Rally 4 Sally

[DabigRG]

Okay I'm back playing catch-up and I'm gonna look at the stuff that actually raises a point to respond to.

On 8/24/2020 at 3:22 PM, E-122-Psi said:

The Sally mini series if anything shown Sally's problems being a main character, a straight man isn't that interesting as the lead, and without Sonic to banter with she was pretty dull, needing her supporting cast to act up instead (and who gives a crap about Hamlin? :P). I think this is why Sally ended up so divisive, since they kept milking her a main character while never bulking up her personality outside that of a supporting one. Of course a straight man will be seen as 'boring' or a 'Mary Sue' in the eyes of some, because they aren't really designed to get so much focus that their lack of foibles and negative qualities becomes an issue.

I stand by the idea that if they wanted to push her as a main character then they should not have withdrawn Sally's earlier busybody personality (especially since they tend to reflexively write her as arrogant anyway, just in an accidental 'designated hero' sort of way).

 

On 8/25/2020 at 11:33 PM, antyep said:

The problem with that mini series was that Penders wrote it, for Sally had less screen time than Geoffery, and that Sally was a robot the whole time. Penders spent more time on his character than the character the mini series was meant for.

 

On 8/25/2020 at 11:58 PM, E-122-Psi said:

Which I think only furthers the idea that he didn't really find her interesting compared to his definitely-not-a-pedo-skunk.

Even more so keeping in mind Penders wanted to KILL OFF Sally in Endgame because he thought she'd served her purpose (and yet brought in what was basically just a male version of Sally to take over the baggage of most of her individual role afterwards).

I feel like a lot of the time Penders wasn't really interested in the marketed characters and just used them as a wraparound of sorts for stories with his own OCs. Even in the Knuckles comics, which he was allowed more leeway over, Knuckles became less and less developed compared to his own echidnas.

 

On 8/26/2020 at 12:20 AM, antyep said:

He didn't find any of the Sonic character interesting, mostly because they're teenagers, and mostly because he didn't have much control over them as he did with Knuckles. And not only he tried to kill off Sally because he thought she served her purpose, but it's because of how her mini-series didn't do so well, which, again, was mostly staring his definitely-not-a-pedo-skunk than Sally (And I guess cuz it was marketed toward boys who were afraid to buy a "girly" comic. It was the nineties).

Penders isn't the best example when talking about Sally, to be honest.

To be fair to him on the Miniseries, that was largely on Sega.

It happened because they wanted to test the waters in officially making Sally a bigger name on a couple of fronts and the comics were the obvious/only thing to naturally do it with at the time. As such, they also had a bigger eye on what that trial was so as to gauge particular reactions somehow.

Penders' original intention was to do a Thelma and Louise (lolwut) style story where Sally and Bunnie explored underground Robotropolis and encounter group of mutants(citation needed?) led by the roboticized Queen Alicia. Sega didnt like this pitch, however, and eventually approved the one that included her cadets, Geoffrey, and the Auto Automaton.

On 8/27/2020 at 3:01 PM, GentlemanX said:

At the time, Ian and company said everything in the OVA was off limits to them either because Sega said so or because the OVA was owned by Studio Pierrot. This even extended as far as Knuckles' iconic hat, which is why folks like Ian and Jon were so crazy excited when Treasure Hunter Knuckles got announced for Sonic Dash. If there were any rights issues they seem to have been resolved and Sega seems okay with at least some of their branches now using content from it, the live stream even talked about it at length last episode asking if fans had seen it and noting fans seemed to want a rerelease. This could be for a variety of reasons. If I were to speculate, I'd say it might be due to the popularity of Hesse's animations for Mania, both the initial trailers and opening and then later Mania Adventures. Those are all clearly heavily inspired by the OVA and the Sonic CD opening and I think they decided that meant the OVA was worth dusting off the shelf.

The what now?

On 8/28/2020 at 3:32 AM, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Fuck yeah! I’d definitely love a playable Sally that flipped around and kicked ass like Kim Possible.

Damn, now that I think of it, Sally and Kim have a lot in common, only difference being royalty and leadership skills what with Kim usually working by herself or a small group of 2-3 people (with exceptions, it’s been a while since I’ve watched Kim Possible).

She did have some form of acrobatics in a few episodes/issues, now that you mention it.

On 8/28/2020 at 7:48 AM, A Random Villager said:

What sort of things do you think worked that you'd keep? Personally, I'd keep her caring side, being like family to others, whether as a sister, aunt or whatever. I'd also keep the strategic side to her, coming up with plans to thwart Eggman's schemes. More a thinker, less a fighter. Not to say she couldn't fight, goodness no. Just think she'd be more of a strategist than a brawler. Hmm, maybe Sonic Forces' resistance might of lost less troops if she was in charge rather than Knuckles and his made-in-two-minutes tactics (Seriously Knuckles, put more time into your plans! People are relying on you!)

To be fair, the reason that failed had more to do with Infinite showing up when he was supposed to be elsewhere as well. I imagine if the levels weren't roughly two minutes long, that would've happened halfway through the level rather than not long after it started.

.

On 8/28/2020 at 5:32 PM, Celestia said:

The reboot already made it so Sonic didn't meet them as kids and literally nobody on the entire planet cared. I don't think anyone would mind seeing him meet them for the first time in a new continuity, except for people that for some reason can't wrap their heads around the idea of new continuities, something that for some reason I only see with Sonic fans.

I also don't see why locations associated them would have to be dropped? If SEGA owns them they must own those concepts too. Again though if they just called it something else nobody would care, lol.

I mean it did--they weren't allowed to openly say such, but those were clearly the Blast to the Past era Freedom Fighters with totally not Classic Sonic iirc.

On 8/28/2020 at 11:06 PM, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I can take or leave some of the stuff from older continuities but I'm still hoping they start allowing for some of the established main cast to get more of a push too. They're so stingy when it comes to these characters nowadays. Even back then, I couldn't play a Riders game without wondering where the Chaotix were in the roster. They were gone. Not there. What about Omega? Nope. Maybe you'll see him at the Olympics? Nope. He's not even in that anymore. 

Thankfully, TSR saw him making a comeback in a meaningful, playable way and not just as another skin in a mobile game but I'm still waiting for the day where they'll be comfortable utilizing their roster like it's Mario Kart or Smash Bros. in their spin-offs.

Like, speaking of Charmy, I probably don't even need to mention that Charmy's playability has been relegated to mobile games pretty much exclusively. Hell, Espio isn't much better. He gets like a side-gig in the Olympics for one event and that's it. 

I'll drink to a brighter future anyway.

Well, not drink. I don't drink.

Maybe I'll have a hard lemonade.

Good things have happened and its important to recognize when they do after all. 

That's honestly the biggest issue with brining in more characters into the greater series, especially if they aren't gonna fill a space that isn't shared by an existing one.

Didn't help Espio, Charmy, and for a long time Wave and Storm are very much in the fringe of the cast's must haves because they were effectively the Deadly Six to Vector and Jet's Zavok.

