Is Classic Sonic Tapped Out?

[Big-C]

3 hours ago, Natie said:

I don't know where you were during the build up to launch but the designs and aesthetic were one of the biggest draws.

That’s true, but that’s not the point I’m trying to make here. Whether they used the Classic designs or not, Mania would still be a commercial success just like any other Sonic game.

Edited February 9, 2021 by Big-C
Rewording

[Speedi]

14 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

OP is suggesting that the classic model doesn't need to exist because modern can do everything he does. I'm saying, well can't that be flipped around to modern, especially if the top brass in management decided they wanted to focus a bit more? There are a lot of people that prefer the classic design over modern as well. Just a thought.

I mean you're not wrong but... is that really a conversation worth having? Adventure was an evolution of what Sonic had been up until that point, that's why the overhaul to the artstyle exists. Going back to the classic aesthetic just because you CAN seems really pointless with that knowledge in mind imo. I'm not saying Sonic couldn't have evolved with a less drastic overhaul to the world and characters, but at this point we can't go back and time to make that happen so I just don't get the value of a discussion like that.

[Wraith]

Classic Sonic should never stop influencing the series to some degree, but you have to be flexible if you want to pilot a brand into selling 2-3 million copies reliably. Nintendo's conservative approach with Mario isn't the only way to go about things and honestly there are far more examples of franchises that regularly retool themselves to stay relevant than there are Marios. This type of thing always leads to splintering among fans but I really wish people would realize how normal this is. There's an ongoing debate in the Zelda community about the open style, Resident Evil has been dealing with pushback from mechanical and stylistic changes for years and still clipping ahead confidently etc.  Timeless gameplay systems can survive many different remixes and retoolings both to it's core and to the "wrapping" like the story and artstyle. You're never going to keep everyone on board so you shouldn't fret so much about it. The Classic "bubble" they trying to create represents them going hard in the opposite direction and worrying way too much about it imo.

Sonic Team may have handled to franchise in a devil-may-care fashion before, and that wasn't great, but they've gone hard in the opposite direction and take too many notes from commentators on what to do next. Most of the Sonic/wider game community aren't professional game designers or artists as much as some of them might think otherwise. It's fine to have a pulse on what they're thinking and adjust based on that, but most people aren't creators and thus don't have an imagination beyond what came before. These narrow minded fanbases just huddling into echo chambers are where purism comes from and Sonic the Hedgehog is probably one of the best examples of how damaging pandering this type of crowd can be. A lot of bizarre restrictions are now placed on the games that seem tailor-made for this crowd, but almost every actual problem that requires something beyond a surface level glance to see has gone under the radar scott free. A lot of it is still under-discussed in a lot of community content imo. Sonic games are still basically a bunch of setpieces duct taped together without any of the player agency and control of the original titles, but at least he's not holding a gun now. 


Since 2008 the franchise has, tonally, worldbuilding wise or whatever you want to call it floated between SA1 levels of lighthearted adventure seeking and Mario levels of gamey abstract whogivesashit. Sonic Forces was the only notable exception, but they even had classic iconography everywhere in that game as a chaperone.  Any sign of them wavering from the classic Sonic and Tails setup has been met with apprehension or derision for years now.  They can't literally recreate classic Sonic's artstyle because none of the original artists still work there but they've been trying to chase it's tail for years and they don't always do a bad job of it. Sonic, Tails and Eggman basically became the central players of every story with everyone made after 92 getting kicked to the curb. 

Shadow, Sonic 06, Secret Rings etc were bad games in almost every way, but they've already folded way the fuck over on this so I'm not sure what these Classic vs Modern debates are about anymore. Modern Sonic has been classic lite longer than he has been his own thing. Classic fans got their way for 11 years and most people are not interested in it now out of sheer exhaustion. Classic fans were warned about what abusing the iconography could do but there was a lot of mumbling about respecting the roots of the series instead of pushback, so they ran it into the ground. They also didn't bother fixing the gameplay at any point, but maybe if there were more essays nitpicking Sonic's movement systems instead of his quill size they would have made more progress on that front by now.

