Rally 4 Sally

[E-122-Psi]

28 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

The reason isn’t because their isn’t enough room—people have been spouting that load of bullshit since 2006 as well, and it makes my eyes roll that folks are still making this excuse damn well 16 years later to the same extent as the epithet of “Shadow should’ve stayed dead.” Their could be any number of reasons why we didn’t see these characters in the games: time constraints, uncertain placement of roles, or simply because they didn’t think to add them and were more interested in promoting something else, or general incompetence. We could make a list of reasons until the cows come home, but “there’s no room” is one of them in this day and age.

”There’s no room” was never an excuse when they somehow managed to fit 12 characters in Heroes back in 2004, and it’s especially no excuse in this day and age when things progress to the point where games have been able to fit well over 30+ characters in one game and still add more.

I don't think the claim isn't without a point. You can't always put LOADS AND LOADS characters into a story and make it work fluidly. Sometimes plots work better streamlining the cast.

Heroes is a questionable case of making it work since they relied heavily on a team gimmick dumbing it all down into four separate gameplays (a mechanic the fanbase is still divided whether it actually worked or not) while Next Gen's attempts to keep nearly all the big names in focus took its toll on development and plot focus, leading half the characters to be shoehorned extras with unpolished mechanics. Hell some argue that was an issue since Sonic Adventure 1. That game at least had loads of playable characters as the core appeal, but I don't think it worked having multiple games afterwards trying to follow on from that ten fold, especially when it shown its downsides.

Solo Sonic this whole time has definitely been an oversimplification, but there are indeed points to me where it works to NOT try and cram every noteworthy character into every nook and cranny possible and just keep things simple. Many see three or four playables as the happy balance for example, and you can get better story focus on them by not polluting the plot with hundreds of other characters. This is why I think SEGA has walked itself into a problem since it established so many characters designed as MAIN characters and are expected to make obligatory appearances as a regular occurrence.

Hell this was a downfall even within the Freedom Fighters. Spotlight focus was uneven as hell in SatAm, with the writers only really liking the dynamic of Sonic/Sally/Antoine while Bunnie and Rotor and most supporting characters often felt superfluous. Archie did make attempts at managing a large cast but ultimately it was still an issue, with the writers relying on extra branches like Sonic Universe/Knuckles spin off comics to give them focus and even then them often resorting to streamlining the cast (Ian more or less committed genocide to dispose of a lot of unnecessary cast members). Archie also has the benefit of a format where everyone is a unified unit against the villain so are working as a group most of the time, while the games have only really used that structure once, often preferring a more individual character driven format when using the supporting cast.

[Guest]

How I see things should work, and this is even without Sally and everyone returning (I hope they do! Please do! XD ) is that for each game, only the characters that have anything to do with the story should be in and/or playable. For instance, if the story is developing, say, Amy as a character, there's no point suddenly having Shadow or someone suddenly pop out of nowhere, say a one-liner to her, then peace out. It's kinda pointless. Far better to have them appear only when the story calls for it. Again, going back to the old spin off titles, like Tails adventure, there were references to Sonic, Knuckles, even Nack I believe, but they didn't physically appear in game. That's because they weren't needed. This was Tails' moment to shine! 

Little nods to other characters like that, or like like a poster advertising the Chaotix agency for example would be fine. They're not in the story, but little nods to them and other characters and places could help the world seem fleshed out and lived in. Have characters mention them, but if they're not needed, no need for them to appear right?

So, for the freedom fighters, like Sally, they could appear in a game, whether main title or spin off, and be very much involved. Playable, crucial to the plot, etc. In that game that is. Going forward, they would be used as needed. If so, put them in, and have fun!. If not though, let them sit it out for now. Maybe quick cameos like rallying posters for the freedom fighters (or resistance I guess XD ) or phone calls or something, but other than that?  Again, no need for them to be the story if they're not called for. This is my opinion anyway.  I hope I managed to say what I meant lol!

Edited August 31, 2020 by A Random Villager
Clearing up some stuff

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

44 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I don't think the claim isn't without a point. You can't always put LOADS AND LOADS characters into a story and make it work fluidly. Sometimes plots work better streamlining the cast.

