Could a Devil-type character in Sonic work?

[EmTiven01]

You get what I mean. A villain who is deliberately modeled after Satan himself. Sure, we already had Mephiles but he was a one-off sort of deal. Do you think a Satanic archetype can still work in the Sonic series? If so, how should they be portrayed?

Personally, a Satan-esque villain in Sonic should be the deceptive and manipulative type. Taking advantage of Sonic and his friends' weaknesses. And if he were to be godlike in power, his schemes should be more petty and personal compared to Eggman's grandiose plans.

As for appearance, his should be based on occult figures like Baphomet.

[Scritch the Cat]

Maybe it could work, but I wouldn’t want it.  It’s too mature a subject matter for an E-rated game, it would get accusations of bias towards certain religious beliefs over others, and that sort of evil can’t really beget good Sonic gameplay.  At least, not the usual sort.  A villain who builds armies of mostly-weak minions fits into the structure of the series as a platformer that mostly focuses on speed.  What would the gameplay against such a villain as you described be?  Resist the devil’s offer to give you  a life supply of chili dogs if you agree to murder Tails?  That’s hyperbole, but your description doesn’t give me much to extrapolate anything else from it.  Maybe a tournament fighter could utilize such a villain as the one who turns characters against each other, with the character the player chooses presumably being the one who resists the pact.  But really, it’s entirely too controversial a concept to  justify even that use compared to another plot they could use.

[EmTiven01]

2 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Maybe it could work, but I wouldn’t want it.  It’s too mature a subject matter for an E-rated game, it would get accusations of bias towards certain religious beliefs over others, and that sort of evil can’t really beget good Sonic gameplay.  At least, not the usual sort.  A villain who builds armies of mostly-weak minions fits into the structure of the series as a platformer that mostly focuses on speed.  What would the gameplay against such a villain as you described be?  Resist the devil’s offer to give you  a life supply of chili dogs if you agree to murder Tails?  That’s hyperbole, but your description doesn’t give me much to extrapolate anything else from it.  Maybe a tournament fighter could utilize such a villain as the one who turns characters against each other, with the character the player chooses presumably being the one who resists the pact.  But really, it’s entirely too controversial a concept to  justify even that use compared to another plot they could use.

Maybe he could use all sorts of magical powers like Dark Gaia or Erazor Djinn.

[Rabbitearsblog]

2 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Maybe it could work, but I wouldn’t want it.  It’s too mature a subject matter for an E-rated game, it would get accusations of bias towards certain religious beliefs over others, and that sort of evil can’t really beget good Sonic gameplay.  At least, not the usual sort.  A villain who builds armies of mostly-weak minions fits into the structure of the series as a platformer that mostly focuses on speed.  What would the gameplay against such a villain as you described be?  Resist the devil’s offer to give you  a life supply of chili dogs if you agree to murder Tails?  That’s hyperbole, but your description doesn’t give me much to extrapolate anything else from it.  Maybe a tournament fighter could utilize such a villain as the one who turns characters against each other, with the character the player chooses presumably being the one who resists the pact.  But really, it’s entirely too controversial a concept to  justify even that use compared to another plot they could use.

I agree with this.  Having a devil like character in the Sonic franchise would just cause more controversy for the brand.  I mean sure, there were some dark moments in the Sonic games, like Gerald Robotnik's execution scene in Sonic Adventure 2, but I don't think having a devil character in the franchise would go well with the kid friendly image of the franchise.

[Simasuu]

7 hours ago, EmTiven01 said:

Personally, a Satan-esque villain in Sonic should be the deceptive and manipulative type. Taking advantage of Sonic and his friends' weaknesses.

I think this is how Eggman is portrayed too.

Personally I wouldn't approve of a devilish character in a Sonic game. I feel it would make the series even more incoherent than it is now.

I think Doom series handles the whole hell villain -thing very well.

[Multikaris]

Robotnik, mainly in Western adaptations, is already a Devil figure as he is, even in IDW. He, after all, tempts Mobians into sin whenever he roams, and Roboticizes them, effectively damning them, which he becomes more and more effective at over time. In Fleetway, it’s stated Mobius had several centuries of peace between the Echidnas and him, and Robotnik’s takeover allowed for crime to resurge. His “fall” from “forbidden fruit” (Chaos Energy) in fleetway also embodies how Satan fell from Heaven like lightning. AOSTH, Boom, and the movie are the biggest exceptions to this, due to being more light hearted or more grounded, respectively. (In Boom’s case, both at the same time).

[A super No.1 washedupgamer]

It worked before:

Only it was part of a crossover event in the comics.

[Multikaris]

31 minutes ago, AWild No.1 washed up gamer said:

It worked before:

Only it was part of a crossover event in the comics.

I remember that. I would have loved seeing Chaos Double in Worlds Unite...

