Ken Pontac and Warren Graff are implied to be moving on from Sonic.

[Kuzu]

I honestly feel like it all depends on the story you're trying to tell, but yea, people are really reluctant to accept things they don't like regardless if it actually makes sense for the narrative. 

Like, Sonic's doesn't need to be a smug little shit when the story is about Shadow's quest for identity, or Silver wrestling with the morality of killing someone for your own benefit. 

And Sonic doesn't need to be a a boy scout if the plot is just about freeing some aliens that Eggman has kidnapped. 

 

I feel like every interpretation of Sonic is valid in it's own way, and the backlash against certain ones is somewhat misplaced a bit. 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

4 minutes ago, azoo said:

And to be fair, he was. That said, I think a softer side of Sonic is admirable, but maybe he shouldn't be that as frequently as he was. I remember when Colors came out that people responded rather well to Sonic having a bit of wisecrack and smug mischief to him; it was missing in all recent material at that point besides Night of the Werehog (a short with no dialogue).

Granted that too got grating over time, but that's what happens when the answer to one extreme is to take it in another..

I don't even really think it got particularly grating, more so that the dialogue didn't really ever sound smart, or funny. It's not like someone say Tony Stark where RDJ was an insanely good improviser, and most MCU writers knew how to handle snarky exchanges between characters, a lot of the "snarky lines" just got worse and worse as time went on, making Sonic look more like a childish dork more than a smooth-talking snarklord. That's not to say it didn't wear thin in the MCU either, but that's more so because in Phase 2, a lot of writers were trying to aim for the comedic line intermixed with serious scene shtick that Iron Man and the Avengers popularised. 

Colours has it's fair share of good lines, but when the dialogue in later games amounts to Baldy McNosehair, the "i'm so sorry you have no life" exchange that a six year old would come up with as a comeback, "You want me to join in? No, of course not - you hate fun", "if it pleases the court, all those who think eggman is a total bonehead raise their hands!!", and so many more like that.

Apart from a few lines from Colours, and maybe one or two lines from Forces, I genuinely fail to think of any funny lines or wisecracks that Sonic has actually pulled out within the span of ten years, without counting Boom - which had completely different writers. It'd be one thing if that was the point - like say Archie Sonic - where Sonic's 90's attitude and catchphrases got dunked on with stuff like this:

But it isn't - it's supposed to be taken as a genuinely funny snarky wisecrack, to the point where other characters will have to pop in with a "Good one Buddy!!" to reaffirm - yes haha you should be laughing at that, and the characters rarely - if ever get to leave these architypes because whenever they do attempt anything in an arc, it's so poorly done that it comes off as cheesy and weird at best.

Lost World having an arc for Sonic being too fast, and not thinking things through is a decent idea, and a actually good way to compare him to Eggman, who often does the same thing - not planning too far ahead and rolling with the punches when things go wrong, and Tails having to be humbled, and learning to put his ego aside for the sake of everyone else is also a decent idea, but they not only don't actually conclude the arcs - or worse - actively harm the arc's message of growth by going to the wrong conclusion (Tails was in the right all along for being a petty egotistical dick, while Sonic is never forced into a scenario where he has to not think fast, meaning he doesn't really change by the end of the plot). 

I mean, it also helps when writers just don't take it one way or the other with Sonic, as you've said. Unleashed wasn't perfect with Sonic's personality, but he not only had a fair share of decent lines and wise-cracks during Eggman confrontations, but they used the nature of the game to it's benefit to showcase Sonic's caring, heroic personality as well, as a dude who isn't just there to shut down an Eggman scheme and move on with his day - you as the player can choose to have Sonic take part in side missions in every region where Sonic's just helping some local with a problem, like helping kids get an anniversary present for their parents, or finding a music producer. Stuff like that is great, and really informs you on what type of character Sonic is without explicitly stating it via dialogue.