First off, we’re not even talking about story, just the general presence of the characters.

But for the sake of argument, let’s say we were: that’s still not true either.

You can certainly put “loads and loads” of characters in a story and make it work fluidly when you give it the right scale, pacing, and narrative focus if you plan it accordingly—that’s why Worlds Collide worked having well over 30 different characters in a story that was planned out and focused, and why Worlds Unite failed because it was more interested in being a fan service of Sega and Capcom franchises than actually being a cohesive story. And I hate Unite like the devil, but it absolutely could’ve worked had they planned it better with more issues instead of cramming everything in 12 and not put it in the middle of an already ongoing story.

Quote

Heroes is a questionable case of making it work since they relied heavily on a team gimmick dumbing it all down into four separate gameplays (a mechanic the fanbase is still divided whether it actually worked or not) while Next Gen's attempts to keep nearly all the big names in focus took its toll on development and plot focus, leading half the characters to be shoehorned extras with unpolished mechanics. Hell some argue that was an issue since Sonic Adventure 1. That game at least had loads of playable characters as the core appeal, but I don't think it worked having multiple games afterwards trying to follow on from that ten fold, especially when it shown its downsides.

Of all of Next Gen’s problems, the cast size was the least of it. And SA1’s problems, have less to do with it’s cast SIX characters and more to do with the fact that it started a case of genre roullete that didn’t flow with the other forms of gameplay that were more or less get from point A to B.

I could point to plenty of games out there with well over three to ten times the cast size of any of those games that manage to work seamlessly without having anywhere near the same faults as those examples: League of Legends has 150 playable characters to choose from that have their own roles and methods of play different from each other without changing the genre of the game; Smash Bros Ultimate is pushing well over 50 playable characters as they still continue adding more; Overwatch already has 30+ characters, and I’m sure others can add to this list.

Heck I’ve even played a character-based tower defense game (far from being my favorite genre of games) with a minimum cast size that puts Sonic’s to shame, and it’s size keeps growing.

[Wraith]

Sonic 06 is guilty of cast bloat so some streamlining there would be a good start toward addressing that game's issues, but I wonder how people would react if confronted with the fact that legacy characters like Tails and Knuckles have the least to contribute and would be the first to go. 

When this is pointed at games or shows like SatAM that already have small casts though I wonder what the point would be in streamlining even more. Characters like Bunnie and Rotor could have used more screentime, but they probably would have gotten that if the show wasn't cut off early and eventually did in the comics. I think some people just don't like the fact that Sally is a central character but that would still be the case no matter how small the FF actually are. Her and Sonic's dynamic is kind of the core of the whole thing. Everyone else is secondary compared to that and I think that's how it should be. 

 

4 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

 

I could point to plenty of games out there with well over three to ten times the cast size of any of those games that manage to work seamlessly without having anywhere near the same faults as those examples: League of Legends has 150 playable characters to choose from that have their own roles and methods of play different from each other without changing the genre of the game; Smash Bros Ultimate is pushing well over 50 playable characters as they still continue adding more; Overwatch already has 30+ characters, and I’m sure others can add to this list.

 

Multiplayer games aren't good examples. Platformers rarely have more than 4 characters.

[E-122-Psi]

29 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Sonic 06 is guilty of cast bloat so some streamlining there would be a good start toward addressing that game's issues, but I wonder how people would react if confronted with the fact that legacy characters like Tails and Knuckles have the least to contribute and would be the first to go. 

When this is pointed at games or shows like SatAM that already have small casts though I wonder what the point would be in streamlining even more. Characters like Bunnie and Rotor could have used more screentime, but they probably would have gotten that if the show wasn't cut off early and eventually did in the comics. I think some people just don't like the fact that Sally is a central character but that would still be the case no matter how small the FF actually are. Her and Sonic's dynamic is kind of the core of the whole thing. Everyone else is secondary compared to that and I think that's how it should be. 

Well Tails and Knuckles hadn't been demoted to extras just yet so I don't think it would have been too glaring (at least unless characters like Blaze and Rouge stuck since they were shoehorned in even worse). Again giving the main group some time off isn't a bad thing but it became glaring for fans when they made a habit out of it, there's a difference between occasionally shifting them out of the limelight for other things, and almost NEVER using them properly even when the ideal opportunity occurs.

