Megathread MT | Sonic Prime (Netflix, TV Series) - General Discussion

[Wraith]

It's true that Chris's problem has nothing to do with him being human, but I wouldn't say it was fixed by a simple balancing act either. shoving him more into the background in season 3 just proved to me how little had to contribute to the series as a personality.  Topaz is really one of the most mundane characters the series has ever had, but the reason it works so well is because she's designed from the ground up to contrast with Rouge in way that brings out the best parts of her. Parts of her we never got to see when she was paired off with the irreverent, brooding Shadow. . Most of the new characters in Sonic X are really just there to prop up the old guard. The results are pretty mixed but I'd say an attempt was made with most of them.

I can't think of a single time Chris did the same thing with Sonic. Not one time did their relationship lead to a heartwarming interaction or even a decent joke. Sonic already had a couple of clingy sidekicks at this point so conceptually he adds nothing and they don't even put an interesting spin on it. He's just too bland of a personality to wring anything interesting from, so buffing how 'useful' he was in season 3 was always a grave misunderstanding of the problem. He needed to be a different character entirely that had some kind of unique friction with Sonic in some way.

None of this has anything to do with whether he's a human, what powers/abilities he has, how wacky he is etc. There are good additions to the cast that are functionally completely regular people. Contrasting the mundane with the normal is one of the most fun things you can do with these characters. 

[Kuzu]

That is, ironically, what made Tom work in the movie. Its as generic of a buddy cop film as you can get, but he's effectively Sonic's adopted father by the end.

Yes, different continuity but the point is, doesn't matter if you're a human, your personality just needs to be interesting enough.

 

Sonic had a much better relationship with that disabled kid in one episode given he blew off a meeting with the president to spend time with her, which is a great illustration of Sonic's character that you just never see with his interactions with Chris. 

[DabigRG]

2 hours ago, Wraith said:

It's true that Chris's problem has nothing to do with him being human, but I wouldn't say it was fixed by a simple balancing act either. shoving him more into the background in season 3 just proved to me how little had to contribute to the series as a personality.  Topaz is really one of the most mundane characters the series has ever had, but the reason it works so well is because she's designed from the ground up to contrast with Rouge in way that brings out the best parts of her. Parts of her we never got to see when she was paired off with the irreverent, brooding Shadow. . Most of the new characters in Sonic X are really just there to prop up the old guard. The results are pretty mixed but I'd say an attempt was made with most of them.

I can't think of a single time Chris did the same thing with Sonic. Not one time did their relationship lead to a heartwarming interaction or even a decent joke. Sonic already had a couple of clingy sidekicks at this point so conceptually he adds nothing and they don't even put an interesting spin on it. He's just too bland of a personality to wring anything interesting from, so buffing how 'useful' he was in season 3 was always a grave misunderstanding of the problem. He needed to be a different character entirely that had some kind of unique friction with Sonic in some way.

None of this has anything to do with whether he's a human, what powers/abilities he has, how wacky he is etc. There are good additions to the cast that are functionally completely regular people. Contrasting the mundane with the normal is one of the most fun things you can do with these characters. 

There's also the matter of how he interacted with the other characters.

But since you brought it up, yeah, it kinda stuck out that half of the human world characters were more geared towards appropriate association with each of Sonic's friends, 

• Tails worked with and got supplies from Grandpa Chuck 
• Cream spent a lot of time with Ella the Maid
• Knuckles had that Chinatown outing with Hawk
• Amy went for a ride with Sam Speed at least
• Shadow got the plot line with Molly's group for a few episodes in Season 3
• Eggman is Eggman
• And of course, Rouge and Topaz were the best ones

But Chris himself is among those who kinda wasn't. He wasn't totally without decent interactions or moments with them and it kinda seemed like they just generally wanted him to be able to have scenes with each of them, which makes since he's the main one, but then ended up not really orienting him around anyone in particular enough to get the most out of em.

[Silvereyes]

7 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Model sheets are essentially the same thing...

