Sonic Mania: Any flaws?

[JezMM]

11 hours ago, ChaddyFant9me said:

Isnt that kind of how incentive systems work though? Your reward for getting over a challenge is the opportunity to experience whats next. There is a level of acccomplishment there.

Absolutely, but it's important that developers don't allow their punishments to outweigh their rewards, and I think Flying Battery's gauntlet (as well as the fallout of making you do an entire zone over if you get a game over on the act 2 boss generally) is definitely a case of that.

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Conpromises can definitely be made, but i worry deeply in regards to where the line of reasoning you set up here inevitably leads.

If anything, I feel the ideal here is that it COULD encourage developers to make trickier games.  The Mario franchise really seems to have upped it's difficulty level recently by making sure that all mandatory challenges have a safeguard for those who just cannot get through a certain course, be it via the super guide of New Super Mario Bros, Super Leaf of 3D Land, or Luigi's assistance in Super Mario Maker 2's Story Mode.

Heck, if they did want to leave the "classic" difficulty as the standard mode of play, all they'd need is a prompt upon the player's first Game Over to advise them towards the more casual mode if they prefer.  I'm sure most hardcore fans will either never see that prompt, or it'll be an encouragement to prove their worth by sticking to the default mode.  Meanwhile, the level designers can provide a slightly more punishing experience, safe in the knowledge that if a more lightweight player loses their motivation, they'll have infinite tries at each hazard.  Heck, Lost World did actually have a feature where you could skip to the next checkpoint if you died enough times (though they did do a bad job of communicating what it does and putting it in easy-to-avoid locations sometimes lol.  I've never beaten that damn second pinball table in Frozen Factory legit because the skip capsule is put right in your way).

So yeah, when I say I want these features, I also feel like developers should use it as an opportunity to create even more challenging content for the other end of the spectrum.

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On that note, what was wrong with The EggSpider? I thought it was one of the best bosses in the game.

There's no clear visual communication on when you'll rebound off of it and when you'll jump straight through it, it's possible to be insta-killed by the spikes due to them not being indented into the walls, and his shooting attack pattern is pretty fast and well-aimed for something from the first half of the game.  Getting yourself into position for the next set of spikes while avoiding his attacks can be pretty tricky, and since the windows of opportunity are so small, it can be really frustrating to get hit and miss an opportunity to attack him, or to struggle to get yourself set up perfectly and then when you go to hit him it doesn't knock him all the way into the spikes or you just pass straight through.  It's all together really fiddley, even though it's a good boss in concept.  I think if I had to tweak it, I would've made it so he doesn't start shooting projectiles until halfway through the fight, so you have some time to get to grips with the fairly loose, physics-based mechanics before the pressure is put on.  And the intensity of those projectiles could have been toned down a bit all the same.  Additionally, I'd have made it so the bumper is sticking out of a base behind it that it retracts down into and dims whenever it's not possible to hit him.

[Iko]

On 10/5/2020 at 9:56 PM, Sean said:

Used to be I was a staunch defender of the "one button only" design choice of the Genesis games, but now I don't think it would hurt to have another even if I still don't mind that choice. The problem I have with the Advance games' moveset is that the extra abilities didn't seem too useful; they weren't inherently useless but these games just aren't designed for combat, and many of said moves killed your speed in a way that rolling and jumping don't. It felt as though the developers added them simply because they were staples in the Adventure games.

It also doesn't help that the instashield seemed to be heavily nerfed if not outright useless in Advance. I use it all the time in Sonic 3 but couldn't find any use for it elsewhere. Even in Mania it doesn't feel like it has the same properties, but I haven't messed around with it too much there to tell for sure.

I also like the idea of having just 1 button for everything, but it shouldn't be forced at any cost. Shoulder buttons are nice because they allow you to control a third layer of actions (first and second are movement and normal buttons) without messing with the more basic controls... for example, in order to press the start button, you have to leave your finger from the jump button; shoulder buttons allow you to press them without removing the finger from jump. I'm not saying that they should be used at any cost, but they are a nice option when you want to add more ability to use in parallel with the standard ones.

I agree that some of those attack moves were kinda bad, but that's really a matter of game design and level design. The advance games were clearly low budget and developed in a short time, both game design and level design were a bit lacking because of this, but a game made with more effort can redesign and implement those moves in a better way.

On 10/5/2020 at 10:11 PM, Indigo Rush said:

I think it's possible to come up with a good move, it just isn't going to be the somersault, yeah?

If with the somersault you mean Sonic's attack move, I think that it was the only decent one (Advance 2 version though, in Advance 1 it sucked) excluding Amy (adv1) and Cream's (adv2) attacks because their gameplay focused a lot more on the attack moves and they were used as base. That move gives you a small speed boost for a limited time, it can be used to fastly move toward a spring or a gimmick on landing without having to precisely hit it; it can be useful for speedrunning. It's also useful to hit badnicks near an edge without falling down, especially those that require timing (like that hammer badnik in Music Plant). You can do the same by rolling but it requires building up momentum and a lot more precision -> more time and skills.