I dunno, the creator notes for their future plans don't even mention them. They planned to have more for Tails, Dulcy and even Antoine, but otherwise it felt like they were drifting even further away from the early core. I think Bunnie and Rotor were just those two characters that were composed early on, the writers didn't really click anything with but since they'd introduced them as part of the main group, they were stuck keeping them around as dead weight, the same issue that came from the games adding so many main characters, making their lack of use more noticeable.

I think this is why Sally is the most divisive to adapt because with Sally, there's her core dynamic with Sonic that kind of gets shifted into focus in every incarnation and how that effects the handling of Sonic and the other characters. Things get compromised a bit more to make Sally work, sometimes in areas that feel a bit contrived (eg. Archie Amy being like her aggressive X counterpart in nearly every area BUT Sally outright being Sonic's girlfriend, future stories where Sonic is cool getting married and tied down). I think to accept Sally, fans would need assurance she can have a presence without becoming a 'black hole' outright. This is what made Shadow divisive for a while for example, since the universe and main story was starting to form more around him. Having bits of the world dynamic built around another character isn't bad (see Knuckles in the games beforehand), but after a while even Sonic was starting to feel like an irrelevent alien in his own world. Games like Next Gen started prioritising Shadow and Silver as more the story core than anyone else, the world they wanted was being built for them and others were getting left in the dust. Remember the complaints issued towards Penders' writing as well, that after a while he became far more interested developing the Archie universe around his OCs than bringing the SEGA cast to life.

[Wraith]

Elise's emotional state is directly tied to Iblis so Sonic has a lot more to do with what's going on than people give him credit for by being a shoulder to lean on. I'd argue that Shadow's arc just blatantly doesn't work as well without Rouge and Omega there but Tails and Knuckles don't add nearly as much to what's going on with Sonic. 

[Kuzu]

Writers have their own set of biases and may prioritize certain elements and characters over others, especially if they happen to be more popular. It's literally just a fact of life. Not all characters are created equally and will get the same treatment. Sally is blatantly more popular than any of her peers, and her dynamic with Sonic was the most important part of it whether you liked it or not. Some things are more popular and will get more focus as a result. 

That's not saying the lesser popular things shouldn't get focus obviously, but being upset that the likes of Sally, Shadow, or Silver are more popular and therefore, receive more attention from the writers is foolish complaint. 

[Zaysho]

8 hours ago, Jack out of the comics! said:

I think it's a matter of spot, so to reply to the others who quoted me. There isn't a place for everyone in the games, did you see Blaze and Big in Forces? Did you see Cream anywhere? Jet besides Olympics? They can't cram everyone unless it's a cameo like a trophy in Generations.  There isn't room.

Such restraint. A game where every available hero character stands around wondering how they can win without Sonic there to boost through everything. Sonic Forces is a masterpiece of storytelling that truly sets standards for this medium.

8 hours ago, Jack out of the comics! said:

So if this is about Sally... I guess I wouldn't mind if she was in the Classic branch, yeah, she can fit with a critter/mobini design, and she just fits the Classic series more, she can be a companion to Amy, that role could be given to Honey as well, maybe both?

Because I'm sure this would go over so well with you if someone suggested this for a character you cared about.

8 hours ago, Jack out of the comics! said:

For the IDW comics, they can be brought back IF Sega agrees to resurrect characters from defunct continuities, including Scratch, Grounder, Breezie, Cosmo, Sticks, etc. there are a lot of fan favorites, but it's really too many. But for comics, sure, anyone can be in them if they don't take too much role. I have to remind you in Archie reboot they were not minor characters, they were still protagonists, not supporting characters, they were as important as Sonic and Tails.

Nobody arguing for Sally, et. al's inclusion is arguing against the inclusion of other alternate media characters especially when this thread is about her, and even initially it was only about a fucking mobile game. But every time she comes up, regardless of the context, somebody has to set up a goddamned gauntlet for fans to justify even wanting that and talking about the greater scope in the franchise, which does inspire talk about "well, here's what I'd do" both to satisfy whatever arbitrary rules that keep getting brought up or to quell the stupid fearmongering over the characters "taking over."

