Why dose a lot of people dislike big the cat

[E-122-Psi]

4 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

What was that?

They had an episode where Peter is officially diagnosed mentally retarded.

Again though Family Guy is a shock value focused adult cartoon. You wouldn't see the same thing with say, Patrick from Spongebob Squarepants, even when they make him barely intelligent enough to breathe.

[Scritch the Cat]

On 8/29/2020 at 10:20 AM, DabigRG said:

Where is this stuff about the mentally challenged coming from?

Big is a simpleton with a laid back lifestyle who wanders in and out of a high speedepic action adventure story because his pet got taken away in it(which he acknowledges before his final "boss").

End of story.

For the record, it comes mostly from John St John’s choice of making him sound stupid.  I went and listened to the Japanese audio and that actor just makes him sound...well; I’m not familiar enough with Japanese dialects to tell exactly what he was going for, but it didn’t sound like stupidity.  I think a Cajun accent would likely be a better English analogue to what was intended there; or if that’s too obscure, a southern US accent.

John St John’s choice of voice didn’t do much more than make him sound stupid, but subsequent games would have writing that reinforced that, as with LEGO Dimensions, where he tasked Sonic with finding Froggy, and took a while to remember that he was a frog.  Which on the one hand, does put Big more properly into a comedic format, compared to the first game where his perceived stupidity wasn’t played for anything but an obnoxious voice, but on the other, it’s indulging a freak accident that goes against the creator’s intent. Not that the creator’s intent is an unassailable standard to me, though.

Now, since it’s been brought up, as morbid a story as Of Mice and Men is, the Dumb Muscle trope has been played for laughs so much that almost none of my High School class was able to take that book seriously.  That’s probably a lot of why “fixing” Big, from where he had been in SA, mostly involved adding jokes.  At this point, there isn’t much chance of making him more like, say, the Apple Family from My Little Pony, even if that was the original intent.  And I think another major reason that’s not likely is that in his debut game, he earned so much scorn.  If the attempt to legitimize Big’s lifestyle and attitude had been wed to fun gameplay, it may have succeeded, but it went over so badly that many would rather mock him.

[DabigRG]

17 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

They had an episode where Peter is officially diagnosed mentally retarded.

Again though Family Guy is a shock value focused adult cartoon. You wouldn't see the same thing with say, Patrick from Spongebob Squarepants, even when they make him barely intelligent enough to breathe.

Oh, I might have seen that a while before I stopped watching. That's where he was using it as an excuse to do whatever, right?

59 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

For the record, it comes mostly from John St John’s choice of making him sound stupid.  I went and listened to the Japanese audio and that actor just makes him sound...well; I’m not familiar enough with Japanese dialects to tell exactly what he was going for, but it didn’t sound like stupidity.  I think a Cajun accent would likely be a better English analogue to what was intended there; or if that’s too obscure, a southern US accent.

John St John’s choice of voice didn’t do much more than make him sound stupid, but subsequent games would have writing that reinforced that, as with LEGO Dimensions, where he tasked Sonic with finding Froggy, and took a while to remember that he was a frog.  Which on the one hand, does put Big more properly into a comedic format, compared to the first game where his perceived stupidity wasn’t played for anything but an obnoxious voice, but on the other, it’s indulging a freak accident that goes against the creator’s intent. Not that the creator’s intent is an unassailable standard to me, though.

Now, since it’s been brought up, as morbid a story as Of Mice and Men is, the Dumb Muscle trope has been played for laughs so much that almost none of my High School class was able to take that book seriously.  That’s probably a lot of why “fixing” Big, from where he had been in SA, mostly involved adding jokes.  At this point, there isn’t much chance of making him more like, say, the Apple Family from My Little Pony, even if that was the original intent.  And I think another major reason that’s not likely is that in his debut game, he earned so much scorn.  If the attempt to legitimize Big’s lifestyle and attitude had been wed to fun gameplay, it may have succeeded, but it went over so badly that many would rather mock him.

To be a little fair to St. John, he apparently Big's initial voice on the spot in jest and the English voice directors: said, "Yeah, do that." To which he was like, "Fuck no, are you serious?" but that's what they wanted.

That also seems to be something that gets lost in translation quite a bit. See also Tentomon, Goku, and I wanna say Sasha Braid.

Admittedly though, this might be the first time I've heard of Big supposedly being a bumpkin. 

[E-122-Psi]

46 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Oh, I might have seen that a while before I stopped watching. That's where he was using it as an excuse to do whatever, right?

Yeah, granted that episode felt more like a 'Peter's a sociopath' transition than a 'Peter's a moron' one.

About Big's Japanese VA, wasn't he also the original VA for Winnie the Pooh, which admittedly is kind of fitting personality wise?

