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Rally 4 Sally


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I think a Sally solo game will not fly. It needs to be like Halo 2, you switch between Sonic and Sally in story mode. Or akin to Paper Mario, where you can play as Mario and Peach, perhaps like Super Paper Mario where you play as Sonic, Tails, Antoine, and Sally. 

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8 minutes ago, Titan Mecha Sonic said:

I think a Sally solo game will not fly. It needs to be like Halo 2, you switch between Sonic and Sally in story mode. Or akin to Paper Mario, where you can play as Mario and Peach, perhaps like Super Paper Mario where you play as Sonic, Tails, Antoine, and Sally. 

I think if there was a SatAm themed game where you can play as Sally and Antoine but NOT Bunnie then there'd be outcry. :P

Seriously Bunnie is the one ready made to be a fun playable character and they choose the 'normies'?

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39 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I think if there was a SatAm themed game where you can play as Sally and Antoine but NOT Bunnie then there'd be outcry. :P

Seriously Bunnie is the one ready made to be a fun playable character and they choose the 'normies'?

Alright, we’ll add bunny. ;) 

As she says, “sugar.” We need sugar in the video games. :D 

 

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I'm all for Sally and co. coming into the games. If Tangle and Whisper can do it, why not them? I think it'd be great! Would be awesome to see them finally acknowledged and brought into the games. *Sigh*, I miss the stories and comics...

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If they could give us gameplay that’s nothing but wondering around for emeralds and literal fishing, I’m sure they can come up with something for Sally and Bunnie to do in the games.

I know that SatAm game that was pitched a long time ago didn’t happen because it was supposedly too slow paced for a Sonic game but that can’t be a reason anymore.

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1 hour ago, Wildcat said:

If they could give us gameplay that’s nothing but wondering around for emeralds and literal fishing, I’m sure they can come up with something for Sally and Bunnie to do in the games.

I know that SatAm game that was pitched a long time ago didn’t happen because it was supposedly too slow paced for a Sonic game but that can’t be a reason anymore.

I can see Bunnie's gameplay being similar to how Gamma and the mechs from SA2 played. Lock on far opponents with blaster fire and melee the close opponents, maybe have a button that switches between the two modes. Karate fighting bunny! XD

For Sally, maybe a bit of Sonic's style mixed with a bit of the stealth mechanic from Rouge's egg pyramid level, stay in the shadows to avoid patrols, and do some sabotage? I think that would be cool. :D Sally going metal gear route lol

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Ya that’s exactly the kind of stuff I was thinking.

Their missions could be infiltrating and hacking into Robotniks systems so Sonic can get through.

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5 minutes ago, Wildcat said:

Ya that’s exactly the kind of stuff I was thinking.

Their missions could be infiltrating and hacking into Robotniks systems so Sonic can get through.

That would be so cool. It would be like playing a scenario from the SatAm cartoon. Hacking the security as Sally, then causing a distraction as Bunnie, finally delivering the coup de grace as Sonic zooming in to the base! Ahhh, the memories... :D Wish the cartoon got a 3rd season.

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Well there is that fanmade Season 3 being made.

Another thought I just had was Bunnie could have multiple abilities similar to the Wispons in Forces. They could be built-in to her robotic arm. She could acquire upgrades during the game and of course her final level could include using them all.

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13 minutes ago, Wildcat said:

Well there is that fanmade Season 3 being made.

Another thought I just had was Bunnie could have multiple abilities similar to the Wispons in Forces. They could be built-in to her robotic arm. She could acquire upgrades during the game and of course her final level could include using them all.

Now I'm getting Metroid Prime vibes. That sounds awesome! Maybe Tails and Rotor could do the upgrading depending on how many rings you collect. That way rings have a use again too. Two birds as they say XD

I can see it now. Come back to base fresh off a mission to the hub world, and you go to the workshop. Here you can spend rings on upgrades. Sonic's and Tails' shoes, upgrades for Nicole's portable device, Bunnie's arm weaponry. So many possibilities! ...Dangit, now I REALLY want this to be a thing! LOL

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Ya. Maybe the hub or base could be inspired by knothole. That’d be cool.

