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Why Shadow didn't protect Maria?


MetalSkulkBane
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1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

Actually it can be a plot hole, if in this case there is no narrative justification for it happening and the thing to prevent it happening is either something the character normally does or doesn't do and them not doing that is significant in that moment. The character not doing something they normally do with no explanation so conveniently a plot point can happen. Espically in a situation that would call for it, is infact a narrative inconsistency. Whether it matters or not is up the viewer.

If I may use an example, spiderman. Movie spiderman. So remember when peter lets the robber get away and that same robber gets uncle ben ken killed. Peter not stopping that robber, and the uncle been dying and the legendary line " great power comes with great responsibility ". He then learns , you can't just let injustice slide because it benefits you, because one day it may happen to you. If you can help people, help.

Simple right. Peter didn't do something he would normally do, in his hubris, ben dies.

So the question is , why didn't shadow run? You keep saying its a " mistake" but why would he make that mistake. There is literally no reason for him to make that mistake. He has no motivation to not run right now. He wants maria to live , he wishes to escape the gun wielding soldiers on his tail.  The reason he's not running is because maria needs to die for the story to continue. There is no in universe reason. The script is on the ground and we can see it. This is a plot hole.

Shadow is a character who in and out of universe is designed to go fast and kick ass. And he magically decided to not do it, unprompted, for no reason when his friend conveniently needed to die for the plot.

Every explanation you and I could provide as to why he didn't. Is head canon, there is and never was explanation. That, is a plot hole. It just happened, because the story needed it to. I can fix it right now if you want, watch

Maria because of her medical condition is actually rather fragile, and running really fast might hurt or kill her which is what shadow didn't want at the moment.

Bam there you go. But that didn't happen, nothing happened, there is no reason. There is a gap in the story a inconsistency where the character designed to go fast, just decided he didn't want to. There is no reason for this, this is a plot hole.

Doesn't matter, the story is still fun and engaging. And just because a story has 1 or 2 or however many plot holes doesn't mean ya can't enjoy it or even that its not good. I'm not into the " cinima sins " style of commentary where every plot hole is some giant flaw that needed to be pointed out. This didn't really. I have actually thought about it untill OP brought it up. But while we are here, it is a plot hole.  But its one that just never mattered to anyone's enjoyment.

Definition of a plothole

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In fiction, a plot hole, plothole or plot error is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot. Such inconsistencies include things as illogical, unlikely or impossible events, and statements or events that contradict earlier events in the storyline

 

The entire point of Maria dying is to establish the tragedy of Shadow's character, and what motivates him to act  from that point onward; not being able to save her is literally functional for the narrative to actually work. Shadow having all of these magical DBZ abilities is irrelevant, because if he was able to save Maria there wouldn't be a story. 

 

This is like saying Spider-Man not being able to save Gwen Stacy is a plothole because of his powers, and the logic you're using is just as faulty. 

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CrownSlayer’s Shadow

Really goes to show that a lot people have a very poor grasp of storytelling when we’re calling character flaws and mistakes plothole.

Character’s like Shadow can’t be perfect, Ultimate Lifeform or not, else they’re unrelatable.

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8 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Definition of a plothole

 

The entire point of Maria dying is to establish the tragedy of Shadow's character, and what motivates him to act  from that point onward; not being able to save her is literally functional for the narrative to actually work. Shadow having all of these magical DBZ abilities is irrelevant, because if he was able to save Maria there wouldn't be a story. 

You realize im not saying the plot point is the plot hole. But rather how its executed.

No one made the argument you are arguing. NO ONE. Not me, not the OP. The heck there isn't even an argument. Its just mentioned its kinda weird he didn't do thing there and he could have. That is a plot hole. There's no reason he shouldn't have done that. No one is arguing the moment shouldn't happened, its how it has been set up is bad. Heck it isn't even bad. I mention multiple times , you can quote me that it doesn't actually matter because what it does for shadow's story and for his character is good and speas to the strength of his character.

Its in the post you quoted...

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Doesn't matter, the story is still fun and engaging. And just because a story has 1 or 2 or however many plot holes doesn't mean ya can't enjoy it or even that its not good.

