Is Classic Sonic Tapped Out?

[Diogenes]

7 minutes ago, azoo said:

You can like the "classic" leaning artwork and style all you want, but the fragmented identity is the problem here, and there's really never been any point in it. 

That existed long before this formal classic/modern split and it will continue to exist long after it's gone.

[azoo]

Sure, but do you think I care about what purists, or people who generally take those strong of sides think? When we can be doing so much better than that? 

[Natie]

3 minutes ago, azoo said:

It was a design brought in alongside a different art direction, that much I've acknowledged. But Sonic has never been terribly consistent in art direction, even in the classic games (1 does not look like 2, neither look like CD, and none of them look like 3K either). Sonic also spent a lot of time in that era changing design to be lankier and show more "cool" personality traits as well.

Sonic has always had an evolving, transforming art direction to suit whatever era it is headed to next. The idea of a "modern Sonic" is just one of the many he went through, as Sonic has many times varied since he donned green eyes and grey soles too, hence my point earlier. Trying to split Sonic into these eras simplifies and boxes in the subject so much that it's not really a fair assessment to call one of these looks definitive to the era as much as one of many variances.

It should be clear that the two designs are the most compared because "modern" Sonic saw the biggest jump, not just in character design either. Considerably more noticeable than "slightly darker blue sprite from Sonic 2", and intentionally so. 

My reason for rebuttal is that I think the sentiment that the SA1 redesign is nothing more than a tiny little natural step forward just like the slight changes before and it's directly comparable to Mario gaining 2 inches in 1990 is a pretty silly oversimplification.

10 minutes ago, azoo said:

Which brings me to my ultimate point: none of this matters. We don't need a classic Sonic aesthetic to be separate from the modern, we don't need narrative or characters to be either. What are we gaining from this other than making the people comfortable who are insecure for liking games they consider themselves unassociated with?

You can like the "classic" leaning artwork and style all you want, but the fragmented identity is the problem here, and there's really never been any point in it. 

I want you to know I completely agree with this. The best things about both eras should be organically integrated together, I think SA1 struck the greatest balance in a lot of places. Even ignoring my personal nitpicks about simplification and less-is-more character design (I'll even bitch about stuff like how Yoshi's nose is rendered, just being a person really passionate about character design), it's undeniably a better choice to be what games like SA1 and Sonic Advance were comfortable being, a much more unified brand. 

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

This question is amusing to me. I could ask the exact same question about "modern sonic". What has the modern sonic design, beyond the specific character, done to earn it's keep? What amazing, industry impacting titles has it birthed since 1998 that would convince anyone more than his most diehard advocates that he needs to exist? What even IS the modern sonic design?! No one can answer that question because it's a mix of about a dozen different things that are done much better and associated with other franchises, from the final fantasy esque era of the mid 2000s, to the pixar style of early 2010s, to the mario clone in sonic lost world. Modern sonic couldn't describe itself if it tried, it has tried to be so many things and changes every other year because none of them stick. And for some reason this point doesn't really get across to many fans who wonder why the series success never catches fire like it once did. 

I have witnessed every era of this franchise and "classic" sonic or how he was portrayed in the 1990s. #1, he's a lot more versatile than younger fans give him credit for, and it's absurd to pretend otherwise. If you weren't alive in the 90s, or were just a toddler....for crying out loud, his friggin face was plastered everywhere in the known world to a degree that modern sonic has not come close to, in every form of media. And he had tons of spinoffs and stories outside the games as well.

#2 There is no reason whatsoever that classic sonic cannot do both 2d and 3d games, just as his modern version has done. None. Since sonic adventure, younger fans have naturally taken ownership of the 3d titles without really thinking about an alternative because it's what they grew up with. I'm going to tell you something: if classic sonic came out with a banging 3d title that created a similar feeling to the originals, there would be no need for modern sonic. Period. 

 

This is just a point I'm making, not something I'm advocating for. I'm not anti modern and I fully expect modern to continue on and I'm completely fine with it. To be honest, I don't see a major difference in sonic actual model design between sonic 3 and sonic adventure 1, at least in game. To me they're the same. The difference is in the other details like the universe and in that area classic sonic wins by a landslide imo. His specific worlds are far more unique, interesting, and iconic but there really isn't a reason you couldnt for an occasional game put him in a slightly more "realistic" setting, like adventure 1 did. In fact, that was the exact idea before sega thought they needed to give the character a tad more "edge". Not my words by the way.

