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Rally 4 Sally


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2 minutes ago, Sean said:

Have you never picked up a Marvel or DC comic book before? Rebooting a character with a supposedly complex backstory isn't rocket science and is nothing new in fiction. This is a problem that you're inventing.

And you're saying NONE of those reboots don't divide the fanbase into different groups and cause similar conflicts?

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2 hours ago, Natie said:

I don't mean to sound rude, but could we just be done with the freedom fighters? Thanks to the comic they got a much longer stint of relevancy than any generic 90's Don Bluth wannabe cast filler furries could ask for. I think it's more than appropriate a time to just retire them, I don't see how they fit in the Sonic games or what they would even add by this point.

I'm amused how someone can hate a character so much that they come to a thread talking about a fan effort to have them added to a shitty mobile game  of all the innocuous things just to talk shit about the character and poo poo the effort.

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5 minutes ago, Sean said:

Sonic fans get upset over everything. Why is this important?

Because it doesn't really help, and because a lot of them just want them to get the basic core unified and running smoothly rather than adding more complications to the mixture. Not to say they couldn't do that AND add the Freedom Fighters but people have a right to be skeptical because they're connected to a lot of the most convoluted and polarising parts of the franchise.

I will admit to liking some divergent takes like Boom Knuckles but the thing is that those are the adaptations, not the main works. See how many accept Knuckles acting the same way in the official games.

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1 minute ago, E-122-Psi said:

I will admit to liking some divergent takes like Boom Knuckles but the thing is that those are the adaptations, not the main works.

Shitty mobile game = The most important part of the game canon since Sonic Adventure 2. Gotcha.

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1 minute ago, Tornado said:

Shitty mobile game = The most important part of the game canon since Sonic Adventure 2. Gotcha.

Again I get the request for Dash, but then people started asking why people were averse to them being in the games series AS A WHOLE.

Dash is an ideal opportunity to acknowledge the rest of the Sonic franchise, but it's a MUCH smaller scale theoretical than what many people believe those opposing the Freedom Fighters being the games are talking about.

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So you're inventing problems that Sega wouldn't actually have if they ever decided to utilize those characters again for a tangent that's not relevant to the thread in the first place. Gotcha.

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The SatAM characters are really simple. Anything remotely too complex to implement was in the pre-reboot comics...and even then I can't think of much Penders nonsense surrounding them compared to, say, Knuckles--at most there's, what, some weird destiny shit with the Acorn family? Most of the actually stupid baggage with Archie's old continuity was centered on the game characters, or some of the new ones Penders and co. came up with.

The most "out there" characters among the FF are Nicole and Bunnie, and they even have something vaguely resembling backstories (a humongous hurdle that among the games' cast only Shadow has crossed), but they're pretty easy to sum up and I don't think the concepts would feel that out of place in a series that has always just done whatever fits that particular game.

 

Anyway that's all to say I do agree I don't really care about alternate continuity characters being added to the games, at least outside of side games. I'd like to see more of that...and ideally not just in mobile games designed to squeeze money out of you.

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21 minutes ago, Celestia said:

The SatAM characters are really simple. Anything remotely too complex to implement was in the pre-reboot comics...and even then I can't think of much Penders nonsense surrounding them compared to, say, Knuckles--at most there's, what, some weird destiny shit with the Acorn family? Most of the actually stupid baggage with Archie's old continuity was centered on the game characters, or some of the new ones Penders and co. came up with.

The most "out there" characters among the FF are Nicole and Bunnie, and they even have something vaguely resembling backstories (a humongous hurdle that among the games' cast only Shadow has crossed), but they're pretty easy to sum up and I don't think the concepts would feel that out of place in a series that has always just done whatever fits that particular game.

 

Anyway that's all to say I do agree I don't really care about alternate continuity characters being added to the games, at least outside of side games. I'd like to see more of that...and ideally not just in mobile games designed to squeeze money out of you.

One detail to remember there though, is that the Freedom Fighters are pretty much an item. They'd likely have to be adapted in ONE story if they went for them. Maybe a halfway accurate translation wouldn't be too hard for one or two of them, maybe even for SEGA, but try FIVE at once.

I'd argue Sally in fact is probably the most complicated since so much of Satam/Archie lore is tied to her being the leader and monarch, and a lot of her personality traits rely on certain characters acting a specific way. This is probably why Sally is so divisive in the first place since she is arguably more all encompassing a presence in the works she is in than Sonic himself.

