Rally 4 Sally

[Wraith]

I think the point is that Eggman wouldn't really sweat it if Bunnie's limbs were permanently transformed by his machine. He just wouldn't be concerned with that type of collateral damage in the long term especially in the hypothetical scenario where he's turning people into robots anyway. 

[antyep]

Look if this is about fearing that Eggman robotizing Bunnie is a step too far for him, then maybe take a page out of Fleetway, where Robotnik had this indestructible alloy that make it nearly impossible to take the robotic armor off, like the character: Shortfuse. It was pretty much like the games, upped a level.

[Kuzu]

Why are we going so far to sanitize Eggman's actions? Just let the man be evil. All of this horrible shit he has done, and permanently crippling someone is now a step too far?

 

[Nintenboi]

I personally don’t see this happening at all. Unlike Tangle and Whisper who are still making appearances in the IDW comics, Sally and the rest of the Freedom Fighters have been mostly retired due to Archie being cancelled. Sure, Sally is a popular character among fans, but to a kid who has the game on their phone, Sally would be a completely out of the blue nobody. I think that Sega is mostly done with the Freedom Fighters and we likely won’t be seeing any of them in any game soon. The Sally we know just simply doesn’t fit with how Sonic wants to portray the Sonic franchise.

[E-122-Psi]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Why are we going so far to sanitize Eggman's actions? Just let the man be evil. All of this horrible shit he has done, and permanently crippling someone is now a step too far?

 

There's a difference between 'sanitising' his actions and having a different narrative depiction of the character. SatAm/Archie Eggman is clearly meant to be treated as a far more murderous and horrific villain. There are SOME differences in depiction.

It's like saying King Koopa is the same as any sinister 'Knight of Cerebus' villain just because he gleefully loves doing vile and evil things like turning people to stone. He's clearly not designed to horrify the audience and add a dark turn to the plot the same way SatAm Robotnik is. He's a 'love to hate' pantomime villain and I feel that is what games Eggman is. Morality scale isn't the whole thing to measure them here.

[thumbs13]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Why are we going so far to sanitize Eggman's actions? Just let the man be evil. All of this horrible shit he has done, and permanently crippling someone is now a step too far?

 

On purpose? Probably. The thing about Eggman is a lot of his worse actions are careless or collateral damage from something else he's doing. 

In general, there's a difference between doing something to a group and doing something to an individual. A million is a statistic and all that.

[E-122-Psi]

27 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

On purpose? Probably. The thing about Eggman is a lot of his worse actions are careless or collateral damage from something else he's doing. 

In general, there's a difference between doing something to a group and doing something to an individual. A million is a statistic and all that.

True, I mean genocide is definitely horrible, but we never get anything vivid and on-the-nose to that like say the Egg Grapes, where Eggman SUCCESSFULLY KILLS A TON OF ESTABLISHED CHARACTERS. Again a lot of focus is on what a careless and flawed individual Eggman is rather than JUST how evil he is. I feel this is something the FF depiction only kinda scrapes the surface of, despite having all the potential to do so in spades. It tends to keep things in this simplified 'good vs evil' dynamic most of the time. I mean Robotnik has been intentionally polluting the planet for years but it has no side effects for himself.

Like the SatAm backstory demonstrates in spades that technology isn't bad in itself, but it is something that can be EXTREMELY dangerous if given into the hands of careless and overambitious individuals, even ones with perfectly good intent. I thought there was lost potential concerning development of King Acorn and Uncle Chuck for example, since their complacency and careless ambition with their technology was pretty much the key to Robotnik taking over. Same for other arcs like New Mobotropolis and the Freedom Fighters' increased overconfidence that no one, not even a techno mage, could penetrate NICOLE had DRASTIC consequences. At best we just got a fleeting moment like this:

"I feel bad."

"Nah don't worry about it, it was those evil bad guys."

"Yeah, I guess you're right."

I think this is something that make games Eggman more than a walking ball of evil, that he is pretty much also an embodiment of careless ego and ambition, a very flawed and complicated human being in a way that isn't just horrifying villainy. If anything that is as valid a demonstration that actions have consequences.

[DabigRG]

Alright, I've ignored/neglected this for long enough. What's this about?

[E-122-Psi]

Just now, DabigRG said:

Alright, I've ignored/neglected this for long enough. What's this about?

Well if I try and recollect my earlier rambling, I think it's what sort of measures that SatAm/Archie Robotnik took that were pivotal to the FF's premise wouldn't be compatible with the games Eggman?

[Ryannumber1gamer]

22 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Well if I try and recollect my earlier rambling, I think it's what sort of measures that SatAm/Archie Robotnik took that were pivotal to the FF's premise wouldn't be compatible with the games Eggman?

