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How strong is Amy without hammer?


MetalSkulkBane

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32 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

See, that's the thing; when Amy is destroying robots with her hammer; how much of it is meant to be a joke versus her just being proficient with it? Like, she very obviously can defend herself even if you stripped her down to the most basic of her abilities and skill.

I would say it's almost entirely "joke". Or at least, that very little of it is meant to be realistic...which I'd also say for a lot of other things the characters do. Like, Tails tail-slapping robots shouldn't work, if taken seriously; he doesn't actually have such buff ass muscles that he can whip his fluffy appendages hard enough to split metal. It's just...an attack, therefore it does what needs to be done.

Basically I don't take Sonic very literally.

4 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Except that this is not affirmed by the games.  In SB Amy gets better at using the hammer because she’s been working out.

It's pretty trivial to have a character work out and get a bit stronger. That doesn't mean that they are meaningfully strong. And it's not like you could measure Amy getting stronger from working out.

4 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Also, maybe there are toy-like aspects to Amy’s hammer,

It doesn't just have "toy-like aspects", it is literally a toy. Squeaky toy hammers are a thing. "Piko piko hammer" isn't even something Sonic Team came up with, that's literally just what they're called.

4 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

but when cartoon characters pull out such hammers and bonk each other with them, the joke usually doesn’t seem to be that we don’t expect the hammers to hurt; instead they tend to draw attention to just how forceful the blow was by depicting receiving characters as stunned, seeing stars (or birds) and growing bumps on their heads.  Sometimes they’ll be flattened by the hammer.

 

That's the joke, yes.

4 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Moreover, you’re extrapolating a lot about one character while not holding the same prying logic to others.  “Sonic isn’t really a capable fighter because hairs being tough enough to puncture metal is silly” and “Tails isn’t really mobile because using Tails like a helicopter is silly” utilize the same sort of scrutiny.  It seems more like you’re looking for reasons to conclude Amy isn’t strong more than anything else.

No I do apply the same thing to the other characters, but like I said above, I don't take these things literally. Amy can smash robots with her toy hammer, not because she has immense physical strength, but because of the joke of a squeaky hammer wielded by a young girl being effective. Tails can fly not because his intensely powerful ass can spin his tails fast enough to generate sufficient lift, but because his spinning tails evoke a helicopter's blades, and we accept the metaphor. Sonic can spin through robots not because his quills are actually sturdy enough and he can spin just that fast, but because when he's spinning he evokes a buzzsaw. The characters can do the things we see them do, not because they have the physical properties that would be required to perform them in real life, but because they are cartoons, exaggerated fictional characters, often operating on non-literal, symbolic/metaphorical levels.

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3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I would say it's almost entirely "joke". Or at least, that very little of it is meant to be realistic...which I'd also say for a lot of other things the characters do. Like, Tails tail-slapping robots shouldn't work, if taken seriously; he doesn't actually have such buff ass muscles that he can whip his fluffy appendages hard enough to split metal. It's just...an attack, therefore it does what needs to be done.

Basically I don't take Sonic very literally.

It's pretty trivial to have a character work out and get a bit stronger. That doesn't mean that they are meaningfully strong. And it's not like you could measure Amy getting stronger from working out.

It doesn't just have "toy-like aspects", it is literally a toy. Squeaky toy hammers are a thing. "Piko piko hammer" isn't even something Sonic Team came up with, that's literally just what they're called.

 

That's the joke, yes.

No I do apply the same thing to the other characters, but like I said above, I don't take these things literally. Amy can smash robots with her toy hammer, not because she has immense physical strength, but because of the joke of a squeaky hammer wielded by a young girl being effective. Tails can fly not because his intensely powerful ass can spin his tails fast enough to generate sufficient lift, but because his spinning tails evoke a helicopter's blades, and we accept the metaphor. Sonic can spin through robots not because his quills are actually sturdy enough and he can spin just that fast, but because when he's spinning he evokes a buzzsaw. The characters can do the things we see them do, not because they have the physical properties that would be required to perform them in real life, but because they are cartoons, exaggerated fictional characters, often operating on non-literal, symbolic/metaphorical levels.