 

The classic aesthetic is certainly a more specific thing since it's generally more focused but within that style there was quite a lot of creativity and most importantly consistency. Mario does get some flak for remaining too conservative at times, but given the state of the two franchises, anyone would have to admit sonic isn't anywhere near mario in terms of quality and reputation and that has almost everything to do with it. Nintendo understood with their golden boy that just because one CAN do something doesn't mean they should. Sonic could take a lot of lessons from mario. I'm sorry but I have to immediately dismiss arguments that ignore that reality.

 

So no, classic sonic is not somehow handicapped or limited compared to modern; Modern tries way too much shit, that's his problem. I think many of you have this idea that classic = 2d and green hill zone and it always has to be exactly that and that's wrong. Sure there's a lot of what one would call an actual "identity", something this franchise hasn't known in decades, but there is also just a character that is in general popular with kids and adults, can be used to market in all forms of media, and has lasting appeal.

[Kuzu]

4 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

This question is amusing to me. I could ask the exact same question about "modern sonic". What has the modern sonic design, beyond the specific character, done to earn it's keep? What amazing, industry impacting titles has it birthed since 1998 that would convince anyone more than his most diehard advocates that he needs to exist? What even IS the modern sonic design?! No one can answer that question because it's a mix of about a dozen different things that are done much better and associated with other franchises, from the final fantasy esque era of the mid 2000s, to the pixar style of early 2010s, to the mario clone in sonic lost world. Modern sonic couldn't describe itself if it tried, it has tried to be so many things and changes every other year because none of them stick. And for some reason this point doesn't really get across to many fans who wonder why the series success never catches fire like it once did. 

I have witnessed every era of this franchise and "classic" sonic or how he was portrayed in the 1990s. #1, he's a lot more versatile than younger fans give him credit for, and it's absurd to pretend otherwise. If you weren't alive in the 90s, or were just a toddler....for crying out loud, his friggin face was plastered everywhere in the known world to a degree that modern sonic has not come close to, in every form of media. And he had tons of spinoffs and stories outside the games as well.

#2 There is no reason whatsoever that classic sonic cannot do both 2d and 3d games, just as his modern version has done. None. Since sonic adventure, younger fans have naturally taken ownership of the 3d titles without really thinking about an alternative because it's what they grew up with. I'm going to tell you something: if classic sonic came out with a banging 3d title that created a similar feeling to the originals, there would be no need for modern sonic. Period. 

 

This is just a point I'm making, not something I'm advocating for. I'm not anti modern and I fully expect modern to continue on and I'm completely fine with it. To be honest, I don't see a major difference in sonic actual model design between sonic 3 and sonic adventure 1, at least in game. To me they're the same. The difference is in the other details like the universe and in that area classic sonic wins by a landslide imo. His specific worlds are far more unique, interesting, and iconic but there really isn't a reason you couldnt for an occasional game put him in a slightly more "realistic" setting, like adventure 1 did. In fact, that was the exact idea before sega thought they needed to give the character a tad more "edge". Not my words by the way.

 

The classic aesthetic is certainly a more specific thing since it's generally more focused but within that style there was quite a lot of creativity and most importantly consistency. Mario does get some flak for remaining too conservative at times, but given the state of the two franchises, anyone would have to admit sonic isn't anywhere near mario in terms of quality and reputation and that has almost everything to do with it. Nintendo understood with their golden boy that just because one CAN do something doesn't mean they should. Sonic could take a lot of lessons from mario. I'm sorry but I have to immediately dismiss arguments that ignore that reality.

 

So no, classic sonic is not somehow handicapped or limited compared to modern; Modern tries way too much shit, that's his problem. I think many of you have this idea that classic = 2d and green hill zone and it always has to be exactly that and that's wrong. Sure there's a lot of what one would call an actual "identity", something this franchise hasn't known in decades, but there is also just a character that is in general popular with kids and adults, can be used to market in all forms of media, and has lasting appeal.

Literally nobody has said anything you're accusing them off at all.

 

Sonic is Sonic my dude. The only people who make a huge ass stink about it are people who are upset that the reputation of the series has fallen off and trying to attribute that to the design shift.

Almost everyone in this thread sees Classic as just a design and nothing else, so why are you intentionally trying to frame this like a "classic vs. Modern" debate. This is exactly "Green eyes" because such a meme, because Sonic fans are so insane that that they have to make a big deal out of minor details that the average person wouldn't care about.

 

Sonic is Sonic my dude.

[Wittymations]

I've personally been tired of the classic stuff for nearly the full decade. It was fun in Generations but I've quickly became tired of it finding its way back into new games.