BRUH

The point of that post is, yes without the incident there is no story. They don't really justify it well, he just doesn't  do what he can do because plot needs to happen. Rather than an more well thought out set up, that makes him unable to do that. That sort of spurs to become stronger.

5 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Really goes to show that a lot people have a very poor grasp of storytelling when we’re calling character flaws and mistakes plothole.

It shows some of ya'll don't read.

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Character’s like Shadow can’t be perfect, Ultimate Lifeform or not, else they’re unrelatable.

NO ONE SAID THIS

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This is like saying Spider-Man not being able to save Gwen Stacy is a plothole because of his powers, and the logic you're using is just as faulty. 

Stop,
Also this example is used incorrectly Gwen stacy's thing is that he was not able to save her. He was trying to save her and it wasn't enough and she dies. That he was literally being spread too thin represented by his webbing and it snaps and she dies. It was a narrative representation that he can't do everything.  If that happened in sa2 or in shadow's game this wouldn't have come up. Shadow was in a situation where he was not spread thin, he could have ran teleported...anything. Just didn't.  Because the story needed to happen. And these are abilities he had at the time. That's a plot hole.

Ian flynn talks about this on his podcast about silver. How he threw in lines because he needed to justify why silver doesn't just teleport everywhere or else it wouldn't make sense. The writer, of the comic about this series literally said the thing i'm saying about another character 3 weeks ago. There needed to be a justification in the plot as to why the character who could quickly solve a problem theoretically couldn't. That guy people want to write the games. That guy.

You all have created an entire argument about shadow needing to be perfect and i'm saying " they could have threw in some text explaining that scene better"

Like what is even being said here?

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Why do the writers need to "tell" you why a character in the past acts differently than he does in the present?

Shadow running away from the soldiers with Maria doesn't need some explanation that can't be assumed, you aren't filling in some huge gap in the plot by assuming Shadow was told by either Gerald or Maria to not fight the soldiers (considering Maria's last words anyway) or he chose not to because he wasn't the revenge filled dark Sonic he ended up being.

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In shadows game she gets on to you if you hurt the soldiers. so most likely it was the classic she said dont hurt them confused what to do.  seems most his early life was rather peaceful on the station.

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8 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Its just mentioned its kinda weird he didn't do thing there and he could have. That is a plot hole.

Something being "kinda weird" isn't what it takes for something to be a plot hole, especially when you don't actually have any consensus for the thing in question being "kinda weird" at all. Just because Ian made it a point to put a power limiter on Silver for the same type of people who go on the internet and apply the "Superman has so many stated powers he could solve all the crime on the planet by himself" argument to every character interaction in the DCU doesn't mean it's a plot hole if someone doesn't explicitly explain why Superman doesn't show up to solve all of Wonder Woman or Batman's problems.

 

8 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

NO ONE SAID THIS

I think the point behind so many people hammering that is that it's understood by now to be what you're actually angling for whenever threads like this come up.

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Honestly, it seems the problem here is that people assume that any plot holes/ lore mistakes are inherently a negative thing and not just things people nitpick.

Yeah, it's weird the character who runs fast didn't run fast when Maria was getting fired at. 

Does it change anything about the story or people's enjoyment of it? Not really. It's just one of those things people don't understand.

In Yugioh 5Ds, Jean was winning his duel against Yusei, and could have won completely if he had just ended his turn. He didn't do that and ended up losing because of it. It's a weird turn for the character to take, but us as an audience realize that entertainment is more important than making sure everything makes sense for people who nitpick stories.

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CrownSlayer’s Shadow
16 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

It shows some of ya'll don't read.

Oh, trust me. I’ve read this topic. Doesn’t take long to call out incorrections when people make them these days.

And that’s putting things lightly.

16 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

NO ONE SAID THIS

Which is why it wasn’t directed at anyone, Mr. “Ya’ll don’t read.”

So you’re making yourself out as the hit dog here. :rolleyes: 

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On 9/11/2020 at 12:23 PM, Tornado said:

Something being "kinda weird" isn't what it takes for something to be a plot hole, especially when you don't actually have any consensus for the thing in question being "kinda weird" at all. Just because Ian made it a point to put a power limiter on Silver for the same type of people who go on the internet and apply the "Superman has so many stated powers he could solve all the crime on the planet by himself" argument to every character interaction in the DCU doesn't mean it's a plot hole if someone doesn't explicitly explain why Superman doesn't show up to solve all of Wonder Woman or Batman's problems.