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2 hours ago, Natie said:

I don't mean to sound rude, but could we just be done with the freedom fighters? Thanks to the comic they got a much longer stint of relevancy than any generic 90's Don Bluth wannabe cast filler furries could ask for. I think it's more than appropriate a time to just retire them, I don't see how they fit in the Sonic games or what they would even add by this point.

 I mean, to be honest I'm not fond of the Freedom Fighters for a variety of reasons, and is fine if they never came back. And I'm not afraid to say that in a relevant conversation. But I don't wanna talk over those who like and wish for them to come back. That's their opinion, and they're free to express that.

A while ago I would've reacted with "noooo I don't like them" but now it's more "yeah sure. I don't care but it would make other people happy. It'd be amazing if Sega decides to give them another chance. Just...don't think everything will go as you expect."

21 minutes ago, Celestia said:

The SatAM characters are really simple. Anything remotely too complex to implement was in the pre-reboot comics...and even then I can't think of much Penders nonsense surrounding them compared to, say, Knuckles--at most there's, what, some weird destiny shit with the Acorn family? Most of the actually stupid baggage with Archie's old continuity was centered on the game characters, or some of the new ones Penders and co. came up with.

The most "out there" characters among the FF are Nicole and Bunnie, and they even have something vaguely resembling backstories (a humongous hurdle that among the games' cast only Shadow has crossed), but they're pretty easy to sum up and I don't think the concepts would feel that out of place in a series that has always just done whatever fits that particular game.

I wonder which version does these people wish to see the most? Satam or Post-reboot? I think they'd still get the full Sega inspection (both design and story) like the IDW characters, unless they're to represent the cartoon or Archie comics like the movie & IDW characters in the app games.

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1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

You're doing a very poor job at showing it.

 

I suppose this type of response was coming sooner or later, but I'm trying to figure out why there are so many fans seem to have a personal vendetta against the Freedom Fighters.

I'm not even trying to attack you, I'm genuinely curious because I've seen it for so many years.

Hmm? Personal vendetta? There's a lot of versions of Sonic, and I simply don't care for that one. It's a pretty liberal interpretation from the others so, of course there's a divisive nature. It's hard to share enthusiasm for it and at this point, where we have a whole thread for an unlikely (and aperently aggressive) effort, kinda leads me to wanna say somethin about this. *shrug*

1 hour ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Which falls apart considering characters like Tangle and Whisper aren’t really game characters, nor did they grow up with them.

And this hypocrisy isn’t lost on anyone, including the people making it. Which begs the question of why this is an excuse against Sally and the  Freedom Fighters

You seem to confuse preference for hypocrisy. People like some things more than others, it's a completely normal thing that everyone does.

1 hour ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

I wonder if you would say this about Classic Sonic considering he ticks many of the same boxes?

Im against Classic sonic getting shoehorned into stuff like forces where he has no reason, yeah? I think most people are so if that was intended to be some kinda of "gotcha" then it doesnt really work in this context. Considering classic Sonic, like, *is* Sonic, yknow, from the actual games, and not a side character from an american cartoon made by people none too interested in the source material.

 

1 hour ago, Monkey Destruction Switch said:

Well, you're in luck because there's an extremely high chance they're already retired and always will be. Also, even if they wouldn't fit in main Sonic games, I don't see why that means they can't just be bonus characters in a mobile game.

It's fine for them to be included lol, I just thought it was a good opportunity as any to bring up my lack of understanding with the massive rallying for these old characters to return.

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11 minutes ago, Natie said:

You seem to confuse preference for hypocrisy. People like some things more than others, it's a completely normal thing that everyone does.

I don’t think you understood my point if you’re gonna make a strawman about preference over hypocrisy of people not growing up with a character and whether they’re from the games over other characters in the same boat—two things I directly pointed out in the same post you directly quoted.

Quote

Im against Classic sonic getting shoehorned into stuff like forces where he has no reason, yeah? I think most people are so if that was intended to be some kinda of "gotcha" then it doesnt really work in this context. Considering classic Sonic, like, *is* Sonic, yknow, from the actual games, and not a side character from an american cartoon made by people none too interested in the source material.

I’m talking Classic Sonic’s comeback general. Much the same way as the Freedom Fighters that you seemed dead set against.

Don’t act like you didn’t know that, because I wasn’t talking about shoehorning him in games for no reason. Especially given this is a topic about a mobile side game with no canon whatsoever.

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11 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

One detail to remember there though, is that the Freedom Fighters are pretty much an item. They'd likely have to be adapted in ONE story if they went for them. Maybe a halfway accurate translation wouldn't be too hard for one or two of them, maybe even for SEGA, but try FIVE at once.