Tired of Green Hill, tired of 2D interrupting my 3D games, tired of the Classic Sonic character. Tired of it all.

I wouldn't mind it so much if it were just treated as its own series for handheld or something. But it constantly creeps its way into the main series going "Look! Look! Remember Sonic 1? Remember the good old days? We're sorry. We're very sorry." It's exhausting.

[Speedi]

7 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

This question is amusing to me. I could ask the exact same question about "modern sonic". What has the modern sonic design, beyond the specific character, done to earn it's keep? What amazing, industry impacting titles has it birthed since 1998 that would convince anyone more than his most diehard advocates that he needs to exist? What even IS the modern sonic design?! No one can answer that question because it's a mix of about a dozen different things that are done much better and associated with other franchises, from the final fantasy esque era of the mid 2000s, to the pixar style of early 2010s, to the mario clone in sonic lost world. Modern sonic couldn't describe itself if it tried, it has tried to be so many things and changes every other year because none of them stick. And for some reason this point doesn't really get across to many fans who wonder why the series success never catches fire like it once did. 

I have witnessed every era of this franchise and "classic" sonic or how he was portrayed in the 1990s. #1, he's a lot more versatile than younger fans give him credit for, and it's absurd to pretend otherwise. If you weren't alive in the 90s, or were just a toddler....for crying out loud, his friggin face was plastered everywhere in the known world to a degree that modern sonic has not come close to, in every form of media. And he had tons of spinoffs and stories outside the games as well.

#2 There is no reason whatsoever that classic sonic cannot do both 2d and 3d games, just as his modern version has done. None. Since sonic adventure, younger fans have naturally taken ownership of the 3d titles without really thinking about an alternative because it's what they grew up with. I'm going to tell you something: if classic sonic came out with a banging 3d title that created a similar feeling to the originals, there would be no need for modern sonic. Period. 

 

This is just a point I'm making, not something I'm advocating for. I'm not anti modern and I fully expect modern to continue on and I'm completely fine with it. To be honest, I don't see a major difference in sonic actual model design between sonic 3 and sonic adventure 1, at least in game. To me they're the same. The difference is in the other details like the universe and in that area classic sonic wins by a landslide imo. His specific worlds are far more unique, interesting, and iconic but there really isn't a reason you couldnt for an occasional game put him in a slightly more "realistic" setting, like adventure 1 did. In fact, that was the exact idea before sega thought they needed to give the character a tad more "edge". Not my words by the way.

 

The classic aesthetic is certainly a more specific thing since it's generally more focused but within that style there was quite a lot of creativity and most importantly consistency. Mario does get some flak for remaining too conservative at times, but given the state of the two franchises, anyone would have to admit sonic isn't anywhere near mario in terms of quality and reputation and that has almost everything to do with it. Nintendo understood with their golden boy that just because one CAN do something doesn't mean they should. Sonic could take a lot of lessons from mario. I'm sorry but I have to immediately dismiss arguments that ignore that reality.

 

So no, classic sonic is not somehow handicapped or limited compared to modern; Modern tries way too much shit, that's his problem. I think many of you have this idea that classic = 2d and green hill zone and it always has to be exactly that and that's wrong. Sure there's a lot of what one would call an actual "identity", something this franchise hasn't known in decades, but there is also just a character that is in general popular with kids and adults, can be used to market in all forms of media, and has lasting appeal.

Couldn't it also be argued that classic sonic has had just as much experimentation as modern sonic did while he was still a focus? I don't really think it's fair to say that Modern has experimented too much when the Sonic has ALWAYS been getting shoved into racing games. pinball games, educational games and hell even a couple attempts at "3D" games since wayyy before Adventure was a concept.

And for myself at least. When I say Classic Sonic is running low on potential I'm talking about from the perspective that Sega themselves seem adamant to keep him stuck to the momentum based 2D gameplay in every game he's appeared in since generations. I'm not going to blame people for thinking classic's hit the ceiling when Sega refuse to let him evolve past his genesis gameplay anymore. 

[Kuzu]

1 hour ago, Natie said:

So, no. Not literally the same. I wasn't even referring to that drawing anyway, I was replying to him saying it looks like how Sonic looks in Lost World and Forces, which is even more different. I know not everyone's got an eye for his kinda thing but let's not be silly.

This is nitpicking my dude, no average person would care about this at all.

[Natie]

8 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Literally nobody has said anything you're accusing them off at all.

