Sonic Mania: Any flaws?

[azoo]

The Drop Dash is an attack though.... ?????

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't put the Instashield or the Drop Dash on a button that was not meant for attacking.

[Wraith]

I would hope a second action button isn't something the team would rule out to stick with tradition. Almost everyone in the world is used to working with multiple buttons in games now so it almost makes more sense to me for accessibility's sake. Jump on one button and spin on the other with the usual down-A command still working. 

This doesn't have anything to do with the Insta shield, which I've honestly never really gotten the point of. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

11 minutes ago, azoo said:

The Drop Dash is an attack though.... ?????

I couldn’t care less what the Drop Dash is.

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I don't know about you, but I wouldn't put the Instashield or the Drop Dash on a button that was not meant for attacking.

You can use literally any basic button for attacking, mobility, or whatever ability that could add to the experience, so that’s not really saying much.

[Kuzu]

This kind of goes back to @JezMM point on how sticking to tradition just for the sake of it, isn't always a superior choice. I get the mindset behind the "one button philosophy" for this series, but I feel like it's only adhered to not because its a sensible design decision, but because it's just what the classics did and people are reluctant from deviating from that philosophy. 

It's 2020, I'm pretty sure you can add more functionality to Sonic's gameplay with the use of at least another button or two without compromising much

[Tracker_TD]

I mean sure, you could add more moves on different buttons, but we're talking about the Drop Dash and Insta-Shield. They really have no actual reason to be on different buttons, unless the mere chance of holding it for a second longer and triggering the drop dash animation that you can then instantly let go of just, upsets you to your very core. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Better utility isn’t an actual reason to move them to different buttons?

I mean this is why playtesting is a thing to help come up with better ways of playing a game. And I say this as someone who felt the Drop Dash actually did get in the way of my experience to the point I avoided using it in Mania.

I see few problems mapping the Instashield and Dropdash on separate buttons as you have more options to use one or the other, and different players can gravitate to whichever they prefer without any barrier in the way of both abilities. Controllers these days aren’t the same as they were almost 30 years ago—we have a lot more functions than we did back then, and it’s pretty wasteful not to make use of them if you ask me.

[Tracker_TD]

But it's not better utility. It's not necessarily intuitive either, as Advance 3 demonstrated. It's just doing things for the sake of doing them.

I really don't get how the Drop Dash could get in your way in a setup where they're mapped to the same button when you need to actively hold down the button for at least 1-2 seconds, before you hit the ground as opposed to the Insta-Shield, where you... tap a button quickly to use it. It doesn't make any sense; refer back to the earlier Fire Mario example. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

32 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

But it's not better utility. It's not necessarily intuitive either, as Advance 3 demonstrated. It's just doing things for the sake of doing them.

Advance 3 didn’t have the drop dash, and it’s abilities were more vertically inclined and based on a partner mechanic. Doesn’t help that it’s level design would also make the Drop Dash an outright suicidal ability to use if it were a thing there.

And I’d argue it is better utility. I could use the Instashield for one button and the Drop Dash for another without one in the way of the other. It’s not that pointless to give players more options to play a game.

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I really don't get how the Drop Dash could get in your way in a setup where they're mapped to the same button when you need to actively hold down the button for at least 1-2 seconds, before you hit the ground as opposed to the Insta-Shield, where you... tap a button quickly to use it. It doesn't make any sense; refer back to the earlier Fire Mario example. 

Because I prefer to tap a button quickly to use the Instashield than holding it down, as I’m more used to that than the Drop Dash and it also goes with me using the shield abilities that I’m used to using as well. That I managed to beat Sonic’s play through without using the Drop Dash means that I could personally do without it, but splitting the two functions means those who prefer the Drop Dash can still make use of it over the Instashield if that’s their personal preference.

Really, the point here is just to give players more options with these abilities. It’s not really going to hinder them.

[Wraith]

I don't think there's much to argue about here aside from preference. I think remappable controls should be a standard feature in games regardless. 