You being bitter this particular conversation doesn't revolve around you in this moment doesn't warrant you storming in to keep picking a fight over it.

 

If this topic was about any other legacy character, the last thing anybody would want to hear about is Archie/SatAM/the Freedom Fighters and I think people would be rightfully upset if it was brought up where it wasn't necessary.

[Red Hot Jack]

7 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

The reason isn’t because their isn’t enough room—people have been spouting that load of nonsense since 2006 as well, and it makes my eyes roll that folks are still making this excuse damn well 16 years later to the same extent as the epithet of “Shadow should’ve stayed dead.” Their could be any number of reasons why we didn’t see these characters in the games: time constraints, uncertain placement of roles, or simply because they didn’t think to add them and were more interested in promoting something else, or general incompetence. We could make a list of reasons until the cows come home, but “there’s no room” is not one of them in this day and age when that hasn’t stopped them from trying to cram as many characters as they could in the past.

”There’s no room” was never an excuse when they somehow managed to fit 12 characters in Heroes back in 2004, and it’s especially no excuse in this day and age when things progress to the point where games have been able to fit well over 30+ characters in one game and still add more over time.
 

The only reason people even say that is really just to cover the fact that they don’t want them to get any attention and want to make up an excuse to justify themselves—that was the case when they said that for Shadow after his game soured this franchise’s reputation, they said it for the extended game cast when they wanted a scapegoat for the series problems, and you’re not treading any new ground using it in 2020 when people have long since wised up to what people really mean behind that statement.

You have no idea what’s “a lot” if five extra characters are somehow too much.

Yeah? So was Big the Cat of all characters. As was Amy Rose and Cream the Rabbit. So what’s the problem aside from you not wanting the Freedom Fighters to get any attention?

And I have to remind you, again, they they were still able to be supporting characters in the Fighters arc during the reboot, which you seem intent on ignoring after I just gave you this example the first time you claimed you never saw them in such a position.

And that wouldn’t be a problem so long as they keep the spirit of these characters intact and make them as recognizable as they were the first time they were rebooted. It wasn’t impossible for them to do the first time around, it sure as hell wouldn’t be impossible to do it a second time—especially when many of us didn’t want them rebooted in the first place and still found them enjoyable.

 

1 hour ago, Zaysho said:

Such restraint. A game where every available hero character stands around wondering how they can win without Sonic there to boost through everything. Sonic Forces is a masterpiece of storytelling that truly sets standards for this medium.

Because I'm sure this would go over so well with you if someone suggested this for a character you cared about.

Nobody arguing for Sally, et. al's inclusion is arguing against the inclusion of other alternate media characters especially when this thread is about her, and even initially it was only about a fucking mobile game. But every time she comes up, regardless of the context, somebody has to set up a goddamned gauntlet for fans to justify even wanting that and talking about the greater scope in the franchise, which does inspire talk about "well, here's what I'd do" both to satisfy whatever arbitrary rules that keep getting brought up or to quell the stupid fearmongering over the characters "taking over."

You being bitter this particular conversation doesn't revolve around you in this moment doesn't warrant you storming in to keep picking a fight over it.

 

If this topic was about any other legacy character, the last thing anybody would want to hear about is Archie/SatAM/the Freedom Fighters and I think people would be rightfully upset if it was brought up where it wasn't necessary.

I'm gonna reply to both here

1. I never said Forces or its story are well written, but I do stand by my point: bringing every possible character in a game doesn't help said game, unless it's a cameo like a trophy or something like that. I still believe priority should be given to Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy and Eggman, supporting roles to 10 (?) maybe. I'm really for the rotation system at this point, like have Shadow and Blaze in 1 game, Cream and Silver (for examples) in another, etc. maybe then you can have a Freedom Fighters game, idk.

2. Ok, I don't mind Sally and co. returning if it's not just a special case for them, yeah, everyone (Sticks, Breezie, etc.) can be back if Sega agrees, for a comic or a mobile game. I may hate the Freedom Fighters, but fans want them back, I can't do anything to change that.

3. I'm not attacking anyone personally, I may specify, I'm only attacking fictional characters here.

[Kuzu]

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm kind of tired of the idea that Tails, Knuckles, Amy need priority over everyone else when that is literally already the case.