This is where I come in to say that yet again that I think it's more than fair to state where SEGA/Sonic Team's accountability in the plots starts and stops. There's no doubt that they themselves are responsible for so many of the problems that plague Sonic stories, and frankly - Pontac and Graff getting the boot won't make any of a difference until Sonic Team start taking it seriously themselves and actually develop their plots.

In 2021, Sonic just being a "kid-friendly platformer" isn't good enough anymore. We live in an era where Mario was getting called out for rehashing the same tired shtick for years on end, and where platformers typically make some effort of a narrative to push things forward, either being fairly simple - but still nice for what it is, or being a well-written plot in of itself - ala A Hat in Time, Ratchet & Clank (well, prior to the 2016 game), Crash 4, etc.

Half-assing a plot out the door isn't good enough anymore, and that's exactly what they've done with stuff like Forces, a convoluted mess that has two different origins for Infinite, bad explanations for what's currently happening (What extent does Infinite's powers have?), character motivations (Why was Eggman gonna drop a sun on himself?), and poor character usage (Tails, Sonic's friends, Classic, frankly everyone come to think of it).

But that said - that doesn't really excuse Pontac and Graff's role either. I don't think it can really be argued that for as many faults SEGA/Sonic Team make with a plot, the duo have taken it before and somehow added even more errors to it. When so many of Forces' most iconic plotting mistakes come down to localisation errors on Pontac and Graff's part, then they're actively contributing to, and making the problem that much worse. We already know from the Japanese script that a ton of the issues with the plot at launch - like Tails supposedly having lost his mind, and Sonic having been tortured for six months were simply Pontac and Graff's additions, and I'd like to think there's plenty more in the last decade.

Pontac/Graff and Sonic Team/SEGA are just bad when thrown into the loop together IMO. SEGA/Sonic Team make terrible plotlines as is, and then Pontac and Graff - instead of maybe improving upon the script when localising it, instead somehow add details that make it even worse, and a ton of groaner gags and jokes as well. Things won't get better until both have started upping their game, but getting rid of one half of the equation and hopefully bringing in someone better is a good start to improvement, frankly.

[Wraith]

i don't think Pontaff got Sonic's personality all that wrong. I think he and Eggman both talk too much but that might just be a byproduct of the games leaning more on dialogue over character acting as a whole(part of the reason why I think just getting rid of Pontaff isn't enough). He was still a nice guy with an irreverant streak and a strong sense of justice. As long as you got that down then there's not a whole lot to complain about. 

The jokes are just shitty. Like, Sonic not taking his foes that seriously is normal. You just don't really want to hear corny shit come out of a cool character's mouth. 

[ShadowSJG]

So are we entering a new era?

[Kuzu]

I feel like the problems ultimately lie in an inability to properly balance a lighthearted and serious tone all that well. In addition to the fact that some people just aren't going to jive with either side due to their own personal biases, no matter how "well written" it is. 

People, to this very day, still resent Sonic Adventure 2 for daring to take the series in a more serious direction and felt it was ultimately to the detriment of the series, regardless of how valid that statement is. The same is true in the opposite direction for Sonic Colors. 

Ironically, both sides think the other is childish which is hilarious: people who Sonic to be simple and lighthearted feel it's attempts at being profound and serious are childish, while people who prefer Sonic to be somewhat serious and profound think trying to tone that down is childish.

 

 

There's really no way of judging this honestly; I personally feel Sonic Adventure 2 was a very great game that managed to balance tones very well, providing both levity and profound moments, but clearly that opinion isn't universal. Conversely, I feel many lines in the Pontaff era were very childish and juvenile, but then I get shit from people who DO like that stuff soooooo whatever.  

[azoo]

29 minutes ago, Wraith said:

i don't think Pontaff got Sonic's personality all that wrong. I think he and Eggman both talk too much but that might just be a byproduct of the games leaning more on dialogue over character acting as a whole(part of the reason why I think just getting rid of Pontaff isn't enough). He was still a nice guy with an irreverant streak and a strong sense of justice. As long as you got that down then there's not a whole lot to complain about. 