It probably won’t happen anytime soon but like I mentioned before I think Sega will eventually revive these characters and put them in the games. They fit just as well as any of the other side character. Never being used before works in their favor having accumulated a following. I’m sure newer fans would find them appealing too even if they never saw the cartoon.

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22 minutes ago, Wildcat said:

Ya. Maybe the hub or base could be inspired by knothole. That’d be cool.

It probably won’t happen anytime soon but like I mentioned before I think Sega will eventually revive these characters and put them in the games. They fit just as well as any of the other side character. Never being used before works in their favor having accumulated a following. I’m sure newer fans would find them appealing too even if they never saw the cartoon.

Definitely! A hub world based on knothole would be sweet. It would need that ridiculous hidden entrance slide for it to feel complete to me though. Maybe a mini game like the snow boarding in Sonic Adventure? Get as many flags as possible on the way down! XD

I honestly think new fans would really like them. They'd certainly fit in, as you said. Plus it'd be nice to have new (kinda?) characters to join the fold. Hey, we can dream right? Come on Sega!

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7 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

I'm still not sold on later comics Sally, largely because I wasn't big on the redesign and I thought the direct combat laser blades kinda clashed with her cautious strategist personality. I always felt like they should have given Sally more meticulous gadgetry and powerss if they wanted to make her abilities more distinct (NICOLE already sort of fit that, but then NICOLE became a character in her own right).

I think also giving her a more upfront and reckless approach also only exacerbated the whole 'chastises Sonic's recklessness but is NEVER called out on her hypocrisy' issue, since it was actually starting to become a full-time thing. Seriously the writers NEVER noticed this bullshit? NOT ONCE? Even after they Flanderized it?

So make her Kim Possible.

I'm down for it XD

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I still think there's some elements of SatAm/Archie that are divisive purely in archetype rather than just how different they are from the games, which to me would suggest even if they translate them to be more uniform with the games style it would still be an upward hill battle to appeal them universally (eg. the darker plot with a less sympathetic Eggman, Sally's 'rightly self righteous' archetype, especially with how often it is designed to undermine the main character, Antoine and Dulcy's general comic relief traits, the stealth focus that would likely trickle heavily into gameplay, the further usage of the Freedom Fighter format over individual character driven agendas).

Satam/Archie's format after all was far from perfect (what take on Sonic IS?) so I think making it approachable would mean a lot more effort than just adding a SEGA paint job to it all. That didn't make the reboot universally beloved after all. Some sacrifices would need to made from either end and that can affect reception from either the Satam/Archie or SEGA end of the fanbase.

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36 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I still think there's some elements of SatAm/Archie that are divisive purely in archetype rather than just how different they are from the games, which to me would suggest even if they translate them to be more uniform with the games style it would still be an upward hill battle to appeal them universally (eg. the darker plot with a less sympathetic Eggman, Sally's 'rightly self righteous' archetype, especially with how often it is designed to undermine the main character, Antoine and Dulcy's general comic relief traits, the stealth focus that would likely trickle heavily into gameplay, the further usage of the Freedom Fighter format over individual plot lines).

Satam/Archie's format after all was far from perfect (what take on Sonic IS?) so I think making it approachable would mean a lot more effort than just adding a SEGA paint job to it all. That didn't make the reboot universally beloved after all. Some sacrifices would need to made from either end.

To be sure, some things would have to be altered. As you stated, the SatAm Robotnik and the games Eggman are very different creatures. One more comical and goofy, the other the sort of thing you check under your bed for at night (those glowing eyes though 😮 )

If Sonic forces had been a change to how Eggman worked, and not had been just a one off thing, things would have been much easier to implement. Eggman, finally done with playing nice (in his terms) decides to go full on warlord and takes over the world! The freedom fighters would have been quite easy to implement here.

As it happens though, this wasn't the case. Hmmm, perhaps a bit of rewriting could help here. Ok how about this? Stay with me here. Instead of how it happens in the cartoon, perhaps it could go something like this?

