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MetalSkulkBane

How strong is Amy without hammer?

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For most Sonic characters I have good idea how strong they are. I'm just unsure about Amy.

She breaks really big robots, fought Iron King, creates small tornados, etc All with her hammer. Is it possible that it's just magic hammer and her strength is that of civilian?

Hammer is large, but based on a toy, so we don't know it's dang weight. It can smash robots, so what? It can be magic or cartoon logic. The only other person to ever hold it (as far as I remember) is Shadow in Archie's Sonic Universe (treasure team tango). So not best source of data, especially since Shadow might have some super strength on his own. (by "Super" I mean "somewhat above Sonic). He flips cars in his own game.

I only remember one scene when she did something without hammer. A baseball game.

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I would say "not very". And that the hammer doesn't add a whole lot, either.

Amy was introduced as a character who was simply "normal". She wasn't playable, she had no superpowers or relevant skills, her role was simply to be captured and rescued. Even when she eventually gets her big break in SA, she starts out lamenting how mundane her life is when she's not around Sonic, and spends every level focused on running away from a robot she's not strong enough to beat. And while she does beat Zero in the end, it has more to do with her gathering up the courage to stand up to him (and some convenient environmental damage) than her becoming physically stronger than before.

So I think that's pretty much the core of Amy as a fighter. She's certainly not helpless, but she's not really meant to be a powerful fighter. She's a mostly ordinary girl in extraordinary situations. She's gained more abilities in later games, but I think that's a combination of mechanical balance (compare SA's "every character is unique" design to Heroes' explicit categories) and...honestly just sort of losing where they were going with things.

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This just goes back to what you think is canon or not. Because games like Heroes and advance 1-3 have Amy do a ton of stuff without her hammer, but is that just gameplay or not?

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This depends really on if you count gameplay as a character's canonical display of their abilities.

Gameplay wise, she kind of needs to be capable for the sake of character balance. So generally she's better in that sense.

Lore-wise it seems pretty clear cut that while she can hold her own well enough, she's really not on par with the strong guys like Sonic or Knuckles, hammer or not. Most of the Adventure games has her lamenting how Sonic always leaves her behind, and she contributes the least of the four hero characters in the sequel outside of the last story with Shadow.

Its less that Amy is "weak" and more that she's just overshadowed by the characters with much more flashy abilities.

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5 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

For most Sonic characters I have good idea how strong they are. I'm just unsure about Amy.

She breaks really big robots, fought Iron King, creates small tornados, etc All with her hammer. Is it possible that it's just magic hammer and her strength is that of civilian?

Hammer is large, but based on a toy, so we don't know it's dang weight. It can smash robots, so what? It can be magic or cartoon logic. The only other person to ever hold it (as far as I remember) is Shadow in Archie's Sonic Universe (treasure team tango). So not best source of data, especially since Shadow might have some super strength on his own. (by "Super" I mean "somewhat above Sonic). He flips cars in his own game.

I only remember one scene when she did something without hammer. A baseball game.

I seem to remember Mighty using it to smash down a wall in the later Archie (post reboot) comics. It seems to be just an extension of Amy's arm.

 

That said, Amy also had a crossbow in the Fleetway Sonic comics, but this was before the games had her use the hammer.

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Sonic Battle implied that Amy is actually quite a formidable athlete, or was becoming one.  And she managed to fight without the use of her hammer in Sonic Heroes (Except for the tornado attack) and Shadow the Hedgehog.  It’s maybe tempting to say that her hammer is magical, as she seems to pull it out of nowhere, but it’s all relative; all Sonic characters can collect and carry various objects in an unclear place, most notably rings but in the SA games there are also the animals and chaos drives.  Even if there’s a some supernatural powers involved in the hammer, SB implied that it’s holder’s strength is still important.  Boxing and lifting weights train muscles also used in swinging the hammer around.

Also since it’s been asked, other characters can use the hammer if they team with Amy in Sonic Advance 3.

Of course, how lame Amy got again in S06 kind of shoots down the notion she was toughening up, but lots of characters were lame in that game since it wasn’t finished.

As to what games ought to be canon in determining these things, besides 06 as it is unfinished, I’ll say the only ones I personally discount are the Olympics ones, as they obviously nerf every character’s abilities down to normal human levels and also give everyone every talent in the game, removing any sense of individual identities and interests.