Sonic goes to a new location, and there's all these new characters there that haven't been in a game before. Sonic professes to knowing them from sometime in the past ("Wow, long time no see guys!") since he wanders the planet but doesn't bother explaining because it doesn't actually matter. If that's just too insane to do, he doesn't even really have to do that since characters have been reintroduced in the series as never having met the main cast before.

 

 

Sega can cut me the check any time.

11 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I'd argue Sally in fact is probably the most complicated since so much of Satam/Archie lore is tied to her being the leader and monarch

Like Amy's fortune telling and mysticism or Vector's strong Christian religious background.

 

 

11 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

and a lot of her personality traits rely on certain characters acting a specific way.

She was a straight man of the group who generally mostly had pretty major flaws holding them back; especially very early in the comic/SatAM. Hell, maybe Sega writing a game with them in it could actually make Sonic display the negative character traits he's supposed to have but has shown maybe twice in the past 20 years; but if that's too insane to do she could still maintain her relationship to the rest of the FF without imposing on Sonic's incorruptibly pure pureness.

 

Sega can cut me a check for that too.

11 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

This is probably why Sally is so divisive in the first place since she is arguably more all encompassing a presence in the works she is in than Sonic himself.

So they could uh... not do that. But hey.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Natie said:

Considering classic Sonic, like, *is* Sonic, yknow, from the actual games, and not a side character from an american cartoon made by people none too interested in the source material.

SatAM was directly derived from the source material, with Sega of America's blessing. The all encompassing and important "canon" that overwrote it didn't exist until half a decade later.

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13 minutes ago, Natie said:

Hmm? Personal vendetta? There's a lot of versions of Sonic, and I simply don't care for that one. It's a pretty liberal interpretation from the others so, of course there's a divisive nature. It's hard to share enthusiasm for it and at this point, where we have a whole thread for an unlikely (and aperently aggressive) effort, kinda leads me to wanna say somethin about this. *shrug*

Nobody in this thread has been aggressive though; I can get that it's a particular interpretation that you don't care for but...literally everything in the history of Sonic is divisive in some way...so that's not much of a distinction. 

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2 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

One detail to remember there though, is that the Freedom Fighters are pretty much an item. 


In the mid-90s you'd sometimes see merch with Princess Sally, but none of the other cartoon characters. For a while in the west she was the brand's de facto girl character, and effectively the co-lead of the cartoon, so she carries some value as an individual character. Rotor, Bunnie and Antoine are essentially just her "crew" (and Nicole is her cell phone) . Their stories revolve around Sally's story - Kingdom invaded, King imprisoned, Princess leads a rag-tag resistance to take back the throne.

 

I don't think there's much of a chance of her appearing in the mobile games right now though. Sega of Japan doesn't really like touching on old Sonic media in general, and would be even less inclined to do so when it's a piece of media they had no creative input in. Tangle and Whisper are characters Sonic Team helped design, they immediately became popular in the fan base, and the comic they appear in is still running, so their inclusion in the mobile games is a cross-promotional tactic.

 

If Sally were to be put in the mobile games, there'd be no product to cross-promote. And there's currently not much buzz around the character. And she'd need to be redesigned to fit the current standards of the series (the Archie redesign is apparently off-limits). And unlike Tangle with her tail and Whisper with her Wispon, she doesn't have a gimmick or theme that lends itself to gameplay, so that's another thing that would have to be considered. It would be more work, and probably for a lower return.

 

Honestly, it would make more sense to introduce a new, game-ready version of Princess Sally into the IDW comics first, and see if that version of the character takes off. Then the design and gimmicks would be taken care of, they'd be able to gauge fan interest properly beforehand, and they'd have a product to cross-promote. But we know that Sonic Team/Sega of Japan currently has no interest in doing that either - because she's an old media character and they had nothing to do with her.

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6 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

I don’t think you understood my point if you’re gonna make a strawman about preference over hypocrisy of people not growing up with a character and whether they’re from the games—two things I directly pointed out in the same post you just quoted.

I grew up on satam and archie, yet i don't really like them now. I haven't grown up on Tangle and Whisper, but i think they're cool. So no, it really is just preference, at least on my part, and i believe it's the case for several others.

 

9 minutes ago, Tornado said:

SatAM was directly derived from the source material, with Sega of America's blessing. The all encompassing and important "canon" that overwrote it didn't exist until half a decade later.

