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What are some mandates by Sega you don't agree with?


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12 minutes ago, The KKM said:

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I'm sorry. I haven't read that issue, but what happened in that issue?

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Doesn't matter (it's not a good issue regardless), the cover itself alone is enough. That's what the "mandates" (which again don't work like a lot of people here seem to think they do) are there to do- to make sure Sonic is actually written like Sonic, Sonic the Hedgehog, the character who while emotive does not emote like "curling up in the corner bawling out with droopy spines", because not every character needs to be written like a Mexican soap opera character.

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The reason people are so hard on the mandates because the limits Sega puts on the cast contradict what fans have built up about them in  their heads.

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Sonic not being out of character is one thing, but it's undeniable that the series has had a trend of stifled, bland characterization for the characters in the mainline games so maybe we shouldn't go so hard to bat for how Sega thinks the characters should or shouldn't express themselves. Sonic's sheer lack of range as a character in some games being a feature instead of a bug doesn't make it less of a problem

Shadow's softer characterization from Archie is obviously the more popular one so I don't see why they shouldn't embrace it.

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12 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

The reason people are so hard on the mandates because the limits Sega puts on the cast contradict what fans have built up about them in  their heads.

Not just in our heads; by all evidence they were in the writers’ heads up through Sonic 06.  Maybe later if we include the storybook games.  The problem since seems to be that SEGA doesn’t seem committed to any one story idea, so makes plots easier to pull out of if they go tremendously bad.  The thing is, even bad things don’t necessarily go bad everywhere. When Shadow was revealed to have a big role in 06, a lot of people hated it even before they had any idea the game would be a dumpster fire on the whole, but in a big twist that game did a lot to salvage his character from the wreck of his self-titled game.  But the game itself sucked so hard that in SEGA’s eyes, almost everything in 06 became bad by association.  Except Silver for whatever reason; he keeps coming back even though both as an enemy and a playable character, he was one of the most terrible things about that game.

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55 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

The reason people are so hard on the mandates because the limits Sega puts on the cast contradict what fans have built up about them in  their heads.

Actually given what you can rugularly see in fanart and fanfic that might not be too far from the truth.

I'm not trashing on Fan fiction or fanart BTW it's just a lot of it has a very specific portrayal of certain characters. 

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51 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

But the game itself sucked so hard that in SEGA’s eyes, almost everything in 06 became bad by association.  Except Silver for whatever reason; he keeps coming back even though both as an enemy and a playable character, he was one of the most terrible things about that game.

That was likely because they had already planned on him sticking around and there was enough going for him to do so. Rivals 1 came out within the same year or so, for example.

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59 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Not just in our heads; by all evidence they were in the writers’ heads up through Sonic 06.  Maybe later if we include the storybook games.  The problem since seems to be that SEGA doesn’t seem committed to any one story idea, so makes plots easier to pull out of if they go tremendously bad.  The thing is, even bad things don’t necessarily go bad everywhere. When Shadow was revealed to have a big role in 06, a lot of people hated it even before they had any idea the game would be a dumpster fire on the whole, but in a big twist that game did a lot to salvage his character from the wreck of his self-titled game.  But the game itself sucked so hard that in SEGA’s eyes, almost everything in 06 became bad by association.  Except Silver for whatever reason; he keeps coming back even though both as an enemy and a playable character, he was one of the most terrible things about that game.

I personally have never been so married to one specific interpretation of a character that I just adamantly refuse to accept anything else; this is a thirty year franchise, you're going to get different interpretations from different writers. It happens. What matter is if it said interpretation is consistent with the general traits people know these characters for and if it makes sense in the context of the narrative.

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42 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I personally have never been so married to one specific interpretation of a character that I just adamantly refuse to accept anything else; this is a thirty year franchise, you're going to get different interpretations from different writers. It happens. What matter is if it said interpretation is consistent with the general traits people know these characters for and if it makes sense in the context of the narrative.

Sure, but “Aesop Amnesia” is a major feature of bad writing.  Shadow using guns and swearing reek of trying too hard to be edgy, but these things don’t actually contradict any of his personality or motives established before.  Shadow still being willing to destroy the Earth and punish all of humanity on the basis of how a few people acted is in direct contradiction of where he ended up in SA2, especially since he was still at that spot in Sonic Battle.

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On 1/14/2021 at 7:55 AM, Piko said:

That’s fair. I can understand backing out of “obsession” territory, but it seems like Amy isn’t allowed to be openly in love with Sonic anymore. While I agree that her character shouldn’t completely revolve around Sonic, you can’t deny that her love for him is a very important part of her personality.