On 8/29/2020 at 12:57 PM, Zaysho said:

Sally and company literally do not have to be main protagonists any more than Shadow or Blaze have to. They're supporting characters. This isn't a difficult idea but every time this topic gets broached it's always some worst case scenario where everything about the old versions must inform the new ones in a completely different continuity and therefore are just too hard to explain or incorporate.
 

Because princess of a furry kingdom being threatened by Eggman Sonic helps out for a game is just too weird for this series I guess.

There I've just written the elevator pitch to explain the character if put in a game. And that's a step beyond the original intention of just wanting her in a mobile game where everyone plays the same.

That's basically how most of the recurring characters were handled anyway.

 

On 8/29/2020 at 12:57 PM, Zaysho said:

Was Blaze a threat to Amy too because she had a starring, playable role in two handheld games?

I'm sorry a topic about a specific character is not also covering your favorite character that literally no one is telling you you can't have. And that's even considering I joked about the character and clarified I don't care if she came back but is at the back of the line. When there's a movement for Sticks nobody is going to stop you from gushing about her.

I don't at all agree with Jack, but it is worth noting that Amy's rise as a heroine did stop around Blaze's introduction.

On 8/29/2020 at 2:02 PM, Pengi said:

It's a very silly complaint. Character "slots" aren't a finite resource in today's games, in terms of number - it's about time and manpower. If the 7 Koopalings weren't in MK8, that doesn't mean there would be 7 diverse and unique characters in their place. The Koopalings essentially have the same bodies, with different proportions. It's less time and resource intensive to turn a Larry into a Ludwig and a Morton into a Roy than it is to create 7 models from scratch for 7 completely different characters.

Rotor is the weak link of the group, since the core cast already has an inventor in Tails. The reboot played Rotor up as a strong guy, but that's not a unique trait either.

To get around the overlap they'd probably have to be treated as a distinct group, like the Babylon Rogues or the Chaotix Detective Agency.

Honestly, yeah. The Freedom Fighters could easily just remain that or the Ambadassadors of Acorn or something instead of joining the cast as individual mainstays.

 

On 8/29/2020 at 3:22 PM, Wraith said:

I don't know about ya'll but if Tails was relieved a bit of his smart guy exposition role I think that would be a good thing for him. Gives them a little more room to bring some more of his old childish and endearing traits back. 

 

On 8/29/2020 at 3:50 PM, E-122-Psi said:

The thing is even if they trade Mr Expositioner to Rotor, well.......why would that be a GOOD thing? It just means the most boring role in the group is traded from Tails to him instead.

Rotor's harder to really place in, since he didn't really grasp a prominent "shtick" besides being the tech guy, and often even the slithers of personality he did demonstrate otherwise felt occupied more strongly by other characters, eg. being the cute dork in early SatAm like Tails, or a more headstrong contrarian in the reboot like Knuckles. I feel like the main reason Penders tried to do that homosexual reveal was as a cheap grab at making him seem more interesting.

Brings me back to those arguments a few years back and my view on it is still a variation of "If Mighty can't be strong just so Knuckles can be strong, that sounds like a different problem outside of him."

Heck, I at least see where the Cream "replaces" Amy stuff was being derived from now.

On 8/29/2020 at 3:50 PM, E-122-Psi said:

One possible idea I had concerning the Freedom Fighters entering the games world is take their more lucid personalities and make them the "Logical Latecomer". Maybe they could revive Sally's rivalry with Sonic by making her the one to question the insanity of the whole dynamic between him and Eggman, why he treats it like a game and hasn't just....got rid of him already. For Rotor....maybe they could take his geekiness in a playful way and make him a bit meta, like the guy who knows and savours every action cliche that goes on, without being too obnoxiously fourth wall breaking of course (this is Satam, not Boom :P).

Like I said in the Tails thread, most of the best characters have at least two juxtoposing traits, it's just a matter of keeping both in balance so they don't end up one note gags. Boom Tails knew how to intertwine both the genius and childlike aspects in a funny way that gave him an agency, so he had plenty of fuel to work off of.

Ooh, that would be an interesting and ironic way to approach them.

On 8/29/2020 at 3:59 PM, E-122-Psi said:

I think I maybe took Wraith's suggestion too literally.

I would like more 'smart' characters that weren't just 'all around smart and sensible' though. They're kinda dull after a while. Intelligence comes in all sorts of different areas, you can be a genius in one and an imbecile in another. I think that's why I thought early Sonic vs Sally was more vibrant since it was 'street smarts vs academic smarts' with both of them acting pretty arrogant and childish outside their niche.

I think it's why I'm so damn possessive of Tails acting like a attention seeking child since I find his genius role on its own to be rather dull. He needs some quirks to pepper his actions and dialogue so he's not just the exposition machine with the personality of a senior. Same for me concerning busybody Sally or clumsy nerd Rotor, even if those quirks aren't NEARLY as iconic to their characters anymore.

I think I'm just repeating myself again though.

 

On 8/29/2020 at 4:00 PM, Zaysho said:

Character roles and archetypes are not some job position that has to be filled by one character and if another comes along that other character has to go and be forgotten.

Tails is young and can be more inexperienced. Still obviously bright, but with some glaring oversights in how he builds and designs machines (he forgot to include a landing gear in the Tornado 2's second mode so there's a precedent for the canon people). Instead of the idea that Rotor is taking over the role of "smart guy" or "inventor," why wouldn't it be that Tails has someone else to bounce off of?

Yeah, I don't why it's common for some things to just oversimplify/hyperfocus on  certain character types like that.

On 8/29/2020 at 4:47 PM, Kuzu said:

I feel like the largest problem with Rotor and the rest of the Freedom Fighters isn't necessarily what roles they'd occupy, but rather a common one that's plagued this series for years.....too many characters and not enough focus to go around. 

Some characters are just...inevitably going to fall by the wayside, especially when most of the series` story beats will revolve around Sonic and whoever is around him. I don't think Tails necessarily got "boring", but most of the time he showed up before, the focus of the story was on someone else and didn't leave him with much to do.  When a character inevitably falls out of focus, their characterization is going to suffer for it. 

 

I do think a real fear is having the Freedom Fighters overtake the main cast positions that people are used to seeing filled by Tails, Knuckles, and Amy..but like...you literally cannot develop these characters unless you let them have the spotlight, and that means that some fan favorites will get shafted. There seems to be this dichotomy that everyone has have their favorite characters around at all times, when that's not how storytelling works. 

 

On 8/29/2020 at 5:48 PM, Your Vest Friend said:

I feel the biggest obstacle to getting the Freedom Fighters in anything like the mobile game cameo people are vying for is the pesky classic/modern divide more than the roles the Freedom Fighters could fill to be honest. As much as they've been retooled for the modern era, their roots are firmly in the classic era, so if SEGA see them as classic characters that stops any chance of a cameo outside a classic branch property (of which there has been one so far), as demonstrated quite obviously by themselves so far.