Not only are they the most promoted characters, they have the largest amount of playable appearances through the series.

How much priority do they actually need at this point?

[KoDaiko]

Given the current writing quality and game direction, I'm curious how Sega will handle adding 5 new characters + Sonic & co. Or just Sally, I suppose? 

 

Oh yeah I was just listening to the new Bumblekast, and one of the question asked Ian how he would bring the Freedom Fighters back and what direction he would give them. Ian mentioned a IDW crew jam session where they bounced off ideas, but he didn't want to go into details just in case. But he still explained his thought process (rough transcript, long) : 

Spoiler

• There's always going to be some kind of guideline they have to follow, if and when they get the opportunity.
• Big thing about bringing them back is how to approach the philosophy of bringing them in: what role would they play in the book, as they used to fill in the extended cast Sonic didn't have at the time
• IDW takes it's cue from Modern Sonic, where there are a huge cast of characters that fill in many roles. The new characters in IDW fill in the small niches left unattended to...what role has not been filled yet, what do they bring to the story that is not already there.
• The Freedom Fighter is a lot of characters to bring in, and they need to look at who they were, what traits they have, what do that individually bring to the narrative, and does the story need that right now.
• One of biggest problem is Rotor- supposed to be Sonic's best friend & gadget guy. That's (now) Tails. While their characterization is worlds-apart, the role they fill within the narrative is synonymous. So what to do with Rotor, how does he fit in with this version of the narrative?
• You can say their role is fanservice, which is perfectly legitimate. But if they are to be in the story in long term capacity, it needs to be more than because people asked for it. They need to serve a purpose, they need to do more than just exist for the sake of existing
• Sally is easy: as a strong independent leader type character. Don't get a lot of those in Sonic as everyone seems to be kind of a loose free agent in Modern Sonic.
• Bunnie: unique enough in her characterization & skill set that she's fairly easy 
• Nicole: kind of tied to Sally's character, not too hard?
• Antoine: would need some work because let's be honest, in Satam he was the "tied cowardly frenchman" trope. Archie book did built a lot off from that but that doesn't count anymore, that's off the table, Archie is gone. This would have to be a new direction, so what do you do with the mildly offensive stereotype comic relief 
• Everything would have to be taken into account- what's usable from the old cartoon, what can't be used need to be updated, what's off limit from Archie( if all or some is)... -what can they use, how can they use it
• BASICALLY - there are many ways to bring them back, but would take a lot of time and consideration on how to do it right.

(If anyone wants the link w/timestamp: ttps://youtu.be/ynhd0CQ5cl4?t=2717)

 

[Pengi]

Ian Flynn talked a lot about the Freedom Fighters on today's Bumblekast (45m17s in): 

 

Covers a lot of stuff that's been brought up here. I'm paraphrasing here, so listen to the podcast for the exact wording and context: when the original show was made Sonic had no proper supporting cast in the games - Tails was brand new, Amy hadn't appeared in a game yet, Knuckles didn't exist yet. So the Freedom Fighters were the supporting cast. Nowadays Sonic already has a huge extended cast from the games. With new characters like Tangle, Whisper, Starline and Mimic they look for roles/niches that haven't already been filled. Ian says Rotor is one of the biggest problems, since he was Sonic's best friend and the gadget guy, which is Tails' role. Antoine was a mildly offensive cowardly French stereotype in the cartoon, so they'd need to consider what they should do about that. There are a lot of ways to bring the Freedom Fighters back, and it would take a lot of time and consideration to bring them back, Ian hopes he can be part of that conversation if it happens. Ian isn't banking on the Freedom Fighters coming back, but he is optimistic.

The IDW crew had an impromptu jam session - pitching ideas just for fun - about what they would do with the Freedom Fighters. Ian has around 5 different scenarios, depending on what limitations they'd be under. Evan Stanley and David Mariotte have their own ideas (Ian really loved one of Mariotte's ideas, that he hadn't even considered).

EDIT: Beaten to it while I was posting.

[Shadowlax]

22 hours ago, Kuzu said:

And yes, I am going to blame fans because they never know what they want. They THINK they know, but they don't because their actions contract themselves constantly. This is why there's a large claim that we're "unpleasable" because everyone is screaming for what THEY want and don't give a shit what anyone else might want. 