Still, you’re ignoring those games where the characters can do other moves besides just their standard cartoon gags.  Amy’s arc in SB involved her boxercizing and lifting weights and becoming more athletic as a result.  It’s just one game, but no game afterwards (besides 06) outright contradicts that.  And it isn’t really fair to say Amy is helpless without her hammer because it’s all she usually uses, considering that rolling into a ball is all Sonic usually uses and nobody would say he’s helpless without it.  It’s fine to assume Amy isn’t noteworthily strong, but why you’d presume she’s necessarily weaker than other characters unless their major thing is they’re strong (like Knuckles), I don’t know.

16 minutes ago, Nathan said:

I think Amy’s is not so powerful without the hammer like in sonic boom we’re she loses it she can’t help fight the robots even in her first appearance in sonic cd she could not fend for herself when metal got her and in sonic adventure her mission are her just trying to escape the robot so I think Amy is useless without the hammer

Boom Amy is wildly inconsistent in physical abilities (also personality, but I digress).  Sometimes, she can fight fine without her hammer (or at least, can use other things in addition), and wields it like a ninja wields a sword.  Others, she can barely stay standing without her hammer, and even when using it, just hefts it clumsily over her shoulder as if it’s her first time ever using it.

But main series Amy got at least a bit stronger, given that in the Advance series and SH she was able to damage bosses without needing an environment to knock them into, and again, able to punch enemies in ShTH hard enough that they would go down eventually.

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Just now, Scritch the Cat said:

 And it isn’t really fair to say Amy is helpless without her hammer because it’s all she usually uses, considering that rolling into a ball is all Sonic usually uses and nobody would say he’s helpless without it.

I would certainly say he'd have trouble fighting if he couldn't.

Just now, Scritch the Cat said:

 It’s fine to assume Amy isn’t noteworthily strong, but why you’d presume she’s necessarily weaker than other characters unless their major thing is they’re strong (like Knuckles), I don’t know.

She's a 12 year old girl and the biggest point we have in her favor is that she boxercized for a bit in a fighting-based spinoff. I don't think I'm making a radical statement to suggest she's not as physically strong as the ninja or the spy/thief, without even getting into the actual power-type characters.

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30 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I would certainly say he'd have trouble fighting if he couldn't.

She's a 12 year old girl and the biggest point we have in her favor is that she boxercized for a bit in a fighting-based spinoff. I don't think I'm making a radical statement to suggest she's not as physically strong as the ninja or the spy/thief, without even getting into the actual power-type characters.

Sure, but not every character is a ninja, spy/thief, or power-type.

Admittedly, I think I like focusing on Amy’s power and combat abilities because I miss when such elements were more part of the Sonic series in general.  But I will point out that this is not necessarily relevant to how strong Amy is or isn’t without her hammer.  Strength doesn’t really exist in games until it does; as in, there are rules programmed in about how much a character can move an object and how heavy of an object that character can move at all.  Damage amount is just a cheap approximation.  But Amy’s hammer still is mechanically grounded in combat because it originated in a fighting game, and as a means of attacking in a fast-paced platformer, it’s shown to be much less convenient of an attack than balling up.  In fact, this series came to star a hedgehog over other characters BECAUSE balling up was a convenient way to attack while in motion.  Seeing as a hammer simply can’t be as convenient an attack as that, I think it HAS to be a stronger attack to compensate.  Of course, this is not necessarily relevant so long as enemies have no HP, but what can I say; I liked enemies with HP too.  I know I’m in the minority, though.

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Base off of Dark Chronicles Amy has high strength then comes Sonic Generations and Sonic Battle where she can fight without her hammer the only characters Amy can't handle is Sonic, Shadow, Silver and the Deadly 6. Amy would fight better if the story focus on her sometimes. 

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22 minutes ago, Fire-N-Space said:

Base off of Dark Chronicles Amy has high strength then comes Sonic Generations and Sonic Battle where she can fight without her hammer the only characters Amy can't handle is Sonic, Shadow, Silver and the Deadly 6. Amy would fight better if the story focus on her sometimes. 

When did Amy fight in SG?  I’m willing to concede she might be strong enough to launch Knuckles, but that isn’t fighting.  Again, strong doesn’t mean skilled at fighting; look at Big in his debut role.  Also, your game order is rather confused.