Nobody at all? I've certainly seen that stuff all over twitter,

[Kuzu]

1 minute ago, Natie said:

Nobody at all? I've certainly seen that stuff all over twitter,

Twitter is also filled with a lot of dumbasses.

[expansivelovestories]

All in all, I am hopeful that pixel art Sonic games will continue to happen!!  the silence about whether one has been in development to be released this year is understandable, starting with the absolute fact that if there is one there is also a non-disclosure agreement, but then even moreso, the sudden appearance helped allow Sonic Mania to generate as lasting enthusiasm as it did, coming completely out of nowhere, except to those few people in the know!! 

 

[Wittymations]

I do think the vast majority of players wouldn't care for mild differences between Classic and Modern Sonic designs. "True fans" would, of course.

I know I didn't notice a difference as a kid playing Adventure for the first time.

[Natie]

3 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

This is nitpicking my dude, no average person would care about this at all.

"I don't care so nobody else does"

Except for the fact that the design has been fought for and against for years and the fact that this thread exists at all. If I were Yuji Eukawa, designing a new Sonic for a new age as was tasked of him and several others, I'd certainly think the intentional changes I was drawing mattered.

You said they were "literally the same", I spelled out why they aren't, and you went "who cares". These lazy retorts aren't gonna do anything for the discussion. If you're simply exhausted with the topic, then don't reply at all.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Unsurprisingly for someone who prefers Adventure/Modern - yes - I absolutely do think it's time he was tapped out.

And don't get me wrong - I don't mean "no mania, no mania 2, no classic sonic games!!" - I'm totally fine with that, Mania is actually the only Classic game I like along with S3&K, and I don't mind having Classic's formula having it's own games/artstyle for merchandise, but I am beyond sick of the damage SEGA's attempts to pander to him has caused to this franchise.

He was a nice novelty in Generations. He wasn't 1:1 with the classic games, and I vastly preferred Modern's stages, but he was fun enough to play, and even when he showed up in Runners on Sonic's birthday, it was like "Oh hey, neat! They're embracing all sides of the series for this smaller game!", but Forces and Mania has just caused irrepairable damage to this series IMO. It's enabled elitist attitudes from both reviewers and fans who think only Classic has a right to exist, while also splintering the absolute hell out of the canon.

For a start, Classic is just a horrendous addition to Forces. He doesn't play remotely well, he has no in-story purpose for being there, he exists as a massive retcon to Generations, his levels are nothing but a total drudge to play through, his music is horrid attempts at trying to recapture the Genesis soundtrack, and considering that it came only months after Mania was the love letter to Classic Sonic, it only exists as a measure that pleases no one. No Classic fan is going to be happy with this godawful gimped version of Classic, especially when Mania and even Gens handled him vastly better, and Modern fans aren't happy that Classic's shitty gameplay has taken away resources and time that could have gone into the bare-bones Modern/Avatar gameplay. 

Then there's the enabling from people who just wants to meme and say Modern is shit and should never have existed - because by making Classic a "alternative universe Sonic", not only does it just mean SEGA can say "OK here - this Sonic has no bad stuff associated with him! It's just the games you guys love!!", but it also completely breaks any sense of continuity that this series has had. At best, we can assume S1-3K happened in some shape and that's it.  

The thing that frustrates me the most however is the effect Classic has had on SEGA's mandates and policies. I hate how Classic characters have been locked off behind a sub-series that SEGA won't give full dedication to, and I hate how similarly - Modern characters have been gated off from Classic. Why on god's earth is that a thing? 

So now - characters like Bean, Bark, Nack, Mighty, and Ray are completely locked off from stuff like IDW Sonic and hell - any Modern title, let it be game, comic, TV Show, movie, or what have you - despite the fact that Ian Flynn was literally the only one keeping those five alive and well-liked in Archie for a long time until Mania finally brought them back. And it goes both ways - now we can't ever see Classic iterations of the Modern characters as well that might've been fun to see.

Characters like Blaze, Shadow, Cream, Silver, Omega, Rouge - hell - generally anyone who could have a fun appearance in a Classic series, even as a fun surprise like Nack and co's boss fight in Mania was - that can't ever happen, all because SEGA have just put down this stupid arbitrary lockdown on who can appear in what.

Hell, what about the Chaotix? They're very much a special case because they appear in the Classic series, but in Heroes, they're practically different characters! Even early interviews basically said "it's best to not think of these as the characters from Knuckles' Chaotix, but rather think of them as reinvented characters based on those characters". Alright, so does that mean the Chaotix isn't allowed in Classic anymore? We've seen them in IDW and Modern titles, so are they now clearly defined as Modern characters who're disallowed from Classic? Do they fall under the same category as Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and co? If they appear, will they be in their 32-bit designs/personalities/backstories, despite them being heavily different from the Heroes versions (IE - Charmy's a teen instead of a kid in Chaotix)? Why are these questions even required??