These types of conversations seem overtly focused on the storytelling/art though and they caved in that regard. I think the big divisive point here is Sonic Adventure 2 and escaping any obligation to let it influence the franchise any further, but that's just not going to happen. Every single thing you can say about classic Sonic's cultural influence applies to Sonic Adventure 2 too. It didn't have as big of an impact as Sonic 2, but it was right behind it. People loved it. People are always going to ask for more of it. You're not going to be able to escape it even if you hit the reset button on the series. Since Sonic's tone and artstyle have already been reigned way the fuck in I can only see the calls for a reboot or an alternate timeline as an escape from any obligation to acknowledge Sonic Adventure 2 and it's fans for good. Nothing you do is going to work though because Sonic Adventure 2 defined Sonic for a lot of people, including some of the people that work on it now.  Mechanics, ideas and tropes it introduced are still basically omnipresent in the series without anyone even giving it a second thought.  In the same way that Sonic Adventure 2 gave the classic series tons of nods because it had to you're just not going to be able to escape this one without people noticing. Embrace it. Give the game another spin and really try to engage with what people like about it. If I can learn to tolerate Sonic CD worship anyone can do this with a much better game. 

You won't be able to please people on the fringes, but games like Sonic Adventure and Sonic Unleashed have shown potential to please the majority of people in both camps so we know it's possible. Just take some shit like that and put some actual effort into creating a decent movement system instead of hot gluing setpieces together. Sonic would be set for a very long time if not for life. The purists won't be satisfied, but the purists on either side of this debate have always been so unreasonable that it's not worth humoring them. Sonic did not falter as a brand because of your petty artstyle or world-building grievances. It faltered because the games were poorly put together. If anything, you can thank the redesigns and new characters like Shadow for keeping the brand alive through some of the most agonizing action platformers ever created.

Classic Sonic and Green Hills have come to represent a bland, design by committee approach to making games that is played out to me and it seems like a lot of the fanbase feels similarly. Maybe that's not really fair, but neither was the bullshit modern Sonic got tagged with.
 

[Diogenes]

6 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Classic fans got their way for 11 years

We got scraps.

[Scritch the Cat]

7 hours ago, Indigo Rush said:

So is Classic Sonic tapped out? It depends on how you frame it. The design? That's probably an irrelevant factor, but if we're talking core gameplay alterations, we probably can't do much more. It's not impossible, but if we're going to stretch things out any farther, why bother arbitrarily sticking to the vague notion of "Classic Sonic"?

...at this point I've typed Classic Sonic so much my fingers are faster at typing that than my own name. Yikes.

Anyway, wrappin' this up. What are your thoughts here? Is there anything more that can be done with that Classic Sonic universe, or should he be relegated to merch and cameos? I'm wanting to collect everyone's thoughts here and stew it over for something later, potentially. 

An interesting thing to consider is that often in Classic Sonic, "core gameplay alterations" have been in the form of level features.  For better or worse.  It certainly is undeniable that Labyrinth Zone plays nothing like Green Hill Zone, and a huge part of that is down to its boxy design and water.  But gimmicks can make levels feel fresh without creating the long-term feeling that suddenly you're playing a different game entirely.  For example, Chemical Plant has dash panels, but unlike in Adventure era Sonic they're not there as a replacement for momentum and  gravity.  They're in the level to provide segments that are unique while also feeling totally appropriate to Sonic and not overstaying their welcome.

Beyond that, I maintain my earlier point that adding some other characters to the mix could spice things up; the key issue being those characters would have to play enough like Sonic that they'd still be able to get through levels designed for Sonic.  So I don't know about Amy (especially since a hammer is most conveniently activated with a separate attack button and more convenient when enemies have HP to make something other than precision important in combat), but the Chaotix would likely work alright.  The one big casualty of their current approach to character inclusion is Fang.  Well actually, in Modern Sonic it's almost everyone, but Fang has the misfortune to be confined to the Classic Sonic series at a time when its allure is largely that it holds firm to a gameplay style that can't really use him well.  I don't know who asked SEGA to bring guns back, but since Sonic Forces showed them willing, I think Modern Sonic gives Fang a better chance at being playable; in spin-offs if not the main series.  Classic Sonic currently doesn't even have spin-offs.