Based on her last few action experiences I count, I’d call Amy the midway, balanced character next to the main trio.  She’s not as strong as Knuckles but she’s probably stronger than Tails and possibly Sonic, she’s not as fast as Sonic but she’s probably faster than Knuckles and possibly faster than Tails, she couldn’t beat Knuckles in a boxing match but she could probably beat Tails in one and possibly Sonic, she can’t fly or even glide but she can jump high.  I also headcannoned elsewhere that Amy has high stamina, though stamina is not an ability demonstrated in the gameplay.

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I like to think Amy is actually one of the physically strongest characters in the series, and the hammer is light and plasticky enough that it hurts less when she smacks people with it, so they don't die.

It would be amazing to have a scene where she hits someone without the hammer and they fly through six walls like that dude in The Incredibles.

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57 minutes ago, Shaddy Zaphod said:

I like to think Amy is actually one of the physically strongest characters in the series, and the hammer is light and plasticky enough that it hurts less when she smacks people with it, so they don't die.

It would be amazing to have a scene where she hits someone without the hammer and they fly through six walls like that dude in The Incredibles.

His name was Gilbert Huph, and Amy’s hammer can break metal robots, so it’s likely something harder than plastic.

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2 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Sonic Battle implied that Amy is actually quite a formidable athlete, or was becoming one.  And she managed to fight without the use of her hammer in Sonic Heroes (Except for the tornado attack) and Shadow the Hedgehog.  It’s maybe tempting to say that her hammer is magical, as she seems to pull it out of nowhere, but it’s all relative; all Sonic characters can collect and carry various objects in an unclear place, most notably rings but in the SA games there are also the animals and chaos drives.  Even if there’s a some supernatural powers involved in the hammer, SB implied that it’s holder’s strength is still important.  Boxing and lifting weights train muscles also used in swinging the hammer around.

Also since it’s been asked, other characters can use the hammer if they team with Amy in Sonic Advance 3.

Of course, how lame Amy got again in S06 kind of shoots down the notion she was toughening up, but lots of characters were lame in that game since it wasn’t finished.

As to what games ought to be canon in determining these things, besides 06 as it is unfinished, I’ll say the only ones I personally discount are the Olympics ones, as they obviously nerf every character’s abilities down to normal human levels and also give everyone every talent in the game, removing any sense of individual identities and interests.

Based on her last few action experiences I count, I’d call Amy the midway, balanced character next to the main trio.  She’s not as strong as Knuckles but she’s probably stronger than Tails and possibly Sonic, she’s not as fast as Sonic but she’s probably faster than Knuckles and possibly faster than Tails, she couldn’t beat Knuckles in a boxing match but she could probably beat Tails in one and possibly Sonic, she can’t fly or even glide but she can jump high.  I also headcannoned elsewhere that Amy has high stamina, though stamina is not an ability demonstrated in the gameplay.

There is the argument in 06 that she saved Sonic from Silver without even swinging her hammer or throwing a punch. If that's not toughening up, I don't know what is. She got angry, but this was warranted. 

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I agree with Diogenes' stance where Amy was meant to be a civilian and not an action hero, so in order to have her measure up they just gave her a big mallet that doesnt fit with her overall character.

 

But that being said....

A hammer is only as strong as the one who can swing it hard enough, so....

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hmmm, she's kind of strong.... with her hammer. without it, Amy (obviously) isn't really strong, at all. going back to that "is tails even a good fighter" topic you made, it doesn't really compute. the other reasons tails is strong(er)  is because that tails at least knows how to keep up with sonic, is a mechanical genius, can defend himself with his skills with fighting, and has the ability to fly. Amy, when you strip everything down.... no not like that, is nothing but a little girl who is very slow (for sonic standards, at least), a "regular" girl with no internally distinct features other than pretty decent acrobatic skills looking back at SA1, basically defenseless outside of outburst, and obviously can't fly.

tl:dr - Amy is a weak character without her hammer, to the point where she's practically useless. you could argue that she's acrobatic, but that's it.

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17 minutes ago, Kaotic Kanine said:

So, are we just gonna ignore how Amy unintentionally sent Knuckles flying into a tree and subsequently knocked out cold with a mere smack of her hand in the ending of Generations?