The jokes are just shitty. Like, Sonic not taking his foes that seriously is normal. You just don't really want to hear corny shit come out of a cool character's mouth. 

Yeah, agreed. Plus it's much less about Sonic not taking his foes/stakes seriously and more about the audience not being able to, which is a different problem altogether.

Sonic not expressing a softer or more serious side is a side-effect of the plots themselves not really giving him a reason to be. Pontaff weren't ones to not try it once (see Lost World) but the story laid in place didn't let it have any weight. Considering they had more room to input than other Sonics I'm not sure how much of that is their fault, but I'm gonna assume not much.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

I don't think Sonic taking foes seriously is really a problem. Hell, if anything - him mocking so many foes only makes it seem much more valid and important when a foe does rise up that he feels the need to get properly angry with, and that gives him a bit more depth as a character.

Case in point - IDW #23 handles that really well with Sonic and Eggman's confrontation when most of the world has been infected, and Sonic's nearing the end of his rope, as he begins questioning why Eggman would throw everything away for the sake of this end of the world plot, and as Eggman acts more and more like a snarky egotist, Sonic begins losing his cool more and more, when prior to that pont, we'd mostly seen the usual snarky Sonic antics.

It's just his dialogue is written terribly, so that personality doesn't really shine through. A snarky wisecracker is obviously apart of Sonic's personality, and always has been - the issue is when the dialogue is so poorly written, it doesn't fit.

[Speedi]

25 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I feel like the problems ultimately lie in an inability to properly balance a lighthearted and serious tone all that well. In addition to the fact that some people just aren't going to jive with either side due to their own personal biases, no matter how "well written" it is. 

People, to this very day, still resent Sonic Adventure 2 for daring to take the series in a more serious direction and felt it was ultimately to the detriment of the series, regardless of how valid that statement is. The same is true in the opposite direction for Sonic Colors. 

Ironically, both sides think the other is childish which is hilarious: people who Sonic to be simple and lighthearted feel it's attempts at being profound and serious are childish, while people who prefer Sonic to be somewhat serious and profound think trying to tone that down is childish.

 

 

There's really no way of judging this honestly; I personally feel Sonic Adventure 2 was a very great game that managed to balance tones very well, providing both levity and profound moments, but clearly that opinion isn't universal. Conversely, I feel many lines in the Pontaff era were very childish and juvenile, but then I get shit from people who DO like that stuff soooooo whatever.  

It's so weird to me that both sides refuse to accept that having both kinds of stories is literally the best case scenario. Like, heroes works perfectly as a calmer more straight forward adventure after the heavier themes of SA2. Even the shonen action genre people (myself included) like comparing Sonic to use this to keep the audience from getting exhausted with back to back heavy hitter plots. A story doesn't have to be both at the same time, let the serious story be serious without trying to force comedy to ruin the mood and let the lighthearted stories be lighthearted without trying to force more complex conflicts into them. Some fans' obsession with thinking in extremes continues to astound me.

[Kuzu]

I do think Wraith had a point when he said the series shifting focus away from character action to dialogue is also a result of this. I'm gonna be blunt, Sonic dialogue is fucking horrible for the most part. Whether its in the 2000's or 2010's, Sonic dialogue on a good day, is PASSABLE. I just think its a lot easier to ignore shit dialogue when there's something going on on screen to distract the player. 

 

Sonic and Shadow's dialogue isn't particularly profound or anything, but the fact that they're about engage in a race while said dialogue going on is what makes the scene work imo. 

 

(God, this cutscene is still so fucking cool, like holy shit. Look at that buildup.) 

1 minute ago, Speedi said:

It's so weird to me that both sides refuse to accept that having both kinds of stories is literally the best case scenario. Like, heroes works perfectly as a calmer more straight forward adventure after the heavier themes of SA2. Even the shonen action genre people (myself included) like comparing Sonic to use this to keep the audience from getting exhausted with back to back heavy hitter plots. Let the serious story be serious without trying to force comedy to ruin the mood and let the lighthearted stories be lighthearted without trying to force more complex conflicts into them. Some fans' obsession with thinking in extremes continues to astound me.