Crash Bandicoot very recently went through the exact same concerns. Crash 4 was a game that essentially retconned the majority of the series out of existence, as it was a direct sequel to Crash 3, and ignored everything else. People were concerned it was going to lead to the same thing - that post Naughty Dog titles would be entirely ignored for everything they did - good and bad, and apart from a few jabs, that would be it.

Except nope - Toys for Bob - despite placing it before Wrath of Cortex - actually made an effort to pay homage, and acknowledge everything that came from post Naughty Dog. It's implied they still exist via alternative timelines - or hell - that they could still happen later on down the line. Several post Naughty Dog characters get either straight up references - or even full-on appearances! Crunch has several references on N. Sanity Island, right as soon as you start the game off, the Evil Twins make their first appearance since 2004! Hell, even Nina shows up in one of the secret endings competing against Coco! N. Trance, Chuck and Stew, hell even Zem appears! Even though Crash 4 technically does the same thing as placing out a chunk of characters, it doesn't just straight up try to gate them off or pretend that the later games don't exist anymore, it feels respectful for lack of a better term.

I'm not against Classic, I'm not even against the Classic artstyle or gameplay, I'm just sick, sore and tired of the negative effect it has on the franchise, and it's all SEGA's fault. They caused this situation. They're intentionally introduced a hard division in the fanbase, and splintered off the entire continuity, locking away who can be used where and when, and completely wrecking Sonic's history for the sake of saying "no no no its all good, classic sonic doesn't kiss a princess or turn into a werehog! it's safe to like us, don't worry!!!". 

At the end of the day - to me, there should just be Sonic, and that's it. Nothing more, nothing less. If you want to do Classic games like Mania, then do them. If you want to have Modern games, then do them. But they should all be apart of the character, the franchise, and it's history, not just locked off to split Classic Sonic off from the "bad" stuff, while causing massive damage to the series as a result.

[Iko]

Wathever, IMO Classic Sonic should just be a character design and treated as such. Not even a gameplay, just a visual style.

For exmple, Sonic Lost World tries so bad to look like a classic Sonic game (to the point where the graphics are even more simplified than they were in the source material, as if the developers were obsessed by the thing that classic games were more cartoony and "cuter", and had more visual patterns on the textures such as the iconic checker tiles, etc). If the characters were also using their classic design, I would call it a proper Classic Sonic game, one with a different gameplay in the vein of Flickies' Island, but still a classic-styled game. I definitely think that Lost World should have had the classic designs for the characters because they fit better in the context of the game.

Classic Sonic should not even be a gameplay. Sonic should have momentum based gameplay and accurate rolling physics regardless of it being classic or modern, unless it's a spin-off and the gameplay is different at its core.

EDIT: I know that I have already said this, but I wanted to bring in the Sonic Lost World example for those people who said that they want to see new Classic Sonic games experimenting and innovating. I think that Lost World is exactly that, except for the character design of the antros. Even the little animals have their classic designs, everything screams "classic" in that game, so should we really consider it as a modern game only because it has the modern sonic model and physics are weird? Because not every classic sonic game had those momentum based physics, I said Flickies' Island because it had a much different gameplay and loops were scripted, be it for hardware limitations or by design, it was a completely different game from the main trilogy, yet still considered a "Classic Sonic" game.

At this point I'm not even sure anymore about what even IS the difference between Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic, maybe it's nothing more than gatekeeping some elements from being in one game or another. And I'm back at repeating the same thing over and over, because there's really not much to add; as some other people have said before, Sonic is Sonic.

[Scritch the Cat]

6 hours ago, Indigo Rush said:

 

So, a certain status update around here as well as a tweet thread (that I can't find right now) got me thinking about this. About ten years ago, this site lost it's collective hivemind when "Classic" Sonic popped into focus alongside "Modern" Sonic to announce the celebration of Sonic's 20th Anniversary. Sonic fans cried. No, literally, some of you posted about how emotional this made y'all. No shame in it, my jaw dropped too! 

Ten years later, we've gotten Sonic Mania and a whole smorgasbord of Classic-esque fangames and proofs of concept to toy around in, and the argument has arisen that the Classic Sonic universe (in terms of gameplay and world-building) is effectively tapped out. What exactly does this mean? It may depend on who you ask, but the main argument I've heard is that aside from new levels and perhaps reintroducing classic era characters, there's not much more that can be done for a new game that wouldn't involve pushing that branch of the series beyond the tenants of "Classic Sonic", whatever those tenants are.