'Sonic and friends receive a distress call from the kingdom of Acorn. This call came from Princess Sally, a childhood friend of Sonic's when he was a kid. Eggman has banished her father, and captured and enslaved (robotisized?) the whole kingdom. Using his new workforce, he begins cutting down the forest to fuel his ever growing Eggman Empire, and starts using the land to create more factories and robots. Repurposing the now empty mobotropolis, Eggman reforges it into Robotropolis, his newest base. Waste not right? Maybe even repurpose some old swatbots of his (pretty sure they were mentioned in Sonic Chronicles) to serve as a cheap security force. Why waste perfectly functioning and already built robots after all?

Sonic, along with Tails, and maybe Amy, rush in to help Sally and her freedom fighters to save their home. They end up finding their headquarters in Knothole, an old hidden village repurposed into a safe haven for the surviving Acorn folk.'

Maybe something like this could work? Relationships could be made throughout gameplay, and would explain things like how Tails comes to call Sally 'Aunt Sally', or how Sonic and Sally met. I don't know. Maybe? Either way, some retconning would have to be done sadly, but whether on the cartoons part, or the games, I don't know what's be for the best. Maybe they really did all know each other when growing up? Maybe they've never met each other at all before this point? Personally I'd go with the Sonic/Sally only childhood friend route, but who knows how Sega would handle it.

As for gameplay, I can see it going the route of Sonic Adventure mixed with classic style. Different play styles for the characters, each able to go through different routes on the map. I don't know. I'm trying here XD

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57 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I still think there's some elements of SatAm/Archie that are divisive purely in archetype rather than just how different they are from the games, which to me would suggest even if they translate them to be more uniform with the games style it would still be an upward hill battle to appeal them universally (eg. the darker plot with a less sympathetic Eggman, Sally's 'rightly self righteous' archetype, especially with how often it is designed to undermine the main character, Antoine and Dulcy's general comic relief traits, the stealth focus that would likely trickle heavily into gameplay, the further usage of the Freedom Fighter format over individual character driven agendas).

 

Satam/Archie's format after all was far from perfect (what take on Sonic IS?) so I think making it approachable would mean a lot more effort than just adding a SEGA paint job to it all. That didn't make the reboot universally beloved after all. Some sacrifices would need to made from either end and that can affect reception from either the Satam/Archie or SEGA end of the fanbase.

Sonic has already done most of these things already and the few archetypes that you're mentioning as 'controversial' are actually common archetypes for a reason. The dreaded female deuteragonist that compliments the more physically powerful male protagonist with her wit is a trope that exists in literally every Marvel movie and despite how bored I got with it in that franchise I actually rarely see it brought up as a negative. This is the most popular franchise on earth we're talking about BTW. 

These aren't "divisive" tropes. They're your highly specific takes about the Freedom Fighters and archie, framed as having more merit than they actually do by referring to nebulous groups that don't seem to exist in the community. Most of the naysayers in this thread and elsewhere cite much more general concerns like split screentime or just plain apathy for the old american Sonic cast. 

Satam is not some niche controversial twist on the franchise. It's one of many examples of Sonic mining popular tropes and building stories around them, and 'the resistance' never actually stopped being a popular framework to build a story around either considering there's at least one Sonic thing that dips into it every few years. 

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1 hour ago, antyep said:

So make her Kim Possible.

I'm down for it XD

Fuck yeah! I’d definitely love a playable Sally that flipped around and kicked ass like Kim Possible.

Damn, now that I think of it, Sally and Kim have a lot in common, only difference being royalty and leadership skills what with Kim usually working by herself or a small group of 2-3 people (with exceptions, it’s been a while since I’ve watched Kim Possible).

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What you guys think of this idea? I thought about a few days ago.

Place SatAm in between Sonic 3D Blast and Adventure. There was no major Sonic game for awhile til the Dreamcast. So there’s plenty of time for Sonic to have “been away”. I would even go as far as including 3D Blast into the story.

3D Blast takes place on Flicky Island and the goal is to rescue robotisized animals. I know that’s part of every game but it was the main objective. So with that in mind you could say Robotnik attacked Flicky Island, either to test out his machines or distract Sonic while he took over Sally’s kingdom.

