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Is Classic Sonic Tapped Out?


Indigo Rush

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3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:
 

Right, scraps. Halfassed attempts at addressing secondary issues, making weird compromises with modern Sonic, satisfying basically nobody. It may have been "for us" but very little of it is what we actually wanted.

Alright so maybe that point was phrased poorly, fair. Every Classic fan feels differently about the new stuff. How much further would you like them to take it? What do you want them to do? Cause from where I'm standing they weren't that far off from just rolling the clock back until Forces came along and even that gave Classic his own timeline. I think it's more likely the next game is more like Colors/LW than Forces too. 

 

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3 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

Tbh I was already doing that. I've said before I mostly don't really care about the difference between the two character designs, it's everything else that comes with them that needs distinction because they really are quite different. Classic sonic to me represents the series at a time when it was clearly in touch with it's foundation and built on its successively and successfully, with a clear sense of style and direction that didn't stray far from the original. Modern is everything but that and that's what I take issue with. All the rest was just an argument.

I also happen to not like Sonic too tall and with huge hands and feet like he has had for 15 years, but sonic wasn't tall in sonic adventure either, his proportions were spot on actually.

The games failed because they were technical disasters, not because they changed up the series aesthetic man. Had the they kept the Classic aesthetic, but still made trash ass games, then nothing would be different.

This just sounds like you trying to distance your preferences from the entire series as a whole. "Oh well the Modern games failed because they strayed too far from their roots" when that's not even remotely true because the biggest departure from Sonic's roots is one of the most popular games in the series.

The problem has, and always will be that thr games are just bad. You can prefer Classic, that's fine but that's not going to change the fact that Modern has and always will be treated as an evolution of what Sonic was in the 90's. You don't have to like it, but its what it is.

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4 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

Tbh I was already doing that. I've said before I mostly don't really care about the difference between the two character designs, it's everything else that comes with them that needs distinction because they really are quite different. Classic sonic to me represents the series at a time when it was clearly in touch with it's foundation and built on its successively and successfully, with a clear sense of style and direction that didn't stray far from the original. Modern is everything but that and that's what I take issue with. All the rest was just an argument.

I also happen to not like Sonic too tall and with huge hands and feet like he has had for 15 years, but sonic wasn't tall in sonic adventure either, his proportions were spot on actually.

Are we only talking about the core genesis titles and CD when you say building on it's foundation? Because if not then I don't see how Sonic was anymore successful at sticking to what made him work if we look at all the numerous spinoffs into other genres, styles of platforming and one attempt at a full 3d game with that artstyle. I could argue Sonic was just as inconsistent after 2 as he was post Adventure 2 whether it be quality or building on what made it work. 

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1 minute ago, Indigo Rush said:

1. Not saying Classic Sonic as a design or playstyle should be axed in it's entirety, but gatekeeping those particular design philosophies and endeavors to a separate pillar isn't working, and it's time to move onto fixing the issue 

Ditch the gatekeeping, then. Classic Sonic existing doesn't mean they can't try to make good 2D/physics-based gameplay with modern Sonic. Of course Sonic Team is about as likely to realize that as they are to realize it's worth making good gameplay.

Just now, azoo said:

If classic Sonic existing is just "scraps" then why does it matter if you have it or not?

Merely allowing classic to exist is scraps. What they should be doing, if they intend to keep it alive, is build a proper side-series out of it, whether out of their hands or someone else's. If all we'd ever get out of classic Sonic is more of Sonic Team's halfassed attempts like Gens and Forces I'd be wishing the little blue fucker dead as much as anyone, much as I regularly wish modern Sonic dead in the hopes of something not shit rising from the ashes.

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7 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Merely allowing classic to exist is scraps. What they should be doing, if they intend to keep it alive, is build a proper side-series out of it, whether out of their hands or someone else's. If all we'd ever get out of classic Sonic is more of Sonic Team's halfassed attempts like Gens and Forces I'd be wishing the little blue fucker dead as much as anyone, much as I regularly wish modern Sonic dead in the hopes of something not shit rising from the ashes.

Well thank you for admitting it, at least.

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Just now, Wraith said:

diogenes has been putting out bounties on modern sonic since i was a boy, this isn't a new revelation 

Oh no I know, I just mean at least we got it out of the way so I don't have to entertain a conversation.

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12 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Alright so maybe that point was phrased poorly, fair. Every Classic fan feels differently about the new stuff. How much further would you like them to take it? What do you want them to do? Cause from where I'm standing they weren't that far off from just rolling the clock back until Forces came along and even that gave Classic his own timeline. I think it's more likely the next game is more like Colors/LW than Forces too. 

If we're imagining the series being handled by people who are competent and actually give a shit, I'd probably go full reboot. Start it all over and actually try to think ahead, set up a world they could build consistently within, have some overall direction for the series' storytelling in mind. A world and direction that are more in the spirit of classic Sonic than the Adventures or the boost games or Boom, but not one that just straight excludes every element from them. Like if they've got a good idea for a rebooted version of Big or Rouge or the Chaotix or whoever, sure, go for it. I can't really go into more detail than that since I've never felt it worth trying to construct a whole alternate take on the series that'll never happen (even if they reboot they certainly wouldn't give a shit about my personal ideas, of course).