Adapting their place in the canon wouldn't be so difficult if they could get the foot in the door in the first place. They're not above tearing a character down to rebuild them to suit their needs.

Oh, that's a good point actually.

The reboot even opted to integrate them by having the kingdom of Acorn mainly be the islands from the original trilogy.

On 8/29/2020 at 5:48 PM, Shadowlax said:

I feel like it would be a bit presumptuous to think they wouldn't be in extremely limited roles in some regard. I don't even see sally's leadership skills ever coming into play in that way. Ian Flynn kind of spilled the beans that there are just things sega just uses with branding that's largely irrelevant to what they want to do at the moment. And I think that would be the case with the FF's . And i think that's a lot of peoples fear with the FF's well those who care, because...I don't really, but the fear is that they will be husks for branding. Some people would just be happy at the use other's not so much with capitalistic goring. Though some may argue that's the nature of the game when dealing corporate mascots, doesn't mean you have to enjoy though.

As for roles I generally agree that having multiple people in " roles " are fine and may actually flesh out what that roles means in the world how they handle it. Having different characters have different takes on where they are is interesting. Its what makes rouge and knuckles's dynamic interesting, or shadow's heroism different than others. Or Eggman or tails's uses for smarts it helps define the character further by showing what they aren't and what they are capable of. This isn't to say there can't be characters you find...superfluous , I feel that way about a lot of archie characters. But the premise ain't bad.

 

On 8/29/2020 at 5:48 PM, Shadowlax said:

So I agree with this

Issue is sega doesn't. Sega has always been kinda brand focused and they are now more so than possibly ever before. I want to remind you they banned the sonic boom team from making another smart character because only tails and eggman can be smart. They may have possibly backed off a wee bit because of platipus man. That said they may just think he fills a new role and doesn't really intrude on what they have going.

 

 

This is also the reason I don't think the FF are ever coming back. It feels like the direction at least with the comics is to create new sort of characters that fill those roles archie characters once did and focus on them. Considering Sonic team had a hand in their creation I think that's where they will stay

The what now?

[E-122-Psi]

6 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

The slap happened nearly two decades ago, and was called out on and apologised for on multiple occasions. 

If you're going to use that as the absolute bottom point to claim Sally as insufferable, you might as well also use Lost World's portrayal of Tails as being an arrogant little shit, Shadow's portrayal in his game as an insufferable edgelord 90% of the time, or Knuckles for nearly a decade of Penders' horrific history and crappy "Chosen One" lore for him. Using one writer's subpar portrayal as a character to define them is not only something you could literally apply to a massive array of characters, but using it as a basis for why they should never appear again under a new writer is silly.

Well people kind of DO use those points. Not as a point as to why to NEVER use them, but more a tragic case of how poor Sonic writing can often be and how misused its main cast often are, especially since these are all cases from different writers. Even higher received writers like Ian make some horrific botch ups like making Charmy brain damaged. You can say it's holding onto the past, but it KEEPS HAPPENING, hell the only reason they even TRIED to rectify the slap was because fans complained about it in enough excess, it doesn't really instil a lot of trust with how the cast can be written, since every new writer still finds a way to almost hilariously screw up a character.

4 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

To be fair, I don’t think he’s using the slap as a basis for why she shouldn’t appear again—although, I haven’t fully followed the debate as much over the past few days, so feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.

I do want to add that even considering the slap, Sally was given a complete blank slate come the reboot. Everything about her was much different while still retaining the core of who she is, so the slap no longer applies. I say this because that’s the idea I think people should gather towards when considering the idea of her reappearing—that characters can still recognized even with changes to their character.

People often think of Sally as Sonic’s love interest, yet the reboot showed she can work without any romantic attention toward Sonic; where she wasn’t as much of a fighter and more of a saboteur in certain cases, the reboot kept that trait and expanded her ability to fight with ring-blades; where people who don’t read Archie Sonic love to use the messy background with Penders’s run as a testament to bad characterization (hypocritical given that the games aren’t any better, if not worse in this area), the reboot wiped all that away and showed she can work with a whole new background without changing the fundamental parts of her character (as much as I wanted it kept when Ian actually made them good). That last part is noteworthy when people act like there’s no place she can fit—not only is that not true, but they can very easily find a place for Sally, especially given how much material she already has.

My general issue with reboot Sally is that they fiddled enough with her traits by then that she almost felt like a blank slate, since she almost seemed to switch to all sorts of traits according to what the story befit. She was now a headfirst combat characters despite ALSO being a strategist and a straight man. This isn't exactly mutually exclusive, except I don't really feel they had executed into a way that merged  all these traits into one cohesive style and character (the ring blades just didn't feel like Sally's methodical approach at all, it was just something to add to say she was badass) and AGAIN, they STILL kept making the same old mistakes, now only ten fold since Sally was a headfirst and reckless character as a default characteristic but still NEVER getting called out for chiding ANYONE ELSE for being such. Hell Spark of Life was about someone opposing her getting called out by HER being a hypocrite for not practicing what they preach in terms of reckless approaches. It was....dumbfounding....they STILL REFUSED to connect those dots about her. She can just somehow be ANYTHING without it making her an awkward contradiction of personality traits. The nearest to a flaw or foible they would accept is her being....bad at cooking. That's as ugly as they can take sweet perfect 'absolutely-NEVER-a-hypocrite-as-a-vice' Sal. Reboot Sally just furthered it to me that without those old crutches the writers didn't know AT ALL how to depict her besides 'stock 90s action girl'. She was just.....BLEH.

You guys say Tails infuriated you in Lost Worlds because he was written in a way that was in-cohesive and full of bullshit, yet at least this was only one game. This trait was just INHERENT to how they write Sally it seems. You say it was two decades ago, well in those two decades, things NEVER ALTERED.

[DabigRG]

On 9/2/2020 at 6:15 PM, E-122-Psi said:

Well if I try and recollect my earlier rambling, I think it's what sort of measures that SatAm/Archie Robotnik took that were pivotal to the FF's premise wouldn't be compatible with the games Eggman?

I was talking about the thread in general.

Honestly though, it'd be pretty easy to just have the Kingdom of Acorn get displaced in one of Eggman's schemes, such as getting rid of the King to keep him from hiding evidence of the Deep Power stones or to establish a Puppet King to carry out his will in that regard while roboticizing the citizens. The Freedom Fighters, led by the King's daughter, figure out something is up and use guerilla warfare to determine what's really going and eventually break Eggman's hold over their home.

Or you can do like either the reboot did with Angel Island or what some person once suggested here and have it instead be Snively, Naugus, or some other Subboss terrorizing them.

On 9/2/2020 at 11:21 PM, E-122-Psi said:

I dunno really. Most of Sally's key interactions were with the games cast, who had rather different personalities in SatAm and Archie. As said, I'm not really big on dumbing down Sonic, Tails and Eggman significantly just to work off of her. Big was interesting but even then it feels like something he could do as effectively with any lucid character.