[StaticMania]

1 minute ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Because I prefer to tap a button quickly to use the Instashield...

Since tapping the button quickly wouldn't cause the drop dash to happen, what's the problem with keeping them on the same button?

It just doesn't seem like much of an issue. Considering how fast the instashield is, I'm not sure it would bother anyone that it happens slightly before the dropdash.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

9 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Since tapping the button quickly wouldn't cause the drop dash to happen, what's the problem with keeping them on the same button?

It just doesn't seem like much of an issue. Considering how fast the instashield is, I'm not sure it would bother anyone that it happens slightly before the dropdash.

Nothing. You could do that too, if you want, and I might actually be more inclined to use the Drop Dash that way if it suits my taste. But if it doesn’t, I’d like to be able to separate them. The idea is really just giving players options and utility to play the game the way they want, and if anything Mania showed me that sticking to one button for everything can be more limiting that I expected and players should be given more options.

[SonicWindAttack]

I think most people have already said most of what I could’ve said, so I’ll add something new: Encore Mode was a huge letdown.  In fact, it’s even more of a letdown after having such a strong opening.  I guess it’s a little disappointing that Angel Island couldn’t be a full level, but I won’t lose sleep over that.  But okay, the Phantom Ruby is still around, we rescue Mighty and/or Ray, Heavy Magician makes her appearance, and we get a glimpse of the partner system through alternate paths that only the new characters can access.  There’s a story here, there’s intrigue.  How and why were those two captured in the first place?  Is Heavy Magician gonna take over the role of main antagonist?  How will this all affect the story of this second run?

As you might have guessed, nothing comes of any of this.  Heavy King gets the Ruby back and everything resets to the beginning of Mania Mode.  Same levels, same order, same bosses, even same stage transitions.  It’s almost like everyone’s memories were reset to the beginning of Mania Mode, and if that was the intention, they did a poor job of portraying it.  Heavy Magician does nothing else noteworthy for the rest of the game.  Despite the rescued character you didn’t choose being her in disguise, the real one and everyone else just appear and join you once you break their respective monitors with no fanfare whatsoever.  And despite having a five-man team who can all go Super, we don’t get an extra Super final boss at all; we just see Eggman sucked into a portal (which I somehow doubt is going anywhere narrative-wise), the Ruby is presumably still at large, and Heavy King is still around to harass the heroes, showing perfectly just how pointless this entire journey was.

Besides the story, the actual gameplay isn’t much better, or at least more interesting.  Despite the earlier instance of having paths that are only accessible with Mighty or Ray, I can’t think of a single instance where something like that happens again.  I’m sure there are some, but they were either too out of the way for me to notice, or not rewarding enough to be worth it.  In fact, that can pretty much speak for the levels as a whole.  Besides new color palettes (some of which are downright ugly), none of the Encore levels really feel different enough from their Mania Mode counterparts to want to play them over the latter.  I hated the Mania special stages at first, but I eventually got the hang of them after mastering the learning curve.  Encore Mode makes this problem ten times worse by making the special stage rings even harder to find, spiking the difficulty to an absurd degree, and like others have said, having no reliable method to replay them at your leisure.  I’ve beaten Mania Mode multiple times with every single character and all Chaos Emeralds, but just completing Encore Mode once felt like a chore.

I guess I should talk more about the partner system, but I don’t really think I have enough to say about it, which I suppose is a problem in itself.  In fact, one of the reasons Encore Mode disappointed me so much is because I can freely admit how much potential the concept had.  I can see what they were going for, wanting to make a post-game experience in a similar vein to Knuckles’ run in S3&K, but they didn’t follow through on making either the story or gameplay different enough to bother with it. So yeah, just stick to Mania Mode.