[KoDaiko]

23 hours ago, EmTiven01 said:

You get what I mean. A villain who is deliberately modeled after Satan himself. Sure, we already had Mephiles but he was a one-off sort of deal. Do you think a Satanic archetype can still work in the Sonic series? If so, how should they be portrayed?

Personally, a Satan-esque villain in Sonic should be the deceptive and manipulative type. Taking advantage of Sonic and his friends' weaknesses. And if he were to be godlike in power, his schemes should be more petty and personal compared to Eggman's grandiose plans.

As for appearance, his should be based on occult figures like Baphomet.

It depends on what you mean by devil-type. Straight up referencing the devil and Satan would be more risky since some people would not like religion in a Sonic/kids friendly game. Mephiles and Iblis were vague enough for some people to miss the reference. Also, you don't really want a villain with god-like powers to be reoccuring.

If we go with "manipulative evil tempter who screw people over",  more threatening than the petty/personal type (I think that's more of a bully/rival)? That's pretty normal in fiction, sometimes even for kids stuff, and would probably work since Eggman is commonly portrayed as such (see: Archie). Only problem will be how evil he is and where to use him. Those type of character ends up being the big(gest) bad in many works...but given the fact Sonic games don't have many characters (=potential victims), lacks deeper storytelling, and the bad guy has to be defeated with a happy ending...it's gonna be hard to use them or make them reoccuring.

The comic has more freedom and flexibility so there's a highter chance of it working, but their effectiveness will depend on the writer.

[Wildcat]

No. I like horror but when it's straightforward devil and hell it turns me off. Not because of religious reasons I just don't like them.

I know that's weird when I love horror movies and evil villains like Chucky and other monsters but it's different when something is portrayed as the actual devil imo. Hard to explain.

[EmTiven01]

6 hours ago, KoDaiko said:

It depends on what you mean by devil-type. Straight up referencing the devil and Satan would be more risky since some people would not like religion in a Sonic/kids friendly game. Mephiles and Iblis were vague enough for some people to miss the reference. Also, you don't really want a villain with god-like powers to be reoccuring.

If we go with "manipulative evil tempter who screw people over",  more threatening than the petty/personal type (I think that's more of a bully/rival)? That's pretty normal in fiction, sometimes even for kids stuff, and would probably work since Eggman is commonly portrayed as such (see: Archie). Only problem will be how evil he is and where to use him. Those type of character ends up being the big(gest) bad in many works...but given the fact Sonic games don't have many characters (=potential victims), lacks deeper storytelling, and the bad guy has to be defeated with a happy ending...it's gonna be hard to use them or make them reoccuring.

The comic has more freedom and flexibility so there's a highter chance of it working, but their effectiveness will depend on the writer.

By Devil-type, I mean a demonic entity with vast supernatural power akin to Mephisto from the Marvel Universe. And he would definitely be the manipulative tempter type. The demon's minions would be other demons to contrast with Eggman's robots.

As for how evil he would be, he would probably be quite sadistic. Aside from manhandling Sonic and company, he would also toy with them on a psychological level. Such as preying on Tails' insecurities or causing Shadow emotional distress by assuming the form of Maria via shapeshifting.

His most used form would be some goat/human/angel hybrid looking creature much like something you'd see in demonology (He'd also probably be named after a notable demon in theology), with his true form probably looking something like Giygas.

And yeah, I can see a Satanic villain appearing in the IDW comics.

[DabigRG]

Has anyone mentioned that we have at least three devils commuting right now?

[Red Hot Jack]

 

Whether you like him or not, he's a devil basically, he's manipulative, he has fire based attacks, he is a leader of demons. 

They just need to write him as less cliché or cartoony dumb, it could work but the fans already see him as a 0 level threat so...

[MetalSkulkBane]

This is pretty pointless question, because answer is boring.

"Yes, if done properly by smart writer"

You know how many dang devils are in fiction for kids?

 

A lot. (not every example here is kid friendly but shush)

Don't give me this "ooh, think of controversy" bull. Don't tell me we're so afraid of public opinion that we must be less edgy than Powerpuff Girls.

Done by smart writer would work. Heck, topic starts with dismissing Mephiles, but I think his very existence proves that devil could work. I know some people do not like Mephiles (the fools!) but they usually complain about his over complicated plan or something, not on his demonic-eque style.

One thing I can't have hard time imagining would be making actual devil. No dancing around, just straight up saying he is a devil. Even less likely if would be saying out loud that bad people go to hell. (That and games don't need god like recurring villain. Chaos is the closest to this and Sonic can now beat him without super form).

[Wraith]

Mephilies, Black Doom, and the Deadly Six are already pretty obvious allusions to the devil/demons.  This question isn't even a hypothetical. It's been done before. They avoided any obvious references to Christianity but that's about as far as they went obscuring it. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Well damn. MetalSkulkBane beat me to the punch. 