After restoring the Flickies, Sonic and Tails discover Knothole and so on with the cartoon. Afterwards they leave and Sonic Adventure happens. It’s a separate place Sonic visited. Like Flicky Island. We just didn’t play it.

Im sure some details need reworking. Robotniks different personality should not matter that much. His look changed in SA and before that never talked in-game anyway. Maybe his really evil demeanor faded or something. He’s still bad.

Doing this allows the FF to finally appear in the games but it also keeps the cartoon intact for the most part.

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9 minutes ago, Wildcat said:

What you guys think of this idea? I thought about a few days ago.

Place SatAm in between Sonic 3D Blast and Adventure. There was no major Sonic game for awhile til the Dreamcast. So there’s plenty of time for Sonic to have “been away”. I would even go as far as including 3D Blast into the story.

3D Blast takes place on Flicky Island and the goal is to rescue robotisized animals. I know that’s part of every game but it was the main objective. So with that in mind you could say Robotnik attacked Flicky Island, either to test out his machines or distract Sonic while he took over Sally’s kingdom.

After restoring the Flickies, Sonic and Tails discover Knothole and so on with the cartoon. Afterwards they leave and Sonic Adventure happens. It’s a separate place Sonic visited. Like Flicky Island. We just didn’t play it.

Im sure some details need reworking. Robotniks different personality should not matter that much. His look changed in SA and before that never talked in-game anyway. Maybe his really evil demeanor faded or something. He’s still bad.

Doing this allows the FF to finally appear in the games but it also keeps the cartoon intact for the most part.

So basically Archie’s Sonic Blast one-shot special, but bigger?

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Oh was not aware of that. Like I said before lost track of the comics.

Ya something like that. I mean 3D Blast/Flicky Island would be “on the way to” Knothole.

Then whatever new game the FF are introduced in they would have already met Sonic and Tails. Like...hey how has your kingdom been?

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Re: Sally not having much character depth

I blame bad writing from Penders. I think Sally is a character who can be more than the straight man... when she's allowed to be.

I feel like SatAM at least gave her moments of vulnerability and weakness. Was it perfect? No. But that's why I think reimagining is so important. Take what works, improve what doesn't.

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What sort of things do you think worked that you'd keep? Personally, I'd keep her caring side, being like family to others, whether as a sister, aunt or whatever. I'd also keep the strategic side to her, coming up with plans to thwart Eggman's schemes. More a thinker, less a fighter. Not to say she couldn't fight, goodness no. Just think she'd be more of a strategist than a brawler. Hmm, maybe Sonic Forces' resistance might of lost less troops if she was in charge rather than Knuckles and his made-in-two-minutes tactics (Seriously Knuckles, put more time into your plans! People are relying on you!)

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On 8/27/2020 at 4:51 AM, Zaysho said:

There's a transcript that actually answers a question I had regarding Kitching offering Flynn the use of the Metallix, which he couldn't do and even suggested that Archie did receive flak at some point for Fleetway cameos.

 

I vaguely remember this around 2005-1010.

From my understanding, the flak wasn't legal flak or problems from Sega, it was from the fans!

 

Basically, this was at a time when Yahoo groups were a thing and that was the only form of 'instant' communication between fans and the comic staff. I want to say that a lot of fleetway or archie fans kicked off at the Fleetway Yahoo email/group because the fleetway characters had a cameo.

Now this is over 10 years ago so I don't remember exactly what happened but it was either a case of Fleetway fans being mad that their characters had appeared in archie. Or Archie fans being mad that fleetway was invading their comic.

 

But from what I remember, it was more fans kicked up a fuss and not Sega or the various publishing companies.

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3 hours ago, Mega said:

Re: Sally not having much character depth

I blame bad writing from Penders. I think Sally is a character who can be more than the straight man... when she's allowed to be.

I feel like SatAM at least gave her moments of vulnerability and weakness. Was it perfect? No. But that's why I think reimagining is so important. Take what works, improve what doesn't.

