always wanted Shadow to survive to have his own series, the keyword there are still "his own series."

But because they decided to bring him back into the series partway through Heroes development, that bigness became both a part of the attraction for many and the retroactive seal that the damage had been done. Now every other again had to accommodate the fact that Shadow the hedgehog was on the scene and that largely dictated what the plot of the story involved. Considerable darkness with edgy themes, complicated mystery leading into massive stakes, and dividing the focus to really sell the next big thing: these were all hallmarks of Shadow's heydey and it just so happens that that's what comprised the bulk of Sonic's mainline for half a decade and that time period somewhat understandably defines so much of what people associate with Sonic overall.

And what those associations bleed over into is how Sonic himself got compromised and displaced in half of his games. See with Shadow on the scene, the focal point of the story tended to revolve around(Black Doom, Mephiles) or appeal to him(Emerl?, Dr. Nega), leaving Sonic himself to be the basic part of experience or even helm the weakest part of the plot. And that accommodation for his inclusion eventually cracked down when the bottom fell out, as nearly every appearance since either shoehorns him in an alright manner(Generations, Forces) or just flounders due to Sega's [new] vision of his character just not working (Free Riders, TSR). Now part of that is the simple matter of how the games frankly can't seem to make a effectively cohesive story anymore, but even that is partially a reflection of the issues.

 

As I said earlier, Blaze--and honestly Silver--feels like just a smarter take on that in comparison because, for whatever reason or conditions there were at that interim time, they understood how to make her the heroine of her own story while having that story and characterization actually complement that of Sonic without eclipsing it. And though she was never actually treated as a big deal for whatever reason and had that standalone nature incorporated into her by design, you'll notice that she tends to be one of the better characters whenever she does get spotlight. Moderation very much permeates her presence, honestly.

And since I ended up mentioning him, I'll touch in Silver briefly. While I don't necessarily agree that it was the case, lax's take that Silver was another attempt at Shadow does have some merit in how he was initially presented and in bits of his subsequent appearances. His presence in stories tends to be given a degree of reverance, but the thing is it was generally done in yielding tandem with Shadow himself and in a more subtle/measured mannerothewise. And while his place in the series is similarly a bit of confusion, his characterization is generally pretty fine; it might be because his character was always meant to be more vulnerable in comparison and he debuted right when things got infamous, but they clearly understood that he shouldn't be untouchable and put more effort into having him be relatable. His lovable dork shitck largely festered within Archie, but definitely made its way into the game's proper and his revelance to the story is mostly understated in its importance while still generally meaning something. If that doesn't go to show that both Sonic Team and the fans cherish him for what little he is, I don't know what does. 

11 hours ago, Diogenes said:

The way I see it, the problem with these "protagonist"-type characters is that they were designed as the centerpiece of one specific story without considering how they'd work in the long term, which became a problem when they proved popular enough to continue using, and they fumbled moving the characters forward.

Like I said in the statuses one of the most basic questions you can ask about a character is "what do they want?". That's fairly easy to answer for most other characters; Tails is Sonic's best friend and Sonic is his hero so he wants to help him out and earn/maintain his respect, Amy's got a crush on Sonic so she wants the big blue D senpai to notice her, the Chaotix want to get paid, Big wants to fish with his pal Froggy, etc. These are meant as ongoing motivations for the characters, not problems meant to be solved or, usually, the focal point of a game's story. But with these protagonist-types, their motivation is fundamentally tied to the story of their introductory game, and by concluding the story they also conclude their motivation. And that's fine on its own, bringing a character's personal business to a satisfying conclusion, but it leaves a big fuckin' hole that needs to be filled if you want to bring them back. And that's where things have fallen apart, because their solutions have either been panicked flailing ("Shadow's back...with amnesia! And maybe he's a robot! No wait he's an alien! But now he's thrown away his past so now he's, uh...???") or basically ignoring it and just having the characters show up anyway.

So that's the key issue. Whether they'll transition into being supporting characters in some form or continue being more protagonist-like, either can work, but they need to get a proper grasp on who these characters really are, what they want, where they're going. Stuff that should be real basic but, y'know...this series, and all.

Pretty much.

7 hours ago, peliukun said:

luigi's mansion isn't a 1 time thing when there's 3 games in it

Oh, that may be true, but don't forget that context is everything.

Dark Moon came out in 2013 I think during the year of Luigi and it got made because the first game was such a well liked experience nearly a decade ago and because Miyamoto said "I wanna make another one." Luigi's Mansion was an island a sea of Mario faced games, which includes the spinoffs with the rest of the cast and is occasionally mixed with DK, Yoshi, & Wario's side games and the equally billed Mario & Luigi games.

If they said it was a one time thing, that is incorrect, but the overview of their statement still has merit.

EDIT: Oh, hehehe, that was me.