Well, OK, fine, you still need to design the character for 2D. But I imagine it is far quicker to design a character for 2D, whereas with 3D CGI, from what I understand, not only do you need to make a model sheet to depict the character, you then need to actually build the character model which does take time.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong about that.

[StaticMania]

5 minutes ago, Silvereyes said:

Well, OK, fine, you still need to design the character for 2D. But I imagine it is far quicker to design a character for 2D, whereas with 3D CGI, from what I understand, not only do you need to make a model sheet to depict the character, you then need to actually build the character model which does take time.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong about that.

It's less about time than it is about money.

That's why CG shows reuse assets and locations a lot, it saves money and unless a new character is gonna stick around it seems more cost-effective to not do that.

[Silvereyes]

2 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

It's less about time than it is about money.

That's why CG shows reuse assets and locations a lot, it saves money and unless a new character is gonna stick around it seems more cost-effective to not do that.

Well, OK. Kindof proves my original point though that 3D CGI does have its limits. I would assume this would be far less of a problem on a 2D animated show?

[StaticMania]

Yeah, while it's still someone's job to design characters...resources aren't really limited the same way,

[Meta77]

19 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

I’m sorry, but frankly Sonic isn’t Sonic without comedy.  That doesn’t mean plots can’t have serious stakes, but one of the hallmarks of our hero is that he makes light of them, reassuring himself and annoying the villains.

You can have slight comedy like in Adventure series or even the idw comic while remaining serious for the most part. What I DO NOT want to see if the writing that took over from colors forward where EVERYTHING is treated as a joke to sonic.  Even he knows when to take a threat serious and not joke it up. Like in forces. Oh sonics locked up and worlds on fire and friends on the verge of defeat. Well he is still happy as ever in jail. While in SA2 for just a few moments in a cell he is freaking out.

[Rabbitearsblog]

3 hours ago, Meta77 said:

You can have slight comedy like in Adventure series or even the idw comic while remaining serious for the most part. What I DO NOT want to see if the writing that took over from colors forward where EVERYTHING is treated as a joke to sonic.  Even he knows when to take a threat serious and not joke it up. Like in forces. Oh sonics locked up and worlds on fire and friends on the verge of defeat. Well he is still happy as ever in jail. While in SA2 for just a few moments in a cell he is freaking out.

I agree with this.  While I also agree that the Sonic franchise is not complete without the humor, it's hard to take some of the characters seriously when they treat everything as a joke.  Like with Sonic in Sonic Forces, the fact that he still remains happy, despite the fact that the world is destroyed as we know it, made it hard for me to really take the whole situation seriously when Sonic barely reacted to the situation.

[Diogenes]

4 hours ago, Meta77 said:

You can have slight comedy like in Adventure series or even the idw comic while remaining serious for the most part. What I DO NOT want to see if the writing that took over from colors forward where EVERYTHING is treated as a joke to sonic.  Even he knows when to take a threat serious and not joke it up. Like in forces. Oh sonics locked up and worlds on fire and friends on the verge of defeat. Well he is still happy as ever in jail. While in SA2 for just a few moments in a cell he is freaking out.

I mean the jail scene in SA2 isn't exactly dead serious. He's impatient due to being penned in and pissed at Shadow for framing him, but it's not like he's brooding or depressed or desperate to get out. And in Forces, of course he's not going to let his captor think they're breaking him, he's going to play it off regardless of how he's actually feeling.

I just feel like these "Sonic jokes too much" criticisms threaten to strip anything interesting from the character. If he can't laugh in the face of danger, he's not Sonic.

[Kuzu]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

I mean the jail scene in SA2 isn't exactly dead serious. He's impatient due to being penned in and pissed at Shadow for framing him, but it's not like he's brooding or depressed or desperate to get out. And in Forces, of course he's not going to let his captor think they're breaking him, he's going to play it off regardless of how he's actually feeling.

I just feel like these "Sonic jokes too much" criticisms threaten to strip anything interesting from the character. If he can't laugh in the face of danger, he's not Sonic.