Wanna just mention this real quick. You should blame the corporation. The corporation who could just fund different things people want and not the multiple entirely different fanbases that have no real obligation to give a shit about what other people want. The issue is the corporation , decided to sacrifice and ridicule to varying degree other fan bases to please what they assumed was a potentially profitable. They could have not done that, they could have gone an entirely different game. Yes Some guy who wants only classic is annoying, but he ain't the one making business decision, sega is. And maybe sega warping an entire brand into what he wants thinking that maybe he will buy things is the choice they made. Didn't work out but it was a choice. The frustration you have isn't with fans its more so the corporate entity seemingly only listening that is exclusionary. If they weren't listening it wouldn't be an issue.

Side tracked sorry. Back to sally and the FF's

I think the main issue with sally and the FF's returning is purely on a business and popularity end. They can make anything into anything they want or at least try and fail to. So if they wanted to make them the same in name only  and push that they could. I think the primary issue they aren't really that popular with the demographic consuming the 3 games now or heck even in 00's. You could put them in say new classic games you make but that crowd might not be receptive to that. Because they might not care for them either , though to be fair they are more likely to. As a business though, why even take that risk.

Espically ( and this is important)  when you have introduced new characters in the comics you have control over that have in a short period of time have become more useful to you than any of those other characters. While Ian sas he's hopeful I just doubt it, he isn't really on the insides and I think that they aren't even really considering it. Because at this point I feel as though if they wanted them in they would be in. They did want sticks in enough at on point to do stuff with her and that isn't to say anything of tangle and whisper.

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm kind of tired of the idea that Tails, Knuckles, Amy need priority over everyone else when that is literally already the case.

Not only are they the most promoted characters, they have the largest amount of playable appearances through the series.

How much priority do they actually need at this point?

I want to say at the core of this post there's kind of a point I kind of agree with , sort of on like a grand scale. However your evidence is actually lacking and sort of an issue when discussing this.

What does promotion mean? What does promotion mean to a consumer. That's the issue here. Like I like shadow right. Shadow shows up I dunno, ah right him and sonic are guests in a mobile game right? If I don't play that mobile game and I have no interest in it, then what does that mean to me, why should I care about the corporate machinations of spreading the brand around. That means nothing to me, I or these people who want tails knuckles and amy to have priority.  I feel are being told should be happy with what they have, but that require them even caring about the product. So what does promotion mean? Why should that matter to someone who wants these characters to have more prominence particularly in this situation. 

"largest amount of playable appearances" I mean i guess? When was the last time tails , knuckles or amy had any significant playable role in any sonic. Its  game unless I forgot something its either around or been over a decade multiple console generations have come and gone.  So what does that metric even mean to the people asking this. You could say sonic boom, but why should they count spin off material that they have no interest in. They have the thing they desire, say the comics. And they want them to be prominent there or the mainline games too.

It kind of just feels like you are telling people they should be happy because the corporation put amy in a commercial. And their characters may have been in the background of one game. Because they haven't been around they have just been kinda there.  It seems weird to tell these people who have gotten scraps if not anything at all to just be happy.

I get the idea of wanting to focus on other stuff. But your argument has to ignore the fundamental reality of the changes the series went through, and a lot of people feel like they aren't getting much. So wanting actual focus on these characters is understandable.

This is only considering the type of person who say genuinely likes these characters and wants to see them. There's also a type of person who just wants it because " this is how things should be" and that person should be ignored and kind of is being ignored to varying degree's by sega.

 

 

[Kuzu]

Yes, I am aware about corporations. (because you never seem to stop mentioning them) But unfortunately, I am a person on the internet with no power over a multimillion dollar company, so I kind of think my time is better elsewhere than shouting into the void.

Can we keep this about the topic and not proverbial corporate man.

[Shadowlax]

17 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Yes, I am aware about corporations. (because you never seem to stop mentioning them) But unfortunately, I am a person on the internet with no power over a multimillion dollar company, so I kind of think my time is better elsewhere than shouting into the void.

Can we keep this about the topic and not proverbial corporate man.

