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iambitter21

are 2d sections in 3d sonic THAT big of a deal?

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I'm just a bit curious about this, since I never really cared or felt that conflicted about them: why are so many people appalled to 2d sections in 3d? Maybe it's because of my first ever 3d game (besides 06, which was a loooong time ago) was generations, but I don't really see that much of a threat when I see 2d in 3d, yeah it's a bit unnecessary and redundant in a 3d, I agree, but that doesn't mean they're extremely insufferable because of that. but a lot of people are still so bleh about it for some reason. so honestly, why is 2d sections in 3d out of context so infuriating? is it the execution of said 2d sections or the concept of it alone that gets your blood curdled?

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The 2D sections are exactly what you'd expect of those titles- clunky gameplay and poor physics complementing some barebones level design. Not to say I think they're as bad as the other 2D content of the passed decade, but I'm also not a fan of Classic Sonic in Generations. It's OK though. Sonic Mania is the definitive way to handle 2D Sonic platforming and could have been done years prior if a competent dev. team existed then. As for games like Colors/Forces and their 2D areas, it just seems like cheap pandering to fans of "retro stuff" because it's in 2D, which automatically makes a game old school, I guess. Commentators who barely cared about Sonic thought it was great and it was bringing back "Classic Sonic" due to side-scrolling. The more "recent" Sonic games seem to be appealing mostly to children, predominant Nintendo fans, and people who enjoy basic mobile games. Mania is the obvious single exception.  

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For me, it’s mostly as one aspect of a bigger problem; modern Sonic games don’t give you much freedom to use a character’s abilities to explore and fool around and find things—and this has always been the case with modern Sonic to some extent.  The Adventure games had a lot of levels that were narrow paths surrounded by pits, and as of at least SC, they also added invisible walls, closer to the center of a path, further wrecking that—and then there’s the forced 2D. Obviously, it’s probably impossible to argue that sometimes 3D Sonic games are objectively more restrictive  than always 2D ones, but 2D Sonic games has a reputation for feeling more open abs emergent than many other 2D platformers, so it would seem a reasonable assumption that 3D Sonic games have the same relationship to other 3D platformers—yet instead; they’re more constrained, and this sucks because the mobility of Sonic should be great for exploration, and in 3D you can do even more of that.

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If Morio Kishimoto is doing the level designs, then yes. It becomes a major problem. 

Otherwise it's very much tolerable and not that big deal of a issue as long as the controls arent too clunky.

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If you’re gonna make “3D games”, I expect the games to be focused in the 3D perspective and not be reliant on 2D sections half the time. It’s why I refuse to call the main games since Colors “3D games” and if I really wanted to play a 2D Sonic game I can go to the Advance or Rush titles.

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People want to play a 3D game, and they don't like 2D sections just because. I've never seen anyone argue they're bad, and when people do their arguments fall flat.

 

Hot take: the Boost games are improved by their 2D sections. 2D allows for precision platforming to be easier than in 3D, multiple routes are easier to implement when you only have one axis to worry about, and it's presumably easier to develop when there's less shit that can go wrong in 2D. I like 3D, but some people seem to act like having 2D sections in and of itself is a cardinal sin, and I don't get it. Like, yeah, SA2 is entirely 3D, but when most of it is a hallway simulator anyways, who gives a shit.

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19 hours ago, knuckles20 said:

If you’re gonna make “3D games”, I expect the games to be focused in the 3D perspective and not be reliant on 2D sections half the time. It’s why I refuse to call the main games since Colors “3D games” and if I really wanted to play a 2D Sonic game I can go to the Advance or Rush titles.

Heck, even Mania! 
 

The key difference between the real 2D games and the may-as-well-be-2D games (and some later 2D stuff) is the design and flow. While the layouts of games like Advance, Rush, Rivals, and the 8-bit games are nowhere near as good as S3K (I’d argue Sonic 1 is more in the class of Advance), they are still superior to Colors. The big problem comes in when most of the advertised-as-2D games were just as badly implemented in their level layouts as the advertised-as-3D games; there isn’t much difference between Colors and Shattered Crystal in terms of design. The very existence of these advertised-as-2D games without much difference from the advertised-as-3D ones weakens the solidarity of 3D in the series. 