This is a big assumption, but I think its less "SONIC DOESN'T TAKE ANYTHING SERIOUSLY ANYMORE GAWD" and more "These stories lack any kind of  engagement and are dreadfully boring to watch". Nobody really knows how to articulate this opinion though, so you get the "SONIC NEEDS TO BE DEAD SERIOUS" group. 

[StaticMania]

18 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Nobody really knows how to articulate this opinion though, so you get the "SONIC NEEDS TO BE DEAD SERIOUS" group. 

I'm pretty sure you did at some point...

And the sentiment was very simple & clear: Sonic should know when to stop talking...

 

[VO.SUPER]

I feel like Sonic should also be going up against credible odds. Spiderman's banter isn't nearly as fun when his villains aren't such killjoy and dangerous. 

[SBR2]

2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

 

I just feel like these "Sonic jokes too much" criticisms threaten to strip anything interesting from the character. If he can't laugh in the face of danger, he's not Sonic.

This! Sonic is a jokester who laughs at danger. I sincerely don't want him to lose that because then he isn't Sonic. Just some generic protagonist. 

I also feel like people kinda overstate this idea that Sonic doesn't take anything seriously. He clearly has had several instances of him cutting out the jokes and being focused on the situation at hand in every game since Colors but people just ignore them because it goes against the "Sonic is Lolrandom meme" narrative. 

[Kuzu]

Like I said, its less that Sonic doesn't take anything seriously; it's more how the narrative is presented. Actually, its' a pretty good point. Its not that Sonic is less serious, the stories are less serious, so it makes Sonic's attitude less special. When everything is serious, Sonic is the only one who refuses to give in and just confidently moves forward. It not only provides relief to the dire situations, it genuinely makes Sonic seem defiant when he's irreverent in the face of overwhelming odds. 

I think the difference nowadays is that Sonic is less "defiant" and more that the situations just aren't presented as dire enough for Sonic's attitude to really shine through. So it just makes him feel annoying, because nothing he faces FEELS dangerous. 

When Sonic is facing gods and  talking shit? that's badass. When Sonic is facing the likes of Deadly Six, who present no threat to him whatsoever, his attitude is nowhere near as charismatic. Infinite talks all of his shit, but Sonic beats him in every one of their fights. By contrast, it took Sonic three tries for him to finally beat Shadow. A Hero is only as good as the villains he faces after all. 

[Diogenes]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

When Sonic is facing gods and  talking shit? that's badass. When Sonic is facing the likes of Deadly Six, who present no threat to him whatsoever, his attitude is nowhere near as charismatic. Infinite talks all of his shit, but Sonic beats him in every one of their fights. By contrast, it took Sonic three tries for him to finally beat Shadow. A Hero is only as good as the villains he faces after all. 

If you're going to call it 3 tries to beat Shadow, then the D6 chasing him off after he kicked the conch should count as a loss. Infinite, also, kicks Sonic's ass in their first meeting, and after the first boss fight with him he casually blasts Sonic and leaves, which is a tie in the best case.

[Wraith]

Yall can just say Shadow is cooler than the Deadly Six. It's okay. 
 

Sonic has been telling jokes pretty much since he started talking so I don't see the big deal. He had a more "down to business" personality in the older games but that's been gone since like, 2001. Whether the antagonist is effective or not is a separate issue from this. 

[Kuzu]

Like I said, its not just a matter of Sonic telling jokes; it's a presentation thing. It'd be weirder for Sonic NOT to tell jokes. 

 

[Wraith]

14 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Like I said, its not just a matter of Sonic telling jokes; it's a presentation thing. It'd be weirder for Sonic NOT to tell jokes. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Like I said, its less that Sonic doesn't take anything seriously; it's more how the narrative is presented. Actually, its' a pretty good point. Its not that Sonic is less serious, the stories are less serious, so it makes Sonic's attitude less special. When everything is serious, Sonic is the only one who refuses to give in and just confidently moves forward. It not only provides relief to the dire situations, it genuinely makes Sonic seem defiant when he's irreverent in the face of overwhelming odds. 