I feel like yelling into a void is blaming other fans who also don't have control over that corporation.

In fact that's the entire premise of this thread is people trying to yell at corporate man to get the thing that they want. That's what rally for sally is, its literally a bunch of people instead of arguing with themselves and getting nothing done, is yelling at corporate man. This is a mascot series for a global corporation. Capitalism and corporatism are inherent to the conversation especially when so much of the audience is left unsatisfied. And I wont stop talking about it because its always been core to a lot of sonics problems as a series.

[Kuzu]

Literally nobody but you was talking about corporate dude; we were talking about how the Freedom Fighters could be implemented into the series. I don't think anyone here is under some impression that people from Sega read these threads to have any type of influence on the direction of the series. People in this thread have said that this isn't really going to affect anything in the long term.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

5 hours ago, Wraith said:

9 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

 

Multiplayer games aren't good examples. Platformers rarely have more than 4 characters

And I don’t care whether it’s multiplayer or not. That’s not a factor against the idea of large cast sizes in any type of fiction.

[KoDaiko]

3 hours ago, Pengi said:

EDIT: Beaten to it while I was posting.

 

Most memorable of that Q&A for me was "fanservice isn't a good enough reason for long-term inclusion" and "new characters need a specific role/purpose/use that benefit the required narrative", which are good points for the comic & games at least. For a minor spinoff like Speed Battle, fan service may be good enough to justify her inclusion. 

Ian's word implied they'll have to base them off the Satam version (with possible recycling from Archie). And I agree with him about Antoine and Rotor being the weakest in term of characterization. Given Sega LOVES to use the 3 member team rule......an all girl team doesn't sound that bad, with the guys given a minor role. Well, depends on how SoJ thinks of holo-lynx Nicole (wait I already talked about this in another thread, sorry).

[Pengi]

If they get permission to use the Freedom Fighters it'll probably be either the whole team or just Sally. I can't envision a scenario where they get Sally and Bunnie but not Rotor or Antoine, or where they intentionally leave out Rotor and Antoine.

I wouldn't count on holo-lynx Nicole making it. That was purely an Archie idea. Ian previously made it sound like it was even a bit of a grey area during the reboot.

[E-122-Psi]

Antoine might work if they can keep his sword (which was an Archie creation). Maybe go for the middle ground with him, where he is a clown but develops into a 'lethal joke character' that is more competent but never quite ditches his comedic streak (think Black Knight combat but with Sonic the Fighters execution). Maybe have him an over the top ham normally but when low on health or rings his animations become more frantic and panicky (think Cortex in Twinsanity).

I think it really depends how spurious a link to Archie they can have. I know Penders is pretty petty with areas he was responsible for, claiming he invented the idea of a 'evil twin' for Sonic, but didn't TSR have characterisations that were more loyal to the Archie versions as well? Hell Mania and Generations got away with nods to the Hooligan characterisations of Bean and Bark.

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Antoine might work if they can keep his sword (which was an Archie creation). Maybe go for the middle ground with him, where he is a clown but develops into a 'lethal joke character' that is more competent but never quite ditches his comedic streak (think Black Knight combat but with Sonic the Fighters execution). Maybe have him an over the top ham normally but when low on health or rings his animations become more frantic and panicky (think Cortex in Twinsanity).

I think it really depends how spurious a link to Archie they can have. I know Penders is pretty petty with areas he was responsible for, claiming he invented the idea of a 'evil twin' for Sonic, but didn't TSR have characterisations that were more loyal to the Archie versions as well? Hell Mania and Generations got away with nods to the Hooligan characterisations of Bean and Bark.

That would be a good idea. I can just see him statring to cower, and suddenly start swinging his sword like a madman, and somehow win the day! XD That sounds like it would be fun to play!

Also, sorry for going a little off topic  but about that person claiming they invented the idea of 'evil Sonic'. Please say this isn't true. I mean, the whole 'evil twin' shtick, or doppelgangers, has been around for centuries! Is this fellow the reason that the sonic cast can't have family too? If so, then yeeeeesh! That's just crazy! He didn't invent parenthood last I checked!

