are 2d sections in 3d sonic THAT big of a deal?

[knuckles20]

I see nothing beneficial or substantive about 3D platformer games that requires 2D sections to the point that they overtake the 3D gameplay. It’s not that people hate 2D, it’s the way they have been used to pad out the lack of effort for the 3D titles in the last decade. If I’m paying $40+ for something that’s marketed as a 3D game, stop lying to my face and give me a god damn 3D game.

[Milo]

On 9/18/2020 at 5:56 AM, StaticMania said:

If they continue to use the Boost game-play, then yes it very much is too much too ask.

A Boost game with little-to-no 2D gameplay could definitely be done if the designers got their priorities straight. I think some proper adjustments would need to be done (dropping the pretense of being platformers, namely) but it's not some impossible feat.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills as I write the following sentence, as I tried searching for it for a good hour or two or so, and couldn't find anything. But I swear I came across quotes from some interview with the developers of Forces talking about how they approached the entire game under the philosophy of designing it as a 2D game, even describing the 3D sections as behind-the-back 2D sections.

Maybe I am being crazy and the above interview/quotes don't actually exist, but you can definitely see such mentality reflected in the level design. Most of the 3D sections are so rudimentary, linear, and shallow that they may as well be 2D sections with a camera positioned behind them. Especially so when you can create mods that change the camera angle and play through these levels with almost no issue; or play the levels while only using one hand/mostly using one button on the controller.

The overall point being the developers are not trying and failing to make fully 3D levels with the Boost games. They're simply not trying.

Moreover, even if all of the above was false and Sonic Team truly was struggling with making fully 3D Boost games. We still saw with Lost World how they took what was supposed to be a more traditional 3D Sonic experience with substantially different 3D gameplay, and still put giant swaths of 2D sections/2D levels in that game as well. As others have said, 2D sections/gameplay are being abused as a crutch when it comes to designing what are supposed to be 3D Sonic games.

[Multikaris]

On 9/22/2020 at 11:45 AM, Milo said:

A Boost game with little-to-no 2D gameplay could definitely be done if the designers got their priorities straight. I think some proper adjustments would need to be done (dropping the pretense of being platformers, namely) but it's not some impossible feat.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills as I write the following sentence, as I tried searching for it for a good hour or two or so, and couldn't find anything. But I swear I came across quotes from some interview with the developers of Forces talking about how they approached the entire game under the philosophy of designing it as a 2D game, even describing the 3D sections as behind-the-back 2D sections.

Maybe I am being crazy and the above interview/quotes don't actually exist, but you can definitely see such mentality reflected in the level design. Most of the 3D sections are so rudimentary, linear, and shallow that they may as well be 2D sections with a camera positioned behind them. Especially so when you can create mods that change the camera angle and play through these levels with almost no issue; or play the levels while only using one hand/mostly using one button on the controller.

The overall point being the developers are not trying and failing to make fully 3D levels with the Boost games. They're simply not trying.

Moreover, even if all of the above was false and Sonic Team truly was struggling with making fully 3D Boost games. We still saw with Lost World how they took what was supposed to be a more traditional 3D Sonic experience with substantially different 3D gameplay, and still put giant swaths of 2D sections/2D levels in that game as well. As others have said, 2D sections/gameplay are being abused as a crutch when it comes to designing what are supposed to be 3D Sonic games.

And even then, Lost World has many, many OTHER gimmick levels. Like the snowball rolling one. These sorts of gimmick levels feel as uncomfortable as the rigid 2D segments, if not more.

[PaperSonic]

Lost World is an interesting case, since while it does contain 2D, I've never really heard complaints that it particularly overshadows the 3D like in Colors and Forces. Game still has plenty of 3D, and the 2D sections are there generally to demand more precise platforming. The problems with the 2D sections in Lost World come more from the game's flaws (odd controls, reliance on gimmicks, often-frustrating difficulty) being accentuated due to the 2D parts usually asking more from the player.

The question I ask though, is:  would any of these games be actually BETTER without 2D in it? I figure you'd just get shorter stages, as well as less of them. People say "remove the 2D sections", when I feel simply having a better 2D-to-3D ratio would work fine. I feel Modern levels in Generations have a decent balance, although they could have used a bit more 3D.