He literally took over the entire planet in Forces, which caused the creation of the Resistance, which - yeah - is essentially just a renamed Freedom Fighters standing up against Eggman's oppression. 

[DabigRG]

On 8/22/2020 at 9:53 AM, Waluigi Smash said:

Sally is coming to Sonic Dash and Sonic Forces Speed Battle really soon

https://twitter.com/LineGutter/status/1277776560603508736

Wtf is up with that comic strip in the comments? 0-0

On 8/22/2020 at 10:34 AM, MetalSkulkBane said:

Eeeeeh I doubt it will work, but you know what? What the heck, everyone who likes Sally should support it.

This movement has purely positive energy to it. It's not "boo, ban this" or "fire that writer". It doesn't even have bitter rivarly with anyone (like in Smash) since pretty much everyone already is in IOS games. maybe Sticks It's fairly unlikely things get toxic.

And unlike say "Sally for IDW", adding Sally can't be detrimental for other characters, if anythings might get more people interested n Sonic games. So it's hard to find drawback

Oh, someone probably find a way. 

It'd be a nice gesture nonetheless.

On 8/22/2020 at 2:03 PM, E-122-Psi said:

I wouldn't be too against Dash since obviously it isn't really story or personality influenced. It'd be hard to contradict their appeal with such a simplistic use.

I get the feeling I'd still be super finicky about how they'd design any of the American media characters however. Tangle and Whisper already had SEGA-ish designs from the beginning that were translated pretty much perfectly. I thought nearly every FF redesign after the finalised SatAm ones was kinda generic, especially the reboot ones.

 

If they DO use Sally and must use the reboot Sally, at least restore the Bambi-eyes. They're just a trademark to Sally to me.

Oh really?

On 8/22/2020 at 5:31 PM, Dr. Mechano said:

Honestly, I think it'd be fun if they did add Sally, but - since she's the video game version of Sally and not SatAM or Archie - her only history with Sonic was briefly being rescued by him in Eggman's Veg-O-Fortress:

Of course, she'd be pink as well, since that's the coloration she had in her original game appearance.

She's probably not a princess in this universe. Probably not even someone who has a particularly close connection to Sonic. Just a bystander who got wrapped up in one of Eggman's zany schemes one time, who's back after years of absence. 

Is there a pink shade of Brown? I know there is orange shade of pink at least

On 8/22/2020 at 8:13 PM, Badnik Mechanic said:

 

It'd be like Fleetway fans trying to get Shrotfuse or the evil Super Sonic into a mobile game, great for fans of Fleetway in Europe and the 1 or two who live outside the EU, for everyone else it'll be a case of *Shrugs* "Ok" or *Shrugs* "Why?"

 

Why not?

Short fuse I mean

On 8/22/2020 at 8:32 PM, E-122-Psi said:

 

Now Sonic Dash I agree is the best compromise for them since like I said before, it's a very simple game that does not demand a lot of continuity or character establishment. Every character is basically a skin in a base Sonic environment, it's not gonna overwrite or mandate how the games work any time soon. But in terms of asking the question altogether 'why can't they be in the games?' you're asking about the alt media cast with arguably the LARGEST amount of baggage and complications to adapt. I don't think it's fair at all to debunk everyone whose against it as some close minded games-Nazi. They're not for everyone, and for as often as they fail, the games are meant to be the 'for everyone' take on Sonic.

What about Speed Battle?

On 8/22/2020 at 10:40 PM, Wraith said:

This is kind of off topic but I think that it's a little strange that SOJ's own lore for the series is considered some kind of holy text everyone should honor when creating new Sonic content even though most Sonic fans aren't actually satisfied with the storytelling/lore in most of the games. What the Classic Sonic games have is a good starting point but they're not super compelling on their own. Their ideas weren't inherently better than what the cartoons came up with by any stretch. 

Not to mention they straight up ignore or change it whenever they feel like.

[DabigRG]

On 8/23/2020 at 9:58 AM, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

All this talk about the source material is pretty nonsense when the Movie hardly stuck to it and defied expectations. Nevermind that every incarnation of Sonic played with the source and often did their own things, so it really comes off as looking for an excuse to complain.

 

On 8/23/2020 at 10:06 AM, Tracker_TD said:

I think this speaks more to how low expectations for the Sonic Movie were than anything, really.

That's because theovir didn't give a fuck about what was actually in games beyond the basics. It took the backlash for them to bring on Tyson Hesse to overhaul a few admittedly minor things.

[DabigRG]

On 8/23/2020 at 12:12 PM, Kuzu said:

Ya know people, Sonic is allowed to have more than one foil and all of them aren't better or worse than the other.

There's literally nothing stopping Sally from being as effective of a foil as Tails so...Im not seeing the issue...

Pretty much.

Sally offers interaction most other game characters don't and that's with keeping her around just Sonic.