[E-122-Psi]

49 minutes ago, A Random Villager said:

That would be a good idea. I can just see him statring to cower, and suddenly start swinging his sword like a madman, and somehow win the day! XD That sounds like it would be fun to play!

I admit I was never big on how they tried to make Antoine unironically serious and suave in combat for nearly all of Archie. I have no problems with Antoine being competent, but it feels like there should always be a silly bluster to him (or at least it should only be DEATHLY grim or OOC moments where he isn't). I mean most of the games cast are dorks as well, even when they're getting the job done, that sort of shtick would work fine among them.

Also I suppose it also leaves his reboot redesign off the table as well (was never big on that, looked so generic).

49 minutes ago, A Random Villager said:

Also, sorry for going a little off topic  but about that person claiming they invented the idea of 'evil Sonic'. Please say this isn't true. I mean, the whole 'evil twin' shtick, or doppelgangers, has been around for centuries! Is this fellow the reason that the sonic cast can't have family too? If so, then yeeeeesh! That's just crazy! He didn't invent parenthood last I checked!

From what I heard at least, Penders put evil twins for Sonic off bounds, along with other echidnas besides Knuckles. I dunno, it sounds like he REALLY reaches for what he contributed to the franchise. I reckon he sees Sonic as his legacy and will do anything to get his name pasted on it, even if most of the time the people in charge decide to just not use it. Basically an 'If I can't have you, NO ONE can' situation.

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I admit I was never big on how they tried to make Antoine unironically serious and suave in combat for nearly all of Archie. I have no problems with Antoine being competent, but it feels like there should always be a silly bluster to him (or at least it should only be DEATHLY grim or OOC moments where he isn't). I mean most of the games cast are dorks as well, even when they're getting the job done, that sort of shtick would work fine among them.

Also I suppose it also leaves his reboot redesign off the table as well (was never big on that, looked so generic).

From what I heard at least, Penders put evil twins for Sonic off bounds, along with other echidnas besides Knuckles. I dunno, it sounds like he REALLY reaches for what he contributed to the franchise. I reckon he sees Sonic as his legacy and will do anything to get his name pasted on it, even if most of the time the people in charge decide to just not use it. Basically an 'If I can't have you, NO ONE can' situation.

Yeah I preferred Antoine's old look to his post-reboot look. It helped make him look more unique. I actually like a few of the old designs for the freedom fighters. Rotor for instance, I felt looked better in his old look. He looked more approachable and friendly, to me anyway.

As for what you said about Sonic twins and echidnas, that's just insane! He doesn't own Sonic, so he shouldn't even have a say on whether he has one or not. As for the echidna thing? Also just ridiculous. Again he does not own them, the word, or have anything to do with them. If Sega wants to add more, they should be able to. Is this why dark brotherhood got sued? Because of echidnas being involved? Or did he feel they infringed him on their name or something? Yeeeeesh! Heaven forbid Sega actually wants to do more story oriented stuff.  Pity. That game, while not the best gameplay wise, did have potential for more story oriented games to follow suit if that madness didn't happen

Sorry for going on a tangent. Stuff like this just riles me up. I want more story and character development darn it! Here's hoping that Sally and co. can get in! At least into the mobile game for.

[Pengi]

There's nothing preventing Sega from creating more echidna characters or evil versions of Sonic. They just can't use the specific echidna characters or Evil Sonic that Ken Penders co-created.

Sonic Chronicles was a problem because the new echidna characters and their story were clearly and obviously based upon Ken Penders' Knuckles comics.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Pengi said:

There's nothing preventing Sega from creating more echidna characters or evil versions of Sonic. They just can't use the specific echidna characters or Evil Sonic that Ken Penders co-created.

Sonic Chronicles was a problem because the new echidna characters and their story were clearly and obviously based upon Ken Penders' Knuckles comics.

Oooooh ok If there was blatant copying involved in Chronicles, then that's a whole different kettle of fish altogether. Credit where credit is due and all that. If Sega still can do their own things, then that's ok. (Well, as ok as things can be with these messy things XD)

Speaking of using characters though, if Sally were to get in, how would they be able to interpret her. Would they do her as she appeared in the cartoon only, or would they be allowed to show bits and pieces of her growth in the comics? For better or worse, a lot happened in the comics that turned her into the character we know today.