You know its funny, because it kind of mirrors how many Shonen fans feel about "filler" stories. Anything that doesn't progress the main plot is generally vilified. Conversely, you have too much action and plot, and people start growing fatigued and want to slow down. 

With Sonic though, the games tend to operate at one extreme or the other; they're either too plot heavy or not plot heavy enough for some people. 

[Speedi]

I feel like that's just another example of the fans making up problems that don't really exist. Sonic stories are generally self contained with very few exceptions, you don't need to have every single plot of a game be relevant so some overarching narrative because there isn't one. Heroes and SA2 have nothing to build up to so them being completely different kinds of Sonic stories is perfectly fine. I know Shadow's game was sort of foreshadowed in Team Dark's playthrough but it's so downplayed I'd hardly consider it sequel bait or anything. Like I said, by making both kinds of stories instead of just you one can completely remove this "issue" altogether. People will complain no matter what but at least then the complaints stop being worth paying attention to.

[SBR2]

3 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I really don't understand this assertion that "Sonic had no personality" before. 

Was it just a personality that you didn't personally care for? Because he very clearly had one otherwise. 

I don't know I just prefer Sonic being more openly snarky and having more of a feeling like he's having fun. I never really felt that much in pre-Colors games. He just sorta felt like he was just wasn't ever all that invested in what was going on. 

I bring up points like the Nega-Wisps reactor scene in Colors and his focus on saving his friends in Generations and stuff like that a lot but I just think he feels more like he actually does care about what's going on. 

[Kuzu]

23 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

I don't know I just prefer Sonic being more openly snarky and having more of a feeling like he's having fun. I never really felt that much in pre-Colors games. He just sorta felt like he was just wasn't ever all that invested in what was going on. 

I bring up points like the Nega-Wisps reactor scene in Colors and his focus on saving his friends in Generations and stuff like that a lot but I just think he feels more like he actually does care about what's going on. 

Was Sonic 06 the only game you played before Colors, because...

 

 

I don't really understand this complaint at all. Sonic is very clearly emotive and having fun in these cutscenes, so where is the idea that he was just a boring plank of wood with no personality coming from? So once again I ask, was Sonic 06 the only game you played before Colors?

[shdowhunt60]

I watched the interview that Pontac had in its entirety, and I came away with knowing far more about the man than I ever had before.

Like I had no idea that he worked on Lazytown and did the lyrics for the You Are a Pirate song. That's seriously nuts, major props to him that song was pretty kickass aside from the Stephanie bits (which he apparently didn't actually write lol). Also listening to him explain his other works in stuff like Bump in the Night and Happy Tree friends made me realize...

Ken Pontac is actually a really creative and clever individual.

Seriously, he's like a lot of other people I would normally like to follow like Doug Tennapel or something like that, he has that 90's brand of weirdness to him that I always kind of dig, and he's clearly pretty smart so....

Why does his Sonic writing not reflect that?

And I think that the answer lies sort of lies in his attitude towards the writing as a whole. His attitude was pretty much "oh that was a fun, cheap, easy job to do I guess", and I came away a bit frustrated. Because clearly it wasn't something he was invested in like all of the other projects he talked about on the stream.

And it's not him I'm specifically frustrated at or anything. Like I get it, sometimes you just gotta take a gig to make ends meet.

But then the question kinda becomes, why did SEGA repeatedly hire him and Graff? After all, Ken Pontac is someone who has a lot of creative potential to him. But the problem is, is that where his talent and creativity lies, is not in something that I'd think would be a good fit for Sonic. I know @Roger_van_der_weide kind of hit on this, but to expand on it... I'd expect Ken Pontac to work on something like Earthworm Jim and not Sonic.