On 8/23/2020 at 12:19 PM, E-122-Psi said:

I admit I might be cheating in that area and using Boom as a primary example. Tails' machinery often suffered a complexity addiction with Sonic getting moments of being the straight man to it (eg. making a disastrous cleaning machine, Sonic suggests 'using a broom'). Of course there are still times Sonic is reckless and arrogant, but they tended to play these pretty much 50:50, while Sonic and Sally it's clearer the times Sally's ethics are flawed are the distant exception, not the rule, which of course has effect on Sonic's personality due to flanderizing his negative qualities more often.

Even then though Colors and Lost World do show glimmers of this sort of dynamic, they make clear that while Sonic is cocksure and reckless, Tails isn't exactly all-knowing. Even within all the controversy about  Tails' handling in Lost Worlds we get that scene where he confidently rebuilds Cubot, with him chastised by Sonic when the monstrosity nearly kills him when he's not paying attention. It was a bit of an isolated moment but it worked as sort of a personality demonstration of Tails' niche and how it doesn't always work out, while with Sally.  I tended to feel like they felt they could only make her go wrong if she broke character and acted reckless like Sonic and even then it's only  really her that's allowed to call her out on it. Only designated strawmen or misguided characters like Hamlin or Mina were allowed to call her out on the repercussions her actions had and were almost certainly conveyed as harsh and wrong. Sally was still generally not someone who was challenged often, even in their attempts to make her 'not so above it all'.

My primary concerns with Sally 'dominating' the limelight was how much damn screen time was devoted to them bickering. Just...bickering not stop. Often no one else could really get in a word edge wise, they loved this constant arguing shtick about them. There wasn't really a lot of foil development among the other Freedom Fighters, besides Antoine being Sonic's straw loser and kick stand for insults. Rotor dissolved in terms of interactions after the earliest episodes and comics and Bunnie never really had a chemistry with Sonic at all. You could argue that indeed Tails has gained some 'nagging sitcom wife' elements but even then he feels like he has more mutual elements to Sonic and that more of their interactions don't just consist of them arguing and disagreeing, and even some of their clashes felt way more playful (not to say Sally is ALWAYS like this and they don't have warm moments, but they did the 'clashing opposites' thing A LOT).

Was gonna quoting any of these because they go on for a while, but this captures at least 2 points:

Sally like Sonic is kind of a product of the time, from what I understand. And she ended up staying 50% that because she was only in the Archie comics for most of the franchise and when they later brought her back into prominence, her mid SatAM material was what they went with because it was her roots before getting over overburdened by extraneous drama.

The reboot generally set about recontextualizing the Freedom Fighters among other because they had to dump the vast majority of what they had before and start again from the basics. In Sally's case, they largely meant a bit of what she is SatAM, including the intended push and pull between her and Sonic. Which back then meant, for all her prudence and talk, she ultimately had an ego and even temper comparable to his, but then again the reboot made some effort to cut back on her being so prevalent in favor of expanding the others into something more.

On 8/23/2020 at 12:29 PM, Ryannumber1gamer said:

I also wanted to add that on the subject of roboticisation, the games already added an aspect that would allow Bunnie and such to easily slot into place. Lost World showcased Tails undergoing a very similar process to Bunnie where he had several cybernetic parts attached to him.

True, he was able to shred them later, but we already know Tails had screwed with the machine beforehand, so it’s possible he also changed how the process works. So I don’t think it’s really that far out there to imply after Lost World, Eggman might’ve been testing it on other animals.

Wasn't Eggman or Zavok supposed to come up with something like that eventually in Runners?

On 8/23/2020 at 12:45 PM, Tornado said:

 

There's more to "brutal honesty" than just being an asshole. Perhaps keep that in mind next you jump in a thread to go on a tangent shitting on things because you think it's deserved for justification you've imagined.

This might be something good for some characters to keep in mind.

On 8/23/2020 at 12:53 PM, E-122-Psi said:

Well, no. I agree that Tails felt like a slapdash baseline for how he's supposed to be in Lost World. Maybe that's why I interchange him too much with Boom Tails because Boom Tails kinda felt like that direction for him WRITTEN WELL, which I admit is a kind of flimsy way of looking at it in hindsight.

It's hard to really define my complications with Sally. I guess I always saw her as the team mom, but an overbearing overprotective know-it-all mom who always tried to decide every step the team made and was legitimately shocked and hurt whenever someone was unhappy with it. Like well intentioned and obviously not unjustified at many points (this is a war where she's lost MANY people), but still someone who needs to get told to step down sometimes, especially since so very often we saw Sally couldn't practice what she preached, acting as reckless as the people she chastised or getting on people's case for telling HER what to do. There's always this feeling that Sally had troubles relating to other characters and had this 'I know what's best for everyone more than they do' outlook, which isn't a bad flaw at all, so long as it was developed as one in-universe and pointed out to her sometimes, which it seldom was. Enabled most of the time with very few moments of humility, this archetype actually ends up pretty insufferable and unlikeable.