[Shadow Chaos Control]

Big does serve a purpose, he makes us face the question if we fans can tolerate slow, almost mute, weighty characters. Big is an antithesis of Sonic, more so than Shadow or Mecha Sonic. Had Sonic TEAM and SEGA explored this more, making Big the AntiSonic that might have been interesting, perhaps him being a villian secretly who is plotting as he seems to be nothing but a fishing silent type., 

[DabigRG]

54 minutes ago, Titan Mecha Sonic said:

Big does serve a purpose, he makes us face the question if we fans can tolerate slow, almost mute, weighty characters. Big is an antithesis of Sonic, more so than Shadow or Mecha Sonic. Had Sonic TEAM and SEGA explored this more, making Big the AntiSonic that might have been interesting

That is very true: he was added to the game as a deviation from everything else that would encourage players to chill out every once in a while.

[Shadow Chaos Control]

On 8/30/2020 at 2:58 PM, DabigRG said:

That is very true: he was added to the game as a deviation from everything else that would encourage players to chill out every once in a while.

It would have been neat is Big actually defeated Mogul or Black Doom, that he in his quietness knew secrets that elude even sages in the Sonic Universe.  

 

[Scritch the Cat]

1 hour ago, Titan Mecha Sonic said:

Big does serve a purpose, he makes us face the question if we fans can tolerate slow, almost mute, weighty characters. Big is an antithesis of Sonic, more so than Shadow or Mecha Sonic. Had Sonic TEAM and SEGA explored this more, making Big the AntiSonic that might have been interesting, perhaps him being a villian secretly who is plotting as he seems to be nothing but a fishing silent type., 

 

39 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

That is very true: he was added to the game as a deviation from everything else that would encourage players to chill out every once in a while.

Validate that as a test if you wish, but gamers are not mandated to test positive.  SEGA isn’t justified in criticizing them if they don’t when the hero they sold us taps his feet and checks his watch when you press nothing.  Also many would opine that the Chao garden is already a much better example of a laid back alternative to normal Sonic play.

[Nathan]

It whould be cool if big was a spy

[DabigRG]

2 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

 

Validate that as a test if you wish, but gamers are not mandated to test positive.  SEGA isn’t justified in criticizing them if they don’t when the hero they sold us taps his feet and checks his watch when you press nothing.  Also many would opine that the Chao garden is already a much better example of a laid back alternative to normal Sonic play.

Huh? Oh you mean intent vs. execution.

 

 

[Scritch the Cat]

3 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Huh? Oh you mean intent vs. execution.

 

 

Honestly, intent notwithstanding, Sonic fans overall have never been keen on slower portions of Sonic games.  This was evident as early as Marble Zone, Labyrinth Zone, and Metropolis Zone, though I personally actually have a soft spot for Labyrinth Zone.  When the pitch of the series is that it’s fast, bits of it that aren’t fast easily come off as cheap attempts to pad it out.

That’s not to say Big couldn’t have been executed better.  He could have moved a bit faster, jumped and attacked better had a few more moves.  But fishing isn’t something you can do fast.  They might succeed at making a good fishing game, but that wouldn’t make it a good Sonic game.

[Shadow Chaos Control]

20 hours ago, Nathan said:

It whould be cool if big was a spy

A Spy for who? 

[Nathan]

Eggman the whole time

[E-122-Psi]

On 8/31/2020 at 6:52 AM, Scritch the Cat said:

Honestly, intent notwithstanding, Sonic fans overall have never been keen on slower portions of Sonic games.  This was evident as early as Marble Zone, Labyrinth Zone, and Metropolis Zone, though I personally actually have a soft spot for Labyrinth Zone.  When the pitch of the series is that it’s fast, bits of it that aren’t fast easily come off as cheap attempts to pad it out.

That’s not to say Big couldn’t have been executed better.  He could have moved a bit faster, jumped and attacked better had a few more moves.  But fishing isn’t something you can do fast.  They might succeed at making a good fishing game, but that wouldn’t make it a good Sonic game.

I don't think doing things 'slow' is bad on paper, there are many elements in Sonic you can choose to do at your own pace, but there remains this sort of briskness about it. People criticise the Sonic 1 levels because often they force you to screech to a halt to do some tedious obstacle, and it's often in the form of something you cannot make go faster in any way, even if you get better at it. That's not slow in a way that is 'chill' and 'relaxed' that adds annoyance and restriction.