Other than that, her chemistries with the original characters were kinda....generically passive. She got annoyed with Antoine sometimes for a few gags but that was about it. None of them really challenged her or brought out a different side to her or vice versa. Again, the mini series shown she was rather dull without Sonic to bounce off of, and even that chemistry got dumbed down as they decided not to spotlight Sally's haughty temper anymore.

I feel like in terms of her archetype with more fleshed out chemistries among a games-style cast, Boom Amy kinda works, because she doesn't save ALL her haughty neurotic tendencies just for Sonic and ONLY Sonic, and the others are perfectly willing to still tease her or show their annoyance when she acts up, without it seeming mean spirited (see Closed Door Policy). Amy also felt more challenged because not only was she undermined for her own flaws a lot more but she was trying to keep her eye out for a whole dysfunctional group, while Sally largely just mothered one naughty kid in a group of well behaved ones where the Freedom Fighters were concerned.

Then again I remember the comics writers didn't really do Boom Amy that well, she was just kind of a standard catty impatient prima donna, like Sally was in the earlier comics. I think they maybe struggle to make the busy body archetype sympathetic and well meaning, maybe why they downplayed that quirk for Sally so much.

That's why were talking about [re]establishing, working on, and refining her dynamics in a new context and with other characters than she's used to. To give a often repped example, you can pair up with Shadow for a mission or so and have them concur and conflict in ways that are inherently different from how she generally did with Sonic.

Even with the Freedom Fighters, the reboot used her among others to develop the changed motivations and backgrounds for Rotor and Nicole that could serve as a basis for them going forward.

On 9/2/2020 at 11:21 PM, E-122-Psi said:

Well there's also an episode called 'Sonic Boom'.

True dat.

[E-122-Psi]

I think this really why I'm defensive of the earlier more deliberate know-it-all take on Sally, because while some people find this archetype kind of unlikeable, I think it helps better flesh out her dynamics with the other characters and piece together her traits.

Take Spark of Life for example. We could say that NICOLE was taking the 'know it all' role in that one, pontificating over Sally's impulsiveness only to end up doing the same thing. The key difference here however is that NICOLE IS CALLED OUT ON IT. BY Sally no less. Her hypocrisies are thrown right in front of her, and she is made to show humility, explain she was just worried about everyone, and accept she has a lot more in common with the people she criticises and deems illogical that she believes. NICOLE has been a know-it-all per se, but a sympathetic and humbled know-it-all we have gotten introspective on in terms of her relations towards other characters. That flaw left an opening for a unique agency and dynamic among the cast and even contributed to the parable format a lot of Sonic stories have.

Now let's say they had done this with Sally in terms of a role reversal with Sonic, she chides his approach but then submits to pressure and does a dangerous move herself (which, let's be fair, this does in fact happen A LOT), but in this case, Sonic calls her out on it. She admits this and realises her similarities with the person she feuds with, that they are 'not so different'. This in fact would make Sally a rather three dimensional foil for Sonic, one that does point out his own failings, but is fallible to the same impulses and ego problems, just in different ways, a 'so different yet so similar' type dynamic. 

The key problem is that with Sally in all cases beforehand, this NEVER happens. They always designate Sally as the straight man, the person that DEALS humble pie rather than FACES it, even when she also has flaws to atone for. The straight man is all well and good as a foil, but it's much more one way and it only works if the character can add up to their integrity. THIS is the key thing they need to change if they want to connect the dots with her and click a three dimensional role for her, that Sally must have her turn acknowledging her own ego and similarities with the group, especially if they keep giving her the same role and approach where she will inevitably contradict herself again and again anyway, since I don't want her back just to have her smug hypocritical tendencies always enabled again.

[DabigRG]

I was trying to direct it more into how Rotor was characterized in addition to pointing out how Sonic Team and other writers could handle her differently, but sure. Nevermind that using Shadow(err, before the last two or so years) should've implied an inherent distance from her comfort zone.

But hey, since you once again brought up Spark of Life, I'll say it seemed like it was trying to hit on the Sonic parallel while also playing on how Nicole, as an artificial being, would mainly see Sally jumping off the ship to save someone she knows can fly unlike her as an unnecessary risk without immediately taking into account how emotions can drive someone to do something like that.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

On 9/4/2020 at 7:34 AM, E-122-Psi said:

My general issue with reboot Sally is that they fiddled enough with her traits by then that she almost felt like a blank slate, since she almost seemed to switch to all sorts of traits according to what the story befit. She was now a headfirst combat characters despite ALSO being a strategist and a straight man. This isn't exactly mutually exclusive, except I don't really feel they had executed into a way that merged  all these traits into one cohesive style and character (the ring blades just didn't feel like Sally's methodical approach at all, it was just something to add to say she was badass) and AGAIN, they STILL kept making the same old mistakes, now only ten fold since Sally was a headfirst and reckless character as a default characteristic but still NEVER getting called out for chiding ANYONE ELSE for being such. Hell Spark of Life was about someone opposing her getting called out by HER being a hypocrite for not practicing what they preach in terms of reckless approaches. It was....dumbfounding....they STILL REFUSED to connect those dots about her. She can just somehow be ANYTHING without it making her an awkward contradiction of personality traits. The nearest to a flaw or foible they would accept is her being....bad at cooking. That's as ugly as they can take sweet perfect 'absolutely-NEVER-a-hypocrite-as-a-vice' Sal. Reboot Sally just furthered it to me that without those old crutches the writers didn't know AT ALL how to depict her besides 'stock 90s action girl'. She was just.....BLEH.

You guys say Tails infuriated you in Lost Worlds because he was written in a way that was in-cohesive and full of bullshit, yet at least this was only one game. This trait was just INHERENT to how they write Sally it seems. You say it was two decades ago, well in those two decades, things NEVER ALTERED.

Didn’t have enough time to get to this, so sorry for the late response.

Here’s the thing: Alternate Settings have Alternate Rules. And characters will be tweaked to fit within those rules—their core personalities will (and should) remain the same to recognize the character no matter what setting they’re in, but modifications are still to be expected.

We see this even with the main hero, Sonic himself: his core personality is a wise-cracking teenager who takes pride in being the fastest thing alive, and someone who can, will, and has fight against any authority—good or ill—that gets in the way of what he knows is the right thing to do.

But beyond that gist, his incarnations differ: his game version is different from his AoSTH incarnation, where things were a bit loose and looney; these are both in turn different from his SatAM incarnation where he was a freedom fighter against a mechanized, planet wide empire; these are in turn different to his Underground incarnation where he was a prince with a brother and sister fighting against mechanized tyranny; and so forth all the way up to his Movie incarnation. But in all versions, his core personality remains and acts based on the circumstances of the setting.
 