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35 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Sure, but not every character is a ninja, spy/thief, or power-type.

Yes but most of them still have reason to be more physically fit/strong than an average 12 year old girl. Sonic is an experienced adventurer defined by his particular superhuman athleticism. Shadow was created to be a living weapon. The Babylon Rogues are all fit enough to excel in extreme sports. Silver had to be strong enough to survive in the apocalypse.

And I mean I'm not saying she's some complete noodle-limed waif who'd faint at the slightest exertion, but this is a series mostly focused on superpowered teens going on adventures and she's just below the par that they set.

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But Amy’s hammer still is mechanically grounded in combat because it originated in a fighting game, and as a means of attacking in a fast-paced platformer, it’s shown to be much less convenient of an attack than balling up.  In fact, this series came to star a hedgehog over other characters BECAUSE balling up was a convenient way to attack while in motion.  Seeing as a hammer simply can’t be as convenient an attack as that, I think it HAS to be a stronger attack to compensate.

If we're talking game mechanics there's no reason her hammer has to be slow and awkward. A bunch of people have suggested having it work like the instashield, extending the range of a standard Sonic character spin attack. Or they could take the top-spin attack she got in SA and make it not completely garbage, more like Tails' from the same game.

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11 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Yes but most of them still have reason to be more physically fit/strong than an average 12 year old girl. Sonic is an experienced adventurer defined by his particular superhuman athleticism. Shadow was created to be a living weapon. The Babylon Rogues are all fit enough to excel in extreme sports. Silver had to be strong enough to survive in the apocalypse.

And I mean I'm not saying she's some complete noodle-limed waif who'd faint at the slightest exertion, but this is a series mostly focused on superpowered teens going on adventures and she's just below the par that they set.

If we're talking game mechanics there's no reason her hammer has to be slow and awkward. A bunch of people have suggested having it work like the instashield, extending the range of a standard Sonic character spin attack. Or they could take the top-spin attack she got in SA and make it not completely garbage, more like Tails' from the same game.

That’s possible, though the latter is not as viable if they stick to the Classic style of only using one button.

Edit: And I’d still want some games to incorporate strength stats as not every character can be as easily fudged into a Classic Sonic mold.  Omega, for example.

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9 hours ago, Kaotic Kanine said:

So, are we just gonna ignore how Amy unintentionally sent Knuckles flying into a tree and subsequently knocked out cold with a mere smack of her hand in the ending of Generations?

It was set up in anticipation that Knux won’t have Julie-Su in his life, instead it eill be Amy, and she knows the secret art of Treekwando. :D 

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By Sonic Advance 2, Amy learned to spindash. So she could at least feasibly go on a traditional 2D platforming adventure without her hammer and probably do alright for herself.

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Am I the only one noticing the irony that after specifically choosing for their games to star a hedgehog because they can roll into balls, they dropped such exceptionalism when adding a fair amount of other species and also made them able to roll into balls, and then, when giving a moveset to a character who actually is another hedgehog, they decided she couldn’t roll into a ball?  Like, nothing about Amy’s original appearance suggested she was strong, or even suggested much else, but rolling into balls is supposed to be a basic hedgehog trait.
 

Granted, Sonic characters aren’t limited to real-world species abilities, but that Amy would get a hammer as her preeminent style of combat, at a time when she didn’t have enough identity for it to relate to much of anything, instead of the self-evident hedgehog ability, is, in retrospect, really weird.  And instead of ever correcting that, Amy’s redesign combed down (if not removed) her quills so her being a hedgehog isn’t even obvious anymore.

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Its because she's, unironically, a girl. Amy was designed primarily as "female Sonic" with emphasis on "female" so that's likely why her design doesn't resemble Sonic's unlike say, Shadow.

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On 9/4/2020 at 5:25 AM, Kuzu said:

Its because she's, unironically, a girl. Amy was designed primarily as "female Sonic" with emphasis on "female" so that's likely why her design doesn't resemble Sonic's unlike say, Shadow.

Shouldn’t the fact that she’s pink and wears dresses make that clear enough?

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34 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Shouldn’t the fact that she’s pink and wears dresses make that clear enough?