 

I'd say the most objective tenants of Classic Sonic are its character designs and abilities.  Being 2D isn't necessarily a tenant of the Classic Sonic series since 2D Sonic games never actually went away.  Even while 3D Sonic was the headliner, there were Sonic Pocket Adventure, the Sonic Advance series, the Sonic Rush series, the Sonic Rivals series, the handheld versions of 3D console Sonic games, and even those 3D Sonic games were 2D for large portions.  If Sonic 4 was widely regarded as a swing and a miss at recreating Classic Sonic, Sonic Generations was widely regarded as a flawed but conceptually accurate revival, and Sonic Mania was widely regarded as when they nailed it mechanically.  What seem to be hallmarks of true Classic Sonic are the same character proportions and abilities as were in the Genesis games.  Some abilities can be added but other branches of Sonic aren't what dictate which abilities to add. 

[Kuzu]

9 minutes ago, Natie said:

"I don't care so nobody else does"

Except for the fact that the design has been fought for and against for years and the fact that this thread exists at all. If I were Yuji Eukawa, designing a new Sonic for a new age as was tasked of him and several others, I'd certainly think the intentional changes I was drawing mattered.

You said they were "literally the same", I spelled out why they aren't, and you went "who cares". These lazy retorts aren't gonna do anything for the discussion. If you're simply exhausted with the topic, then don't reply at all.

And as I pointed out, Sonic fans are insane and constantly nitpick stuff like this.

The design retains everything about Sonic that makes him recognizable, with no added details that detracts from that.  As pointed out, it's like arguing red overalls Mario is a different design from blue overalls Mario; if you tried to sell that as an actual argument the same way Sonic fans do with Classic and Modern, nobody would take it seriously at all.

 

The ONLY reason anybody even takes this argument seriously about Classic and Modern is because Sega keep validating these nonsensical claims with their haphazard decisions for the series. Had Classic never came back at all in Generations and if Sonic 4 didn't exist, we wouldn't even be having this discussion because before those games, the only ones who cared were the fans that became upset the way the series was headed and attributed it to the design, but the difference is that nobody took them seriously and they were rightfully ignored.

 

 

[Scritch the Cat]

6 hours ago, Indigo Rush said:

 Given this perspective, what else can be done with Classic Sonic either as a character, a game or a story? At what point are we pushing things too far?

I do think there's more that can be added to the series while not removing its distinction as Classic Sonic.  The Classic designs of the Chaotix can be added as playable characters--fuck the mandates--and I feel that because super forms are often game-breaking, it would be neat to have more post-game content designed with the assumption that it'll be played in super forms. 

As to when we're pushing things too far, I'd say its when new things are added that make old things obsolete.  Boost and the Wisps should stay out of Classic Sonic because both enable things that previously required some sacrifice.  Going up a wall used to demand you either built up enough speed with Sonic or switched to Tails or Knuckles, which made it easier but also led to the loss of Sonic's abilities.  Boost makes it so much easier to gain any speed you need that those are no longer issues.  Likewise, since Boost is also an attack it removes the strategy of juggling running and rolling, since both of those have both advantages and drawbacks but Boost really has no drawbacks.  It doesn't force players to choose between more speed (unless they're going downhill) and more defense.  As to Wisps, they've been officially stated as added to the series just so playing as Tails and Knuckles was no longer necessary to incorporate additional mechanics like flight and digging.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 hour ago, Natie said:

Well, technically, that IS still a matter of preference, but it's just people aren't being mature about it. Taking other people's entertainment opinions too personally is pretty much a benchmark of the internet. I agree it would be better to be pals about it, but people acting stupid doesnt make it any less valid or normal to have opinions and preferences.

Again, it’s not the preference that’s the problem—this would be a whole different discussion if that were the case.

It’s the petty spite, and I couldn’t care less how normal it is for people to have opinions and preferences when it comes to that. That it’s done on the Internet only makes it even worse due to there being little in the way of consequences depending on where one goes to express it.

For all the preferences people have, hardly any other franchise has people throwing tantrums over dumb shit like eye colors like this fandom has.

[Natie]

3 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

And as I pointed out, Sonic fans are insane and constantly nitpick stuff like this.