Likewise, Sally will have changes to her even as she retains her core personality of a leader figure who may make a fuss when things don’t go as planned. She’s completely different in her AoSTH incarnation where she was first introduced than she is in SatAM, which in turn is different to her incarnation in the early days of Archie where she’s be more at home in AoSTH. And with changes to the Archie Sonic setting come the reboot, circumstances are going to have her not be the same exact Sally in any incarnation before given the new setting, and she is adapted according to that among other factors that make her viable in the setting. Should she be adapted in IDW or even the games, I expect her to still be a leader figure that looks out for others and squint at any deviations and setbacks that occur on her watch, but that’s the bare minimum while everything else is likely to change suit based on how she’s adapted into the setting.

Again, alternate settings have alternate rules. Granted, not all of them are likely to be to one’s preference—I personally don’t like how Shadow and Knuckles are adapted in the setting of Sonic Boom, but they still retain a lot of their core personalities (granted, I don’t know too much about Boom to make that assessment, so feel free to correct me on any errors here).

 

[E-122-Psi]

44 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Didn’t have enough time to get to this, so sorry for the late response.

Here’s the thing: Alternate Settings have Alternate Rules. And characters will be tweaked to fit within those rules—their core personalities will (and should) remain the same to recognize the character no matter what setting they’re in, but modifications are still to be expected.

We see this even with the main hero, Sonic himself: his core personality is a wise-cracking teenager who takes pride in being the fastest thing alive, and someone who can, will, and has fight against any authority—good or ill—that gets in the way of what he knows is the right thing to do.

But beyond that gist, his incarnations differ: his game version is different from his AoSTH incarnation, where things were a bit loose and looney; these are both in turn different from his SatAM incarnation where he was a freedom fighter against a mechanized, planet wide empire; these are in turn different to his Underground incarnation where he was a prince with a brother and sister fighting against mechanized tyranny; and so forth all the way up to his Movie incarnation. But in all versions, his core personality remains and acts based on the circumstances of the setting.
 

Likewise, Sally will have changes to her even as she retains her core personality of a leader figure who may make a fuss when things don’t go as planned. She’s completely different in her AoSTH incarnation where she was first introduced than she is in SatAM, which in turn is different to her incarnation in the early days of Archie where she’s be more at home in AoSTH. And with changes to the Archie Sonic setting come the reboot, circumstances are going to have her not be the same exact Sally in any incarnation before given the new setting, and she is adapted according to that among other factors that make her viable in the setting. Should she be adapted in IDW or even the games, I expect her to still be a leader figure that looks out for others and squint at any deviations and setbacks that occur on her watch, but that’s the bare minimum while everything else is likely to change suit based on how she’s adapted into the setting.

Again, alternate settings have alternate rules. Granted, not all of them are likely to be to one’s preference—I personally don’t like how Shadow and Knuckles are adapted in the setting of Sonic Boom, but they still retain a lot of their core personalities (granted, I don’t know too much about Boom to make that assessment, so feel free to correct me on any errors here).

 

I get that but it felt like that, unlike those examples you mentioned with other characters, reboot Sally wasn't really retooled to adapt to any other specific set of characteristics, and was just kinda of the same character but even more non-descript in her core. Granted I could argue her last few appearances in the pre-reboot were kind of the same deal lower key (eg. making her just as up-front and impulsive as Sonic, while never developing it into an in-universe foible), so it was less adapting her to the new settings and just this gradual devolution.

Like Boom Knuckles is a drastic change from early games Knuckles and some other previous portrayals but they at least had a distinct direction there. Later Archie Sally felt like besides the base characteristics you mentioned, they had no idea what else to do with her and just had her act however fit from story to story without it ever changing her designated role (eg. early Sally squinted at deviations because she was a cautious character who didn't like dangerous risks, later Sally squinted just because and then approved of doing the same thing, the new dynamic for her doesn't really have a consistent drive like the original, not even one that is different).

Using AoSth Sally is kinda cheating by the way because all she had was a non-speaking cameo in the Christmas Special.

[DabigRG]

38 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I get that but it felt like that, unlike those examples you mentioned with other characters, reboot Sally wasn't really retooled to adapt to any other specific set of characteristics, and was just kinda of the same character but even more non-descript in her core. Granted I could argue her last few appearances in the pre-reboot were kind of the same deal lower key (eg. making her just as up-front and impulsive as Sonic, while never developing it into an in-universe foible), so it was less adapting her to the new settings and just this gradual devolution.

Like Boom Knuckles is a drastic change from early games Knuckles and some other previous portrayals but they at least had a distinct direction there. Later Archie Sally felt like besides the base characteristics you mentioned, they had no idea what else to do with her and just had her act however fit from story to story without it ever changing her designated role (eg. early Sally squinted at deviations because she was a cautious character who didn't like dangerous risks, later Sally squinted just because and then approved of doing the same thing, the new dynamic for her doesn't really have a consistent drive like the original, not even one that is different).

Using AoSth Sally is kinda cheating by the way because all she had was a non-speaking cameo in the Christmas Special.

Honestly, Reboot Sally, in addition to trying to get to some of the roots mentioned while being brought more in line with the Sega cast, was consciously scaled back in prominence where possible due to how many characters were assisting the Freedom Fighters now, an initiative to give more bigger focus to the other core members, and maybe a bit of the previous criticism from SatAM season 2.

Though the fact that her background was about as bloated as Knuckles in addition to the 130-159 era drama probably had something to do with it as well.

[E-122-Psi]

34 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Honestly, Reboot Sally, in addition to trying to get to some of the roots mentioned while being brought more in line with the Sega cast, was consciously scaled back in prominence where possible due to how many characters were assisting the Freedom Fighters now, an initiative to give more bigger focus to the other core members, and maybe a bit of the previous criticism from SatAM season 2.

Though the fact that her background was about as bloated as Knuckles in addition to the 130-159 era drama probably had something to do with it as well.

Streamlined background and limelight I didn't mind, it's the personality (and to some degree the design and agency) I wasn't big on, which seemed parts they kept and exacerbated from the closing points before the reboot anyway.

[DabigRG]

22 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Streamlined background and limelight I didn't mind, it's the personality (and to some degree the design and agency) I wasn't big on, which seemed parts they kept and exacerbated from the closing points before the reboot anyway.

Eh, probably. Where do you think it started then?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

I get that but it felt like that, unlike those examples you mentioned with other characters, reboot Sally wasn't really retooled to adapt to any other specific set of characteristics, and was just kinda of the same character but even more non-descript in her core.

Well...yeah.

She basically had most of the development she had prior to her reboot wiped from continuity and had to be modified to keep pace with the adaptation going on. And they did that while still having her be somewhat familiar to any long-time fans that were still keeping up with the reboot while being accessible for newer fans to get into.

That’s basically a given when you lose more than a decade’s worth of background and characterization and have to adapt to the change as a result.