[cosyalarm]

This is my first post here, but has anyone commented on level design yet? Paradoxically, in understanding the appeal of classic level design they created a sort of framework which becomes a little formulaic (I think). High path, middle path, low path, stage gimmick and then a harder variation of the gimmick later. Don't get me wrong, it's amazing for a first attempt by fans but outside of aesthetics and gimmicks the (new and elements of the remixed) levels do strike me as indistinguishable at times. Sometimes you need a sandopolis; even though that level isn't great, it's obvious variation from the design choices of the other stages gives you a sense of differentiation. I suppose my point here is that I wish they experimented more, although I get playing it safe for a classic comeback made by fans.

And I have to be honest I am not a fan of the mickey mouse-ifying of classic sonic that I think the game played into with it's marketing and general aesthetic choices in parts. I feel as though that's playing into how some people remember classic sonic and not how he was intended to be. There is just a hint of overly twee/ saccharine babyishness to a lot of the artwork.

[JezMM]

I feel the back-and-forth debate here is evidence that if they did want to add multiple actions, they should just have a controls setting menu.  Having DD and IS on one button makes sense to me, but an option to seperate them onto different buttons for those who prefer it hurts no-one.  I can see the logic behind allowing a shoulder button to be the secondary action input too, whether you choose to set the DD or the IS to it - it means you would never have to take your fingers off any input at any time.

[MetalSkulkBane]

40 minutes ago, JezMM said:

I feel the back-and-forth debate here is evidence that if they did want to add multiple actions, they should just have a controls setting menu.  Having DD and IS on one button makes sense to me, but an option to seperate them onto different buttons for those who prefer it hurts no-one.

Whole heartly agree. I don't know that much about making games, but I always though giving player choice is a win-win. And from what I understand it can't be that hard, since Mania can be played with keyboard.

Also I will defend live system. I'm fully aware that it's outdated mechanic, but I feel it's too big part of Sonic. Why would you collect rings if not to get extra lives? Where's the thrill of owning 88 rings and paranoia of every badnik on the way? I guess for Super Sonic, but that's not enough.
Lives, Shields, Blue Ring, Shoes. Sonic needs as many tiny rewards as possible to reward exploration. Mania pixel graphics make it unlikely that Sonic will get costumes like  MarioOddysey/Crash4 and that shop in Genearation wasn't all that fun, and Chaos protect us from RPG upgrades. And even if I'm wrong and costumes and skill trees would be added and work (maybe bring red rings too), sooner or later you'll unlock everything. Meanwhile getting extra live always gives a little satisfaction.

[StaticMania]

They could do what SAdv 2 does and the more rings you have increases your speed.

Capped of course.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

17 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

They could do what SAdv 2 does and the more rings you have increases your speed.

Capped of course.

Off topic, but no fucking wonder I kept missing the special rings to access the Special Stages in that game.

And I’ve gone this whole time not knowing that.

There was a status update posted of a Blaze mod in Mania where she spent 20 rings to make a flame shield. Something like that would be neat for all characters if you want to give the rings more utility.

[Wraith]

Personally in the camp of them keeping lives. I think punishment is undervalued as a teaching tool. 

That being said I'm pretty sure most actual game designers disagree with me on this at this point. If I were in charge of a "friendlier" Sonic game that was still satisfying for me to play I would make the following tweaks: 

-Lives get removed on the condition that the game doesn't get much less difficult than this otherwise  

-Remove the time limit but make the score penalty for taking too long more impactful/obvious. 

-100 rings nets you a shield free of charge instead. A tool that directly serves a higher skilled player by helping them horde rings until the end of the level. 

-rings are banked at the end of the level and you can spend them to unlock certain things. An incentive for solid play(though I'm guessing this will lead to new players saying it takes too long to unlock things instead so I bet I can't win here)

-Red star rings or some kind of other collectable would be introduced, placed to stretch the limits of your character. I figure grabbing them would be a way to unlock extras. Even if you've collected them already you can snatch them up again for a score boost ala colors. 

-some kind of hard gauntlet level as a post game unlock since I guess Titanic Monarch wasn't to everyone's cup of tea as a main obstacle. I enjoy levels like that though and have wanted another Eggmanland for years.