The design retains everything about Sonic that makes him recognizable, with no added details that detracts from that.  As pointed out, it's like arguing red overalls Mario is a different design from blue overalls Mario; if you tried to sell that as an actual argument the same way Sonic fans do with Classic and Modern, nobody would take it seriously at all.

 

The ONLY reason anybody even takes this argument seriously about Classic and Modern is because Sega keep validating these nonsensical claims with their haphazard decisions for the series. Had Classic never came back at all in Generations and if Sonic 4 didn't exist, we wouldn't even be having this discussion because before those games, the only ones who cared were the fans that became upset the way the series was headed and attributed it to the design, but the difference is that nobody took them seriously and they were rightfully ignored.

 

 

You seem to be declaring everything from your perspective as historically accurate.

How come there were forums discussing people's gripes with the new direction as far back as the dreamcast era? Why do I hear people who aren't Sonic fans in youtube videos looking from outside saying "how come they stopped drawing him all cute?". Why did kids I was babysitting as a teen prefer to play my newer Sonic games rather than my older ones because he "looks cooler"?

It is because there are plenty of people out there who are observant enough to tell the difference between art styles, and MAYBE EVEN  like one more than the other. That isn't exactly "insane".

Not trying to call you blind to style or anything, because I know you know the difference. This whole "They're exactly the same!" shtick is a disingenuous excuse from people to stamp out the arguments over style by claiming there was never an argument to be had.

Sorry, that isn't going to work. Just cuz a problem sucks, doesn't mean pretending it's not there is a good choice.

[Scritch the Cat]

6 hours ago, Indigo Rush said:

Sonic Mania is generally seen as a true classic era game in spirit, yet you'll find no shortage of complaints over the reuse of old stages or the choice to stick to pixel graphics. Is a 3D modelled side-scroller in the vain of New Super Mario Bros or Donkey Kong Country Returns acceptable or not?

Sure.  But it wouldn't be the novelty that sprited graphics are since 3D graphics are what Classic Sonic uses whenever he's in the main series and spin-offs.  And I feel novelty is important.  At the time the first New Super Mario Bros came out, it was widely embraced because the world both had a long break from Classic Mario 2D and because there had never been a Classic 2D Mario game that used 3D graphics yet.  However, later entries in the New Super Mario Bros line have lost any sense of novelty.  Likewise, Donkey Kong Country Returns was a big deal because it brought DK back to doing what many people felt it should, after a long succession of strange experiments, but by the time of the sequel it was more and more common to nitpick the choices Retro Studios made on the series.  I personally will thank Retro Studios for bringing back DKC at all but I otherwise am a pretty big detractor of its take on the series and I hope the next DK game is made by someone else entirely.

6 hours ago, Indigo Rush said:

Can we never return to Green Hill, or do we have to have some kind of callback in each game?

Callbacks to Green Hill Zone have been in numerous Sonic games even before Sonic got his redesign by Yuji Uekawa that led to Classic Sonic being seen as a separate series.  As in, even Sonic the Hedgehog 2 had one.  I won't say that means every game needs a callback, but I'm personally less bothered by those callbacks than I am by how relatively few things are being called back to and how frequently.  For example, not only had Green Hill and Chemical Plant Zone already been called back to in Sonic Generations, they were the first and second levels in that game and Sonic Mania didn't even vary that sequence.  Having said that, I think Sonic Mania revisits levels in the best way I've ever seen; it makes seemingly little changes that have huge effects on how levels play, and personally I find that great.  I also enjoy game worlds that have consistency, so it's not as big an issue to me as to many others that SM revisits so many locations.  Still, more new levels are welcome just to see new sprites in the style of the series but with higher quality than on Genesis.

6 hours ago, Indigo Rush said:

 Was the addition of the drop-dash good (yes) or did it change the formula in a negative way (no),

Agreed; I love the drop dash.  It lets Sonic have his own use for very vertical terrain that previously made Tails and Knuckles outshine him.  Keep it.

[Scritch the Cat]

6 hours ago, Indigo Rush said:

or should we give Classic Sonic a homing attack to shake things up (NO)?
 

Homing Attack wouldn't break the formula nearly as much as Boost would, but it's just not the quality of life addition in 2D that it is in 3D.  Enemies are already so much easier to hit in 2D, since you can't pass them on the right or left, that a homing attack isn't really an important addition.  I'd say don't add it, but I certainly wouldn't refuse to buy a Classic Sonic game if they did.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Literally nobody has said anything you're accusing them off at all.

 

Sonic is Sonic my dude. The only people who make a huge ass stink about it are people who are upset that the reputation of the series has fallen off and trying to attribute that to the design shift.