[noahjump]

purely objective: not enough new levels in all honesty.

subjective: the hard boiled heavies are alright and all, but they are nothing compared to original bosses. same could be said for remade levels in my opinion.

i do love this game as with every sonic game.

On 10/4/2020 at 4:32 PM, iambitter21 said:

dude REALLY? it actually takes more than 10 MINUTES to make it through a stage in mania?

ya thats true i don't remember ever getting timed out i probably did but rarely.

[Multikaris]

There’s a handful of missed opportunities for Easter eggs in there. 

The “Robotnik” name, for example is never used, for one, leading to a usage gap for 3 years and its canonicity now in doubt. A code that changed the instances of Eggman to “Robotnik” could have worked. Mighty’s wall jump is also absent, and could have been nice to see with Max Control. The Homing Attack from Generations is also completely ignored. This, combined with Forces, implies Generations is no longer, or never was, canon. 

[PaperSonic]

I enjoy Mania a lot, but it is definitely bogged down by a couple of issues. The bosses are probably the biggest. Granted, the Classics had their stinkers (cough, Egg Golem, cough), but many of Mania's are either a waiting game or really gimmicky. I've complained about them before in the subreddit. The final boss is also kinda lame, compared to Sonic 2 and 3.

While I don't HATE the Drop-Dash, it felt like too much of a "press this to go fast" button. I prefer the Insta-Shield primarily due to being more Skill-intensive, although I guess removing the control-lock means it isn't that useful in Mania's engine.

Ray is fun, albeit completely broken. Mighty, however... easily my least favorite character in Classic Sonic to play as. He feels like Sonic except without the Elemental Shield powers and instead he has the ability to ignore hazards... which isn't that interesting and feels like an easy mode. The bounce could've been cool, but not giving you height from enemies like the Bubble Shield really blows.

The story is... low-key kinda bad? Bringing back the cutscenes from 3 is neat but the game kinda misses the point. Most of the time you just get warped around by the Phantom Ruby anyways, so that feeling of cohesion isn't really there. And in terms of stakes, it doesn't feel as grand or epic as 3. I also don't get why from Hydro City you fly to West Side Island... then go via submarine back to Angel Island, just to reach Little Planet. Like, why not just fly there to begin with? And why does Knuckles tag along instead of hauling ass back to make sure the ME is safe? I don't really care much, since gameplay is why I play Sonic, but it still feels undercooked.

Probably my biggest issue with the game is its lack of identity. The fanservice and level reuse are the biggest cause, but I feel the game is lacking in memorable moments that are not the result of the game referencing something. Like, when I think of setpieces from the Classics, I think of the Water Slides in Hydro City, Sonic overtaking the camera in Chemical Plant, Knuckles helping you out in Hidden Palace, racing Metal Sonic, Sonic 2's ending, etc. Aspects pf the game that became iconic and are impossible to separate from the game they came from. Memorable moments in Mania are almost always a reference to something else: to Puyo Puyo, to Sonic 2's Death Egg, to Sonic The Fighters, so on and so forth.

[StaticMania]

10 minutes ago, PaperSonic said:

...it felt like too much of a "press this to go fast" button.

It's not though...a single charge spindash barely puts Sonic above his average top speed.

[PaperSonic]

It's still faster than just running, and I believe faster than a barely-charged spin-dash. On many situations you just press it to go faster than you'd go in the older games.

[MetalSkulkBane]

I got new "tradition" that doesn't have to go away, but needs updating.

Goal plates. Changing them from Eggman to Sonic is fun. But why do they give you option to bounce then?

You'll do that almost automatically, but your only reward is some points, until you get bored and just let it fall. Yes, sometimes you'll get hidden item, but you it's random.

[expansivelovestories]

For many reasons i actually don't agree with this, so it is more of an uncertain concept than an actual flaw: perhaps, Mania may have been even better without including Sonic CD??  i do wonder which zones would be given those particular highlight/showcase spots in place of Stardust Speedway and Metallic Madness!

 

 

[Rabbitearsblog]

My biggest issue with the game is the ending.  I understand that this game was trying to tie into Sonic Forces, but it just ended up making the ending too anti-climatic and it felt like you had to play Sonic Forces just to see how this game actually ends.  I just wish that in Mania 2, they just keep that storyline separate from the other Sonic games so that it can stand on its own without relying on the other Sonic games.

Another problem I had with this game is that I think that they could have created more original levels instead of reusing older levels like Flying Battery Zone and Lava Reef.  I would like to see a more original game in Mania 2 with original levels.

[LeviTheGreat]

Sega need too just stop copy and pasting their work in general.Sega has been around too long too just do the same thing over and over again we need something fresh that the fans will enjoy.