[Tornado]

As it pertains to lives, how many Sonic games in the past... Let's say twenty years have had it where lives are actually a limiting factor? 

Even ignoring how superfluous they seem in the boost titles (with Eggmanland being the exception that proves the point when it absolutely buries you in extra lives to prevent you from having a game over), the only game that seemed structured in a way that sorta necessitated it was Heroes. Other than Advance 1 and maybe Advance 2, all of the handheld games had levels that were flooded with rings and/or were menu/hub driven as well. 

[ChaddyFant9me]

On 10/5/2020 at 2:39 AM, JezMM said:

The thing about lives systems is that it punishes lower skilled players and rewards higher skilled players.  How many people in this thread ever got a Game Over on Mania, I wonder, even the first time through?  Those who did, who enjoyed it?  More importantly though, how many people get Game Overs now, where they're familiar with the game?  I can see the psychological motivation of having the threat of a Game Over screen, but I don't think it's worth harming the enjoyment of lower-skilled players when it's purely an imaginary concept for higher-skilled players.

See, the problem with this argument is it starts to break down once you start applying it to anything else. At what point does the theoretical or psychological etfect a mechanic have begin and cease to matter? So much of the point of games in general is the feeling you get from the expreience of playing it. 

By the same token, why should Sonic not just be invincible instead of having the ring system? You are just gonna pick up another ring anyway, right? 

Its incremental dents via this line of reasoning that, to me at least has lead to the gradual dumbing down of games, if not the medium in general.

 

Too often people are quick to justify any change that ultimately makes something significantly easier and or grinds off its edges by calling it a QoL change, to the point that , at least to me, the definition of the term has become much more wide and nebulous than it once was.

 

 

On 10/5/2020 at 12:38 PM, Iko said:

About lives system, I liked how lives were handled in Encore mode, where each character was 1up, and the total amount of characters was the total amount of lives you could collect before actually losing (the system is cool but IMO it still needs improvements). I don't like the classic lives/gameover system, I think it's outdated and makes no sense in modern gaming (it only really makes sense in arcade games where the goal is to get an high score).

But Sonic games are fundementally designed with arcade logic in mind tho.

[JezMM]

5 hours ago, ChaddyFant9me said:

See, the problem with this argument is it starts to break down once you start applying it to anything else. At what point does the theoretical or psychological etfect a mechanic have begin and cease to matter? So much of the point of games in general is the feeling you get from the expreience of playing it. 

By the same token, why should Sonic not just be invincible instead of having the ring system? You are just gonna pick up another ring anyway, right? 

Its incremental dents via this line of reasoning that, to me at least has lead to the gradual dumbing down of games, if not the medium in general.

 

Too often people are quick to justify any change that ultimately makes something significantly easier and or grinds off its edges by calling it a QoL change, to the point that , at least to me, the definition of the term has become much more wide and nebulous than it once was.

 

 

But Sonic games are fundementally designed with arcade logic in mind tho.

Simple - I consider the lack of progression until success is achieved to be a reasonable expectation of a player.  I consider repeating a minute or two of gameplay as punishment for failure to be a reasonable expectation of a player.  I do not consider repeating 10+ minutes of gameplay as punishment for failure to be a reasonable expectation of a player.  I don't know what that cut-off point is between the reasonable 1 minute and the unreasonable 10 minutes, suppose it depends on how fun the level is lol.

Now, I will concede there is a reasonable argument to be made that during that repeated play, a less skilled player should show patience and try to gather more lives, try to get better at the game so they arrive at the obstacle that they can't overcome with more lives.  But there's still sometimes the case that you can beat that 10 minutes flawlessly, but this one sticking point (Flying Battery 2's terrible boss, as an example) is doing you over every time, and spending 10 minutes repeating gameplay you've already proven you've overcome as "punishment" for having trouble on the last challenge is just not going to be fun for most people.  And that most people on this forum are probably too good at Sonic to have any idea what that's actually like.