I think Ian Flynn has written an interesting middle ground in how Amy's affection for Sonic is open but doesn't make her seem obsessive. One of my favorite lines from the IDW comics is her mentioning that the reason she loves him is because of his free spirit, and that to me personally works so well. Plus, ultimately her and Sonic's friendship is a lot better when she focuses on helping others as opposed to just only Sonic. So yes, this was actually a good thing IMO. 

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1 hour ago, Goodpolly said:

1. While thoughtfully self realized, this is just your opinion and has no concrete basis on objective truth about Shadows true character concept. This is a fan opinion that relies on Shadow being perceived as more than a dark twin of sonic, and this is most likely more in reality than what you said. Shadow as a character when it comes down it acted on the basis of not friendship but loyalty to a girl and her grandfather. His character facilitates anti socialness and tragedy in order to play the role of sonics opposite foil.

2. No one likes introverts, and shadow is the least relatable character. If you want characters that "that are closer to society mindset" then sonic and tails hit right home. They are the main pov focus for kids and portray as a perspective on cool teenager culture. Shadow is more surreal and unrealistic than realistic. Maybe because he's innately withdrawn, arrogant, and unpleasantly rude and grim to be around the cast.

 

Thats just me

 

I don't mind that you don't share my assessment of Shadow's motives, but the second bit, I find frankly disgusting.  You seem to be implying that there's something innately wrong with being an introvert and that not only isn't Shadow a good example of one, but that SEGA shouldn't have any example of one who's still decent because that would validate people you hate.  Dissing a character is one thing.  Dumping shame on real people who share some of that character's traits is a whole different matter.  We do not appreciate it.

In fact, I might as well come right out and say it: One of the absolute best things about the Adventure era is that was when this series let up, to at least some degree, on selling people only a specific, subjective  concept of "cool" with its title character, by adding a whole slew of characters and giving all of them a fair amount of attention, which meant that almost everyone had someone they could relate to.  Likely a good thing, too; at a time when Sonic was getting a new lease on life on the hardware of former competitors, keeping up the mindset of "Nya nya we're cooler than you" wouldn't serve them well. 

To say the series has plummeted from that state since 2006 would be a massive understatement.

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14 hours ago, Wraith said:

Shadow's softer characterization from Archie is obviously the more popular one so I don't see why they shouldn't embrace it.

Is it really? Because "yeah because I see more people say so" is a very big bit of confirmation bias. Do you regularly talk with people about Sonic who weren't the audience for Archie (American, teenager or diehard dedicated fan, able to buy the comics or willing to pirate them)? Does that represent the popularity of that interpretation in Japan? Or the UK? Or Russia? Amongst kids who only play the games?

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37 minutes ago, The KKM said:

Is it really? Because "yeah because I see more people say so" is a very big bit of confirmation bias. Do you regularly talk with people about Sonic who weren't the audience for Archie (American, teenager or diehard dedicated fan, able to buy the comics or willing to pirate them)? Does that represent the popularity of that interpretation in Japan? Or the UK? Or Russia? Amongst kids who only play the games?

This is all anecdotal but I mean it's working outward from 06, and the story elements of that game were more popular in Japan and Russia than they were here. This characterization isn't isolated to this one book either and was similarly unpopular when it popped up in the Sonic boom game. Maybe not every Sonic fan cares enough either way to notice the difference but then most of those people aren't even looking at the comic. No Sonic product is going to be inaccessible to children or casual buyers, but comic adaptations are almost always geared more toward enthusiasts by design.

They even take the discourse around the book into account in a lot of ways. Sonic's role in Sally's freedom fighters, the overt focus on interpersonal relationships, the focus on American made characters over SEGA's creations and the focus on world building over character writing were all more hotly debated things in Archie and IDW has tried addressing most of them. The writers and Sega both seem on board with making the book Sonic fans have wanted to see with this one thing being the sticking point. 

At the very least I don't think embracing it would cause any problems since Shadow's characterization was one of the few things I didn't see anyone argue about when it came to Archie. 
 

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2 hours ago, Wraith said:

At the very least I don't think embracing it would cause any problems since Shadow's characterization was one of the few things I didn't see anyone argue about when it came to Archie. 
 