 

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

10 minutes ago, Speedi said:

I mean you're not wrong but... is that really a conversation worth having? Adventure was an evolution of what Sonic had been up until that point, that's why the overhaul to the artstyle exists. Going back to the classic aesthetic just because you CAN seems really pointless with that knowledge in mind imo. I'm not saying Sonic couldn't have evolved with a less drastic overhaul to the world and characters, but at this point we can't go back and time to make that happen so I just don't get the value of a discussion like that.

The value is, modern hasn't exactly done well since he took over in 98. What if by some strategy it were decided that focusing on the classic design and gameplay for a while was needed? That's not going back just because you CAN. It's going back because there is a reason to consider doing so. It's very common in popular culture for franchises to briefly return to their original style to find their footing because of brand struggles. Now you, I, and everyone else in this thread know sonics trouble have a lot more to do with gameplay than anything else, but the actual branding and style is not a negligible part of the equation either.

I'm totally fine with modern being the guy going forward and the classic model disappearing but this series really needs some kind of shift in how it treats basically everything, and start building consistency and excellence. The idea that classic could return for a few years at the forefront should not be outright dismissed considering all that has happened, if the conditions were right and it was advantageous to do so.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

28 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

We got scraps.

You got a whole fricken game that was better than most of the titles made in the last decade and whole branch that was revived and catered directly to you compared to what Modern fans have gotten.
 

Don’t even give us that.

[Indigo Rush]

I would also like to toss this into the stone soup for emphasis and focus: the issue isn't necessarily that Classic Sonic shouldn't exist because Modern Sonic can do anything Classic can... you can flip that. The issue I specifically am trying to shed light on is that Classic Sonic is being treated as an entire pillar of the franchise itself and is gatekeeping both 2D and physics-based gameplay in particular.

That's why I brought up Sonic Advance, a game that nailed both of those, yet featured the Modern Sonic design. It's one thing if the retro design is featured in an appropriate setting, such as Mania or a call-back like Generations, but entirely something else when we need to specify him as a completely different character and universe. 

To make an example with Mario, Paper Mario is a different design for a different kind of game, but that isn't a different character; that's still Mario. The same could have applied with Classic Sonic; save it for the odd throwback side-scroller, alt costume or cameo; but instead he's a different character from a different dimension with certain characters that aren't allowed to appear in the "Modern" Universe (and vice versa), and that's the major problem. I love me some Classic Sonic gameplay and aesthetic (not talking about level locations, hi there Green Hill) but I don't think it should be gated away from the rest of the series. 

Hope this helps keep the discussion on track. 

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

You got a whole fricken game that was better than most of the titles made in the last decade and whole branch that was revived and catered directly to you compared to what Modern fans have gotten.
 

Don’t even give us that.

One game by an outside team is not 11 years of "getting our way".

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Just now, Diogenes said:

One game by an outside team is not 11 years of "getting our way".

One game and a whole branch revived and catered directly to you.

Again, don’t even give us that.

[Speedi]

25 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

The value is, modern hasn't exactly done well since he took over in 98. What if by some strategy it were decided that focusing on the classic design and gameplay for a while was needed? That's not going back just because you CAN. It's going back because there is a reason to consider doing so. It's very common in popular culture for franchises to briefly return to their original style to find their footing because of brand struggles. Now you, I, and everyone else in this thread know sonics trouble have a lot more to do with gameplay than anything else, but the actual branding and style is not a negligible part of the equation either.