One more related thought: I do think it's valid to say that it's okay if a Sonic game is just too hard to be welcoming for all skill levels.  It's fair to say "I just don't care if everyone gets to enjoy Sonic, I want Sonic to be hard."  Just don't go being a dick about it when someone says they don't enjoy a Sonic game you like because of it's difficulty (not that I'm at all suggesting anyone here is of course).  But yeah, not all games have to be welcoming to all skill levels. 

Personally though, and the reason I'm making this argument for a more forgiving failure state system in Sonic games despite the fact that the current one never affects me at all, is that I think Sonic is enjoyable for more than it's gameplay.  In fact, I'd say the fact that the franchise has survived so many absolute flops is a testament to that.  I'm sure most people here have a Sonic game or two (or three, or all)  where they put up with some real shitty gameplay stuff because they love the other elements of the game so much.  I think an ideal Sonic game should provide a welcoming experience for all, with increased challenge being an optional element.  To relate back to my previous story, I hate that Flying Battery blocked my wife from seeing the laid-back but thrilling gameplay of Stardust Speedway 2 and Mirage Saloon 2, or the beautiful aesthetic and music of Press Garden 2 and Lava Reef 2.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

There was a Lava Reef 2 in Mania?

It’s been a while since I played it.

Edit: Yep. Strange how I don’t remember that stage in the game...

[The gameboy69]

I hate that 70% of the game is reused zones and I would be more than happy not to see chemical plant and green hill. Too bad that shit head Iizuka forced to the mania to reuse zones. If they are going to make another sonic mania than it better have original zones or else I will root for the game to flop. 

Another thing I don’t like about the game are some of the bosses. The first press garden midboss is poorly designed. I never beaten the boss without getting hit ever. And fuck the egg spider in the flying battery zone. Sonic mania is a good game but it’s not as good as sonic 3 and knuckles. 

[ChaddyFant9me]

I also think people are being too harsh on the bosses.

The Sonic series have always had a problem with boss fights in general, in part due to the ring system and them being damageable at any point.

Its really not east to have an engaging boss while also making it a fair challenge in these games and for what its worth, i feel Mania overall does an exellent job in that regard.

 

1 hour ago, JezMM said:

Simple - I consider the lack of progression until success is achieved to be a reasonable expectation of a player.  I consider repeating a minute or two of gameplay as punishment for failure to be a reasonable expectation of a player.  I do not consider repeating 10+ minutes of gameplay as punishment for failure to be a reasonable expectation of a player.  I don't know what that cut-off point is between the reasonable 1 minute and the unreasonable 10 minutes, suppose it depends on how fun the level is lol.

Now, I will concede there is a reasonable argument to be made that during that repeated play, a less skilled player should show patience and try to gather more lives, try to get better at the game so they arrive at the obstacle that they can't overcome with more lives.  But there's still sometimes the case that you can beat that 10 minutes flawlessly, but this one sticking point (Flying Battery 2's terrible boss, as an example) is doing you over every time, and spending 10 minutes repeating gameplay you've already proven you've overcome as "punishment" for having trouble on the last challenge is just not going to be fun for most people.  And that most people on this forum are probably too good at Sonic to have any idea what that's actually like.

Id say the thing that should be done then is allow players to play against the boss immediatly from a game over instead of having to do the zone again. That seems plenty reasonable to me.

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One more related thought: I do think it's valid to say that it's okay if a Sonic game is just too hard to be welcoming for all skill levels.  It's fair to say "I just don't care if everyone gets to enjoy Sonic, I want Sonic to be hard."  Just don't go being a dick about it when someone says they don't enjoy a Sonic game you like because of it's difficulty (not that I'm at all suggesting anyone here is of course).  But yeah, not all games have to be welcoming to all skill levels. 

I absolutely agree with this. In general, i feel we in the Sonic fanbase are often too ignorant of how unconventional alot of the controls and mechanics to these games actually are to people outside of the bubble.