This is generally why the best straight men still get plenty not-so-above-it-all moments when they're conveyed as self righteous and shown to not always have the right answer as often as they think (see Twilight Sparkle for example, a character who is similar to Sally in many areas but does get these negative condescending qualities utilised in universe and how they affect her dynamics with other characters). Contrary to what writers thought, Sally DID have an ego, maybe not a narcissistic ego like Sonic's but still an overbearing one in a different area. If anything that would have applied to the 'so different yet so similar' aspect of them if they'd went with that, rather than trying to convey her as so much more lucid and down to earth than him that they barely had anything in common.

Like I feel Sonic and the Secret Scrolls is one of my favourite character displays for her. She sets up a plan with the others and is legit excited about it, she even practically sets up their vehicle as a nice surprise for Sonic....only for him to be bluntly unimpressed and point out all the flaws. Sally is quite hurt by this, she is quite assured she has thought everything through, and pretty much throws a tantrum and tells Sonic they're doing it whether he likes it or not. Though when the plan inevitably goes wrong, she does begrudgingly admit her mistake and thank Sonic, begrudgingly because Sonic does call her out in his usual playful gloating sort of way that he usually saves for other characters. I feel like if we had gotten more moments like that to balance the better ones it's Sally the voice of reason for Sonic like Sonic Conversation (and you know, more cases they just weren't at each other's backs or another character got some personality demonstration) the dynamic would have felt more fleshed out and Sally a more fallible character.

I swear I was gonna ask, what fuckin Wii game did you totally not play?

On 8/23/2020 at 5:59 PM, GentlemanX said:

So, I'll go ahead and add my two cents, since one of my staff at ASO spear headed this movement following a comment from me on the ASO twitter where I talked about how excited I was to see Tangle & Whisper come to the mobile games and would love to see Sally too.

First, the main focus of this campaign - adding Sally to the mobile games. This is something I honestly don't understand why there'd be any hesitancy toward unless you're coming from Sega's perspective. As has been noted, these are noncanon mobile games which let you play as an Android mascot version of Sonic and have Sonic race Sonic respectively - there's nothing to take into account about the larger ramifications of adding any characters to this whether they be from Archie, IDW, Fleetway, etc. While I'd love for everyone to show up, obviously I'd focus on Sally because I like Sally and she's by far the most popular of the non-IDW alternate media series (which she is - there's really no debating that - she was a tent-pole character, arguably both positively and negatively more than Sonic himself, in an ongoing comic for over 20 years and Ian continued to say that Sally was treated differently by Archie and Sega because of her popularity throughout his tenure on the book).

One obvious advantage she has, and why I'm going to promote rally4sally rather than rally4scourge or something is that she's literally owned by Sega, so there's nothing externally standing in the way of her appearing (for Fleetway fans - maybe ask Sega for Johnny Lightfoot or Porker Lewis for this same reason). Internally at Sega, there are two major issues I understand which would prevent her inclusion. 1. She was not designed or created by Sega staff. This is probably the biggest reason, but I'd love to see Hesse or Gates or someone give her a new design approved by Uekawa and Sonic Team. That requires them to care about her though, which fan promotion is probably the only thing we can do to that effect. 2. Unlike Tangle and Whisper, Sally's inclusion would not promote another product. If Sally were in IDW then she could be used to promote IDW, but that would cycle back around to problem number one. The only thing we as fans can do is try and change this mindset - try to make the case to Sega that fans want the mobile games to use everyone Sega has at their disposal.

Which is the point of the campaign - to try and convince Sega that there are fans out there that want them to produce this product by taking a popular character and including them in a low risk avenue for them. It's the same reason fans keep asking for Sally in the IDW comics which IDW staff acknowledged in some interview recently. If you don't care about Sally or the Freedom Fighters and don't want to actively contribute to this campaign, sure that's fine. But having an issue with other fans trying to do it at all is so strange to me.

Next, Sally and/or the Freedom Fighters in the main games. This has been something I've talked about before, but I'll go ahead and go over my thoughts on it again. While there would no doubt be some fans who will always be unsatisfied that the games don't reflect SatAM and vice versa, I personally don't think that's a strong enough reason to not please some fans by adding new versions of the characters that better match the worlds of the games or IDW comics. How I would personally introduce the characters would be to keep their personalities in tact while divorcing the SatAM setting from them. Have Sally no longer being a princess or tactical leader, but keep her more serious minded perspective and her humanitarian goals. She'd be an activist that volunteers time toward helping people and fighting against injustices; getting along with Sonic and playfully chastising him for his hyper "always on the move" attitude. If she were allowed to be playable (you know, if anyone besides Sonic is allowed to be playable outside of Mania and multiplayer racing/party/mobile games), that could be explored with elements to her design either in the way of her ring blades from post-reboot or something involving Nicole like in that Sally in Sonic 1 mod.