I think the difference nowadays is that Sonic is less "defiant" and more that the situations just aren't presented as dire enough for Sonic's attitude to really shine through. So it just makes him feel annoying, because nothing he faces FEELS dangerous. 

When Sonic is facing gods and  talking shit? that's badass. When Sonic is facing the likes of Deadly Six, who present no threat to him whatsoever, his attitude is nowhere near as charismatic. Infinite talks all of his shit, but Sonic beats him in every one of their fights. By contrast, it took Sonic three tries for him to finally beat Shadow. A Hero is only as good as the villains he faces after all. 

Oh yeah well I actually agree with this. One of my favorite pieces of characterization in the series is in Sonic Adventure's intro, where shots of the awesome power of the antagonists are contrasted with Sonic grinning cheekily at the screen, as if to say "who needs to worry?" All sharp visuals and editing with no dialogue required. 



He looks a little cross eyed these days, so I'd just like to assure our younger members that this was cutting edge fidelity in the 90s. 

[Kuzu]

As for the points about the Deadly Six and Infinite. I mean, there's a reason nobody takes  them seriously, because the writing simply isn't interested in actually presenting them as legitimate threats. It's the same issue that Eggman has nowadays despite always being the final boss. 

Sonic beats the Deadly Six in every one of their encounters, barring the first one and that was more due to Sonic's own mistakes than any actual ability on the Six's part. They drained the life out of the world, but with no sense of scale, it just feels like a minor inconvenience at best. Add to the fact that most of Sonic's jokes are at their expense, it doesn't really do much to sell that they're very "Deadly". 

And for comparison, look at how the Comics use them. They actually go around just fucking shit up, and there's very little jokes at their expense or bouts of incompetence from them. It actually helps a lot to sell them as credible threats than what Lost World ever did, and it didn't really have to do much. 

For Infinite; he ALMOST breaks the mold and actually does get the upperhand against Sonic, but they never really develop any kind of dynamic between the two; Sonic loses in the first cutscene, then Infinite returns and boasts how powerful he is before losing and then just retreating. 

 

This isn't just me fanboying over Shadow; it's a legitimate point of contrast. But notice how Sonic NEVER gets the upperhand against him before their final fight? In the first cutscene, Shadow outmaneuvers Sonic and gets him stuck in jail. Then in their second fight, Sonic manages to hold his own but not quite get over before the fight is called off. And in their final confrontation, Sonic is finally able to beat him. It's gradual buildup to Sonic inevitably getting that W that makes it feel worth it, because you, as the player, want to see Sonic succeed. 

 

They just...put way more effort into the antagonists before as opposed to nowadays, where it just feels like they're just going through the motions and not really trying to challenge Sonic in any meaningful way. Which isn't bad mind you, not every antagonist will put our hero through the hoops but when that's all we've been getting for over a decade, it can definitely start to feel draining. 

[Dr. Detective]

You know... it's strange.

A thought just entered my mind going down the list of shit that Disney just dumped on our laps about all the fucking shows they're going to make for Disney+ that's going to ring dry all the meat juice they can out of Star Wars, Marvel, and Pixar and it got me wondering about how my reaction would be to that sort of stuff if it were all Sonic TV shows.

Cause, I can sit here and be all jaded about it but when I actually stop and think about it, I'd have exploded in happiness had someone come out on stage and given me a goddamn Phase 6 timeline of Sonic cartoons.

Here's your obligatory Sonic cartoon where he fights Dr. Eggman.

This next series "MILES" will be about Tails trying to live up to Sonic's massive fucking shadow as he's tasked with saving a nation from some evil dude or whatever.

Here's a Knuckles series where we have an excuse to deep dive into the echidna lore and throw up massive middle fingers at Ken Penders.

Here's a show where Rouge the Bat goes on heists and shit.

Here's the Eggman series where we detail him conquering a planet of assholes so you don't feel bad for them when he wins at the end.