I feel like this was because Shadow's overall role in Archie was severely reduced compared to what it was in the games; compared to the games, he was really underplayed in Archie, likely due to the shoehorned nature of the Sonic Adventure 2 adaptation and how distilled it was. And Scourge was pretty firmly established as Sonic's de facto foil already. Sega had also barred Archie from utilizing Black Doom, or Mephiles, so Shadow had no real personal enemies to fight either. 

It should be noted that his personality was starting to lean into what it would eventually morph into in IDW when the reboot happened; he was a lot...softer and amicable pre-reboot. I doubt Sega would ever let something like this pass again. After the reboot however, he was far less expressive and more straight-laced, they just didn't lean TOO hard into his hard-ass personality. It helps that he was the main focus in most of the arcs he was in without having to share the spotlight with Sonic. 

Without having a sub-series to really flesh out the world and characters, all of the cast members have to basically play second-fiddle to Sonic; that was the main reason they created Sonic Universe, as since the staff were mandated to have Sonic in every issue, they really didn't have much chance to flesh out anyone else without having to shoehorn Sonic in somehow. Without a secondary series, all of these  characters gotta share their screentime with Sonic. 

It doesn't help that IDW's setting is way less fleshed out than Archie's, pre or post reboot as a result of the setting being more line with the games, and Flynn can only add but so much world-building before Sega intervenes. Post-Reboot Archie was kind of the best of both worlds; you had the characters and fleshed out world exclusive to the comics, and you had a setting more line with the video games while still being distinct. 

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On 2/1/2021 at 8:16 AM, Kuzu said:

I feel like this was because Shadow's overall role in Archie was severely reduced compared to what it was in the games; compared to the games, he was really underplayed in Archie, likely due to the shoehorned nature of the Sonic Adventure 2 adaptation and how distilled it was. And Scourge was pretty firmly established as Sonic's de facto foil already. Sega had also barred Archie from utilizing Black Doom, or Mephiles, so Shadow had no real personal enemies to fight either. 

It should be noted that his personality was starting to lean into what it would eventually morph into in IDW when the reboot happened; he was a lot...softer and amicable pre-reboot. I doubt Sega would ever let something like this pass again. After the reboot however, he was far less expressive and more straight-laced, they just didn't lean TOO hard into his hard-ass personality. It helps that he was the main focus in most of the arcs he was in without having to share the spotlight with Sonic. 

Without having a sub-series to really flesh out the world and characters, all of the cast members have to basically play second-fiddle to Sonic; that was the main reason they created Sonic Universe, as since the staff were mandated to have Sonic in every issue, they really didn't have much chance to flesh out anyone else without having to shoehorn Sonic in somehow. Without a secondary series, all of these  characters gotta share their screentime with Sonic. 

It doesn't help that IDW's setting is way less fleshed out than Archie's, pre or post reboot as a result of the setting being more line with the games, and Flynn can only add but so much world-building before Sega intervenes. Post-Reboot Archie was kind of the best of both worlds; you had the characters and fleshed out world exclusive to the comics, and you had a setting more line with the video games while still being distinct. 

It makes me wonder with the recent shake up going on at SEGA, would this mean that they would start changing up their mandates for the characters or will they still keep the same mandates they have for now?

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  • 1 month later...

Sonic not showing emotions has to be my biggest peeve of the lot. It's not even a matter of showing vulnerability, although he gets instantly more relatable the moment he shows fear and doubt (even for just a second), it's a matter of being expressive. If all Sonic can be is happy-go-lucky with his friends, cocky with his foes and he can only display slight variations of smiling, he's going to get boring, even unbearable, very quickly. Toei Sonic and Boom Sonic are a treat to look at simply for all the emotions and faces they go through within a minute.

EDIT: Me bad

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On 1/31/2021 at 2:15 PM, Wraith said:

Sonic not being out of character is one thing, but it's undeniable that the series has had a trend of stifled, bland characterization for the characters in the mainline games so maybe we shouldn't go so hard to bat for how Sega thinks the characters should or shouldn't express themselves. Sonic's sheer lack of range as a character in some games being a feature instead of a bug doesn't make it less of a problem

Shadow's softer characterization from Archie is obviously the more popular one so I don't see why they shouldn't embrace it.

Imo, shadows charm comes from his dour, unsatisfied, and serious contrast of life and priorities towards other quirkier more light hearted characters and heroic archetypes the characters embody, the archie comics made shadow too happy and content in his plots, when the character once a represented a ongoing tragic bittersweet perspective that had no real end to his anger and dark experiences which affects how he persues justice, fighting, and saving the world in the present even though shth and 06 addressed this, he still has no agency being another content friend of sonic. Shadow found to much acceptence with his rivals and was too "nice" to the characters sonic usually hangs out with in archie, but all his distinctive iconic identity as a dark anti heroic gritty guy was gone and thats the shadow sega wants to market as its his concept as sonics dark doppleganger.