The other Freedom Fighters would be similar - Rotor would be a modest but excited mechanic who likes to invent new devices to utilize with a moveset based either on those devices or his own body (I lean toward him sliding around on his belly with a paw attack rather than making him a brawler ala post-reboot but that could work too), Antoine would be a scared but brave swordsman whose moveset would focus on his sword (fighting with a sword could be straight forward, but having it allow him to bounce similar to Scrooge's cane in Capcom's DuckTales could be fun), and Bunnie would be a rough-and-tumble, outgoing cowgirl who uses artificial limbs that can stretch and fly (maybe even including her arm cannon). Instead of roboticization, they could be prosthetic. Nicole's a bit more complicated since her lynx form doesn't exist in SatAM and therefore may not be available to Sega (she was designed by Archie artist Tania Del Rio). Having her be an AI learning from Sonic to be hip like in SatAM would still be fun to me. The characters would be individual (minus Nicole being with Sally) with the Freedom Fighters group being something referenced when they're all together (including Sonic, Tails, and maybe Amy) complete with "Long time no see... looks like the Freedom Fighters are back together!". Other than that, they'd all have their own relationships like Bunnie and Antoine flirting or Rotor and Tails getting all technical with each other so other nearby characters get lost in the conversation.

Again, this wouldn't please everyone, nothing will considering some SatAM fans would want the games to change to accommodate SatAM's premise and some games fans would be unhappy if these characters appear at all, but that's not a good enough reason to deprive fans of these characters from any use of them. I also will note that these descriptions are all based on the idea they could appear in the games, if they were only going to appear in the IDW comics you could probably get away with some further deviation. For example, I think Sally still being a princess could probably still be implemented well in IDW, but in the games it'd be best for her not to be a princess.

That revamp of Sally is pretty novel.

[E-122-Psi]

3 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Pretty much.

Sally offers interaction most other game characters don't and that's with keeping her around just Sonic.

I dunno really. Most of Sally's key interactions were with the games cast, who had rather different personalities in SatAm and Archie. As said, I'm not really big on dumbing down Sonic, Tails and Eggman significantly just to work off of her. Big was interesting but even then it feels like something he could do as effectively with any lucid character.

Other than that, her chemistries with the original characters were kinda....generically passive. She got annoyed with Antoine sometimes for a few gags but that was about it. None of them really challenged her or brought out a different side to her or vice versa. Again, the mini series shown she was rather dull without Sonic to bounce off of, and even that chemistry got dumbed down as they decided not to spotlight Sally's haughty temper anymore.

I feel like in terms of her archetype with more fleshed out chemistries among a games-style cast, Boom Amy kinda works, because she doesn't save ALL her haughty neurotic tendencies just for Sonic and ONLY Sonic, and the others are perfectly willing to still tease her or show their annoyance when she acts up, without it seeming mean spirited (see Closed Door Policy). Amy also felt more challenged because not only was she undermined for her own flaws a lot more but she was trying to keep her eye out for a whole dysfunctional group, while Sally largely just mothered one naughty kid in a group of well behaved ones where the Freedom Fighters were concerned.

Then again I remember the comics writers didn't really do Boom Amy that well, she was just kind of a standard catty impatient prima donna, like Sally was in the earlier comics. I think they maybe struggle to make the busy body archetype sympathetic and well meaning, maybe why they downplayed that quirk for Sally so much.

3 hours ago, DabigRG said:

I swear I was gonna ask, what fuckin Wii game did you totally not play?

Well there's also an episode called 'Sonic Boom'.

[Kuzu]

Sonic is canonically reckless to the point of being prone of letting his guard down, Tails lacks initiative and boldness, and Eggman has always been prone to huge oversights despite his intelligence. All traits that Sally excels in. It's not "dumbing down their characters", it's actually highlighting the flaws they're supposed to have. I don't see how this is any different from how Sonic interacts with any of his other foils; Knuckles, Shadow, or Blaze don't make Sonic really look weak...but apparently Sally does because reasons? It feels like such an arbitrary complaint. 

Sally's interactions with other characters isn't really that dull either, and I say this somebody who doesn't really invest much in her. Bunnie kind of acts like older sister to her and grounds her, and Antoine is pretty much someone who actually does support her decision making and strategic prowess (in contrast to Sonic, who isn't as willing to comply due to his free-spirited nature...ya know, like a foil is supposed to do). If you don't care about any of that fine, but it's far from nothing. 