The problem with Big isn't that it's on paper 'slow' but more that it does so in a way that feels like it's adding frustration onto you rather than trying to make the game more relaxing. Big being slow enough to pace around the level without fear of reckless colliding is fine, but Big is slow to the point he's like dragging a ball and chain, while his lack of attacks besides his finicky rod throw also leaves players having dabble cautiously through the levels. Even the fishing could have worked if it was simplified enough but the not always easy to understand controlling through many off and made it a tedium. Adding challenge to the 'chill out' session isn't a bad thing, but it's through all the things that are meant to make it a 'chill out' session crippling you.

I mean let's say we had a slightly slower more laid back take on Big's gameplay in Heroes, placed him a small, out open but still intuitive level, and then stuck a Big's Fishing Derby type minigame at the end of it in place of a boss. That actually sounds like it would rather fun.

[Shadow Chaos Control]

I have to admit this entire discussion has swayed me into a Big the Cat fan. 

[Nathan]

Yes I though this whould get no reply’s

[Scritch the Cat]

On 9/2/2020 at 6:37 PM, Nathan said:

Yes I though this whould get no reply’s

Actually, there’s a lot that can be said about Big, and it’s mainly because he’s so symbolic of old shame as (what many consider) the worst part of the Adventure era.  Given that the series has gone on to remove not just Big, but even characters people liked, many people have dissected just why Big’s gameplay doesn’t work, as a way to emphasize that this isn’t justification for getting rid of other characters, since their gameplay does work, or at least it can.  We need to make it clear to SEGA that gameplay is what makes or breaks a character, Sonic included.

Edit: But that doesn’t mean Big’s original plot and characterization aren’t genuinely terrible in their own right.  The derpy voice would still get on many people’s nerves, and the scenario is one you can’t take seriously, so the only perceivable way to improve it is to make it more parodic.  Which might be why, even as many characters are pushed to the sidelines, Big is still being referenced a lot; this series‘ image has gotten heavily into in-jokes.

[E-122-Psi]

11 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Actually, there’s a lot that can be said about Big, and it’s mainly because he’s so symbolic of old shame as (what many consider) the worst part of the Adventure era.  Given that the series has gone on to remove not just Big, but even characters people liked, many people have dissected just why Big’s gameplay doesn’t work, as a way to emphasize that this isn’t justification for getting rid of other characters, since their gameplay does work, or at least it can.  We need to make it clear to SEGA that gameplay is what makes or breaks a character, Sonic included.

Edit: But that doesn’t mean Big’s original plot and characterization aren’t genuinely terrible in their own right.  The derpy voice would still get on many people’s nerves, and the scenario is one you can’t take seriously, so the only perceivable way to include it is to make it more parodic.  Which might be why, even as many characters are pushed to the sidelines, Big is still being referenced a lot; this series‘ image has gotten heavily into in-jokes.

The thing is that even with Big's questionable and downplayed use, they've still shown moments of trying to improve on him and make him work. Heroes shown they could give Big a more intuitive Sonic-loyal gameplay that still sticks to his quirks and slowness, and some works have shown an ability to make his personality less one note without making him OOC. Counting fan works we've even seen how his fishing mechanics could be made into a fun alternative.

I don't really begrudge Big because I think Sonic Adventure kept true to the original games' 'giant surreal skatepark' dynamic, making the gameplay this huge playing area where all the characters can fiddle around in it in their own way at their leisure. SA1's key problem was that Big's format was largely doing such in a way that had barely any unique abilities or exploitations that made the game more entertaining, and revolving his game less on the actual levels and more on a mini-game that ultimately wasn't very fun as the actual centrepiece (the whole mini game-centric experience can be applied to others like Knuckles as well, though at least they make full use of their levels and abilities). There's plenty of ways to make the 'chill out' campaign of the game a fun attraction without completely disregarding Big's normal shtick and I feel like the creative team have done JUST enough in terms of fixing Big to show he isn't a lost cause. It's just a shame they don't go much further with it.

I do appreciate at least that Big wasn't just one of those characters like Scrappy Doo that the creative team just caved into fan's impressions of and just deemed a lost cause. At the same time he's not a character they stubbornly latch onto and refuse to compromise in any way no matter what critique is given. They have slowly and shrewdly tried to show Big has potential if rinsed and refined, making him into the modest supporting character he is today.

[Shadow Chaos Control]

What I wonder is why they choose Big to be a Cat? Was it simply there wasn’t enough felines in the Sonic Universe? Why not make Big a Elephant? (Mogul anyone?). Then his trunk could have served in his fishing and his slowness would be more acceptable if he was elephant. 

[Nathan]

Actually I like that idea of a elephant cause I never really like bigs Design it freaks me out kinda 

[Shadow Chaos Control]

10 minutes ago, Nathan said:

Actually I like that idea of a elephant cause I never really like bigs Design it freaks me out kinda 

[Nathan]

If whould be nice if He was no so dumb to