Quote

Like Boom Knuckles is a drastic change from early games Knuckles and some other previous portrayals but they at least had a distinct direction there. Later Archie Sally felt like besides the base characteristics you mentioned, they had no idea what else to do with her and just had her act however fit from story to story without it ever changing her designated role (eg. early Sally squinted at deviations because she was a cautious character who didn't like dangerous risks, later Sally squinted just because and then approved of doing the same thing, the new dynamic for her doesn't really have a consistent drive like the original, not even one that is different).

Well, other characters were being given focus at the time. Plus, they were going in a new direction with everyone. So given the new world that was being built around them before being abruptly untrusted by a crossover, then cancelled and the license given to IDW, it’s easy to see they’d be dealing with other constraints insofar as developing her in the new setting.

Quote

Using AoSth Sally is kinda cheating by the way because all she had was a non-speaking cameo in the Christmas Special.

You’ll find nary a fuck to be given from me on that front.  

[E-122-Psi]

35 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Well...yeah.

She basically had most of the development she had prior to her reboot wiped from continuity and had to be modified to keep pace with the adaptation going on. And they did that while still having her be somewhat familiar to any long-time fans that were still keeping up with the reboot while being accessible for newer fans to get into.

That’s basically a given when you lose more than a decade’s worth of background and characterization and have to adapt to the change as a result.

But again though, not all of Sally's personality was down to background and continuity in the pre-boot era. Hell they only developed elements of this besides 'Robotnik took over and placed her father in  whereabouts unknown' nearly the closing points of the show. She did have an actual personality prior to that.

51 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Eh, probably. Where do you think it started then?

Hard to say, there was definitely a lot of wear and tear during the Penders/Bollers era and arguably even Hurst's mild retool of her, but I think it was Ian in trying to 'fix' Sally that ironically made her more bland and interchangeable. She very quickly 'abdicated' from all her royal duties and sort of resorted to loads of compressed vice moments in order to make her seem more flawed and 'not Mary Sue-ish'. I don't think his team really knew how to make all this intrinsically work with her personality so she started to feel more like a pawn doing whatever they thought the fans wanted her to do, with the reboot doing it ten-fold when she was still divisive. I think it was there they largely abolished what remained of Sally's comedic 'prickliness' as well, leaving her without a trademark quirk of sorts. Besides being the leader and a bit snarky, it didn't really feel like there was much of a core personality left to anymore.

Also a more mild personal nitpick, but I think what also got me seeing Sally as a different character is when they gave Sally her first more SEGA-ish look when Ian started. Sally had loads of weird redesigns earlier, but I feel they always got the facial design right, the sultry expression and 'Bambi' eyes and everything, while the Tails/Cream type narrower face only exacerbated the dilution of her personality for me. Even Sonic's multiple redesigns keep the furrowed 'cyclops' eyes to vent his 'attitude' (or in cases like the movie at least try to mimic the design of it) while Sally's behaviour and visual trademarks were all gone for me now.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

But again though, not all of Sally's personality was down to background and continuity in the pre-boot era. Hell they only developed elements of this besides 'Robotnik took over and placed her father in  whereabouts unknown' nearly the closing points of the show. She did have an actual personality prior to that.

Hard to say, there was definitely a lot of wear and tear during the Penders/Bollers era and arguably even Hurst's mild retool of her, but I think it was Ian in trying to 'fix' Sally that ironically made her more bland and interchangeable. She very quickly 'abdicated' from all her royal duties and sort of resorted to loads of compressed vice moments in order to make her seem more flawed and 'not Mary Sue-ish'. I don't think his team really knew how to make all this intrinsically work with her personality so she started to feel more like a pawn doing whatever they thought the fans wanted her to do, with the reboot doing it ten-fold when she was still divisive. I think it was there they largely abolished what remained of Sally's comedic 'prickliness' as well, leaving her without a trademark quirk of sorts. Besides being the leader and a bit snarky, it didn't really feel like there was much of a core personality left to anymore.

So it's her not being used for overt comedy?

Quote

Also a more mild personal nitpick, but I think what also got me seeing Sally as a different character is when they gave Sally her first more SEGA-ish look when Ian started. Sally had loads of weird redesigns earlier, but I feel they always got the facial design right, the sultry expression and 'Bambi' eyes and everything, while the Tails/Cream type narrower face only exacerbated the dilution of her personality for me. Even Sonic's multiple redesigns keep the furrowed 'cyclops' eyes to vent his 'attitude' (or in cases like the movie at least try to mimic the design of it) while Sally's behaviour and visual trademarks were all gone for me now.

Oh yeah, she definitely has one of the more thorough redesigns. Would a more Knuckles and Shadow shape have gelled with her more compassionate nature though?

[E-122-Psi]

2 hours ago, DabigRG said:

So it's her not being used for overt comedy?

No, the grouchy quirk was definitely something that peppered her character a bit better but it wasn't just that. It was that Sally was going through a contradicting amount of characteristics and actions but there was no personality trait that was kind of tying them all together. You can have juxtaposing traits (eg. Tails being smart but childish, Knuckles being insociable but gullible) but they tend to be meshed believably by venting both through a consistent personality and dynamic (hence why Tails in Lost World didn't work as well since he was all over the place there), so Sally tended to just be a character who said one thing and then done another with no real establishment into why and the narrative just insisting she was a consistent straight man regardless.

That said given Sally was becoming a compulsive hypocrite through this approach, it probably wouldn't have hurt to undermine her or made her the butt of a joke a few times as karma. At the very least a few times Sonic playfully mocked her for being a pot calling the kettle black. 

2 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Oh yeah, she definitely has one of the more thorough redesigns. Would a more Knuckles and Shadow shape have gelled with her more compassionate nature though?

I feel Sally could have just NOT borrowed from previous SEGA design quirks and just kept her own facial design while still utilising some style staples Uekawa set up. To make another shameless self prrrrromotion:

I wasn't big on Archie's whole 'we can only recycle design traits previous SEGA characters established' approach really. Sure Uekawa is kind of restrictive with design choices at times, but you can't make unique characters without breaking the mould in SOME way. And hell this is pretty much pre-boot Sally in nearly every way besides the eye and snout shape anyway. That's all it took to make the change work. To keep a unique face to express herself with.

[Wraith]

The changes to her eyes felt more like a change designed to suit her personality than conformity. "sultry" is never how I'd actually describe any iteration of Sally that I've seen outside of maybe some Penders era stuff. It certainly didn't describe her in the modern era.

The outfit kept her design in line with the series while still keeping most of her basic colors in tact. I mostly think of it as a straight improvement.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

8 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

But again though, not all of Sally's personality was down to background and continuity in the pre-boot era. Hell they only developed elements of this besides 'Robotnik took over and placed her father in  whereabouts unknown' nearly the closing points of the show. She did have an actual personality prior to that.

I get that, but either way you cut it, her pre-reboot personality isn’t going to fully translate over to the post-reboot baring the core elements of it that she’s more known for. Just like the setting, her background is mainly how people see why her personality is the way it is, and when you change that, it still affects the whole character going forward.