[E-122-Psi]

6 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Sonic is canonically reckless to the point of being prone of letting his guard down, Tails lacks initiative and boldness, and Eggman has always been prone to huge oversights despite his intelligence. It's not "dumbing down their characters", it's actually highlighting the flaws they're supposed to have. I don't see how this is any different from how Sonic interacts with any of his other foils; Knuckles, Shadow, or Blaze don't make Sonic really look weak...but apparently Sally does because reasons? It feels like such an arbitrary complaint. 

Sally's interactions with other characters isn't really that dull either, and I say this somebody who doesn't really invest much in her. Bunnie kind of acts like older sister to her and grounds her, and Antoine is pretty much someone who actually does support her decision making and strategic prowess (in contrast to Sonic, who isn't as willing to comply due to his free-spirited nature...ya know, like a foil is supposed to do). If you don't care about any of that fine, but it's far from nothing. 

Yeah, but the thing is with Sally, they have a tendency to flanderize these aspects of them so her straight man archetype can flourish. Sonic becomes barely able to go a single story without doing something stupidly impulsive or arrogant, Tails becomes more of a helpless kid, and Eggman needs to be purest evil. Again we need BALANCE or Sally's personality to at least compromise better so both their flaws and their strengths as characters can be demonstrated (eg. more Season One style role reversals where Sonic can be straight man to Sally's own hypocritical or busybody traits).

It's hard to say Bunnie 'grounds' her when she's already the straight man, and as I mentioned earlier, while there was potential with her chemistry with Antoine, they never really went into it much. It just feels like something they didn't dabble much with, even if the potential was there. Again, the other Freedom Fighters were the well behaved 'good kids' who rarely got their own flaws showcased compared to Sonic.

These aspects were apparent in Sonic Boom as well for example, but I guess the key there is that Boom was a whole group of dysfunctional characters who all took their fair turn suffering parables or falling for Eggman's trick of the week. It wasn't just Sonic and maybe the comic relief always having to act up every week like it was by the end of SatAm. Again Amy was the fill-in for Sally's role and they were far more willing to have role reversals for her or outright point out when Amy was just full of hot air.

[Kuzu]

Are you going to keep talking about things that happened in the past that have no bearing on current events any time someone tries to actually speak about potential positives. Because I'm starting to think you're not interested in actually having a discussion, but rather saying the same points and hoping someone agrees with you. 

Because at this point, I see no reason to continue talking about this if all I'm going to be met with is "but they did bad things in the past" and nothing more. 

[E-122-Psi]

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

Are you going to keep talking about things that happened in the past that have no bearing on current events any time someone tries to actually speak about potential positives. Because I'm starting to think you're not interested in actually having a discussion, but rather saying the same points and hoping someone agrees with you. 

Because at this point, I see no reason to continue talking about this if all I'm going to be met with is "but they did bad things in the past" and nothing more. 

You're pretty much doing the same thing but with the good side of things. You have done as little to offer a compromise or how they could practically insert the Freedom Fighters without sacrificing the games characterisations and lore (besides derogatory remarks like there not being any in the first place).

[Kuzu]

I literally just talked about how Sally potentially highlights flaws in Sonic, Tails, and Eggman and her relationship with Bunnie and Antoine. You completely ignored that to instead talk about how badly she was written in the past. Again.

Any time someone brings up a potential positive about the character; you counter it with a negative to deflect the conversation to talking negatively about her and how they've handled her badly in the past. You have been doing this for twelve straight pages and you're continuing to do it right now. 

This is why I find engaging in this topic extremely difficult; because it feels like you don't want to have an actual discussion, but an echo chamber to agree with you. I'm not interested in being a sycophant and I don't think anyone else is either. 

 

People are trying to have a legit discussion about this, but anytime someone does; you try to force the topic into a direction of you wanting to rant about how badly Sally and the Freedom Fighters have been written. Again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And you will probably continuing doing this again and again again because for some reason, you can't talk about anything else it seems. I think everyone has literally gotten the point about how they have been written in the past already, so it would be nice if we could talk about something else but I suppose that's not going to happen any time soon. 

So I'm content just leaving this topic alone if you aren't going to talk about literally anything else. 

[E-122-Psi]

15 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I literally just talked about how Sally potentially highlights flaws in Sonic, Tails, and Eggman and her relationship with Bunnie and Antoine. You completely ignored that to instead talk about how badly she was written in the past. Again.

Any time someone brings up a potential positive about the character; you counter it with a negative to deflect the conversation to talking negatively about her and how they've handled her badly in the past. You have been doing this for twelve straight pages and you're continuing to do it right now. 

This is why I find engaging in this topic extremely difficult; because it feels like you don't want to have an actual discussion, but an echo chamber to agree with you. I'm not interested in being a sycophant and I don't think anyone else is either. 