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10 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

The key difference between the real 2D games and the may-as-well-be-2D games (and some later 2D stuff) is the design and flow. While the layouts of games like Advance, Rush, Rivals, and the 8-bit games are nowhere near as good as S3K (I’d argue Sonic 1 is more in the class of Advance), they are still superior to Colors.

yeah, that's gonna be a disagree for me. Colors' main acts have actual platforming and exploration. Rush and Advance 2 are as boost/hold right-to-win as it gets. Except for the occasional platforming section, which handles like total ass. And Advance 3... is weird.

 As for Advance 1, that game actually has Classic-style (a.k.a GOOD) level design

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On 9/16/2020 at 6:03 PM, knuckles20 said:

If you’re gonna make “3D games”, I expect the games to be focused in the 3D perspective and not be reliant on 2D sections half the time. It’s why I refuse to call the main games since Colors “3D games” and if I really wanted to play a 2D Sonic game I can go to the Advance or Rush titles.

I agree that a 3d game should be, you know, mostly 3d. but, does that REALLY mean having any 2d sections at all, in any grounded quantity, in a 3d game suddenly make it "NOT a 3d game?" even Mario odyssey had mini 2d sections of it's own, and it's still called "one of the best 3d games made" (because it is, I don't make the rules). colors & forces are exceptions of this rule, because they either have longer spans of 2d sections, or are mostly 2d in quantity. but generations and to a lesser extant, unleashed, should still count as 3d games in my opinion. while yes they DO have 2d sections, they're either in shorter bursts, or in lesser quantities.

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Theoratically, if the next 3d Sonic game has it's majority in PROPER 3d, then I should have peace with 2d area's. However, in practice, at this point I'm so bitter about 3d gameplay being screwed for over a decade that any 2d will irritate me just on principal (Unless the game is genuinely a 2d game like Mania, or 2d is seperated into it's own seperate category like a bonus level.) After at least one proper 3d Sonic game I'll be more open for it.

I'm happy to call Unleashed a 3d game.
Even Rise of Lyric and Lost world, I don't mind calling a 3d game (It's more the "Sonic" aspect of the "3d Sonic game" theme those two have a problem with.)
Generations? No. If Modern Sonic was 100% in 3d, then sure, but Modern Sonic alone is only half 3d. Then add Classic Sonic (And the entirity of Generations 3ds)  to the mix and you are left with only 15% 3d gameplay across the entire package. Altough to Generations credit, at least the 3d area's are meaningful, so that's nice.

Keypoint to me is that 3d and 2d gameplay work diffrently. 2d Gameplay is more abstract, technical, more 'game".
3d is more immersive, an experience. Putting the player directly into the action.
I respect and like them both as their own entity, but when the same game tries to do the same thing WITHIN THE SAME LEVEL, I get a mental whiplash.
it's like hopping back and forth between Contra and Call of Duty.
Just give me one or the other.

The hybrid games miss the immersion of a 3d game and the control of a 2d game, thus failing at both.

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I actually would like to be with OP on this, but there's a lot of reasons on the execution end that the way Sonic uses 2D is just boring and frustrating. 

It doesn't have to be bad on paper. Almost every 3D Mario game also uses  2D sections as a pace breaker. It goes beyond pace breaking though when it becomes the default mode the game is in and is where all the meaningful mechanics are located. Not exactly the best way to follow up the Sonic Adventure games if this is going to share so much dna from those games.

In addition to what Diogenes says above, the complexity in the 2D sections usually doesn't exceed some of the less stellar 2D Sonic games, so it's hard to really meet these games halfway on what they want to do either. If they were cranking out real bangers with this angle I wouldn't have much to complain about. I've liked plenty of platformers that only use 3D sections in a limited capacity or are ultra linear instead of having exploration. 

Modern Sonic is just...not good at level design. Some of the new games are alright, but I would rather pick up the new Donkey Kong or one of those award winning indie joints or something if we're mostly dealing with 2D stuff anyway. Sticking with Sonic is just a worse value for less content and depth.