That's not comparable? The situation at hand is a tragedy that could have been prevented by a character doing a thing he normally does. I have the same issue with silver in forces as well. The thing you comparable it to, is actually easily explainable and has become more explainable as time goes on. Super man is busy and despite what Luther claims,  isn't actually an omnipotent God who can't be stopped

 

Super man can't be everywhere at once. He can't do everything. He gets tired has weaknesses. Has a family , needs to rest. Or is doing other shit.

Shadow had nothing else to do. But run. Silver theoretically could have solved but that would have ruined the narrative he wanted to tell. So he did something that more or less works wth canon. Also your example is not only wrong its also disingenuous. Because how ian says it himself isn't to deter those "Superman" but primarily just wanting to tell a story that works. Ian flynn is a detail oriented guy, sometimes too much. While he's more than willing to leave it up to the viewer he likes in his writing if he can with sonic to come up with a bunch of crazy specific stuff. Sometimes its a flaw, sometimes its a benefit,  but it's how he writes.

That's an inconsistency in the plot and until you or anyone else can actually why didn't he run. Then that's what it is.

Doesn't matter in the end. Ultimately the story was told,  it was very effective and we collectively just ignored that.

But like yeah

On 9/11/2020 at 12:23 PM, Tornado said:

I think the point behind so many people hammering that is that it's understood by now to be what you're actually angling for whenever threads like this come up.

I'm angling for the thing that I wrote. Talk about what I wrote. Or you can argue with a litteral strawman take your pick.

It really hurts your suggestion when I say "the story is still cool this seems kinda funky". There is no angling. I like sa2 and its dumb.

That's the statement. Talk about that.

On 9/11/2020 at 3:28 PM, thumbs13 said:

Honestly, it seems the problem here is that people assume that any plot holes/ lore mistakes are inherently a negative thing and not just things people nitpick.

Yeah, it's weird the character who runs fast didn't run fast when Maria was getting fired at. 

Does it change anything about the story or people's enjoyment of it? Not really. It's just one of those things people don't understand.

In Yugioh 5Ds, Jean was winning his duel against Yusei, and could have won completely if he had just ended his turn. He didn't do that and ended up losing because of it. It's a weird turn for the character to take, but us as an audience realize that entertainment is more important than making sure everything makes sense for people who nitpick stories.

This is litterally the thing I have been saying and is basically my point. Thanks for getting it.

Plot holes aren't inherently bad. Sometimes the story is more important,  than its parts. Sometimes its fun to look at those holes. That's it.

 

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CrownSlayer’s Shadow

 

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This is litterally the thing I have been saying and is basically my point. Thanks for getting it.

Plot holes aren't inherently bad. Sometimes the story is more important,  than its parts. Sometimes its fun to look at those holes. That's it.

 

Except the literal definition of a plothole implies it’s a bad thing.

Shadow failing to save Maria from dying during the ARK Raid isn’t a plothole, that’s a personal failure on part of the character’s own action or inaction that develops Shadow into the character he is during the course of SA2’s story. Yes he could’ve done all sorts of things to save her, but he didn’t because he simply wasn’t given that opportunity, and that made him vengeful enough to wipe out all life on the planet. This is no different from Spider-Man failing to save Gwen Stacy, or why Superman isn’t able to solve all of Batman or Wonder Woman’s problems.

A plothole is an outright error in the story that literally makes no sense in the narrative or series’s logic that had been established—basically, it’s the story somehow telling you that 2+2=Fish out of no where and telling us to accept it for no reason when it had already established 2+2=4. An example of this being Blaze the Cat somehow being on the future version of Earth/Sonic’s World/whatever during the course of Sonic 06 with no explanation when it was already established that she exists in the Sol dimension completely separate from that—a subject which I wouldn’t doubt still creates debates to this day on the net.

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52 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Plot holes aren't inherently bad.

A plot hole is something that makes the story logically impossible.


It is inherently a bad thing.

