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MetalSkulkBane

Why Shadow didn't protect Maria?

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22 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Yeah, so do a number of my favorites. That doesn’t make the errors in plots forgivable.

 

22 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

I got a better idea. How about you pick up this book (or literally any book on storytelling), read it thoroughly all the way through, and actually learn what it means to actually write characters and make a story, because it’s already obvious you have no idea how this stuff works if this is your rebuttal.

I'm done.

You all have fun.  I have no interest in arguing the subjective nature of who finds what value in art. I don't.

 

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4 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 

I'm done.

You all have fun.  I have no interest in arguing the subjective nature of who finds what value in art. I don't.

 

You’re literally arguing over what is and isn’t a plothole after it was already spelled out for you—there is nothing subjective about that.

But you do you.

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2 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

You’re literally arguing over what is and isn’t a plothole after it was already spelled out for you—there is nothing subjective about that.

But you do you.

...You... You can argue whether something qualifies as something...

... You know art is subjective right? You know these are terms and define whether it applies.
 

...Its important to me you know this. Please say yes.

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14 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

...You... You can argue whether something qualifies as something...

... You know art is subjective right?

A plothole isn’t subjective.

Stick to the subject...

 

Quote

“You know these are terms and define whether it applies.

...Its important to me you know this. Please say yes. 
 

These terms actually have strict definitions, and don’t mean whatever you want them to mean based on how you or I feel about them. So no.

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1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

The entire nature of this discussion is subjective.

Not really. And I’d advise you to look up what the word subjective means because Shadow failing to save Maria is anything but.

EDIT: and if you spent less time trying to be right for the sake of being right and more on actually learning these things you’d understand how to respond to this better.

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41 minutes ago, peliukun said:

You not seeing it as a plothole while others do is the very definition of a subjective opinion because this is your view verses theirs.

Except, again, it’s not a plothole.

Kuzu already gave the definition of what a plothole is, and a character failing to act on something and suffering consequences from that is, by definition, not a plothole. And there is nothing subjective about it regardless of anyone’s opinion on the matter—that Shadow logically could’ve saved Maria doesn’t make it a plothole anymore than the fact that he didn’t save her, because that’s literally not how that works no matter how you go about it.

Like this isn’t rocket science. If put another way, a plothole is the mistake of the writer, not the character—and no, twisting that to mean the writer intentionally made the character make a mistake to move the story along doesn’t make it a plothole either.

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22 minutes ago, peliukun said:

no one's sayin you aren't allowed to like that he failed to save maria. but logically it could've happened and it didn't. You can LIKE that it didn't becuz he ain't perfect, but that doesn't invalidate the reasoning of what could've and probably should've happened in the case of the scenario.

 

 

You can't frame your perspective on this as objective while also calling for subjectivity. What 'should have happened' pairs with language like 'plothole' and 'logic' to imply that there was a right way this scenario should have gone down. You guys were the ones implying your bullshit theory crafting was indisputable while using language like "its fine if you like your flawed plot" to dissuade anyone who thought the logic in the narrative was completely fine. 

If either of you actually believed in subjectivity, you would have read the room and a walk a long time ago. Stop wasting everyone's time with this shit. 

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43 minutes ago, Wraith said:



If either of you actually believed in subjectivity, you would have read the room and a walk a long time ago. Stop wasting everyone's time with this shit. 

So if you don't agree with you all , don't discuss anything on the forum. Cool beans. Subjectivity isn't apathy, it means you think a thing.

 

 

43 minutes ago, Wraith said:

 You guys were the ones implying your bullshit theory crafting was indisputable

No one implied anything. I argued it was that I was correct. Which doesn't mean its indisputable, and is a lot louder than implying.

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Subjectivity literally means your words are not based on objective fact that can be proven with logic and reasoning, but personal feelings and opinions.

That is neither right or wrong; what's getting people annoyed is that you keep trying to spin your subjective opinion as an objective fact, and you don't even realize it, even as people are pointing it out to you.

I'll be completely blunt and say that you don't know how to differentiate facts from opinions and then you ragequit when, once again, people don't agree with your SUBJECTIVE OPINION.

 

If you actually understood half of the shit you were saying, you wouldn't be trying so hard to spin it trying to make it seem we don't know what we're talking about. Anyone with any basic level of grammar can understand this, so why can't you?

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56 minutes ago, peliukun said:

and peeps wonder why this forum has it so hard to attract new peepz

laterz

Don't let the door hit you on the way out. 