[Wraith]

4 hours ago, PaperSonic said:

 

The question I ask though, is:  would any of these games be actually BETTER without 2D in it? I figure you'd just get shorter stages, as well as less of them. People say "remove the 2D sections", when I feel simply having a better 2D-to-3D ratio would work fine. I feel Modern levels in Generations have a decent balance, although they could have used a bit more 3D.

I mean it's obvious that people are asking for more meaningful content in the place of 2D sections, not just for them to he stripped out. 

[Multikaris]

On 9/25/2020 at 6:32 AM, Wraith said:

I mean it's obvious that people are asking for more meaningful content in the place of 2D sections, not just for them to he stripped out. 

For example, nearly every boss in the Modern Era has been in 2D, or a straight line while moving forward at your target, with few exceptions. One of the first exceptions was Zomom of all people, and the battle was still in an awkward birds-eye view rather than a full battle arena like the days of old. Even Chaos 0 could do cool things like jump on lampposts to attack from. 

[Nintenboi]

I think they were fine in Unleashed and Colors. But they just become unnecessary in games like Generations and Forces when we have Classic Sonic, a character completely dedicated to 2D. Overall, the 3D sections are just more enjoyable than the 2D sections and should be the Modern Sonic norm if Classic Sonic's there. 2D is tolerable, but less fun. It really is just a crutch at this point.

[ComeAsYouAre]

It feels like the 2d sections are a way to pad out the games without using Slower gameplay styles. Since 2D sections in colors were seen as more acceptable than the wherehog in Unleashed  Sega has overused 2D sections so much that it created a backlash

 

Overall the problem of Sonic 3D games needing to be padded  Has been a thing since Adventure, almost nobody provided a solution to it. The budget needed to create a long fully 3D Sonic game would probably be 4 times the Budget of Mario Odyssey given how Sonic Levels were 4 times bigger design wise than Mario levels in the 2d games

 

 

[UberHoax]

I think Em. Bani explained this issue quite well.

[ChaddyFant9me]

On 9/25/2020 at 5:17 AM, PaperSonic said:

Lost World is an interesting case, since while it does contain 2D, I've never really heard complaints that it particularly overshadows the 3D like in Colors and Forces. Game still has plenty of 3D, and the 2D sections are there generally to demand more precise platforming. The problems with the 2D sections in Lost World come more from the game's flaws (odd controls, reliance on gimmicks, often-frustrating difficulty) being accentuated due to the 2D parts usually asking more from the player.

The question I ask though, is:  would any of these games be actually BETTER without 2D in it? I figure you'd just get shorter stages, as well as less of them. People say "remove the 2D sections", when I feel simply having a better 2D-to-3D ratio would work fine. I feel Modern levels in Generations have a decent balance, although they could have used a bit more 3D.

People often talk about how SEGA never sticks to an idea and improve on it, but I feel not enough people stop to point out how the fans are the ones more often than not demanding entire things be scrapped and that we throw the baby out woth ththe bath water instead of looking at the good and sering how we can improve.

[Wraith]

4 hours ago, ChaddyFant9me said:

People often talk about how SEGA never sticks to an idea and improve on it, but I feel not enough people stop to point out how the fans are the ones more often than not demanding entire things be scrapped and that we throw the baby out woth ththe bath water instead of looking at the good and sering how we can improve.

There's always going to be people with extreme suggestions. Their job as professionals is to know better when it comes to how to move forward. 

4 hours ago, ChaddyFant9me said:

People often talk about how SEGA never sticks to an idea and improve on it, but I feel not enough people stop to point out how the fans are the ones more often than not demanding entire things be scrapped and that we throw the baby out woth ththe bath water instead of looking at the good and sering how we can improve.

There's always going to be people with extreme suggestions. Their job as professionals is to know better when it comes to how to move forward. 

[knuckles20]

4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

There's always going to be people with extreme suggestions. Their job as professionals is to know better when it comes to how to move forward. 

But with this topic, it not a case of “Eliminate 2D all together” but it’s more “I want 3D gameplay in these 3D games”. It’s getting to a point as shown in the previous page where the last main “3D” title barely had any 3D gameplay. Even before Mania there were plenty of games that was exclusively 2D for people who prefer 2D Sonic so there’s no excuse the same can’t be done for the 3D games.