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Just now, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

 

Except the literal definition of a plothole implies it’s a bad thing.

 

5 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

A plot hole is something that makes the story logically impossible.


It is inherently a bad thing.

Sometimes "mistakes and errors" and character to a piece. This one adds heart to shadows story.

That's it. I like sonic partially because it isnt perfect.

Sometimes mistakes work out and this one did. Did you know the combo's in street fighter were made on accident? Now that's a just a thing in all fighting games. Speaking of capcom accidents,  dmc was partially inspired by an onimusha glitch that let you juggle enemies. Two whole genres whos bnb's were made because of a mistake.

Sometimes things not being perfect makes them unique and unique is sometimes better. And I would say shadow is generally one of the more unique sonic characters. His origin isn't perfect but it doesn't matter. Its fun and engaging.

sometimes our perceptions of what's good and bad in stories are mired in technicalities. Sometimes whats more important is what's good. So i stand by my statements. Plot holes aren't inherently bad they just...are. Whether you care about them generally relies on narratively quality. But when you are having good fun in a thread, they are fun to point out.

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39 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Characters are allowed to make mistakes, as they often have to in order for any story to even happen.

Why did the mistake happen. Why did the character who was known for doing the one thing , didn't in that station do the one thing? There was no reason for it, it happened because plot. That doesn't make not a plot hole, we just collectively got a good thing out of it.

Again you keep saying " he made a mistake" but until you can justify it , its plot hole. And you can't , there is no in lore justification. But we got something cool out of it. That's it.

There is no impetus for the mistake. Characters are not living beings. They are written. So they don't just make mistakes, someone has to write that, there needs to be a reason for it. There is no reason besides plot happen, that's a technically bad plot point. Is what it is.
 

And quick edit here. You are gonna tell me , the character. Who is has rocket boots. Who literally was designed to go fast, who has the powers to negate space time. In a situation where there would have been no harm in doing so, he could just do it. And was running from people with lethal weaponry. Didn't because it a " mistake" . He didn't do the thing he does 100 percent of the time because it was a mistake. He didn't do the thing that he does so much, that the series retconned that shadow could do it without even needing the cataylist. That thing. He didn't do it, because it was " just a mistake" you can't justify. You can't even say. That was just a " mistake

Heck you can't even say it was a mistake. You don't even know what shadow's motivations. Maybe he secretly wanted maria dead. Maybe she ate his pudding that day and he just had it. Maybe she's gross and farts, maybe she was secretly a demon and she needed to be put down. We don't know. We have no information for why shadow didn't do that. Yet you are so ready to claim it was a " mistake " on his part. That instead of the occam's razor answer of " oh the author didn't think or care, because you can fill in the blanks and it isn't that important ".  Remember when the current head of the studio who makes these games said and I quote " I dunno the moon turned around" after eggman pissed on the moon. But somehow this very obvious lapse in thought in some meticulously planned story point?

These characters are written. They aren't real, they don't think. They are thought for. And in that writing bringing them to life we perceive them to think.  And in that instance, the writer wasn't thinking about it because it wasn't important. Because the story was more important. Doesn't mean it wasn't a lapse in thought, just one that worked out.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Wraith said:

It was clear Shadow and Maria were forced into a dead end. It doesn't matter if they get there a little faster. 

Eh I mean shadow could have ran her down the hall way hid her. Ran back and beat them up.

Again it dont matter. Like the story being told is more important. But like there were ways to deal with that.

Heck you could have him run down and fight them off and hes overwhelmed. Hes kinda green and his not used to his body he had only been alive iirc for a week when the arc incident happened. So he quickly burned out. Ran back she set up the pod gets shot. Boom. He messed up, he over estimated his strength vowes to get stronger or get revenge. Heck you can actually connect it further by suggesting this why shadow has inhibitior rings. Gerald worked on shadow more whilst imprisoned by gun. Maybe he thinks of it because shadow burning out is why his grand daughter died. Sort of training wheels.

Again do these details matter, no. I think its fun to elaborate on things. But ultimately no. The story was told and its effective. But you could have told a more structured solid story. And its fun to point out the odd bits and ends

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3 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Eh I mean shadow could have ran her down the hall way hid her. Ran back and beat them up.