I'm totally fine with modern being the guy going forward and the classic model disappearing but this series really needs some kind of shift in how it treats basically everything, and start building consistency and excellence. The idea that classic could return for a few years at the forefront should not be outright dismissed considering all that has happened, if the conditions were right and it was advantageous to do so.

The idea of returning to your roots to understand the success of your older titles doesn't have to be as drastic as switching to an older aesthetic. Crash 4 is game with a completely different interpretation of Naughty Dog Crash's tone, universe and characters, but despite that people still praise the game a ton because it understood what made the original trilogy tick on a gameplay level. Expanding on the ND philosophy while keeping the core in tact. Now if a series that has had WAY more reinterpretations of it's aesthetic can get away with doing it AGAIN as long as the core gameplay stayed in tact I don't think Sonic needs to go back to the original artstyle either.

And again, that's not to say there is no merit to the classic aesthetic being the focus for a while. As you said, the designs and world has merit and many fans do prefer it. But It just feels like such a semantics focused discussion. Like yeah, Classic can take the lead but... doesn't that kind of defeat the point of Modern Sonic? Idk man that whole concept just doesn't sit right with me.

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

One game and a whole branch revived and catered directly to you.

Again, don’t even give us that.

"A whole branch" which consists of, what? Some merch? A couple of animations?

7 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

The issue I specifically am trying to shed light on is that Classic Sonic is being treated as an entire pillar of the franchise itself and is gatekeeping both 2D and physics-based gameplay in particular.

Sonic Team stopped caring about physics-based gameplay long before classic Sonic's return. Hell, they don't even care about it with their takes on classic Sonic. And it's not like they've stopped giving modern Sonic 2D gameplay.

[Wraith]

32 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

We got scraps.

For context: that was part of a paragraph focused on the art, story, and worldbuilding of the series. Sonic Colors could have happened right after Sonic 3 and a lot of the games that came after it are similar in that regard. They're not literal reboots but we lost a lot of beloved mainstays and tropes under the assumption they were alienating you guys. I don't think I'm wrong to assume that either considering you can roll back the clock ten years and find posters on here and retro weeping at the sight of Sonic and Tails travelling together in the Colors teaser. 

It was for classic fans. You may not have liked how it turned out, but that was who this shift in direction was for. 

[azoo]

Wraith and Indigo's above posts have said everything I was trying to say, probably with more eloquence than I could've (blame that on me arguing on this subject for the past week on a different forum as well as this one). But I think to cap off my thoughts, here's my most succinct:

27 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

The value is, modern hasn't exactly done well since he took over in 98.

The moment we stop talking about modern Sonic as a separate character is the moment this conversation moves forward.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

7 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

"A whole branch" which consists of, what? Some merch? A couple of animations?

And a comic mini-series, and who knows what else they’ll make in the future. Which is far more than what other branches have, barring Modern Sonic.

It was a surprise Classic Sonic even made a comeback to begin with.

[Indigo Rush]

2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Sonic Team stopped caring about physics-based gameplay long before classic Sonic's return. Hell, they don't even care about it with their takes on classic Sonic. And it's not like they've stopped giving modern Sonic 2D gameplay.

The fact remains that the only time we've seen this even attempted in any meaningful capacity are instances where Classic Sonic is present; I'm talking Generations (you can go on about how imprecise it is, they still aimed to replicate the feel) Sonic Mania (not a Sonic Team project, but an official game nonetheless) and Sonic Forces (see Sonic Generations).

Not arguing that Sonic Team especially cares to get it 100% right, they demonstrably don't. But ever since Sonic 4 (which, again, missed the mark) you only ever specifically see Classic Sonic in that sort of package. Modern 3D Sonic games don't get to enjoy even a shade of good side-scrolling, let alone proper momentum physics, because that's Classic Sonic's corner. For some reason. 

2 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

And a comic mini-series, and who knows what else they’ll make in the future. Which is far more than what other branches have, barring Modern Sonic.

This is not focusing on the actual issue.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

7 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

This is not focusing on the actual issue.

I never said it was. The fact of the matter is that Classic Sonic’s comeback is far from the “scraps” it was referred to as.