If you guys don’t think this can work, you haven’t watched very many cartoons. Some nowadays are upping the ante and instead of devils are going for cosmic horror Cthulhu-like character.

Seen this show?

 

Looks far more kiddier and sillier than Sonic by leagues. 

Well I was watching it after a long while, and came across this unholy abomination that’s far out of place for what this show presents itself. (And that’s not even getting into the show’s backstory either)

It’s 2020 people, not 2006. Kid shows have had devil characters even before Sonic came along; they’ve had them when Sonic was more popular than Mario (who surprisingly enough has had a demon called the Shadow Queen in one of its most popular titles); and they’ve continued to have them and more since.

I don’t care about anyone personally not liking it, because at this point it’s basically saying no for the sake of saying no. But it needs to be said that people should stop acting like this is a controversial thing when we’ve had well over a decade of discussion figuring out what the actual problems have been and why these things might not work.

[Wildcat]

I don’t have a problem with demon/monster characters. Of course most cartoons have some kind of “devil equivalent” or such. (I don’t think King from Owl House qualifies. If you’ve seen the show he’s not really evil).

The OP made it sound like they should straight up include the actual devil as he’s traditionally thought of in pop culture. Why? It’s just too far imo when there’s already been characters that are close enough.

The pic is not showing up but I’m assuming Infinite was posted. I think he fits the OPs description.

[Nathan]

I personally think it would not work one reason the story in forces was terrible and how bad infinite character was his back story was so bad and just show up sometimes in the story so since how bad this character was and the recent lousy writing I don’t think they  could make a character like that 

[DabigRG]

15 hours ago, Nathan said:

I personally think it would not work one reason the story in forces was terrible and how bad infinite character was his back story was so bad and just show up sometimes in the story so since how bad this character was and the recent lousy writing I don’t think they  could make a character like that 

I mean, they could. The problem with the last few games has more to do with the story being messy and/or underwritten with the characters varying being off or not well handled.

 

A devil character would really just have to be evil, manipulative, and varyingly threatening, which are baseline for villainous characterization. And depending on how literal we are, there wouldn't need to be much more than that--its the devil, nuff said. All that matters is that he feels like an effective presence within Sonic.

17 hours ago, Wildcat said:

.

The pic is not showing up but I’m assuming Infinite was posted. I think he fits the OPs description.

It's meant to be Zavok, if you're referring to Jack.

[Scritch the Cat]

On 11/19/2020 at 10:16 AM, MetalSkulkBane said:

This is pretty pointless question, because answer is boring.

"Yes, if done properly by smart writer"

You know how many dang devils are in fiction for kids?

 

A lot. (not every example here is kid friendly but shush)

Don't give me this "ooh, think of controversy" bull. Don't tell me we're so afraid of public opinion that we must be less edgy than Powerpuff Girls.

Done by smart writer would work. Heck, topic starts with dismissing Mephiles, but I think his very existence proves that devil could work. I know some people do not like Mephiles (the fools!) but they usually complain about his over complicated plan or something, not on his demonic-eque style.

One thing I can't have hard time imagining would be making actual devil. No dancing around, just straight up saying he is a devil. Even less likely if would be saying out loud that bad people go to hell. (That and games don't need god like recurring villain. Chaos is the closest to this and Sonic can now beat him without super form).

The thing is, those series don’t really do what the original poster was proposing the Sonic devil to do.  Which wasn’t just serving as the embodiment of evil, but being specifically the sort of evil that seduces people with those things that they like.  Caricatures of the devil in fiction are, for most intents and purposes, just evil monsters to be approached the way a protagonist approaches other evil monsters.  The OP was proposing a character whose actual behavior is modeled on the Judeo-Christian view of evil.  It’s a belief that many people espouse, sure, but it’s so at odds with modern culture that it’s not worth it.  Games are supposed to be fun.  A villain who tempts heroes with the promise of fun is not in line with that.  I can’t get further into this without going too controversial for this board.  In fact, I’m surprised this thread hasn’t been locked yet.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 hour ago, Scritch the Cat said:

The thing is, those series don’t really do what the original poster was proposing the Sonic devil to do.  Which wasn’t just serving as the embodiment of evil, but being specifically the sort of evil that seduces people with those things that they like.  

Uh, yes they do?

Hades seduces Hercules with an offer that takes away his power on the condition that his love interest doesn’t get hurt. Aku from Samurai Jack makes offers to characters to fulfill his demands in exchange for what they want only to go back on his word after the obligation is fulfilled.

I can give another example of a devil-type character in a kid’s cartoon who follows this aspect even closer—Trigon in the original Teen Titans cartoon, basically Satan in all but name, makes a deal with Slade to return his flesh and blood if he brings him Raven so he can manifest a literal Hell on Earth only to turn back on that deal.