The only thing I can think of is that SEGA hired him and Graff is because they were cheap; not because they thought that their creative strengths lined up with Sonic.

And that's where I get frustrated. Not at Pontac or Graff, they were just guys doing their jobs. But clearly I don't think they were being used for their potential. Rather, SEGA was just looking for someone cheap they can get to to do a script for them.

I think it's kind of telling too when Pontac and Graff's best work in the whole franchise was with Sonic Boom, and I think that's really where they should have been used more.

[Ricochet]

I recall that jap Sonic in SA2 says something along the lines "Sorry, I guess being stubborn is my saving grace". It's more poetic than 'I die hard', but nevertheless , both have an alright delivery. It was visuals that actually setup the epic engagement.

2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

shifting focus away from character action to dialogue

This remark reminds me of Looking Glass Studio (Ultima Underworld,Thief I &II,System Shock I & II,etc.), a 90's gamedev company that lasted only about 10 years but left quite a legacy to the industry. I also consider them as among the finest videogame storytellers overall.

So anyways. Conveying narrative exposure through exploration(or more precisely interactions between gameplay and level design) was the signature creative direction of their writing, rather than let cutscenes and dialogue carry most of the weight of the storytelling (as it happens in modern sonic), which in turn were relatively sparse on their games.

E.g. when they put audiolog recordings all over the place in System Shock II, these were they were  pretty short, and their message typically fit on the tiny PDA data screen, and also made sense as element  in the setting where the action happens: a prototype research FTL starship. Also usually reinforced by logical environmental narration that gave them even more proper context. The same can be pretty much said about notes,ledges,books,etc. or even valuable loot scattered around a Thief's level, which helped both on understanding the main actors of the linear overarching plot, or reveal some useful knowledge from the self-contained story in the current mission.

The point is, since Sonic is heavily visual, action-ridden; and considering Modern doesn't intent to replicate the same minimalist, yet fitting, storytelling of Classic. I believe the franchise could benefit from some core concepts of LGS narrative direction to tell a story (except for audio/note logs since these haven't much place on a sonic game), instead of throwing most stuff on cinematics that end up as mere flavored intermissions between stages. 

However, for that even be possible, the writing staff has to work quite closely with the dev team, and a talented editor for the cutscenes. Which  sadly isn't the case, as Pontac n' Graff admitted to not know much about Sonic. I'm afraid the new writers would work on similar terms.

[Soniman]

4 hours ago, Strickerx5 said:

Plus, hey, 06 is still very much the low bar for writing in the series so at least they didn't go below that.

 

I realize this is probably from personal preference but I say with complete sinceritiy of you ran a fandom poll of which story they thought was better between SLW and 06 I genuinely believe 06 would win. Simply because of the recent stories people have become so fed up with ended up being a net positive for 06's reputation haha 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

34 minutes ago, Soniman said:

I realize this is probably from personal preference but I say with complete sinceritiy of you ran a fandom poll of which story they thought was better between SLW and 06 I genuinely believe 06 would win. Simply because of the recent stories people have become so fed up with ended up being a net positive for 06's reputation haha 

I mean,as much as I hate 06's plot as well, at the very least - 06 has Shadow going for it, and many people standby 06!Shadow being one of the best appearances by him. I also say that Silver's got some moments as well. 

At the very best, Lost World has a few minor Eggman moments, and maybe Zavok at a stretch and that's about it. Lost World doesn't reach the depths of terribleness that 06 manages to achieve, but it also doesn't manage to reach any kind of heights that 06 for better or for worse managed to. So you can have a technically worse story with more redeeming qualities flung through it, or a less bad, but still not good story with no thrills or moments of decent quality whatsoever.

[Kuzu]

I mean, they're both terribly written stories for different reasons. But given the current climate in the fandom, 06 would probably win out.

@Blue Blood brought up a funny point over on Sonic Retro about this; if he had a gun pointed to him and was forced to choose between Maekawa's writing or Pontaff's writing, he'd choose the former but would heavily considered just pulling trigger lmao.