 

People are trying to have a legit discussion about this, but anytime someone does; you try to force the topic into a direction of you wanting to rant about how badly Sally and the Freedom Fighters have been written. Again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And you will probably continuing doing this again and again again because for some reason, you can't talk about anything else it seems. I think everyone has literally gotten the point about how they have been written in the past already, so it would be nice if we could talk about something else but I suppose that's not going to happen any time soon. 

So I'm content just leaving this topic alone if you aren't going to talk about literally anything else. 

Yes, you have brought up the positives Sally instils in the medias she was previously in, but refuse to highlight the flaws they came with because 'they're the past, they won't happen this time'.

Each of your arguments to how Sally and the Freedom Fighters could co-exist with the games universe have been over-generalisations that feel more like apathy towards the games canon and questioning whether anything of value would be lost anyway:

* They could flanderize the games characters. "Well those traits are there anyway, execution and level aside. Same basic thing."

* They could muck up the games lore. "WHAT lore?"

* They could be handled in a way that alienates previous fans. "Well someone's gonna be upset anyway in this fanbase!"

* They could imbalance limelight for the games characters. "Oh boo hoo, your favourite character doesn't get used as much."

All your arguments reek of the same equally dismissive and uncompromising attitude, that we shouldn't think about 'ifs' in regards to this and to stop raining on your parade. Even I have at least set up some comparisons to previous handlings throughout the franchise in how they could solve this and still make their basic characters work (eg. using Season One Sally or Boom Amy as reference for her character and dynamic handling), but you think even just suggesting those problems might potentially occur is tedious and negative and nothing could possibly be worse than what we have now anyway.

Like it or not, some people DO care about the games lore, and they DO care about how the Freedom Fighters could be utilised. You wanna discuss their potential then we have to tackle these ugly aspects, otherwise, well, we just end up how Sally did in the comics really. You don't want me to repeat these concerns then actually give a palpable answer besides 'Stop whining!' to the same repetitive level.

[Wraith]

If someone likes Sally they probably thought her portrayal in the comics was fine and that the games should be more like the comics anyway(iI was. They should be.)

[E-122-Psi]

19 minutes ago, Wraith said:

If someone likes Sally they probably thought her portrayal in the comics was fine and that the games should be more like the comics anyway(iI was. They should be.)

Well personally I found Archie and its handling of Sally to be infuriating at times and I don't want that element to be carried over into the games and causing me a headache there as well. I also know I'm not alone in this opinion because Sally is one of the most divisive characters in the franchise, if not THE most. That's not just a few fans to throw under the bus if they don't like how she turns out.

I liked Sally in SatAm and saw a lot of potential in her character, but its worse moments and Archie shown me that done wrong can have very unpleasant consequences on the story, world and cast around her. Fair enough for something like Dash or Speed Battle where this problem will likely be null anyway, but if you want to convince me and other skeptics that this idea could work in main format and Sally as a developed games character will not fall into the same divisive handling that set the show and comics' fanbase apart, I'll need a more valid counter argument besides "Well who cares, shut up."

[Wraith]

2 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Well personally I found Archie and its handling of Sally to be infuriating at times and I don't want that element to be carried over into the games and causing me a headache there as well. I also know I'm not alone in this opinion because Sally is one of the most divisive characters in the franchise, if not THE most.

Ehhhh I think this thread kinda proves that most people either like her or are apathetic towards her. Compare to a Shadow or Silver thread and you have a different story. "Most divisive" probably belongs to a character that isn't a niche part of the franchise in the first place and has probably been in enough main Sonic games for most people to have an opinion. 

You're making this out to be a bigger deal than it actually is. 

2 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I liked Sally in SatAm and saw a lot of potential in her character, but its worse moments and Archie shown me that done wrong can have very unpleasant consequences on the world and cast around her. Fair enough for something like Dash where this problem will likely be null anyway, but if you want to convince me and other skeptics that this idea could work in main format and Sally as a developed games character will not fall into the same divisive handling that set the show and comics' fanbase apart, I'll need a more valid counter argument besides "Well who cares, shut up."

There's no counter argument to "they might do this", especially when it was a lot of stuff I either didn't mind or was so minor I didn't notice. And you're guilty of framing your arguments as larger and more contentious than they actually are so I don't mind saying "No most people don't think that way so it would actually not cause much of a disturbance." Or "Fringe Sonic fans online use arguing as a replacement for social interaction so there's no point in designing games with the intent of getting them to stop." That's just a reality check. If you want to just keep it real and frame your arguments as yours alone that would be a different story, but that be an admission that Sally wouldn't actually disturb the peace that much.  