[E-122-Psi]

13 hours ago, Kuzu said:

After basically skipping the entire next generation, their 3D debut NEEDED to be special and if you look at other successful games at the time (DK64, Crash 3, MGS etc etc) they all had things that Sonic Adventure tried to do. Expectations were high, people wanted fancier graphics, more playable characters, and more ambitious stories. For better or worse, Sonic Adventure HAD to be ambitious and they couldn't afford to be moderate. 

And Sonic Adventure 2 just continued that trend; it was the Dreamcast's swan song, and the team wanted to go out on a high note before they went third party. I don't think it's fair to say that they should have been more moderate and considerate when they were literally in danger of going out of business.  And even then, they succeeded because when Adventure 2 was ported to Gamecube, it was considered the best-selling non-Nintendo game on the console.

I get that and I can forgive the first Sonic Adventure's level of ambition, especially since I think it was still trying to maintain some level of spirit and cohesiveness within all its bizarre variation of ideas. It did start a lot of infamous trends (realistic human settings, monster of the day outshining Eggman, too many characters, not enough development time) but still had some level of execution that tried to keep it true to the spirit of the earlier Sonic games.

But the thing is a sequel is usually meant to be a wiser assessment and refinement of what made the first instalment work, while Sonic Adventure 2 was very much a step forward, step backward. They streamlined to the more Sonic-like gameplay styles, and yet altered them to feel EVEN LESS like Sonic gameplay and took away the option to switch between, meaning a very jarring gameplay roulette was forced onto the player against their will. This effect got worse with each sequel, this overemphasis on making new very divergent characters and forcing them onto the player every chance they got, and even forgetting the fine tuning they DID realise to do in Sonic Adventure 2.

Ultimately the problem was the developers never really learned from the mistakes they made in the first Sonic Adventure and in many areas forgot the cases of moderation and quality they made in the same game. In reality they didn't even after this, they just threw the baby out with the bathwater, blaming their failures on the characters being unpopular, rather than their own overindulgence and poor handling of them.

[Kuzu]

38 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I get that and I can forgive the first Sonic Adventure's level of ambition, especially since I think it was still trying to maintain some level of spirit and cohesiveness within all its bizarre variation of ideas. It did start a lot of infamous trends (realistic human settings, monster of the day outshining Eggman, too many characters, not enough development time) but still had some level of execution that tried to keep it true to the spirit of the earlier Sonic games.

But the thing is a sequel is usually meant to be a wiser assessment and refinement of what made the first instalment work, while Sonic Adventure 2 was very much a step forward, step backward. They streamlined to the more Sonic-like gameplay styles, and yet altered them to feel EVEN LESS like Sonic gameplay and took away the option to switch between, meaning a very jarring gameplay roulette was forced onto the player against their will. This effect got worse with each sequel, this overemphasis on making new very divergent characters and forcing them onto the player every chance they got, and even forgetting the fine tuning they DID realise to do in Sonic Adventure 2.

Ultimately the problem was the developers never really learned from the mistakes they made in the first Sonic Adventure and in many areas forgot the cases of moderation and quality they made in the same game. In reality they didn't even after this, they just threw the baby out with the bathwater, blaming their failures on the characters being unpopular, rather than their own overindulgence and poor handling of them.

Even so, blaming earlier games for the problems of the later ones is only done in hindsight; do the problems of the later games just suddenly invalidate what came before? It's like how people suddenly decided that Colors and Generations were terrible games because Forces was bad, that type of thinking runs on a fallacy.

Sequels after Sonic Adventure 2 do not invalidate the popularity of the game at the time. If those problems really were as big as you're making them out to be, the game would have never been as popular as it was. I have no doubt that the game was pretty divisive to begin with because of all of the changes from SA1, but it didn't stop the game from being just as popular as it's predecessor. 

If you're gonna judge those games, judge them on their own merits of poor quality and not blame the idea itself. That type of attitude is exactly why they threw out the baby and bathwater, because everyone just started to scapegoat all of those things and assumed that was the problem.

[Shadow Chaos Control]

On 8/14/2020 at 9:56 AM, Kuzu said:

 So remember how after Sonic Adventure 1, the series essentially started to focus on other protagonist characters with their own motivations and goals, at times to the point overshadowing Sonic's own role as the protagonist? Shadow is kind of self-explanatory, Blaze shares the spot with Sonic in Rush, but even then the bulk of the character growth is on her end than Sonic's, and Sonic is barely a factor in Silver's story in 06.

So obviously things have changed significantly since then, with these character essentially being booted to the supporting cast pile of stagnation and things have shifted back to Sonic. 

 

I'm mainly focused on those specific characters since they're the ones this point of contention seems to revolve around, as almost every other supporting character more or less get ignored in the crossfire. So how do you reconcile these characters into a new, supportive role now that their stint as the protagonist is over with (and might not be in that position again any time soon).

I think this is a natural progression, as new characters emerge they get emphasis and more development. 

Sonic, save for the 2020 film, has stayed almost unchanged. He spunky jokester with attitude and speed, but he doesn’t evolve much. I’d say Shadow, Silver, and from ehat you shared of Blaze are truer protagonists, because they change.