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Scritch the Cat

Issues with recreating Classic Sonic gameplay in 3D, as observed from fangames.

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1 hour ago, DrParadise said:

Sonic robo blast is the best fan game I've seen since Sonic before and after the sequel, a big mayority of them are pretentious trash.

I agree with everything thing you said.

Sometimes I feel like Sonic fans have a lot of common with Sonic team.

Unfocused gameplay riddle with great ideas with terrible execution or gameplay ideas that don't mesh or felt tack on (werehog and classic in forces, limited level design in forces, tubular level design that feels underdeveloped in lost world, motion controls on wii, way too many characters in adventure, confusing camera in sa1 and 2, slow platforming that punish you for going fast in 06), and in fan games (open world maps with nothing more interesting than just hey look controls, multiple playable characters that are just clones of one another (og sonic world), mediocre sound effects like in forces (sonic gt) nauseating loops at high speeds, way too much blur (infinity engine is trash, is in the same calibur as jump force), camera that somehow it's worse and sa1 and specially 2 and much, MUCH more)

How I'm I suppose to believe than fan games are better than official games if most of them are unfinished projects that go nowhere, don't have any type of original ideas (Sonic team at least makes original stuff like the avatar, wisps and the excalibur), and overall fells empty, I know a lot of you don't like the official 3d sonic games, buy it seems rather selfish to have a mind set that bassicaly isn't really looking for improvement but rather destruction of sega, and that's a complete waste of time.

I'm going to ask this, why don't you put an 8 year old to play sonic gt vs generations and tell me their reactions.

What I'm trying to say here it's that guys, please don't try to reinvent the wheel, instead of trying to make an enjoyable game, you are just making trash after trash.

this is nothing but a big "fangames are ruining sonic" argument. those are very bad arguments if my "Sonic team & it's fans" topic I made says anything about that. accusing sonic fangames of spiting Sega is one thing (it's usually the players who spite Sega for that anyways), but calling every games that doesn't have that classic sonic style bad is another. why is making a fangame about sonic the way you want it to be wrong? is there only one true way to do sonic without being seen as complete trash? there's more than one way to do sonic in 3d right. is there an ideal? yes, project hero, sonic islands 2019, and especially Shaymay's concept really clicked with me and what I want from sonic, and I really want that to be the TRUE sonic from now on. but am I content with something different, yet kinda similar in a way? yes I am (as long as it doesn't have a goddamn run button, then I wouldn't have some problems), sonic doesn't have to be 2d-3d to be amazing, some boost fangames look extremely fun and I really wanna play some one day, sonic islands 2018's emerald hunting is pretty fun on it's own, and those little spin-off like games like Revert and That weird RPG game, where sonic is.... surreal, really draw my attention.

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1 hour ago, Blacklightning said:

Believe it or not, most fangames aren't built to compete with anything, much less Sega's efforts. Most people do it out of a simple appreciation of the source material, or to further their personal understanding of game design by emulating something that is close to them. They don't have an obligation to do better than you can get with a AAA studio's worth of resources, and frankly it's kind of pretentious to suggest that they have an obligation to anything that's not in their own personal interests. If they're subpar or unfinished, that's their choice to make - if you're not paying them to make it, why do you care?

People will keep complaining about fangames being inferior to the official games so long as there are fans saying they like some fangames better than the official games.  Of course the problem with getting into such a debate is that fun is subjective, but also the things people cite as fun aren’t always.  It’s a waste of time trying to convince people that fangames DON’T deserve credit when the things they praise the fangames for doing, such as having more playable characters and at least TRYING to have Classic-like physics, are objectively true of fangames and not of official games.  Maybe those aren’t the as big a deal for some people, but you can’t argue they are TRIVIAL when such things were part of Sonic in times when it was more successful.

Meanwhile, having played Sonic Encore a bunch more since starting this thread, I must say that I’m genuinely impressed with just how kinetic these 3D fangames are.  I think that while it’s always good to test and tweak things and keep new responsibilities in mind, certain things just work better in 2D than in 3D; however, the reverse is also true.  As popular as the Genesis games were, when they decided to make a platformer about a fast character, they needed to solve the puzzle of how you can control a character platforming at high speeds, and often they didn’t even try.  Instead, 2D levels were designed to give you slopes and curves in sections to show off speed, but also with walls and right angles to stop you and keep you slow when you had to do some platforming.  You can see this well in Chenical a plant Zone.  In 3D, with camera showing you what’s ahead of Sonic, this is no longer necessary.  You can see what’s coming, you have more time to react, and you can steer around some obstacles, and as such, I can at least commend some 3D fangames for creating arguably a more “pure” Sonic experience.  You almost never have to stop in these games, it’s totally possible for platforming segments to also be speed segments, and they often are.  I enjoy that immensely.  It doesn’t on its own equate to a great game for me, but it’s a great enough foundation to build a game on that I’m willing to compromise elsewhere.