Again it dont matter. Like the story being told is more important. But like there were ways to deal with that.

Heck you could have him run down and fight them off and hes overwhelmed. Hes kinda green and his not used to his body he had only been alive iirc for a week when the arc incident happened. So he quickly burned out. Ran back she set up the pod gets shot. Boom. He messed up, he over estimated his strength vowes to get stronger or get revenge. Heck you can actually connect it further by suggesting this why shadow has inhibitior rings. Gerald worked on shadow more whilst imprisoned by gun. Maybe he thinks of it because shadow burning out is why his grand daughter died. Sort of training wheels.

Again do these details matter, no. I think its fun to elaborate on things. But ultimately no. The story was told and its effective. But you could have told a more structured solid story. And its fun to point out the odd bits and ends

This wouldn't have added anything for me personally. Making an air tight story is nice and all but focusing so hard on the specifics of Shadow's powers over everything feels like missing the forest for the trees. 

It's really not that fucking hard to believe he couldn't stop a bullet. He's not even really bulletproof. 

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24 minutes ago, Wraith said:

This wouldn't have added anything for me personally. Making an air tight story is nice and all but focusing so hard on the specifics of Shadow's powers over everything feels like missing the forest for the trees. 

That's fair. And I agree, mostly . I think there are some issues with shadow's origin but its less related to that moment and more about like how long shadow was alive before he got put in the pod. And under reboot circumstances I would like to work more of the alien stuff. But I agree. I'm just pointing out a fun detail, in a thread about said detail.

24 minutes ago, Wraith said:



It's really not that fucking hard to believe he couldn't stop a bullet. He's not even really bulletproof. 

He is. He's literally bullet proof. He literally blocks bullets with his body in the shadow the hedgehog intro and has extremely high durability. He is quite literally bullet proof. He can literally survive reentry. Though with some memory loss.

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2 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 

He is. He's literally bullet proof. He literally blocks bullets with his body in the shadow the hedgehog intro and has extremely high durability. He is quite literally bullet proof. He can literally survive reentry. Though with some memory loss.

He can get killed by gunfire in that game. He can get killed by gunfire in SA2. He can get killed by gunfire in Sonic 06. The only circumstance where he can't get killed by gunfire is when he's in his chaos blast mode, which he was in during that moment in the shadow intro.

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15 minutes ago, Wraith said:

He can get killed by gunfire in that game. He can get killed by gunfire in SA2. He can get killed by gunfire in Sonic 06. The only circumstance where he can't get killed by gunfire is when he's in his chaos blast mode, which he was in during that moment in the shadow intro.

Games need mechanics. And considering he survives reentry later those mechanics probably aren't really reflective of what they feel the character is capable of and the games need enemies. Sonic and Shadow can run MUCH faster in the cutscene and story material than they can in games and do much more. And use their abilities more, the lapse between cut scene in game is kind of large. Again he literally hits the earth in a force far stronger than any bullet in existence and all he got was knocked out and amnesia.

Other Edit: It should also be noted no one telling the story even the people making those cutscenes are using their in game limitations as a 1 to 1 representation of what they can and cant do. These characters have set powers, they are interpenetrating them as such.

But you know what, i'll give you that. But you have walked yourself into another corner, lets say the games are 1 to 1 representation of everything that character can do. The games are a 1 to 1 canon.

You can run faster than bullets in all those games. Everyone in you play as can run, fly glyde, whatever faster than bullets. The mechanics specifically require you to outrun bullets.
Also edit: wait a minute can in the later boost games the playable character just boost through bullets. Like things are firing bullets at you and you just boost through them. So not only can he run faster than bullets , the running even in your example IIRC would make him stronger against bullets

Maybe he couldn't block the bullets in your example. He can out run them. But he decided to walk...for some reason.

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CrownSlayer’s Shadow
2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

 

Sometimes "mistakes and errors" and character to a piece. This one adds heart to shadows story.

They don’t, and the reason why is because they’re not the same thing.

Mistakes and errors on part of the narrative (I.e. plotholes) causes problems with the overall story being told, and that is inherently a bad thing. That doesn’t equate to characters making mistakes within said narrative.