Things like the physics and rolling in the Classics homing attack chain in the Adventure or level of reflexes in the Boost games are feats of uncomprehensible mastery to your average platformer fan. And this also applies with inter-crossover between the games as well. I feel too often we take these things for granted in an era where being expected to get accustomed to things is largely treated as a flaw.

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Personally though, and the reason I'm making this argument for a more forgiving failure state system in Sonic games despite the fact that the current one never affects me at all, is that I think Sonic is enjoyable for more than it's gameplay.  In fact, I'd say the fact that the franchise has survived so many absolute flops is a testament to that. 

No disagreements there.

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I'm sure most people here have a Sonic game or two (or three, or all)  where they put up with some real shitty gameplay stuff because they love the other elements of the game so much. 

I mean, at least for me it comes down to how manageable the jank actually is as opposed to just being less good than other parts, but i get what you mean.

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I think an ideal Sonic game should provide a welcoming experience for all, with increased challenge being an optional element.  To relate back to my previous story, I hate that Flying Battery blocked my wife from seeing the laid-back but thrilling gameplay of Stardust Speedway 2 and Mirage Saloon 2, or the beautiful aesthetic and music of Press Garden 2 and Lava Reef 2.

Isnt that kind of how incentive systems work though? Your reward for getting over a challenge is the opportunity to experience whats next. There is a level of acccomplishment there.

While i am not unsympathetic to what you are saying, i feel there is a point where one must accept that videogames arent passive media and that part of the experiencing of a game is overcoming the chalenges it provides as opposed to it being a flaw of the media that the later parts werent accessible with minimal effort.

Compromises can definitely be made, but i worry deeply in regards to where the line of reasoning you set up here inevitably leads.

 

On that note, what was wrong with The EggSpider? I thought it was one of the best bosses in the game.

36 minutes ago, The gameboy69 said:

I hate that 70% of the game is reused zones and I would be more than happy not to see chemical plant and green hill. Too bad that shit head Iizuka forced to the mania to reuse zones.

 

Thats....not how that happened.

Mania was going to be just 4 zones until Iizuka came in and provided them with assets to make it into a full game.

Also, the insults towards the man are really uncalled for.

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If they are going to make another sonic mania than it better have original zones or else I will root for the game to flop. 

Another thing I don’t like about the game are some of the bosses. The first press garden midboss is poorly designed. I never beaten the boss without getting hit ever. And fuck the egg spider in the flying battery zone. Sonic mania is a good game but it’s not as good as sonic 3 and knuckles. 

I agree with the Press Garden Miniboss, as well as the Oil Ocean crusher miniboss. That was just bs.

Mirage Saloon miniboss was also jank.

[Wraith]

43 minutes ago, JezMM said:

 

Personally though, and the reason I'm making this argument for a more forgiving failure state system in Sonic games despite the fact that the current one never affects me at all, is that I think Sonic is enjoyable for more than it's gameplay.  In fact, I'd say the fact that the franchise has survived so many absolute flops is a testament to that.  I'm sure most people here have a Sonic game or two (or three, or all)  where they put up with some real shitty gameplay stuff because they love the other elements of the game so much.  I think an ideal Sonic game should provide a welcoming experience for all, with increased challenge being an optional element.  To relate back to my previous story, I hate that Flying Battery blocked my wife from seeing the laid-back but thrilling gameplay of Stardust Speedway 2 and Mirage Saloon 2, or the beautiful aesthetic and music of Press Garden 2 and Lava Reef 2.

This is a valid concern and why I've never actually positioned an argument against it. I'm not trying to do that here either but I wonder if the problem is that Flying Battery in particular is just annoying, lol. Most of the other levels in the game are shorter, easier to go through, less linear and have less difficult gimmicks to wrap your head around. The early game avoids crushers and pits..outside of this level. Linearity in particular is an important detail because at least in the other levels having to replay them might lead to a different experience. 

It's worth being critical of antiquated systems regardless and it would have been good to have a more forgiving checkpoint system as a safeguard, but that's just a thought.