Here's a Chaotix Detective Agency series where they go around and solve mysteries like a noir version of Guardians of the Galaxy.

Here's a Blaze series where we learn about how her dimension works and go into why there's such a huge pirate problem there.

Here's a Silver series where we reveal it's basically Fallout except Silver's future apparently keeps changing so he's like some man out of time or something.

Here's a show where Big fishes. It's just a screensaver where he fishes from day to night set to some relaxing music to study too.

I don't know what the best format would be for anthology stories for the Sonic cast. Maybe it would be the games. Or the comics. Or the streaming service TV show route but I really want something like that honestly. I know this is just ONE show but thinking about it, if they were to do something that gave a bit of focus to individual characters in a manner that had it function kind of like one, I feel like that would be pretty cool. 

This is WAY OUT THERE thinking though but I couldn't shake the thought from my head.

 

[Scritch the Cat]

9 hours ago, Meta77 said:

You can have slight comedy like in Adventure series or even the idw comic while remaining serious for the most part. What I DO NOT want to see if the writing that took over from colors forward where EVERYTHING is treated as a joke to sonic.  Even he knows when to take a threat serious and not joke it up. Like in forces. Oh sonics locked up and worlds on fire and friends on the verge of defeat. Well he is still happy as ever in jail. While in SA2 for just a few moments in a cell he is freaking out.

But you didn’t SAY “Only slight comedy”; you said “NO comedy”.

[Wraith]

9 hours ago, Kuzu said:

As for the points about the Deadly Six and Infinite. I mean, there's a reason nobody takes  them seriously, because the writing simply isn't interested in actually presenting them as legitimate threats. It's the same issue that Eggman has nowadays despite always being the final boss. 

Sonic beats the Deadly Six in every one of their encounters, barring the first one and that was more due to Sonic's own mistakes than any actual ability on the Six's part. They drained the life out of the world, but with no sense of scale, it just feels like a minor inconvenience at best. Add to the fact that most of Sonic's jokes are at their expense, it doesn't really do much to sell that they're very "Deadly". 

And for comparison, look at how the Comics use them. They actually go around just fucking shit up, and there's very little jokes at their expense or bouts of incompetence from them. It actually helps a lot to sell them as credible threats than what Lost World ever did, and it didn't really have to do much. 

For Infinite; he ALMOST breaks the mold and actually does get the upperhand against Sonic, but they never really develop any kind of dynamic between the two; Sonic loses in the first cutscene, then Infinite returns and boasts how powerful he is before losing and then just retreating. 

 

This isn't just me fanboying over Shadow; it's a legitimate point of contrast. But notice how Sonic NEVER gets the upperhand against him before their final fight? In the first cutscene, Shadow outmaneuvers Sonic and gets him stuck in jail. Then in their second fight, Sonic manages to hold his own but not quite get over before the fight is called off. And in their final confrontation, Sonic is finally able to beat him. It's gradual buildup to Sonic inevitably getting that W that makes it feel worth it, because you, as the player, want to see Sonic succeed. 

 

They just...put way more effort into the antagonists before as opposed to nowadays, where it just feels like they're just going through the motions and not really trying to challenge Sonic in any meaningful way. Which isn't bad mind you, not every antagonist will put our hero through the hoops but when that's all we've been getting for over a decade, it can definitely start to feel draining. 

 i was only half joking about Shadow just being cooler than the Deadly Six. This is a character design so sharp and a personality so charming that you could conceivably start rooting for him over the heroes. Add onto the fact that Sonic Adventure 2 makes being able to actually take his side it's hook and you have a fucking winner of an antagonist. The game frames him as an equivalent to Sonic in every way, even down to letting you play the conflict from his perspective. 