I don’t know much of what the other devil characters have done in the image, but some and others have done exactly what was suggested here. And I’m sure more can be found if one were to look around.

Quote

 

Caricatures of the devil in fiction are, for most intents and purposes, just evil monsters to be approached the way a protagonist approaches other evil monsters.  The OP was proposing a character whose actual behavior is modeled on the Judeo-Christian view of evil.  It’s a belief that many people espouse, sure, but it’s so at odds with modern culture that it’s not worth it.  
 

What “modern culture” are you talking about? Because it’s sounds more like culture still stuck in the 60s where this would be even more hard pressed to be found. A lot of things have changed over the course of decades that things that were once unthinkable have become a lot more accepted. Never mind how much more secular things have become since.

Quote

Games are supposed to be fun.  A villain who tempts heroes with the promise of fun is not in line with that.

Says who?

[thumbs13]

I feel like half the villains in this series have some sort of satanic edge to them. What's another one to the pile?

[Wraith]

On 11/22/2020 at 2:46 PM, Scritch the Cat said:

The thing is, those series don’t really do what the original poster was proposing the Sonic devil to do.  Which wasn’t just serving as the embodiment of evil, but being specifically the sort of evil that seduces people with those things that they like.  Caricatures of the devil in fiction are, for most intents and purposes, just evil monsters to be approached the way a protagonist approaches other evil monsters.  The OP was proposing a character whose actual behavior is modeled on the Judeo-Christian view of evil.  It’s a belief that many people espouse, sure, but it’s so at odds with modern culture that it’s not worth it.  Games are supposed to be fun.  A villain who tempts heroes with the promise of fun is not in line with that.  I can’t get further into this without going too controversial for this board.  In fact, I’m surprised this thread hasn’t been locked yet.

It honestly just sounds like you haven't engaged with most of the media in that picture. Like, it's based on cuphead and temptation is a central theme in that one. 

[BadBehavior]

Just take Mephiles, untangle his plan and give him a but more personality and boom. You've already got someone x1000 times better than most Sonic villains in the past decade.

So yes, they can work. Can they work well is another question.

[KoDaiko]

Ok so the conclusion here is that yes, devils/demons are fine and would totally work in Sonic (but would need a lot of good writing). But I forgot to answer EmTiven01's specific question/fan idea.

On 11/17/2020 at 4:38 PM, EmTiven01 said:

You get what I mean. A villain who is deliberately modeled after Satan himself. Sure, we already had Mephiles but he was a one-off sort of deal. Do you think a Satanic archetype can still work in the Sonic series? If so, how should they be portrayed?

Personally, a Satan-esque villain in Sonic should be the deceptive and manipulative type. Taking advantage of Sonic and his friends' weaknesses. And if he were to be godlike in power, his schemes should be more petty and personal compared to Eggman's grandiose plans.

As for appearance, his should be based on occult figures like Baphomet.

On 11/19/2020 at 12:00 AM, EmTiven01 said:

By Devil-type, I mean a demonic entity with vast supernatural power akin to Mephisto from the Marvel Universe. And he would definitely be the manipulative tempter type. The demon's minions would be other demons to contrast with Eggman's robots.

As for how evil he would be, he would probably be quite sadistic. Aside from manhandling Sonic and company, he would also toy with them on a psychological level. Such as preying on Tails' insecurities or causing Shadow emotional distress by assuming the form of Maria via shapeshifting.

His most used form would be some goat/human/angel hybrid looking creature much like something you'd see in demonology (He'd also probably be named after a notable demon in theology), with his true form probably looking something like Giygas.

We can have a literal cultish demon-looking guy (secretly an elderitch blob monster) with god powers and his own set of minions who can easily toy with the main characters. But I need to ask: why make an extremely condensed, straightforward stereotype devil design & character? Wouldn't that be a bit boring?

These are just general questions/comments. May add more later (under spoiler cuz long):

Spoiler

• Didn't Shadow move on from his past? Would he still be shaken, or will he be upset/angry for thinking a petty trick would work on him?
• Why would "his schemes should be more petty and personal" if he's a literal demon with god-like power & forms?
• What is his weakness/flaws? 
• Would the main cast listen to him if he looks so evil?
• I feel the character would have to be one-time if it has all the traits you mentioned. It's not fun to have a character that's more powerful than the main villain be reoccuring. And Sonic doesn't really need those type of "convenient plot device" -like characters.
• I still think he'd only work in a comic, since we'd need a bigger cast for him to constantly toy with. Given Sonic's formula they'd overcome/be immune to it pretty quickly, or else people would be annoyed.

 

• I think a smart manipulator type would be an interesting addition to the villain cast, but they don't really need all that demonic stuff. I mean being formidable without any unique physical power only with charisma, brain and charm sounds badass enough. When I hear demonic/devil-type, I immediately think of a final boss or something similar.