Japan is not a country of subtlety

 

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Hmm, recently I made topic "thin line between Sonic-world and Sonic-game". I focused on psychical objects, like rings and springs, but looking back this topic should also touch characters and how they are viewed.

1) Can Amy Spin Dash, run as fast as Sonic, let alone turn invisible?
My first instinct is to dismiss gameplay if cutscenes don't support it, but the more I think about it, it's madness. Maybe next I'll claim Knuckles can't glide? Or Espio turn invisible? Before SA1 there was no cutscnes, was whole franchises a Schrodinger cat?
I'm sorry, but no. If character can do it in the canonical game, there must be at least a small reflection in reality. So I think Amy can run somewhat fast and do Spin Dash, but she not good at it.
Invisibility is trickier, since it's supported by only one game and it's 06 by all things. I have one suggestion: Amy doesn't disappaear. She's simply starts sneaking around, very quietly. Her invisibility is just a visual flare, no different from life bar above enemies.

2) Is Amy strong enough to beat all Advance games, or lead Team Rose against Egg Emperor in Sonic Heroes?
Here I have opposite view. Take Street Fighter. If combatant can do something during fight, he can do it canonically. But just because you can play as Dan Hibiki and beat M Bison, it doesn't mean Dan is officially capable of doing so.
In games with multiple playable characters going though basically the same journey, it's save to assume only few of them actually accomplished that.

So in Advance 1,2,3 only Sonic actually beat Eggman, but rest most likely helped to some degree.

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10 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

 

2) Is Amy strong enough to beat all Advance games, or lead Team Rose against Egg Emperor in Sonic Heroes?
Here I have opposite view. Take Street Fighter. If combatant can do something during fight, he can do it canonically. But just because you can play as Dan Hibiki and beat M Bison, it doesn't mean Dan is officially capable of doing so.
In games with multiple playable characters going though basically the same journey, it's save to assume only few of them actually accomplished that.

So in Advance 1,2,3 only Sonic actually beat Eggman, but rest most likely helped to some degree.

All the teams in heroes definitely fought Eggman's robots, if not at the same time. Metal Sonic scanning them only makes sense if they did.

And the ending where they all meet up at the same place to the point that Team Sonic and Team Rose have functionally the same ending only works in that context too. 

Advance is different in that regard because those aren't seprate stories. They all travel as a unit.  Like, we don't know how much Tails helped in the classic games either, but I assume he did something.

 

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Good points. Although Metal didn't scan Amy or Chaotix, he just wanted to delay them long enough. It is possible that he only though Sonic and Shadow. Maybe he had some Sonic data from previous fights, so he focused on Shadow. Hence the difficulty setting of each team.

Admittedly it's weird. Cutscenes from Team Sonic and Rose imply that their finales happened seconds from each other. So what, where they 2 oe even 4 Egg Emperors prepared for each fight? Or maybe after winning the boss battle Sonic was busy with IDK, destroying rest of Egg Fleet and didn't noticed that Metal quiickly patched up his mech and is now fighting Amy?

...I think this is the moment when we should stop overthinking details.

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9 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

...I think this is the moment when we should stop overthinking details.

Yeah; especially since SEGA basically ignores them.

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My head canon? She has super strength like shadow

In reality? Not at all or some other sexist crap that despite moving away from it still plagues a lot of the series

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Has Amy been given an offical backstory? Beyond Super Stalker and Hammer gal? I ask in earnest. 

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2 hours ago, Titan Mecha Sonic said:

Has Amy been given an offical backstory? Beyond Super Stalker and Hammer gal? I ask in earnest. 

CD was essentially her backstory. 

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6 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

CD was essentially her backstory. 

I just remeber he chasing Sonic with hearts and Mecha Sonic carrying her off. Did I miss anything? 

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4 minutes ago, Titan Mecha Sonic said:

I just remeber he chasing Sonic with hearts and Mecha Sonic carrying her off. Did I miss anything? 

Not much, just that she predicted that she'd meet Sonic on Little Planet, which is why she was there. That was the origin of it all.

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To be fair, it’s not like most Sonic characters have much more backstory, and plenty have less.  The problem with Amy’s backstory is it’s tied to a motivation many dislike.

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