[Indigo Rush]

Just now, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

I never said it was. The fact of the matter is that Classic Sonic’s comeback is far from the scraps it was referred to as.

Oh, I know there's plenty of Classic catered content. That doesn't change the fact that most of it wasn't good, and that's Diogenes' point. 

To circle this back to the main point; Classic Sonic design and aesthetic hasn't solved the core issue of the game series, and it's only muddying the waters and encouraging division. All we end up doing is mincing words and splitting hairs like this. 

Classic fans aren't getting what they want, Modern fans aren't getting what they want, no one's getting what they want, so clearly SEGA needs to regroup and drop this pillar nonsense. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

8 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

Oh, I know there's plenty of Classic catered content. That doesn't change the fact that most of it wasn't good, and that's Diogenes' point. 

I’m pretty sure the reception of it begs to differ given how it’s compared to that of Modern Sonic during the same period.

If anyone has been getting scraps, it the Modern fans who have yet to get what they’ve wanted since Sonic Team threw the baby with the bath water out starting  with either Unleashed or Colors.

[Diogenes]

6 minutes ago, Wraith said:

For context: that was part of a paragraph focused on the art, story, and worldbuilding of the series.

Right, scraps. Halfassed attempts at addressing secondary issues, making weird compromises with modern Sonic, satisfying basically nobody. It may have been "for us" but very little of it is what we actually wanted.

2 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

And a comic mini-series, and who knows what else they’ll make in the future. Which is far more than what other branches have, barring Modern Sonic.

Merely allowing classic Sonic to exist is still just scraps. I'm not giving Sega/Sonic Team any praise for cheap, surface-level pandering just because iterations like Boom and the old cartoons are dead and buried.

1 minute ago, Indigo Rush said:

The fact remains that the only time we've seen this even attempted in any meaningful capacity are instances where Classic Sonic is present;

Sounds like a good reason to not axe classic Sonic, then.

1 minute ago, Indigo Rush said:

Not arguing that Sonic Team especially cares to get it 100% right, they demonstrably don't. But ever since Sonic 4 (which, again, missed the mark) you only ever specifically see Classic Sonic in that sort of package. Modern 3D Sonic games don't get to enjoy even a shade of good side-scrolling, let alone proper momentum physics, because that's Classic Sonic's corner. For some reason. 

If they weren't doing it with modern Sonic before, and they aren't doing it with modern Sonic now, why should we expect them to do it with modern Sonic after they ditch classic?

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

30 minutes ago, Speedi said:

The idea of returning to your roots to understand the success of your older titles doesn't have to be as drastic as switching to an older aesthetic. Crash 4 is game with a completely different interpretation of Naughty Dog Crash's tone, universe and characters, but despite that people still praise the game a ton because it understood what made the original trilogy tick on a gameplay level. Expanding on the ND philosophy while keeping the core in tact. Now if a series that has had WAY more reinterpretations of it's aesthetic can get away with doing it AGAIN as long as the core gameplay stayed in tact I don't think Sonic needs to go back to the original artstyle either.

And again, that's not to say there is no merit to the classic aesthetic being the focus for a while. As you said, the designs and world has merit and many fans do prefer it. But It just feels like such a semantics focused discussion. Like yeah, Classic can take the lead but... doesn't that kind of defeat the point of Modern Sonic? Idk man that whole concept just doesn't sit right with me.

No I agree with you completely. It why I'm not holding up the classic banner on social media. I think Mania was critical in how it provided a reminder for why sonic ever became a successful platformer. I think what many wanted was for sonic team to reverse engineer that game and pop out with a slick new 3d title, not literally clone the aesthetics and cheap imitations of the music and what have you.

I definitely do want them to occasionally dabble in the aesthetic, it's a huge wasted opportunity if they don't because the classic worlds are absolutely gorgeous artwork. And on that you'll have to fight me!

[Indigo Rush]

10 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

I’m pretty sure the reception of it begs to differ given how it’s compared to that of Modern Sonic during the same period.