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28 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

I enjoy that immensely.  It doesn’t on its own equate to a great game for me, but it’s a great enough foundation to build a game on that I’m willing to compromise elsewhere.

i'm really curious if you have any ideas of what should be added to this core to make a great game, other than like "make it a full game and not just a test map in a demo" which i see unfairly harbored at unfinished fangames as if it's that's all they intended it to be and weren't just figuring the core gameplay out first.

the only idea i can think of rn is throwing in some slow bits for variety, but given the kinda criticisms sonic usually gets, i dunno how well that'd blow over 

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On 9/21/2020 at 9:40 PM, Sean said:

It's not like people who make fanart or fan remixes are doing it because they think they can make better drawings or music than Sega's own artists. A lot of the "fans are better than Sega" stuff is the reception to these games and I haven't seen creators actively encouraging it.

You are 100% I have never seen any creator who has a superiority complex over fan games they make.

My main problem that started with mania is the whole message of "you are better than sega" and we instead of being critical like in the main line games, we just ignore all of the problems they have, despite the fact that sites like nintendo life and gamexplain bassicaly says otherwise with utopía.

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On 9/21/2020 at 10:47 PM, Natie said:

i'm really curious if you have any ideas of what should be added to this core to make a great game, other than like "make it a full game and not just a test map in a demo" which i see unfairly harbored at unfinished fangames as if it's that's all they intended it to be and weren't just figuring the core gameplay out first.

the only idea i can think of rn is throwing in some slow bits for variety, but given the kinda criticisms sonic usually gets, i dunno how well that'd blow over 

Addressing Sonic Encore in particular, but with points that are broadly applicable:

 
•Put in some way to figure out the correct way to go.  How about omochao to advise? If you don’t like omochao, plenty other sorts of hint triggers could work.
 
•Add more secrets off the beaten path, so getting turned around doesn’t feel like as big a burden.
 
•Either make characters a bit better at fighting or lessen the amount of enemies.  SE puts in gangs of enemies that try to dogpile the player.  With the homing attack requiring characters to turn around, as well as the camera around, this either leaves the character open to attack or forces the player to slow down.  Granted, just going so fast that you can just avoid fighting is usually possible, but that’s not an option if you want to go in for things like rings and power-ups.  As surprising as it seems to recommend anything from 06, perhaps the spin-kick from there could help.  But really, most people don’t play Sonic games for the combat, so if it’s down to a choice between enemies being less threatening than in 2D Sonic because you can get around them more easily, or more threatening than in 2D Sonic because they added more, I think many would prefer the former.
 
•Make more ways to get out of water traps.

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On 9/19/2020 at 12:03 PM, Wraith said:

I feel like a lot of ultra complicated reimaginings of the homing attack betray the idea that Sonic is just supposed to be a fun action game that anyone can pick up and play. 'Being too complicated" is a problem I have with a lot of fangames and concepts, but that's a seperate discussion. Almost every 3D platformer makes huge concessions to make jumping on enemies in 3D easier, and Sonic needs to make even more generous ones with the speed he moves around at. 

All of this is to say that the concept for the homing attack isn't actually worth rethinking. It's simple, intuitive, and serves it's purpose. Filler gameplay like homing attack chains are annoying, but that's not the fault of the move. It's the fault of lackluster level design.

Sometimes I remember that Sonic Generations of all games introduced a pretty good dichotomy where homing attacking the enemy would pop Sonic upwards and just hitting them normally would let Sonic bounce forward while keeping his momentum. The game never intentionally makes anything of it in it's level design but I think it's a pretty good way to start wrt making the move work without overcomplicating it.
I've been meaning to do a breakdown on how flawed I think Shaymay's concepts are on the whole for a while but he seems to agree with me since he's making a new Sonic video series anyway. Until then I don't see the point in getting too deep into it, but that's just one of many things I think he's wrong about. 

Its funny that you say that because im in the middle of that as we speak.

 

This is the first i hear that he is making a new video tho.

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