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6 hours ago, iambitter21 said:

I agree that a 3d game should be, you know, mostly 3d. but, does that REALLY mean having any 2d sections at all, in any grounded quantity, in a 3d game suddenly make it "NOT a 3d game?" even Mario odyssey had mini 2d sections of it's own, and it's still called "one of the best 3d games made" (because it is, I don't make the rules). colors & forces are exceptions of this rule, because they either have longer spans of 2d sections, or are mostly 2d in quantity. but generations and to a lesser extant, unleashed, should still count as 3d games in my opinion. while yes they DO have 2d sections, they're either in shorter bursts, or in lesser quantities.

It’s the way they use the 2D sections that end up making it the majority of the gameplay that bugs me. This is really notable when Classic Sonic shows up in Generations and Forces with purely 2D gameplay but for some reason Modern Sonic (even Shadow and fill in the blank in Forces) can’t stick with the 3rd dimension.

The whole thing comes off as a cheap and lazy way to satisfy douches over at IGN or any Classic fans that believe Sonic can only be good if he’s in a 2D plane and people calling Colors and Generations one of the best 3D games is a joke because again they put in the bare minimum amount of effort for the 3D gameplay.

Is it really too much to ask for an actual 3D Sonic game that actually commits to the 3D and not be reliant on 2D sections like a worn out crutch?

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13 minutes ago, knuckles20 said:

Is it really too much to ask for an actual 3D Sonic game that actually commits to the 3D and not be reliant on 2D sections like a worn out crutch?

If they continue to use the Boost game-play, then yes it very much is too much too ask.

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1 minute ago, StaticMania said:

If they continue to use the Boost game-play, then yes it very much is too much too ask.

Then they should stop advertising those games as 3D titles if the majority of gameplay isn’t going to be in 3D. This is like claiming the 2004 Spongebob movie is a live action film when those sequences make up about no more than 10 minutes of the entire movie.

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2 hours ago, StaticMania said:

If they continue to use the Boost game-play, then yes it very much is too much too ask.

I mean yeah, It's pretty likely they'd stick to the tradition of the other boost games and have 2d sections. since their greatest successes actually had 2d sections of their own, and you can't say no to a success like that, even if the fans don't really like it much. there could be chance that they use a bit less 2d sections in their games going forward, but we can't do much but wait.

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On 9/17/2020 at 9:09 PM, PaperSonic said:

yeah, that's gonna be a disagree for me. Colors' main acts have actual platforming and exploration. Rush and Advance 2 are as boost/hold right-to-win as it gets. Except for the occasional platforming section, which handles like total ass. And Advance 3... is weird.

 As for Advance 1, that game actually has Classic-style (a.k.a GOOD) level design

Colors has platforming that is rigid and forced. It feels uncomfortably boilerplate for the series. The platforming is not tuned to movement or tone, it doesn’t flow to the character’s abilities, and there are few to no action setpieces (generally once per game). It is more in-depth than some OTHER instances in the series, but it’s still not as natural as the limited platforming of Rush, Rivals, etc.

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What's weird is that Super Mario Galaxy got re-released for Switch, and literally NOBODY gives a shit about that game having 2D sections. Even when I see "which Mario game is better" debates, nobody says "Galaxy is the worst because it has 2D segments".

It's just Sonic fans who have this weird-ass "complaint"

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17 minutes ago, PaperSonic said:

What's weird is that Super Mario Galaxy got re-released for Switch, and literally NOBODY gives a shit about that game having 2D sections. Even when I see "which Mario game is better" debates, nobody says "Galaxy is the worst because it has 2D segments".