52 minutes ago, Pinkolol16 said:

He wasn't trying to frame it as objective ffs. It's literally his opinion versus yours.

Yours happens to be the majority as you arrogantly shove everyone who doesn't agree with you out.

As has happened multiple times in these threads over and over again.

Oh spare me this shit; "Oh you're just part of the majority and putting us good folk down" You don't know how many times I've pissed people off on this site, I don't care about what the majority thinks. And I really don't need to take this from someone who hasn't been on this site for half of a decade and tries to play this holier than thou attitude on me. 

 

You want people to take your words seriously, then make a good argument; if you make a bad argument, you're going to get called out on it. That's how conversations and discussions work. If you think that makes us "arrogant" then go find an echo chamber where everyone agrees with you.

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Two things.

1. Pinkolol16 is a sockpuppet for peliukun. Both accounts have been banned.

2.

6 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

I'm done.

You all have fun.  I have no interest in arguing the subjective nature of who finds what value in art. I don't.

5 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

...No

No I retract my statement. I am done. I do not know how to respond to this

4 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

So if you don't agree with you all , don't discuss anything on the forum. Cool beans. Subjectivity isn't apathy, it means you think a thing.

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

nah

Fuck off with this nonsense. Throughout this topic you have hid behind a veil of subjectivity in order to shield any and all criticism, which doesn't make any fucking sense considering your gaslighting about people not being able to accept flaws in their favorite work in an effort to paint your arguments as objective, which didn't go unnoticed and was called out.  Time and time again you've gotten away with stonewalling conversations in this exact manner, flipping out and throwing tantrums when others don't bend their ass to your faulty logic. You've been reprimanded by Tornado and Zaysho in the past regarding your claiming that discussion isn't allowed at all and told to knock that shit off, and here you are still doing it. Seeing as how you seem explicitly disinterested in conversations, I don't think a message board setting is suited to your character.

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10 hours ago, StaticMania said:

A plot hole is something that makes the story logically impossible.


It is inherently a bad thing.

I'm pretty sure a plot hole is just an inconsistency with what we've seen. They can make for a bad story if done in excess, but they're not bad.
No storytelling tool is ever inherently bad. If we have to ignore a one off comment in Monsters Inc. so Sully and Mike can meet in college in a prequel movie, we're all better off for it. In the same fashion, we can ignore that shadow totally could have taken those guys and be sad over Maria. 

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He was effectively a baby. And didn't Shadow's game and Sonic X before it show that she was shot in the back?

 

Unless of course, that exact flashback never actually happened.

.

On 9/10/2020 at 11:15 PM, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Really goes to show that a lot people have a very poor grasp of storytelling when we’re calling character flaws and mistakes plothole.

Character’s like Shadow can’t be perfect, Ultimate Lifeform or not, else they’re unrelatable.

To be fair man, I don't think any of us can relate to getting jettisoned from a space station, moving around on hover boots, and then falling from orbit again because our silver power wore off while fighting our sibling with a cannon shoved up their ass.

11 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

. An example of this being Blaze the Cat somehow being on the future version of Earth/Sonic’s World/whatever during the course of Sonic 06 with no explanation when it was already established that she exists in the Sol dimension completely separate from that—a subject which I wouldn’t doubt still creates debates to this day on the net.

Even though subsequent games and eventually the director himself clarified it as a one off unexplained circumstance.

9 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

 

He is. He's literally bullet proof. He literally blocks bullets with his body in the shadow the hedgehog intro and has extremely high durability. He is quite literally bullet proof. He can literally survive reentry. Though with some memory loss.

I had to double check to figure out what you meant, but he was indeed using Chaos Blast in that scene.

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On 9/10/2020 at 6:22 AM, Shadowlax said:

.

Theres also a theory that the games imply that the entire memory was fabricated by gerald to give him a conscious.

I was just thinking of that 

On 9/10/2020 at 6:22 AM, Shadowlax said:

And Maria was never real. But shadow's game contradicts this. My own head canon too since he fights in his flash back.

In actuality a plot hole that exists for dramatic tension and character motivation. That will likely never be explained. And in future retellings like say a future film or a reboot require large changes in his backstory to work

Also, SA2's manual and the casualty records.

On 9/10/2020 at 10:28 AM, MetalSkulkBane said:

Yes, I said that in very first post, I'm surprised it took 8 posts for someone to acknowledge this.

Even if Shadow was absolute pacifist who never held a gun and cringed when someone swears, he should still be able to run fast.

Or maybe he was that young that even concepts like "ran fast" or "carry in your arms" were new to him?