I think the issues actually started during the later half of the show, as seen with this analysis of the head writer at  the time:

Quote

The wonderful thing about Sal is that, not only is she strong and capable, she can give as well as get in any exchange with Sonic. She doesn't order him around — she cajoles, persuades, convinces him to go in the direction she suggests — but as we all know — if Sonic really doesn't want to go in her direction — it just plain old ain't gonna happen.

To me Ben Hurst really simplified how Sally worked. Sally wasn't just a calm mediator to how unreasonable Sonic was in Season One, she could be snide, competitive and equally bull headed, even in Season Two, her "persuasion" was often crammed with a lot of condescending. Again I saw Sally as a well meaning ascended mother figure, but one who always thought she knew what was best for everyone more than they did and when challenged could be twice as childish and fussy as those she argued with, in other words she was still an opinionated kid deep down. I think ignoring this key vice  was what started the 'rightly self righteous' characterisation that took over in the comics and made her so damn divisive; a character that had a chip on her shoulder, but at nearly every point had the RIGHT to be, because she was dealing with fools and any rare person who remotely called her out was a tenth the strategist she was.

The same could be said for Sonic in most medias but nearly every portrayal knows to have moments where Sonic's hubris is undermined and backfires onto him and he is made to acknowledge how flat out arrogant he can be (hell that is exactly what Sally was there for), while the later show and comics, even when TRYING to make Sally more flawed, tended to keep her own hubris this elephant in the room, which I think really stood in the way of making her a proper depthful character with a defining vice. It's astonishing how much of her dynamic revolved around her being a hypocrite about Sonic's impulsiveness and ego and yet she ALWAYS got away with it with never even a single light rebuke or comparison. Again I think this was only punctuated by the fact that Hurst also set up Sally as practically a co-lead to Sonic, despite limiting her personality into that of a supporting character. A straight man's lack of negative qualities doesn't feel so glaring when they're in their usual side role, but as a main character it becomes more obvious they lack as many drives and thus the complaints Sally sometimes suffered of being a 'Mary Sue' or 'boring' kicked in, even if they maybe weren't the direct intent. She was just doing her role but it wasn't enough steam anymore.

I feel like the writers didn't really like 'picking on' Sally. While even Hurst might have made fun of her pomposity the odd time, the comics tended to play nearly every error she made as a pure tearjerker and rarely had them effect her relationships with her teammates, who never undermined her, even in a playful way (compare to something like say the whole team mocking Boom Amy's 'take charge' attitude causing a disaster in 'Closed Door Policy', even for laughs like it was there, I don't think they'd EVER do that with Sally). I guess this sorta tied to the idea of them not thinking Sally had a problematic hubris, I mean obviously writers wouldn't usually feel fit to give a cherub like Cream a humiliating 'break the haughty' moment, she's not arrogant as a defining trait so it would just feel mean spirited. I think the writers perceiving Sally as a "modest" foil to Sonic's ego led them to feel the same about her. Why do you want this character to fall flat on her ass so?

I guess this is where I think Sally is dangerous in terms of relationships with the games cast. While games Sonic is far from perfectly handled, I feel right now they have the balance of him being competent but still having his hubris as something of an actual flaw (eg. having his jokes mocked in Colours, getting called out for screwing up royal in Lost World, several moments he jumps the gun in TSR) and I think it's helped by the fact that he is among a cast that are for the large part 'equals' in that sense, they can balance him at times but they are just as fallible and silly. Sally on the other hand has the distinction of being designated on the top of the hierarchy nearly ALL the time (sometimes undeservedly so) which I think could risk narrowing down Sonic and other characters to just their negative qualities more often to make her role as foil work, something which already happened in SatAm's last season. I think to make her work she would have to take her turn at least once in a while and ditch the 'rightly' part of the 'rightly self righteous' archetype.

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21 hours ago, Titan Mecha Sonic said:

I’d play up the Sally in the later comics and use SatAM Sally. Have her be the Jane Bond if you will. 

 

21 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

Well yeah but that's the wrong Sally Acorn. The one that had a sex change, shrunk several feet, forsook their sapience and now goes under the name of Ricky. :P

For what it's worth, I was just dunking on the idea of basing a Princess Sally game on a comic story she was barely even a part of.

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