[Dr. Detective]

I do have to agree about the issue of the stories of today that, while avoiding the massive lows of Sonic 06, because they're so stale and afraid to do anything they don't have a chance to hit any of the highs either. 

I hate Sonic 06 and it's story is god awful... but, and I talked about this recently, on a whim I decided to listen to the whole soundtrack while working on something and the event music got me especially emotional. I got super fucking hyped listening to the music that plays when Sonic shows up in that opening cutscene; the only cutscene in the game where he acts like Sonic.

I even quoted the lines and did the threatening Eggman finger-point followed by the spiraling missiles thing that happened when it reached a certain point in the music. 

I thought that might have been just a fluke but not really. The music kept getting to me, even during the events that I thought sucked. Like the music that plays when Blaze sacrifices herself or the track that plays when the worst thing that everybody hates happens. The kiss that shattered dimensions with the screaming rage of Sonic fans all across the world. I was super confused as to why it was hitting so hard for me but honestly it's not too hard to figure out now. Out of it's intended context, it's actually a lot easier to appreciate the emotion behind what's happening when you recognize that there was an actual attempt to elicit some sort of emotion and the music does a phenomenal job getting that across. 

The only event music I've gotten into in any of the games from Colors onward has been from Lost World. I do genuinely like the cutscenes in Lost World (for the most part) and the variations of the Deadly Six themes in that game are really good, especially the one with Zavok  where that demonic music plays of him smirking and telling Sonic that Tails is gonna be turned into a robot before he jumps away laughing.

And then that's followed up by the Dragon Dance music in the next Sky Road level that's not only a beautiful track but it's almost haunting in a way. Like the way the instruments are going at it, almost sounds like a pounding heart beat as Sonic tries to race after the guy who just threatened to roboticize his best friend, all the while Zavok's taunting him from echoes in the sky.

It's legit the best part of Sonic Lost World and it still kind of hurts that after that, the robot subplot just gets undermined.

I really gained a new appreciation for how all the elements within a game, not just story elements, but movement and music, can really work well together to sell the emotion of a scene. 

[DabigRG]

I haven't listened to that Pizza Party interview just yet and possibly won't for another week, so I can only comment with what I know.

I actually recall doing an entire post about Pontaff and Graff's work with Sega months ago that I can always dig up to see how it might hold up.

Long story short, they ended up being pigeonholed by their winning pitch's positive reception and didn't quite know how to handle things going forward since they weren't really equipped for long-term involvement in the series and circumstances ended up getting tight.

[SBR2]

2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Was Sonic 06 the only game you played before Colors, because...

 

 

I don't really understand this complaint at all. Sonic is very clearly emotive and having fun in these cutscenes, so where is the idea that he was just a boring plank of wood with no personality coming from? So once again I ask, was Sonic 06 the only game you played before Colors?

First of all I've never played 06. Second of all I said most of the time. 

Like yes I'll admit that sometimes Sonic does actually give off his trademark attitude but it's so rare and far between in these games it's basically not noticeable. 

I honestly think the only games around this period that actually capture Sonic’s personality well are (unfortunately) Shadow The Hedgehog and Riders. In those games he feels like he both takes the situation seriously but also seeing something death defying makes him so excited he can't help but cheer.

Like yes SA2 starts with that enthusiasm but it never feels like he ever gets to where he is at the start again. Doesn't help that I personally don't care for the games tone but that's beside the point. 

[Kuzu]

14 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

First of all I've never played 06. Second of all I said most of the time. 

Like yes I'll admit that sometimes Sonic does actually give off his trademark attitude but it's so rare and far between in these games it's basically not noticeable. 

I honestly think the only games around this period that actually capture Sonic’s personality well are (unfortunately) Shadow The Hedgehog and Riders. In those games he feels like he both takes the situation seriously but also seeing something death defying makes him so excited he can't help but cheer.