Maybe that's why it's called Fridge Logic.

On 9/10/2020 at 1:40 PM, thumbs13 said:

This is just Shadow the Hedgehog's fault for changing how Maria died. It's weird that Shadow didn't do anything to gun soldiers who were kinda just there. after all those ark levels where Shadow does stuff, as opposed to SA2 where Shadow was just stuck in a tube and couldn't do anything. 

The ark levels in Shadow are Black Doom exacerbating his memory to fuel his vegeance.

He clearly didn't kill Heavy Dog after he shot Maria with a missile launching mech.

On 9/10/2020 at 1:44 PM, Wraith said:

In SA2 Maria was already holding her chest when she put shadow in the tube, implying that she had been shot already. Shadow frames the scene in a weird way but I dont think it was contradictory. 

 

Also, Maria slow mo falling or zero gravity tumbling into the capsule room after getting shot in the hallways.

On 9/10/2020 at 3:55 PM, Celestia said:

 

Here's a possibility: maybe he was already badly injured (and healed while in pod stasis I guess)? There's not really an indication of this aside from the fact he's noticeably not using his speed in any version of the flashbacks we've seen, with Maria even dragging him along in ShTH's version. But it's an idea I guess. (And now I want a version where she's carrying him, lol.)

Yeah, why didn't she do that actually?

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Cuz Maria was a plot device.

Shadow:"Sorry Maruia, I need ruminating over vengeance until my memories becomes all warped n' hazy, gotta need something to do during roughly 50 years of suspended animation".

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I don't know  if anyone cares at this point, but I think I have the answer. Shadow DID kept Maria safe.... until he was in the capsule.

Maybe Shadow was already a living weapon. Or he was confused wimp who never been in combat. Doesn't matter. Either way he managed to keep Maria safe long enough that they got to escape pods.

No one was around. I refuse to believe Shadow walked into the pod while angry soldiers are shooting at him and Maria. The pod seals. Only then door open. Soldier points gun at Maria. He tells her to step away from controls. She refuses. Trigger and lever are pulled at the same time.

Shadow watches and can't do anything. Why? Because he's in the the same kind of pod Eggman trapped Sonic during SA2. If Sonic couldn't escape it, neither could Shadow, especially in such a short time. Even if he knew Chaos Control already, at this point in timeline he 100% needed Chaos Emerald to teleport.

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That's not how either game presents it, though. SA2's version of the scene has them running through the corridor, the gunshot, then the capsule coming down around Shadow. ShtH's version has them running through the corridor, entering a room and turning around to see soldiers right behind them, then gunshot and end scene with no sign of the capsule.

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3 hours ago, Diogenes said:

That's not how either game presents it, though. SA2's version of the scene has them running through the corridor, the gunshot, then the capsule coming down around Shadow. ShtH's version has them running through the corridor, entering a room and turning around to see soldiers right behind them, then gunshot and end scene with no sign of the capsule.

True-ish. I mean, if both versions don't match, then which one is true?

Simple answer is that both version have flashes of light, implying that scenes jumps around.

Sonic X, while not official canon, is only version without time-jumps, since we have testimony of the soldier (who's much more reliable narrator than semi-amnesiac Shadow). So while I have no proof this is how things went, it makes most sense and I choose to believe that.

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The two games don't contradict each other, they just don't show the entire sequence unedited. The flashes don't imply that the sequence is jumping around in time, just that there are cuts, and I can't imagine any benefit to scrambling these shots. And what X shows doesn't supersede what the games show unless we're talking about X's continuity specifically.

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Sonic X's story was supervised by the Adventure 2 writer, so one could interpret some of the elements there as a reclarification of things. Of course, best to take that very lightly, since they definitely wasn't a Chris in Adventure 2, or two launched capsules (why). 

Shadow the Hedgehog's version does contradict, mainly in dialogue. The cutscene after Lost Impact level (why after that level I don't get): https://youtu.be/l1KOD0c6sHk?t=599

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I think Shadow wasn’t combat ready, he was still in bknding and being emotionally imprinted on. He didn’t know how to fight yet or wasn’t yet strong enough in his chaos powers. 

Shadow was in the cryo stasis tube for 50yrs, which means he had plenty of time for him to mature. For all we know im cryo sleep GUN or Gerald had him learning a la The Matrix or something. 

Most likely he was in shock when GUN opened fire on Maria, and had not learned to control his Chaos powers, while in SA2 and his own game he is 50yrs old, mature and anle to harness his powers, perhaps even drawing on his ire for the humans. 

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