The true cannon was established with the release of the very first game, what are you on about? Also, SoA handed out their license to whoever promised to make good PR, they even had their own lore for Sonic that was completely different to the actual game devs vision. We had 3 cartoons that all did their own distinct idea, so I dont think that "blessing" has that much integrity. The SatAM artists first tried designing Robotnik as a dragon warlock for christs sake, I dont think they cared that much about the actual source material.

 

6 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Nobody in this thread has been aggressive though; I can get that it's a particular interpretation that you don't care for but...literally everything in the history of Sonic is divisive in some way...so that's not much of a distinction. 

i didnt say anyone here is. I'm going off the accounts i just read talking about this project having "toxic people" and advertising aggressively.

 

1 hour ago, Tornado said:

I'm amused how someone can hate a character so much that they come to a thread talking about a fan effort to have them added to a shitty mobile game  of all the innocuous things just to talk shit about the character and poo poo the effort.

I was under the impression that forums were a place to discuss your thoughts on a topic. We could discuss the validity of a character being added to a game without needing to caricature me as someone frothing at the mouth over the character. I think it'd be more fulfilling for both of us that way.

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2 minutes ago, Natie said:

 

 

i didnt say anyone here is. I'm going off the accounts i just read talking about this project having "toxic people" and advertising aggressively.

So...you don't have any firsthand experience with said toxicity and just believing secondhand information that you heard from people already predisposed to disliking Sally fans then?

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35 minutes ago, Tornado said:

Sonic goes to a new location, and there's all these new characters there that haven't been in a game before. Sonic professes to knowing them from sometime in the past ("Wow, long time no see guys!") since he wanders the planet but doesn't bother explaining because it doesn't actually matter. If that's just too insane to do, he doesn't even really have to do that since characters have been reintroduced in the series as never having met the main cast before.

Yeah, but they'd still have to do so in a way that established all these characters individually and didn't make them feel like cardboard cutouts. The last time a game tried that with that many characters and succeeded was Sonic Adventure and even that is arguable.

35 minutes ago, Tornado said:

Like Amy's fortune telling and mysticism or Vector's strong Christian religious background.

Not really because Sally's leadership is much more of an actual personal drive to her character throughout both medias rather than a minor hidden depth mentioned in bios.

35 minutes ago, Tornado said:

She was a straight man of the group who generally mostly had pretty major flaws holding them back; especially very early in the comic/SatAM. Hell, maybe Sega writing a game with them in it could actually make Sonic display the negative character traits he's supposed to have but has shown maybe twice in the past 20 years; but if that's too insane to do she could still maintain her relationship to the rest of the FF without imposing on Sonic's incorruptibly pure pureness.

Sally being the straight man was a rather divisive element because as time passed it became more evident it was simplifying Sonic and co into foolish characters just to make Sally's shtick work and spinning Sonic's defining traits to often be wrong and misguided (not to mention making a straight man as a co-lead didn't always work great, leading to complaints Sally was too boring, a designated hero or a 'Mary Sue'). I could argue even Lost Worlds, despite its own problems, felt like a more even handed take on the cast being more complicated and flawed, since it wasn't just 'Sonic, listen to your sitcom wife, she's ALWAYS right.' Hell Sonic Boom shown how they just could refine on what Lost Worlds and make Tails a proper foil for Sonic in a way that makes both their negative and positive qualities shine (Tails' more methodical strategies were sometimes allowed to go wrong or straight up bungle, unlike Sally who had a much clear one sided hierarchy over Sonic, even when Ian was really going for the 'Look Sally was wrong for once' phase) not to mention do so in a more subtle way that doesn't make Tails feel too all encompassing in his chemistry to Sonic like Sally sometimes did.

Not to say they couldn't just fix Sally perhaps, though why adapt another character that never landed the happy balance in 20 years when they could just refine an already promising main character in the games to do that role more smoothly and shrewdly?

24 minutes ago, Pengi said:

Honestly, it would make more sense to introduce a new, game-ready version of Princess Sally into the IDW comics first, and see if that version of the character takes off. Then the design and gimmicks would be taken care of, they'd be able to gauge fan interest properly beforehand, and they'd have a product to cross-promote. But we know that Sonic Team/Sega of Japan currently has no interest in doing that either - because she's an old media character and they had nothing to do with her.

But that sort of ties into my previous point. Why adapt a near completely retooled Princess Sally? Isn't there a point the appeal to the character is no longer there and they may as well just make a new separate character?