That’s why alternate settings have alternate rules when they adapt characters within them. 

[DabigRG]

5 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

No, the grouchy quirk was definitely something that peppered her character a bit better but it wasn't just that. It was that Sally was going through a contradicting amount of characteristics and actions but there was no personality trait that was kind of tying them all together. You can have juxtaposing traits (eg. Tails being smart but childish, Knuckles being insociable but gullible) but they tend to be meshed believably by venting both through a consistent personality and dynamic (hence why Tails in Lost World didn't work as well since he was all over the place there), so Sally tended to just be a character who said one thing and then done another with no real establishment into why and the narrative just insisting she was a consistent straight man regardless.

That said given Sally was becoming a compulsive hypocrite through this approach, it probably wouldn't have hurt to undermine her or made her the butt of a joke a few times as karma. At the very least a few times Sonic playfully mocked her for being a pot calling the kettle black. 

At the risk of circling back round to Spark of Life again, I think the idea is meant to be that Sally, for all her attempts to be the logical levelheaded and cautious one, is ultimately prone to being driven by emotion due to any combination of compassion, pride, and somewhat natural immaturity that's hard to suppress. Perhaps it would have been for the best to have an arc or two about her having to realize that and try to accept it.

Idk, it seems like explicitly smart characters are sometimes prone to being discredited if either the written fails to satisfactorily uphold that for people, if they get written off as boring assholes, or both oou. 

5 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

I feel Sally could have just NOT borrowed from previous SEGA design quirks and just kept her own facial design while still utilising some style staples Uekawa set up. To make another shameless self prrrrromotion:

I wasn't big on Archie's whole 'we can only recycle design traits previous SEGA characters established' approach really. Sure Uekawa is kind of restrictive with design choices at times, but you can't make unique characters without breaking the mould in SOME way. And hell this is pretty much pre-boot Sally in nearly every way besides the eye and snout shape anyway. That's all it took to make the change work. To keep a unique face to express herself with.

I was about to say, that doesn't fit Sega's design philosophy and honestly doesn't look like a change at all besides the spiritual penstroke or whatever.

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

The changes to her eyes felt more like a change designed to suit her personality than conformity. "sultry" is never how I'd actually describe any iteration of Sally that I've seen outside of maybe some Penders era stuff. It certainly didn't describe her in the modern era.

The outfit kept her design in line with the series while still keeping most of her basic colors in tact. I mostly think of it as a straight improvement.

Yeah, that was my thought as well. I'm a tad confused as to why she had that look outside of it somehow making her look more serious/mature than the other characters.

 

[E-122-Psi]

3 hours ago, DabigRG said:

At the risk of circling back round to Spark of Life again, I think the idea is meant to be that Sally, for all her attempts to be the logical levelheaded and cautious one, is ultimately prone to being driven by emotion due to any combination of compassion, pride, and somewhat natural immaturity that's hard to suppress. Perhaps it would have been for the best to have an arc or two about her having to realize that and try to accept it.

Idk, it seems like explicitly smart characters are sometimes prone to being discredited if either the written fails to satisfactorily uphold that for people, if they get written off as boring assholes, or both oou. 

I guess the thing is that sort of archetype CAN indeed work but they have to actually CALL THEM OUT ON IT in-universe. Like you said, just having some cases she acknowledged she had made standards even she couldn't uphold or even just some playful moments where Sonic notes her hypocrisy or echoed her own lecturing against her. Something to make it amount to actual development and mesh her character better. If that wasn't the actual intention, I feel that they should have had her blunders actually originate from her more cautious and methodical traits so she wasn't outright being a hypocrite about Sonic's impulsiveness (eg. making plans that seem concise on paper but don't really think through deviations or changes in event or are just TOO convoluted in their safety measures).

And yeah, the problem is that smart and more careful characters generally need more establishment for when they screw up or make blunders. It is possible to make them as flawed and in some cases even as silly and bungling as the more simple minded cast but, as I said before, you still need to set it up so things seem logical from their viewpoint, otherwise it just looks like an out-of-character moment. You also generally have to moderate these moments better so that they still palpable moments of actually looking intelligent.

Sonic and Sally are comparable to Rainbow Dash and Twilight Sparkle for example, but while the latter both have a shtick and as many defining flaws, Twilight Sparkle generally needs an episode to gradually setup her downward spiral so her over analysing logically backfires onto her, while with Rainbow Dash you just need her to overestimate herself and swoop in too quickly like with Sonic. Twilight doing the exact same careless shtick as Rainbow wouldn't work (at least not besides sporadic moments of weakness), which I feel is what they sometimes did to Sally, and they did it so often after a while that Sally started to look like a chronic hypocrite and a somewhat incompetent strategist.

The narrative was making her characterisation smart and sensible to the point of being near boring, but the actual agency of the character made her look like kind of a self righteous and impulsive blunderer. The two aspects never acknowledged the other in action thus these sides of her never really meshed together and developed into a happy balance. I think it also led to Sally coming off as kind of insufferable since it meant she won a lot of arguments undeservedly and never really got her worst vices thrown in front of her, another common writing folly of the designated 'sensible' character when written poorly. No one roots for a karma houdini.

3 hours ago, DabigRG said:

I was about to say, that doesn't fit Sega's design philosophy and honestly doesn't look like a change at all besides the spiritual penstroke or whatever.

Yeah, that was my thought as well. I'm a tad confused as to why she had that look outside of it somehow making her look more serious/mature than the other characters.

 

Maybe not 'sultry' as the best word, more...feminine? I just liked her having a different eye pattern from the other SEGA characters, and not everyone just being 'angry cyclops' or 'Tails' eyes with mild tweaks on occasion. Blaze and Big are somewhat refreshing for this reason. Having their own unique facial design and expressions.

But yeah that one is a more personal nitpick and doesn't necessarily work.

[Kuzu]

One of my favorite YouTube channels put up a video about Sally.

Touches upon a lot of the reasons she's such a divisive character and echoed my feelings when I first discovered the character.

And even talks about the potential the character has under the right pen, if Sega and the fanbase were just a bit more open-minded about her existence.

[GentlemanX]

Great video, thanks for sharing Kuzu. Was pretty surprised by the positivity toward the romantic relationship between Sonic and Sally. I don't really want that in the games myself, but I do appreciate seeing a well thought out argument in favor of the SatAM/Archie relationships - which I also love in those media.