And no I don't really care about the games canon vs the comics since at the end of the day they aren't actually that different from eachother. I can't care too much about the extremely exaggerated tonal difference and ignore...literally everything else they have in common. All the times the comics took an idea or character or relationship straight from the games and straight up fleshed them out to be better, richer or distinctly less obnoxious. Shadowfall gets right down to what makes most Shadow stories compelling while trimming most of the fat that plagued the times they tried it in the games. The Werehog actually taps into Sonic's emotional state instead of being strictly a physical mutation. Silver's personality has been flanderized in the right ways to straight up make him more bearable to be around. Classic characters are brought back, redesigned and actually given a place in the world instead of being walking references. Sally is a "foil" to Sonic that he actually has a healthy, positive back and forth with. One that appears often instead of popping up once and immediately being tied to another character that she has a far less interesting dynamic with(cough my icon). The fact that she fights puts her several leagues above most of Sonic's friends pre Forces.  She doesn't just kick back on her tablet and talk shit the whole time while contributing nothing tangible. Even when they don't get it all right, at least there's a lot of respect for the source material here. Enough to pull many, many concepts directly from it or as close as they could get to that.

Honestly, a lot of the time you have brought up the game canon in this topic it turned out you were getting things crossed with Sonic Boom instead. I got sick of Sonic Boom after 10 episodes and didn't want to touch it again, so if what you actually want is for the games and comics to be like that we're just gonna have to agree to disagree. 

[Sean]

2 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

You're pretty much doing the same thing but with the good side of things. You have done as little to offer a compromise or how they could practically insert the Freedom Fighters without sacrificing the games characterisations and lore (besides derogatory remarks like there not being any in the first place).

Several members have called you out on your habit of ignoring points and repeating yourself on the next page, and everyone knows that you're going to just keep doing it, so truthfully, answer me this: why should anyone continue to engage in further discussion with you?

[Zaysho]

3 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

* They could flanderize the games characters. "Well those traits are there anyway, execution and level aside. Same basic thing."

* They could muck up the games lore. "WHAT lore?"

* They could be handled in a way that alienates previous fans. "Well someone's gonna be upset anyway in this fanbase!"

* They could imbalance limelight for the games characters. "Oh boo hoo, your favourite character doesn't get used as much."

1. They could, but how is this risk any different from what's been done with the active roster?

2. Are we really going to act like no one in this entire thread has not made suggestions on how to incorporate the characters without disrupting the apparently sacred lore of SONIC THE HEDGEHOG? Lore so sacred, Sega changes how its world even functions on a whim regardless of how earlier games portrayed something? Or did I imagine all the blowback from gems like "TWO WORLDS"?

3. That's inherently a risk when creating new incarnations of anything. This happens with every IP, and Sonic isn't special or different in that regard. The Archie reboot wasn't without its detractors, but not everything is going to be 100% perfect. If the core is there, things'll be fine.

4. Have you played a Sonic game in the last decade? Tell me how balanced those have been in terms of character representation or portrayal, because I didn't see a single benefit from it going back and forth between "SONIC AND TAILS ONLY" to "EVERYONE IS HERE" at the drop of a hat when none of the scenarios were written well. Colors barely has nothing interesting happen to or around its limited cast, and the one thing that does happen is in a single cutscene and is barely explored beyond "DIS IS BAD SONIC!" Generations mostly features characters talking about how great Sonic is. I can't even remember what Lost World did beyond some fake friction between Sonic and Tails and Eggman apparently being the greatest character. Forces just has an assortment of characters yell at you over a radio.

The writers being bad at their jobs isn't the fault of the characters, and this is an argument that people have had on this board hundreds of times already over actual game characters. I was a much more outspoken fanboy of Shadow on this message board between 2014-15 and I put up with the same exact nonsense over what to do with him.

  

3 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

Well personally I found Archie and its handling of Sally to be infuriating at times and I don't want that element to be carried over into the games and causing me a headache there as well.

I'm curious if you can wrap your head around the fact that April O'Neil has been a scientist, a news reporter, a ninja, a fucking drawing come to life, an adult, a teenager, white, or black across a dizzying number of continuities in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

Not every version was perfect and likely came with their own set of flaws (I haven't watched or read every single version but I have an idea of what I liked and don't), but those didn't make the character. You think because she was a damsel in distress for a good chunk of Fred Wolf or sitting around not really doing anything most of the time like she was in Mirage those remain active traits in her other incarnations, even ones based on those two versions? Archie introduced the ninja concept for her and that book started out as a direct adaptation of the 80s cartoon. She was a very active supporting character in 2003, which was based on Mirage where she was frankly the least interesting character for most of volume 1's run, the primary source material for much of the 2003 series.

Maybe, just maybe the past doesn't have to dictate every little thing about a character in a new continuity. People are talking about the positives and potential Sally and the other characters would have because they see the good in them and are trying to follow what little logic following the games provides to establish a middle ground.

The potential issues that would arise because Sonic Team and Sega write bad, or because of mishandling in the past aren't actually worth considering at this point when you've made it clear that nothing anyone says will ever sell you on her.