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This is kind of off topic but I think that it's a little strange that SOJ's own lore for the series is considered some kind of holy text everyone should honor when creating new Sonic content even though most Sonic fans aren't actually satisfied with the storytelling/lore in most of the games. What the Classic Sonic games have is a good starting point but they're not super compelling on their own. Their ideas weren't inherently better than what the cartoons came up with by any stretch. 

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4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

This is kind of off topic but I think that it's a little strange that SOJ's own lore for the series is considered some kind of holy text everyone should honor when creating new Sonic content even though most Sonic fans aren't actually satisfied with the storytelling/lore in most of the games. Their ideas weren't inherently better than what the cartoons came up with by any stretch. 

Well no it isn't. It's just not everyone thinks adapted characters whose appeal comes from rather delicate and complicated lore very different from that take runs a great risk of HELPING that. If anything they really need to streamline and focus some sort of basic idea for the series, not add more conflicting stuff to the pot.

There are some SOJ inspired takes that ARE considered promising at the moment however, such as the Mania works.

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3 minutes ago, Wraith said:

This is kind of off topic but I think that it's a little strange that SOJ's own lore for the series is considered some kind of holy text everyone should honor when creating new Sonic content even though most Sonic fans aren't actually satisfied with the storytelling/lore in most of the games. What the Classic Sonic games have is a good starting point but they're not super compelling on their own. Their ideas weren't inherently better than what the cartoons came up with by any stretch. 

People will have an inherent bias towards what they were first exposed to; the reason so many fans are predisposed to stuff like the cartoons is because it's not their preferred version and don't like the idea of it intruding on the stuff they like. 

...Sometimes people get petty about it though, because this st still the Sonic fanbase

2 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Well no it isn't. It's just we don't really think adapted characters whose appeal comes from rather delicate and complicated lore very different from that take runs a great risk of HELPING that. If anything they really need to streamline and focus some sort of basic idea for the series.

There are some SOJ inspired takes that ARE considered promising at the moment however, such as the Mania works.

So basically, it's because it's not what you like. 

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9 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

People will have an inherent bias towards what they were first exposed to; the reason so many fans are predisposed to stuff like the cartoons is because it's not their preferred version and don't like the idea of it intruding on the stuff they like. 

...Sometimes people get petty about it though, because this st still the Sonic fanbase

So basically, it's because it's not what you like. 

Well you want the FFs in because they're what YOU DO like.

OF COURSE it's subjective. I mean, surely you have things from the other parts of the franchise you don't want to EVER touch the official games. Do you think it would be unfair and close minded for you to be vocal about that if someone pushed and petitioned to stick it in?

Just because you have the more positive outlook doesn't mean you have the more FAIR one since you still want to enforce elements of the franchise others don't necessarily want. The Freedom Fighters are INCREDIBLY divisive characters.

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3 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Well no it isn't. It's just not everyone thinks adapted characters whose appeal comes from rather delicate and complicated lore very different from that take runs a great risk of HELPING that. If anything they really need to streamline and focus some sort of basic idea for the series, not add more conflicting stuff to the pot.

There are some SOJ inspired takes that ARE considered promising at the moment however, such as the Mania works.

"Eggman took over a kingdom" isn't complicated lore. There are several backstories in the games that are more complicated than the stuff SATAM or post reboot archie proposed about these characters. The fact that you're still pushing this is so confusing to me. It borders on being a lie. 

2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

People will have an inherent bias towards what they were first exposed to; the reason so many fans are predisposed to stuff like the cartoons is because it's not their preferred version and don't like the idea of it intruding on the stuff they like. 

I used to feel this way about the cartoons but at some point you gotta accept that it's all Sonic. If you're actually concerned about the state of the discourse playing gatekeeper and flooding peaceful threads with junk arguments is the worst thing you can do. 

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4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

"Eggman took over a kingdom" isn't complicated lore. There are several backstories in the games that are more complicated than the stuff SATAM or post reboot archie proposed about these characters. The fact that you're still pushing this is so confusing to me. It borders on being a lie. 

So is streamlining Archie canon into just "Eggman took over a kingdom". Archie continuity is a complete clusterfuck and even Satam requires some amount of detail and lore establishment, again, for almost half a dozen characters. This is not asking for something very basic, especially given the games reputation for story writing.

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1 minute ago, E-122-Psi said:

So is streamlining Archie canon into just "Eggman took over a kingdom". Archie continuity is a complete clusterfuck and even Satam requires some amount of detail and lore establishment, again, for almost half a dozen characters.

It's really not as complicated as you're making it sound, but you do you I guess...

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