[E-122-Psi]

As someone who usually LOVES all this guy's retrospectives, I find myself not really convinced by this one sadly, since unlike so many other videos from the Games Apologist which revel in a concept's good points while still pinpointing and acknowledging the core issues and what should have been handled better, it continues the trend of turning a blind eye to the personal niggles I have with Sally, and that everyone who dislikes Sally is down to more superficial reasons like shipping and the grittier storyline and that her actual personality and role are perfectly compatible for the large part, all that can be implemented without need of change or rectification. I found one argument in the comments section that better argued the factor in inserting Sally:

Quote

"The thing about Sally and Amy is Sally was created by the west who was changing everything about Sonic, while Amy was created at the same time in Japan by Sonic's actual creators. Amy was designed the way she is specifically because Sonic's creators knew intuitively that Sonic should not be with a character like Sally. You say that Sally grounds him, puts him in his place, that is how Sally is meant to be and that is why she doesn't work for Sonic as SEGA intended him to be. Sonic is not supposed to be some immature rebel that needs to be grounded by a responsible girl like Sally. Sonic is supposed to be a free spirit who lives life his own way, he's supposed to be validated for being that way, his life philosophy is meant to be inspirational, the core message of the franchise. He's a nomad who runs free and he won't bend to anyone's whim. That is why Amy was created the way she is and why her dynamic with Sonic is the way it is. Sonic doesn't slow down for anyone, so Amy is someone who is determined to keep up. Amy's obsessive emotions and love for Sonic, following him everywhere, is the only kind of love interest that actually works for someone like Sonic. Because if you wanna be with Sonic, you gotta be like Sonic.

You've gotta live in his world, because he's not ever gonna stay tied down in yours."

I'm sorry but nothing will make me side with the idea of King Sonic. That was the final nail of 'Sally always knows better than Sonic' that I think prevents them having a healthy chemistry. I don't want Sonic to change just for Sally to exist.

[Wraith]

Making Sonic compromise is more interesting and healthier than asserting the idea that whoever he gets with has to live for him. It's why I shipped him with Blaze initially and think the friction between him and Sally is interesting. There's a lot of friction between him and Amy too just because as much as Amy travels she's not actually opposed to planting her roots somewhere. The sheer idea of Marriage that she's always pushing onto Sonic is the biggest example of this. The goal is getting Sonic to settle down. 

I think that a lot of people kind of tend to hold SOJ's own writing/canon on a pedestal when it's worth reexamining and thinking critically about. The idea that Sonic's philosophy is king has lead to some of the dullest, least challenging stories for the character. I'm not a king Sonic stan myself and prefer most of the game stories to the comic stuff, but if you were taking a more romantic angle forcing him to make room for others would be better than just straight affirmation in every sense IMO.

This is all to say that, yeah, it's fine if Sonic gets put in check sometimes and it's fine if it's a woman that does it. I'm not all that fussed about which one it is or if it's even a woman at all. 
 

[E-122-Psi]

12 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Making Sonic compromise is more interesting and healthier than asserting the idea that whoever he gets with has to live for him. It's why I shipped him with Blaze initially and think the friction between him and Sally is interesting. There's a lot of friction between him and Amy too just because as much as Amy travels she's not actually opposed to planting her roots somewhere. The sheer idea of Marriage that she's always pushing onto Sonic is the biggest example of this. The goal is getting Sonic to settle down. 

I think that a lot of people kind of tend to hold SOJ's own writing/canon on a pedestal when it's worth reexamining and thinking critically about. The idea that Sonic's philosophy is king has lead to some of the dullest, least challenging stories for the character. I'm not a king Sonic stan myself and prefer most of the game stories to the comic stuff, but if you were taking a more romantic angle forcing him to make room for others would be better than just straight affirmation in every sense IMO.

This is all to say that, yeah, it's fine if Sonic gets put in check sometimes and it's fine if it's a woman that does it. I'm not all that fussed about which one it is or if it's even a woman at all. 
 

I'm fine with Sonic's ethics being given a flawed light and being put in line SOMETIMES, after all Sonic X was his way always being validated and I find that to be the most one note take on him. But moving it to just this character being the one always validated isn't fixing that problem, it's MOVING it. Now it's ANOTHER character, his opposite that always gets their way without compromise with Sonic being the one who has to completely change his life ethics for. King Sonic is the epitome of them just accepting Sonic's core traits and ethics as a concept is 'misguided' and he should fall to Sally without any sort of compromise on her end. She has it right. Even worse when Sally gets away with being a hypocrite about it. She is enabled to follow whatever direction she proposes, even when she moves the bloody goalposts. This isn't a healthy chemistry to me, it's a cliche heirarchy overdone to the point of incompatibility.

This is something I never ONCE saw rectified about Sally, even when they tried to make her more flawed this was never approached, never deconstructed. Not even just one solitary moment of her methodical efforts being inherently wrong or someone calling her out for being a hypocrite. Sally isn't meant to be flawed in her core, it's Sonic who is meant to do all the changing. This is the key thing that REALLY puts me off them adapting Sally because it feels like no writer really understands the issue with this handling of Sally and how her dynamic works with Sonic. They nearly all think that's the 'good part' about her and want that in full blast if she were adapted.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It’s about the only time Sonic will get married and settle down in an official work. Hurray for SonicXSally!

But yeah, I don’t particularly need it in the games even if Sally were to become adapted into them. Though I did like the perspective of them having a relationship, one with ups and downs before becoming more healthy, as well as the perspective of “what if Eggman was defeated for good” when Ian took the reins.

If they do decide to bring back Sally, the bare minimum of her character is still enough to flesh out in a new direction while still keeping her familiar. 

[Kuzu]

Like I said, people just aren't willing to be open-minded about this, mostly because everyone just puts the Sega incarnation of this franchise on a pedestal with no critical thought involved. I understand if you grew with and prefer the games after Sonic Adventure, but I've never been comfortable with this purist and elitist mindset that the fanbase have about it. 

And before I get this flipped on my head with someone telling me "BUT SATAM/ARCHIE DID..." yes, I know about Archie fans and their bullshit too. Quite frankly, I find both sides insufferable to deal with and I can fully sympathize with Flynn and Sega and not wanting to deal with that bullshit because the fanbase simply cannot co-exist with each other. It's a pool toxicity that I have no investment in at all. 

 

 

That being said, regardless of how I personally feel, I can understand why they did what they did with Sally and the rest of the SATAM/Archie verse. The games were simply not fleshed out enough at the time to hold a story, and even nowadays, we can see what a series focused fully in the game verse would be like in IDW...and it's kind of boring to be perfectly honest with you. If that's the preference of people, fine. But the SATAM/Archie creators had a story to tell and they had the creative freedom to do it.

The only way a Sonic show was going to work at the time was giving Sonic a good supporting cast to bounce off of, and that the audience had to love as well. Everything in those medias was designed to get you love and care about Sally and her problems, and how she was the only one capable of reigning Sonic in. All of that endeared her to the audience, and the sheer fact that she's still talked about is relevant to this day. 

Yes, I sympathize with people who prefer the Sega incarnation of Sonic who is a free spirited rebel who everyone strives to be like, and how Sally is the antithesis to that. But I feel that mindset has blinded people to the sheer amount of potential a character and setting like SATAM/Archie had. And if this fanbase wasn't such...cesspool, I'm pretty sure Flynn and Sega could make a cohesive enough universe where they all could co-exist...and they did briefly before it the boot.