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I really liked Shadow's friendship with Hope in the original Archie Sonic universe. After the canon reset Archie Shadow became less interesting.

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I'm honestly blanking on many mandates that actually have to do with the games. Probably because they choose when to go against them.

Perhaps a helpful list is in order?

On 1/31/2021 at 8:59 PM, Goodpolly said:

1. While thoughtfully self realized, this is just your opinion and has no concrete basis on objective truth about Shadows true character concept. This is a fan opinion that relies on Shadow being perceived as more than a dark twin of sonic, and this is most likely more in reality than what you said. Shadow as a character when it comes down it acted on the basis of not friendship but loyalty to a girl and her grandfather. His character facilitates anti socialness and tragedy in order to play the role of sonics opposite foil.

2. No one likes introverts, and shadow is the least relatable character. If you want characters that "that are closer to society mindset" then sonic and tails hit right home. They are the main pov focus for kids and portray as a perspective on cool teenager culture. Shadow is more surreal and unrealistic than realistic. Maybe because he's innately withdrawn, arrogant, and unpleasantly rude and grim to be around the cast.

 

Thats just me

 

Oh man, I forgot about this mess.

12 hours ago, Yoshman said:

. Tohei Sonic and Boom Sonic are a treat to look at simply for all the emotions and faces they go through within a minute.

Tohei Sonic...?

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25 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Tohei Sonic...?

To be fair, I thought Toei had an H when I was a kid.

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On 3/6/2021 at 8:47 AM, Yoshman said:

Sonic not showing emotions has to be my biggest peeve of the lot. It's not even a matter of showing vulnerability, although he gets instantly more relatable the moment he shows fear and doubt (even for just a second), it's a matter of being expressive. If all Sonic can be is happy-go-lucky with his friends, cocky with his foes and he can only display slight variations of smiling, he's going to get boring, even unbearable, very quickly. Toei Sonic and Boom Sonic are a treat to look at simply for all the emotions and faces they go through within a minute.

EDIT: Me bad

That's another issue I had with how SEGA characterizes Sonic.  I don't mind Sonic being a happy, go lucky guy.  But, at least give him some depth to his characterization.  Like, have him feel fearful or question his actions here and there so he can be a bit more relatable to the audience.  One of my biggest criticisms with Sonic Forces (besides how Tails was portrayed in that game) was how Sonic act like being tortured during that whole time didn't really do anything to him and it just made the whole situation about Dr. Eggman actually taking over the world less believable.  

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The Chao thing is weird... how are they breeding if they're all an "it" lmao

As for Shadow, I don't really care if he's always moody and whatnot as it fits the character. Never really bothered me.

I do think it'd be great to show a more vulnerable side of Sonic though (like they sometimes did in the SatAM series). He's always portrayed as being fearless and overly confident so to show the other side of that would be really cool imo. I kinda wish they went more of that route for his character in SA as they really tried to develop most of the other characters (Tails and Amy wanting to be more independent and not be so reliant on Sonic, E-102 questioning why he exists, etc..)

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6 hours ago, sassytassie said:

The Chao thing is weird... how are they breeding if they're all an "it" lmao

It’s probably just for convenience when breeding, that way the player doesn’t have to seek out a male Chao and a female Chao.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 1/6/2021 at 5:49 AM, Dr. Detective Mike said:

The two worlds thing is dumb, although, hearing Ian say that apparently the two worlds, one of humans and one of anthros, exist within the same galaxy is kind of... I dunno. I assumed they were from another dimension like Classic Sonic's world but... eh. Maybe Dodon Pa uses his galaxy wide connections to help people go to and from each planet or something...?

 

This is going back a bit, but does anyone remember which Bumblekast episode this is from? I remember Ian mentioning it as an aside.

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On 3/12/2021 at 11:23 AM, sassytassie said:

The Chao thing is weird... how are they breeding if they're all an "it" lmao

 

On 3/12/2021 at 5:28 PM, Piko said:

It’s probably just for convenience when breeding, that way the player doesn’t have to seek out a male Chao and a female Chao.

Maybe they’re just hermaphroditic organisms? They basically are considering any two can mate.

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