It's a joke.

Knuckles is a tough guy, Amy is a dainty girl. For her to overpower him, unintentionally even, is unexpected, thus funny.

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23 minutes ago, Kaotic Kanine said:

So, are we just gonna ignore how Amy unintentionally sent Knuckles flying into a tree and subsequently knocked out cold with a mere smack of her hand in the ending of Generations?

Do you not watch Anime and how many girls smack around the "tough guy" as a source of comedy?

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1 hour ago, Natie said:

I agree with Diogenes' stance where Amy was meant to be a civilian and not an action hero, so in order to have her measure up they just gave her a big mallet that doesnt fit with her overall character.

 

But that being said....

A hammer is only as strong as the one who can swing it hard enough, so....

That’s how it looked to people whose first experience with Amy was in Sonic Adventure, but her hammer originated in Sonic The Fighters, a cartoonish fighting game in a series that was inspired by classic slapstick cartoons and often bore that out.  Whether it fit with Amy’s personality is rather irrelevant as she barely had one at the time, and it fit that cartoon vibe well.

And while that didn’t imply she was physically strong, it’s no accident that he time her hammer was at its most formidable was in another fighting game.  A heavy weapon isn’t a very useful asset in games where most enemies can be defeated in one hit so getting a bit in without getting hit back was the important thing.  Meanwhile, in games where HP is a factor, heavy attacks come into their own.

1 hour ago, iambitter21 said:

hmmm, she's kind of strong.... with her hammer. without it, Amy (obviously) isn't really strong, at all. going back to that "is tails even a good fighter" topic you made, it doesn't really compute. the other reasons tails is strong(er)  is because that tails at least knows how to keep up with sonic, is a mechanical genius, can defend himself with his skills with fighting, and has the ability to fly. Amy, when you strip everything down.... no not like that, is nothing but a little girl who is very slow (for sonic standards, at least), a "regular" girl with no internally distinct features other than pretty decent acrobatic skills looking back at SA1, basically defenseless outside of outburst, and obviously can't fly.

tl:dr - Amy is a weak character without her hammer, to the point where she's practically useless. you could argue that she's acrobatic, but that's it.

Seems like you’re ignoring every appearance besides Sonic Adventure.

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44 minutes ago, Kaotic Kanine said:

So, are we just gonna ignore how Amy unintentionally sent Knuckles flying into a tree and subsequently knocked out cold with a mere smack of her hand in the ending of Generations?

 

23 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

It's a joke.

Knuckles is a tough guy, Amy is a dainty girl. For her to overpower him, unintentionally even, is unexpected, thus funny.

 

20 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Do you not watch Anime and how many girls smack around the "tough guy" as a source of comedy?

I think one of the issues here is that people haven’t all come to agree whether “strong” means, say, how heavy characters can lift, or how high the sum of all their physical stats and combat talents are.

So to go based on the first, there’s at least no reason to believe that Any ISN’T strong.  Taking the hammer away doesn’t take away the effects of swinging it around, just as even though Heavy Weapons Guy’s big thing is his chain gun, he’s still noticeably buff from carrying it around and thus not the sort of guy you’d want to anger even if he was unarmed.  Also, while it’s true that female-on-male slapstick violence is common in anime, that doesn’t mean that Amy isn’t really strong enough to do that in a combat scenario, as again, her hammer was also a memetic cartoon gag made into an actual combat tactic.  If anything was to get in the way of her doing that in an actual game, it’s less likely to be the belief that Amy is actually too weak to do that in anything that actually happens, than because fighting games wouldn’t be fun if characters could easily knock each other away.

So while Amy mostly uses her hammer to attack, the strength she’d employ for that would help with punching and grappling, too.  The question is whether Amy has the technical skill to punch or grapple and not be blocked or dodged.  There’s not much evidence that she can do THAT in any game I consider canon.

But I’d still disagree that Amy’s overall physical abilities are low.  She’s been depicted as having high foot speed in more games than depict her not having it.  That she’s fudged into a Sonic clone whenever they aren’t doing anything more unique attests to that.