The Deadly Six don't have nearly as much effort put into their designs, their personality or their motive. They seem almost deliberately charmless and disposable. The type of formless video game monster you're supposed to smack around and forget about. I assumed that was the intent behind creating them, anyway. More characters to throw in as stand in villains when the series needs them ala the koopalings. Not at all equivalent to the main heroes and villains we're here to see. The writing doesn't present the Deadly Six as legitimate threats because they aren't meant to be. They are low grade punching bags with stereotypical "bad" traits that make punching them as thoughtless as possible. They're closer to badniks or Iblis monsters than they are actual characters. They do exactly what they were intended to do, but there's always going to be something off about a bunch of punching bags in a series where almost every rival had another dimension to them. Sonic's supposed to be better than this, isn't it?

Infinite is like a half-step in the right direction. He has a design that's slick and makes you ask questions, and a power set that challenges the heroes beyond inspiring bland interpersonal drama. His cruel sadist personality isn't exactly anything new for the series, but it's been a while since we've seen it. I think the main difference that made him kind of a dud is that Shadow has a few sympathetic elements that made him a stronger character while Infinite's backstory doubles down on him kind of just being a petty child. I actually like that about him, but it means he's not gonna stick with me in the same way. I'm kind of glad that they at least seem aware of the antagonists that players find interesting. Maybe they'll get closer next time.

[Kuzu]

43 minutes ago, Wraith said:

 i was only half joking about Shadow just being cooler than the Deadly Six. This is a character design so sharp and a personality so charming that you could conceivably start rooting for him over the heroes. Add onto the fact that Sonic Adventure 2 makes being able to actually take his side it's hook and you have a fucking winner of an antagonist. The game frames him as an equivalent to Sonic in every way, even down to letting you play the conflict from his perspective. 

The Deadly Six don't have nearly as much effort put into their designs, their personality or their motive. They seem almost deliberately charmless and disposable. The type of formless video game monster you're supposed to smack around and forget about. I assumed that was the intent behind creating them, anyway. More characters to throw in as stand in villains when the series needs them ala the koopalings. Not at all equivalent to the main heroes and villains we're here to see. The writing doesn't present the Deadly Six as legitimate threats because they aren't meant to be. They are low grade punching bags with stereotypical "bad" traits that make punching them as thoughtless as possible. They're closer to badniks or Iblis monsters than they are actual characters. They do exactly what they were intended to do, but there's always going to be something off about a bunch of punching bags in a series where almost every rival had another dimension to them. Sonic's supposed to be better than this, isn't it?

Infinite is like a half-step in the right direction. He has a design that's slick and makes you ask questions, and a power set that challenges the heroes beyond inspiring bland interpersonal drama. His cruel sadist personality isn't exactly anything new for the series, but it's been a while since we've seen it. I think the main difference that made him kind of a dud is that Shadow has a few sympathetic elements that made him a stronger character while Infinite's backstory doubles down on him kind of just being a petty child. I actually like that about him, but it means he's not gonna stick with me in the same way. I'm kind of glad that they at least seem aware of the antagonists that players find interesting. Maybe they'll get closer next time.

And the funny thing about that point with the Deadly Six is that comics did in fact introduce characters like that in Rough and Tumble, except the comics don't even pretend like they're a big threat and nobody from the Hero or Villain side even take them seriously beyond just being a couple of brutes. There's nothing wrong with that, because not every antagonist needs to have some deep motive, but with the Deadly Six they keep trying to make them seem like they're on par with Eggman and that's just...wrong. 

I actually really liked Infinite's inferiority complex corrupting him into a monster, because it makes him distinct as a villain, especially when compared to Shadow.  Someone who didn't have confidence in his own abilities essentially sold his soul for power, it could have been a great negative character arc of showing character's fall if they were actually interested in doing that. Instead of he's just treated like an afterthought for another Eggman boss fight. 

 

I'm not going to say that every antagonist before was necessarily better, but it did feel like they at least tried to make them feel like legitimate obstacles for Sonic to overcome. Infinite was definitely their attempt at recreating that, it just fell flat sadly and he's one of the biggest examples of the game's wasted premise and potential.

[VO.SUPER]

I mean. I think the comics has been doing a good job developing Zavok into an interesting threat in his own right, better than the games at least.

I feel like it shows that in the right hands you can have villains other than Eggman be legitimate threats.