Like yes SA2 starts with that enthusiasm but it never feels like he ever gets to where he is at the start again. Doesn't help that I personally don't care for the games tone but that's beside the point. 

Dude, that's literally three cutscenes from three separate games where Sonic is expressing himself; I could literally post more from the same games, and different ones as well but I'd be here all night. 

I honestly don't know what you even mean anymore. We've had Sonic crack jokes in all of the games in the 2000's, we've had Sonic have levity in the games from the 2000's.

So once, I am asking you...what specific examples are you referring to that are giving you the impression that Sonic was some boring plank of wood? Are you seriously trying to tell me right now that because Sonic isn't cracking constant jokes for one or two cutscenes that he's suddenly boring now? 

I understand everyone has their own personal preferences and all, but it genuinely feels like you're literally focusing on the stuff that you didn't like to justify this point regardless if its valid not. Do you just hate any scene where there's no humor at all and just judge the entire game on those one or two scenes? Does that seem like a fair assessment of the tone of these games to you?  

I don't like Colors all that much, and even I'm willing to give the game it's fair shake where it's due, so I don't understand why are you judging these games on the one or two scenes where there are no jokes, and then using that to say the entire game is just boring shlock. That's just so unfair.

[The Tenth Doctor]

6 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Dude, that's literally three cutscenes from three separate games where Sonic is expressing himself; I could literally post more from the same games, and different ones as well but I'd be here all night. 

I honestly don't know what you even mean anymore. We've had Sonic crack jokes in all of the games in the 2000's, we've had Sonic have levity in the games from the 2000's.

So once, I am asking you...what specific examples are you referring to that are giving you the impression that Sonic was some boring plank of wood? Are you seriously trying to tell me right now that because Sonic isn't cracking constant jokes for one or two cutscenes that he's suddenly boring now? 

I understand everyone has their own personal preferences and all, but it genuinely feels like you're literally focusing on the stuff that you didn't like to justify this point regardless if its valid not. Do you just hate any scene where there's no humor at all and just judge the entire game on those one or two scenes? Does that seem like a fair assessment of the tone of these games to you?  

I don't like Colors all that much, and even I'm willing to give the game it's fair shake where it's due, so I don't understand why are you judging these games on the one or two scenes where there are no jokes, and then using that to say the entire game is just boring shlock. That's just so unfair.

Gonna agree, Sonic was cracking jokes and being cocky in those games, noticably. Especially Heroes. Threatening letter, party time. Big cannon, jump into it. Thought to be dead hedgehog appears, invite on a date with Eggman. Giant robot dragon, yeah no worries for him. 

These may not have been overly funny but its him looking at the threat, susses it and acts accordingly. He was saving the world and loving it.

[DabigRG]

So guess what? I can't find the post I was talking.

 

Which is annoying, since while it may possibly not have had everything pertinent to the topic (Mr. Flynn's chamce at the script, for example), it was still a pretty well documented write-up that I likely spent a fair bit of interest and/or time putting together. I found a few things that either possess some of what I want to say or is simply interesting to rediscover, but still.

On 6/10/2019 at 2:26 PM, DabigRG said:

Which is an odd prospect considering Misters Pontac and Graff came up with the actual story, loosely based on what SEGA provided them about the Deadly Six. By that token, I'm still not sure who came up with the Extractor.

.

 

On 5/11/2019 at 1:10 AM, DabigRG said:

Okay,  so I was doing some research into Sonic Team's production of the games before Forces and discovered something: Lost World, which was said to be written by Ken Pontac and Warren Graff, also lists a Harumasa Nakajima for the story on the wiki. Who is he and what would he have done for the story? 

 

This applies to Colors as well, which cites Yasushi Otake. 

 

On 5/11/2019 at 1:22 AM, Razule said:

The Japanese versions.

 

On 5/11/2019 at 1:53 AM, DabigRG said:

Hm...I suppose that makes sense. 