Characters who make mistakes do so because they’re flawed—that’s perfectly fine as perfect characters aren’t relatable. But plot holes in general are things that should be avoided whenever possible, and literally any decent writer worth their prose will tell you that.

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2 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Games need mechanics. And considering he survives reentry later those mechanics probably aren't really reflective of what they feel the character is capable of and the games need enemies. Sonic and Shadow can run MUCH faster in the cutscene and story material than they can in games and do much more. And use their abilities more, the lapse between cut scene in game is kind of large. Again he literally hits the earth in a force far stronger than any bullet in existence and all he got was knocked out and amnesia.
 

Sonic has also survived reentry and is demonstrably not bulletproof. 
 

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But you know what, i'll give you that. But you have walked yourself into another corner, lets say the games are 1 to 1 representation of everything that character can do. The games are a 1 to 1 canon.

You can run faster than bullets in all those games. Everyone in you play as can run, fly glyde, whatever faster than bullets.

Maybe he couldn't block the bullets in your example. He can out run them. But he decided to walk...for some reason.

In the cutscene he'srunning away, leading Maria by the hand. He was lead into a dead end where the confrontation/capsule room happens. There's nowhere for him to go. 

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9 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

They don’t.

This is an opinion.
I disagree. Some of my favorite stories. Like say this game, have mistakes in them. Or just lapses in story telling.

 

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Mistakes and errors on part of the narrative causes problems with the overall story being told. That doesn’t equate to characters making mistakes within said narrative.

 

Characters aren't real. People write them. Unless you can give me a canonical reason as to why the character who can run fast didn't in the situation where it would have behooved them to had no other distractions and could have just done so , didn't. That's a plot hole. You yelling about mistakes don't make it a mistake. You have to explain that. The onus is on you now. So unless you have an explanation, I don't know what to tell you.

Shadow didn't " make a mistake" he's not real, its on the part of the person telling the story to tell you he did and convince its believable. They didn't. They didn't say anything. It just sort of happens for plot reasons. And doesn't really make sense.

7 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Sonic has also survived reentry and is demonstrably not bulletproof. 

Cool, but shadow has been shown to be in cutscene. So either the story the cutscenes were telling matters and these things combine to communicate that he's highly durable. Something that he is.


Or they don't matter and

Look below

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In the cutscene he'srunning away, leading Maria by the hand. He was lead into a dead end where the confrontation/capsule room happens. There's nowhere for him to go. 

By solders he could have outran ran back and punched whilist dodging bullets. Heck if we are still using your idea that the game play is actually 1 to 1 with canon. The soldiers in shadows game move incredible slow...so...yeah

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2 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Cool, but shadow has been shown to be in cutscene. So either the story the cutscenes were telling matters and these things combine to communicate that he's highly durable. Something that he is.

He is shown to be bulletproof a circumstance where he would be bulletproof during gameplay. The cutscenes and the game actually match. 

2 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 

By solders he could have outran ran back and punched whilist dodging bullets. Heck if we are still using your idea that the game play is actually 1 to 1 with canon. The soldiers in shadows game move incredible slow...so...yeah

You're suggesting he leave Maria alone while the arc is swarming with military who have apparently been told to shoot to kill. Shadow made the call to stay by her instead, which is a sensible one given the circumstances. 

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CrownSlayer’s Shadow
36 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

This is an opinion.

No, it’s an outright fact.

What you’re talking about with Shadow isn’t a plothole. It’s a personal failure that drives his character forward.

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I disagree. Some of my favorite stories. Like say this game, have mistakes in them. Or just lapses in story telling.

Yeah, so do a number of my favorites. That doesn’t make the errors in plots forgivable.

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Characters aren't real. People write them. Unless you can give me a canonical reason as to why the character who can run fast didn't in the situation where it would have behooved them to had no other distractions and could have just done so , didn't. That's a plot hole. You yelling about mistakes don't make it a mistake. You have to explain that. The onus is on you now. So unless you have an explanation, I don't know what to tell you.

I got a better idea. How about you pick up this book (or literally any book on storytelling—this is just a fraction of my personal library on the subject), read it thoroughly all the way through, and actually learn what it means to actually write characters and make a story, because it’s already obvious you have no idea how this stuff works if this is your rebuttal.

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