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5 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

she’s not as fast as Sonic but she’s probably faster than Knuckles and possibly faster than Tails

Tails and Knuckles didn't need a car in Sonic R, and she was slower than both of them in Sonic Adventure. Amy tends to only equal their speed in titles where the the gameplay dictates a more level playing field, like Sonic Advance and Sonic Heroes.

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13 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

So to go based on the first, there’s at least no reason to believe that Any ISN’T strong.  Taking the hammer away doesn’t take away the effects of swinging it around, just as even though Heavy Weapons Guy’s big thing is his chain gun, he’s still noticeably buff from carrying it around and thus not the sort of guy you’d want to anger even if he was unarmed.  Also, while it’s true that female-on-male slapstick violence is common in anime, that doesn’t mean that Amy isn’t really strong enough to do that in a combat scenario, as again, her hammer was also a memetic cartoon gag made into an actual combat tactic.

See this is where we disagree, I don't think that "little girl swings big squeaky hammer, is actually effective" reveals physical truths about the situation, it's all running on joke power. Amy's not crushing robots with physical strength, she's crushing them with the absurdity of a toy hammer being effective. Take away the "joke" and the "strength" vanishes.

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Just now, Diogenes said:

See this is where we disagree, I don't think that "little girl swings big squeaky hammer, is actually effective" reveals physical truths about the situation, it's all running on joke power. Amy's not crushing robots with physical strength, she's crushing them with the absurdity of a toy hammer being effective. Take away the "joke" and the "strength" vanishes.

See, that's the thing; when Amy is destroying robots with her hammer; how much of it is meant to be a joke versus her just being proficient with it? Like, she very obviously can defend herself even if you stripped her down to the most basic of her abilities and skill.

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40 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

See this is where we disagree, I don't think that "little girl swings big squeaky hammer, is actually effective" reveals physical truths about the situation, it's all running on joke power. Amy's not crushing robots with physical strength, she's crushing them with the absurdity of a toy hammer being effective. Take away the "joke" and the "strength" vanishes.

Except that this is not affirmed by the games.  In SB Amy gets better at using the hammer because she’s been working out.  Yes; that is just one game, but again, no game contradicts it and in ShTH she got by with just punches and a homing attack.  Also, maybe there are toy-like aspects to Amy’s hammer, but when cartoon characters pull out such hammers and bonk each other with them, the joke usually doesn’t seem to be that we don’t expect the hammers to hurt; instead they tend to draw attention to just how forceful the blow was by depicting receiving characters as stunned, seeing stars (or birds) and growing bumps on their heads.  Sometimes they’ll be flattened by the hammer.

Moreover, you’re extrapolating a lot about one character while not holding the same prying logic to others.  “Sonic isn’t really a capable fighter because hairs being tough enough to puncture metal is silly” and “Tails isn’t really mobile because using Tails like a helicopter is silly” utilize the same sort of scrutiny.  It seems more like you’re looking for reasons to conclude Amy isn’t strong than anything else.

46 minutes ago, Pengi said:

Tails and Knuckles didn't need a car in Sonic R, and she was slower than both of them in Sonic Adventure. Amy tends to only equal their speed in titles where the the gameplay dictates a more level playing field, like Sonic Advance and Sonic Heroes.

True though all that may be, it bears mentioning that those latter games generally play more as fans think Sonic games ought to play.  I knew Sonic R would come up, and did, in fact, count it as one of the games where Amy couldn’t run fast, but the difference is I’m not discounting games that make her run fast just because it’s out of gameplay concerns.  The bottom line is that SEGA chose to make Amy faster, coinciding nicely with her declaring that she would become more capable and started working out, and she held onto that aspect for a fair amount of games before dropping it, plus when she did the rest of the cast was crashing and burning, too.

Having said all that, I’m generally not a fan of altering all the characters to play more like Sonic so they all can be viable in a Classic Sonic-like game; it’s one of my few problems with Sonic World and I’m glad they’re working on changing that.  It does prevent some characters from reappearing (at least playable) when their old gameplay is discontinued, though, so it’s not quite clear where to draw the line for me.

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I think Amy’s is not so powerful without the hammer like in sonic boom we’re she loses it she can’t help fight the robots even in her first appearance in sonic cd she could not fend for herself when metal got her and in sonic adventure her mission are her just trying to escape the robot so I think Amy is useless without the hammer

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