Almost everyone in this thread sees Classic as just a design and nothing else, so why are you intentionally trying to frame this like a "classic vs. Modern" debate. This is exactly "Green eyes" because such a meme, because Sonic fans are so insane that that they have to make a big deal out of minor details that the average person wouldn't care about.

 

Sonic is Sonic my dude.

This thread OP is about the classic character design. I'm responding to that specific thing. I don't think there's a major difference between the two designs except for some iterations of modern in the mid 2000s and later. The primary difference between the two is in the general world design focus (and tone) of the series in their eras and that's what I'm talking about. The character model is also associated with that time, so it's relevant in that regard.

Why does the lanky green eyed version, with all of the different styles he's attempted and failed for 20 years running, get a pass? Please understand I don't give a rats arse about the eye color, it meant nothing to me in 1998 and it doesn't now. However, if we were going to choose one based on strength and versatility, then why would it automatically need to be modern? This is just an argument for the sake of this conversation. I'm not even advocating for this because SA1 version is arguably my favorite in the entire series. I'm just making an argument that this era of identity loss and throwing stuff at the wall should require a second, third, fourth, and fifth look by now lol. Seriously man. This series needs focus like fish need water, my god, where are we now that we haven't figured this out yet? I think in a timeline where sega decided to ride with classic sonic as the focus for a few years, meaning the design of the character and the style of world that he comes with, and they actually had a gameplan for the character in 2d and 3d....can anyone really suggest that'd be somehow worse than with the modern version? That's all I'm saying, think about that. 

OP is suggesting that the classic model doesn't need to exist because modern can do everything he does. I'm saying, well can't that be flipped around to modern, especially if the top brass in management decided they wanted to focus a bit more? There are a lot of people that prefer the classic design over modern as well. Just a thought.

[Scritch the Cat]

6 hours ago, Indigo Rush said:

I guess Classic Sonic was sort of seen as a beacon of hope to pick apart what was going on with Sonic at the time? I felt that. Thing is, the design of Sonic shouldn't have had any bearing on gameplay. There's nothing inherently wrong with the Modern Sonic design; it's all association, which is subjective. Again, Sonic Advance was hitting many of the right targets for a genuine retro Sonic experience, and that featured green-eyed lanky leg Sonic. Sonic Mania could have easily featured Modern Sonic and still play the exact same and be just as objectively good... but it wouldn't have been as loved without that pudgy, adorably smarmy git. 

With that all said......

..... I don't think "Classic Sonic" needs to be anything more than an alternate skin at this point. There's talk about the unnecessary division of the franchise and while a part of me is fine with there being a separate "universe" of just Classic Sonic themed worlds, levels, characters and gameplay, I don't know if that's what's best for the franchise moving forward. The real issues aren't about the design of Sonic but the way the games are crafted, the gameplay, the level design, the worldbuilding: nothing about Classic Sonic as a design or character is going to inherently make the game better or worse. Turning Classic Sonic into a separate entity may have been one of the worst well-intentioned mistakes that SEGA has made, and I can't believe I'm saying that ten years after praising the Good Lord for the existence of our black-eyed baby bouncing blue boy.

I'm going to disagree there.  Sure; history and association are likely coloring this but I feel the two designs actually do a good job alluding to their distinct gameplay.  Modern Sonic's longer legs allude to how more of his gameplay is focused on running; he can still roll (sometimes) but when he has the boost to both accelerate him and attack, going to a ball is less necessary.  Meanwhile Classic Sonic's shorter legs point to his inability to gain as much speed (let alone damage enemies) from his legs alone, while his more rotund design feels more natural to ball up, which fits how Sonic balls up to accelerate by spin-dashing, drop-dashing and rolling down hills.  Those might be minor technicalities in any game that has only one Sonic playable, but when it's both and they play differently, I think their looking different definitely adds to the appeal.

[sexysonicfan100]

2 hours ago, Natie said:

So, no. Not literally the same. I wasn't even referring to that drawing anyway, I was replying to him saying it looks like how Sonic looks in Lost World and Forces, which is even more different. I know not everyone's got an eye for his kinda thing but let's not be silly.

Well, technically, that IS still a matter of preference, but it's just people aren't being mature about it. Taking other people's entertainment opinions too personally is pretty much a benchmark of the internet. I agree it would be better to be pals about it, but people acting stupid doesnt make it any less valid or normal to have opinions and preferences.

Well as I see here I guess you're saying THESE are the exact same thing! and you would be right! I guess all sonic designs can truly be used for ANYTHING ever!