"Reception of it"

Ok, what are you referring to? Sonic Lost World? Sonic Forces? Sonic Runners? Sonic 4? 

All of those feature Classic-esque aesthetics and gathered a collective lukewarm reception at best. From the perspective of a fan like Diogenes, who is primarily speaking towards gameplay, so that's a really disingenuous assertion. Speaking of:

9 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Sounds like a good reason to not axe classic Sonic, then.

If they weren't doing it with modern Sonic before, and they aren't doing it with modern Sonic now, why should we expect them to do it with modern Sonic after they ditch classic?

1. Not saying Classic Sonic as a design or playstyle should be axed in it's entirety, but gatekeeping those particular design philosophies and endeavors to a separate pillar isn't working, and it's time to move onto fixing the issue 

2. We've all been here long enough to know that SEGA/Sonic Team isn't likely to actually achieve this, but if we're only here to shoot down the discourse of what should happen because it isn't likely to happen, then we wouldn't even bother posting galaxy-brain exchanges on a Sonic the Hedgehog-themed internet forum in the  two thousandth and twenty first year of AD.  

[azoo]

12 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Merely allowing classic Sonic to exist is still just scraps. I'm not giving Sega/Sonic Team any praise for cheap, surface-level pandering just because iterations like Boom and the old cartoons are dead and buried.

If classic Sonic existing is just "scraps" then why does it matter if you have it or not?

The reason Mania is successful is not because it is classic / not modern. It is successful because it's a very well designed game by people who cared, and the end result was a really good experience. If you handed the game-making keys to a group of people who knew the ins and outs of what made the Adventures good, you'd get a good game too.

Thing is, I already know where the conversation will go in response to this. "But how can I trust anyone else? How can I trust Sonic Team?". I don't know, man, wish I could tell you. But if the answer is as self-defeatist as it is where there is no hope in anything besides a continuation of Mania or hiring some fans that won't disappoint you, you might as well hang your hat from Sonic and try to spend time focusing on things that make you happier.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

23 minutes ago, azoo said:

The moment we stop talking about modern Sonic as a separate character is the moment this conversation moves forward.

Tbh I was already doing that. I've said before I mostly don't really care about the difference between the two character designs, it's everything else that comes with them that needs distinction because they really are quite different. Classic sonic to me represents the series at a time when it was clearly in touch with it's foundation and built on its successively and successfully, with a clear sense of style and direction that didn't stray far from the original. Modern is everything but that and that's what I take issue with. All the rest was just an argument.

I also happen to not like Sonic too tall and with huge hands and feet like he has had for 15 years, but sonic wasn't tall in sonic adventure either, his proportions were spot on actually.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

17 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Merely allowing classic Sonic to exist is still just scraps. I'm not giving Sega/Sonic Team any praise for cheap, surface-level pandering just because iterations like Boom and the old cartoons are dead and buried.

Except they didn’t merely “allow” Classic Sonic to exist. They saw the success of Mania based on what Classic fans have been wanting and decided to revive as a separate branch that they seem interested in marketing more.

If that’s “scraps,” it’s still more than what others have gotten for what would’ve likely stayed a part of Sonic’s past otherwise.

9 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

"Reception of it"

Ok, what are you referring to? Sonic Lost World? Sonic Forces? Sonic Runners? Sonic 4? 

All of those feature Classic-esque aesthetics and gathered a collective lukewarm reception at best. From the perspective of a fan lime Diogenes, that's a really disingenuous assertion.
 

I’m referring to Sonic Mania, which blows all those collective of games out of the water by itself and got a glowing reception than any game during that decade, which is far more than can be said of the games you listed.

Even with those titles featuring Classic-esque aesthetics, games like Lost World, Forces, and Sonic 4 seem to still be viewed as part of Modern Sonic.

So if Mania is considered “scraps,” then that piece of “scrap” has done a solid job in one entry than what had been done several times with others during the last period.