Unfortunately, I also looked into Generations afterwards and discovered that they apparently did the whole kit and kaboodle there. 

So...what the fuck? 

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On 4/1/2019 at 9:43 PM, DabigRG said:

1. Lost World is actually Misters Pontac and Graff's greatest work thus far. It's the only game where they came up with the story, which includes the flawed characterization of Sonic and Tails. The only confirmed things they didn't come up with themselves were the Deadly Six and likely the Lost Hex. If anything, it highlights the notion that they "ran out of time" or otherwise weren't able to properly flesh out and resolve the story. Generations, on the otherhand, is their worst and it was by Sega's outline like their other games.  
2. Forces knew what it wanted to be alright--it just didn't put in much [cohesive and/or fleshed out] work into it, exposing it as fairly shallow.  @Kuzu the Boloedge
3. Sonic was probably the best thing in Forces's story. @Kuzu the Boloedge

 

On 1/24/2019 at 6:42 PM, DabigRG said:

 

 

I was referring to how they made the choice to study the characters as it were that time, but that is true too.

What's fascinating about Tails to me is that, likely a continuation from how they wrote Generations, they clearly did their research and just didn't have a good enough grasp on how Tails should emote. I mean, they technically drew from Riders, of all things.

Eh, it was a lot of being too different for some plus the carry over sentiment from Rise of Lyric.

But yeah, I really appreciated what that show was doing.

 

On 1/11/2019 at 8:31 PM, DabigRG said:

I meant to comment on this earlier, but my phone wouldn't let me:

Unfortunately, it largely comes from the fact that the Sonic series since 2010 has been relatively dense, wacky, and self-deprecating, including the Twitter page apparently. Now at first, this wasn't really bad thing, as the series had gone through such dark times(both in tone and in reception) that making things lighter for a change and having a laugh gave people who were fatigued some energy back; it doesn't hurt that a number of things that came out around that time were enjoyable and even good at first.

Then Lost World came out at the wrong time trending wise and RIse of Lyric got screwed up by executive meddling, leading to the attempts to slowly edge back into more dark and adventurous while mixing the current light-heartedness in yielding mixed to negative results. Some would say this started a new dark age for the series and many believe that not only is the more tongue in cheek & "safe" tones starting to wear out, but also makes them yearn for the previous generation of "risk, ambition, and taking things seriously."

So when Forces was being marketed, some of those people got excited because SEGA seemed to be really invoking a big story with stakes and other things reminiscent of the Dreamcast era again. But when the game ended up being disappointing, particularly with Misters Pontac & Graff still being somewhat involved in conjunction with still having some corny dialogue in places(something the Sonic games have almost always had, mind you), that just gave all the more excuse to complain about the characters not taking things seriously again.

In summation, the general lightheartedness of the games since Colors plus the underdeveloped stories and the people who were involved with it since then.

I think it's also some people wanting something else altogether, but that's a minor thing.

 

 

[Maxtiis]

Really feels like the past ten years since Sonic Generations released just had the franchise sort of bow out of the spotlight. Doesn't seem like Sonic has had as much of a presence as compared to the games prior to 2010. Maybe it's due to Pontac and Graff's writing presenting the series in a much more simplistic light along with Sega just releasing way less titles compared to the previous decade. I'm also not a fan of their writing just due to how less interesting it makes the games.

Just on the topic of "eras" within the Sonic franchise, it really does feel like there's a change occurring in it. I wonder if it has anything to do with the success of the movie. It's like Sega is dropping some old baggage in a manner of speaking. Nothing else to do but cross our fingers and pray that what's coming ends up being fun. For as cringe inducing as people consider it these days, I'm hoping they bring back some of Sonic's edge. Like azoo said, he feels too soft these days and while I appreciate him getting help from his friends because they bring a lot of character to the franchise, I miss that autonomy Sonic used to have.

[batson]

Not gonna lie, the idea of Pontac and Graff leaving fills me with joy.