It's just Sonic fans who have this weird-ass "complaint"

Because for one thing, there's only like three of them. It's hard to complain about something that is at worst a stage specific gimmick, because even if you happen to be one of those people that don't like it it's not a concept that overstays its welcome anyway. For another, and this is the more important point here: Mario Galaxy does not use them as a fucking crutch. Galaxy already worked perfectly fine without them, and what we get out of the creative limitations of some levels is just a neat bonus - in Sonic, depending on which specific game you're playing, it makes up something like half of all the platforming content in the game and has only got worse since, to the point that as Diogenes pointed out above, Sonic Forces didn't even have fifteen minutes of 3D content in the game. This is on top of the fact that the 3D gameplay itself has been stagnating since the Adventures, and many will argue it was flawed even back then, so the overabundance of 2D sections in 3D games is often seen as recognizing that they still have no idea how to make their 3D gameplay stand up on its own - or in other words, using 2D gameplay as a crutch for it.

Good lord man, it's a more nuanced discussion than just having or not having a thing. If you're not even going to pretend to understand what the problem is, the least you could do is not barge into a thread slinging thinly veiled swipes at people. It's embarrasing.

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13 minutes ago, PaperSonic said:

What's weird is that Super Mario Galaxy got re-released for Switch, and literally NOBODY gives a shit about that game having 2D sections. Even when I see "which Mario game is better" debates, nobody says "Galaxy is the worst because it has 2D segments".

this is a good point I guess. but then again, it was sort of only at the beginning of the game, and maybe some occasional 2d sections scattered around the game.

then again-again. I think people would imply that we're doing a "mario can do X, but sonic can't?" debate like last time, and they would not be pleased (see the above post). so I would stop right here if I were you.

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28 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

Because for one thing, there's only like three of them. It's hard to complain about something that is at worst a stage specific gimmick, because even if you happen to be one of those people that don't like it it's not a concept that overstays its welcome anyway. For another, and this is the more important point here: Mario Galaxy does not use them as a fucking crutch. Galaxy already worked perfectly fine without them, and what we get out of the creative limitations of some levels is just a neat bonus - in Sonic, depending on which specific game you're playing, it makes up something like half of all the platforming content in the game and has only got worse since, to the point that as Diogenes pointed out above, Sonic Forces didn't even have fifteen minutes of 3D content in the game. This is on top of the fact that the 3D gameplay itself has been stagnating since the Adventures, and many will argue it was flawed even back then, so the overabundance of 2D sections in 3D games is often seen as recognizing that they still have no idea how to make their 3D gameplay stand up on its own - or in other words, using 2D gameplay as a crutch for it.

What do you mean only like three of them??? Galaxy has a ton of 2D sections, and Galaxy 2 has even more of them (there are Galaxies that are almost entirely 2D, like the first one with the Bee Shroom). The most likely reason why those games use 2D is because precision platforming is easier in 2D, and that applies to Sonic as well.

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Good lord man, it's a more nuanced discussion than just having or not having a thing. If you're not even going to pretend to understand what the problem is, the least you could do is not barge into a thread slinging thinly veiled swipes at people. It's embarrasing. 

I was probably being a bit dickish, and I apologize, but people pretty much do act like "2D sections=bad" and it grinds my gears. I've seen people say "why does Modern Sonic have 2D in Generations if Classic Sonic is already 2D" as if Modern Sonic having 2D actively made his gameplay worse or something. And people get hung up on "Not 3D" and don't want to discuss if there's actually benefits to 2D.

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1 minute ago, PaperSonic said:

What do you mean only like three of them???

If I got the exact quantity of them wrong then fair enough, it might have been a hyperbolic expression. But the point still stands regardless - there isn't that many of them, certainly not to the point that they OUTNUMBER the core 3D gameplay like they have in Sonic since Colours. And more importantly, Galaxy game doesn't rely on them to the point that it comes at the expense of the 3D gameplay and design like Sonic does. That's the distinction that separates the two examples here, and why one gets flak for it and not the other. The identity of the franchise or the composition of the fandom have never entered into it, so no, there isn't any double standards going on at all - certainly not here, at least.

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29 minutes ago, PaperSonic said:

...and don't want to discuss if there's actually benefits to 2D.

The benefits are obvious, it's a lot easier to design long stretches of 2D areas than it is to design long stretches of 3D areas...

Regardless of what any fangames may show you, 2D sections are the easiest addition of substance to Modern Sonic level design...

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