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6 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

 I can't really go into more detail than that since I've never felt it worth trying to construct a whole alternate take on the series that'll never happen.

I've done it before as a thought experiment/writing exercise. It's definitely a waste of time but it's more fun than you'd think.

Beats this shit. I said all I can say about this stuff. I'm gonna go watch anime and knock out.

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2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

The games failed because they were technical disasters, not because they changed up the series aesthetic man. Had the they kept the Classic aesthetic, but still made trash ass games, then nothing would be different.

This just sounds like you trying to distance your preferences from the entire series as a whole. "Oh well the Modern games failed because they strayed too far from their roots" when that's not even remotely true because the biggest departure from Sonic's roots is one of the most popular games in the series.

The problem has, and always will be that thr games are just bad. You can prefer Classic, that's fine but that's not going to change the fact that Modern has and always will be treated as an evolution of what Sonic was in the 90's. You don't have to like it, but its what it is.

I already said the primary problem was the gameplay. Come on, don't dance around the other bits in my post. It's obvious that the aesthetic alone isn't going to change anything, we all know that. It's why classic sonic has been under fire by some fans recently. It's also true that some of the other elements of the franchise have caught tons of flak in the media, especially the more "serious" tone of the franchise between 2002-2006 in particular. A ton of people (outside the hardcore fan base) ragged on the melodramatic stories and the edgy try hard thing going on. I remember they did, I was there and constantly reading about it. Younger fans look fondly back on those times and I'm not telling them not to (so please don't bite my head off) but the question has been asked by innumerable gaming journalists why sonic had to start taking itself too seriously, in addition to the primary complaints of the gameplay being ass. Again, no need to debate it, the conversation is overcooked and completely pointless.

Why are you suddenly looking at me like I can't just accept modern as the evolution lol? I did that back in 1998 and had absolutely no problem with it whatsoever. I've even talked about it in this thread, I actually prefer SA1 sonic as the default in 3D over any classic model, I think they got him just about right tbh. Don't be acting like Im not adaptable or objective, I can see reality without my own rose tinted fan googles on, as well as anyone. Most of my commentary is really just for the heck of it.

I just see these "modern sonic is the future" type posts so often now and they are puzzling, thats why I entered the thread. Do people really not realize he's not much younger than the original sonic? We've been at this for quite a long time now. Tbh, "modern" sonic as he has been presented to us for the last few generations is beyond played out in my opinion. He's due for a refresh. If there were ever a time to discuss "what the fck even is a sonic?", I think this next iteration should address that for the next generation, like unleashed did and like SA2 did.

 

I will readily admit, I'd be super duper interested to see what a classic in full 3D interpretation looks like by a inspired director. A game like the sonic cd opening with all of that abstract bright and vibrant art. Yeah, sure, i'd drool over that. But it's definitely not the only way I see sonic, he's a more versatile character than that. I bring it up, because we really have never seen classic in 3d before. Only SA1 was anything resembling that. I'm not even looking for this anymore though, this franchise stopped catering to me a long time ago. I'm here now more or less just to see the next trend for sonic and then move on with my life.

2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Ditch the gatekeeping, then. Classic Sonic existing doesn't mean they can't try to make good 2D/physics-based gameplay with modern Sonic. Of course Sonic Team is about as likely to realize that as they are to realize it's worth making good gameplay.

Merely allowing classic to exist is scraps. What they should be doing, if they intend to keep it alive, is build a proper side-series out of it, whether out of their hands or someone else's. If all we'd ever get out of classic Sonic is more of Sonic Team's halfassed attempts like Gens and Forces I'd be wishing the little blue fucker dead as much as anyone, much as I regularly wish modern Sonic dead in the hopes of something not shit rising from the ashes.

I somehow missed this. This is incredibly funny, thank you for that. I too, in some sense, wish the modern sonic house would burn down to the ground and start over. Sonic can still have green eyes and what have you, but I think a solid foundation is desperately in order. Yes, a lot of mania should be infused in the next formula, I will say that without hesitation or care for anyone's objections. But from there, just smart decision making whichever direction they want to take the character. Sonic's guidelines don't need to be super strict, they just have to have a good sense for who the character is and what world he lives in, and let it flow from there.

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11 hours ago, Piko said:

Also, imo there isn't really much more you can do with Classic Sonic that can't be done with Modern Sonic; the Advance and Rush games not only continued the 2D formula, but felt like an evolution of it.

These two old interviews seem relevant.

---

GameSpot: Why did Sega decide to bring Sonic back to 2D? Did the success of Sonic Rush and Sonic Rush Adventure play a part?

Ken Balough: Old-school Sonic fans have long asked to see Sonic return to a more 2D style of gameplay. Many liked the daytime stages in Unleashed, but wanted to see a game that plays purely similar to the early games of the Genesis. Project Needlemouse is that critical first step that brings Sonic back to his 2D roots.

---

In your opinion does this game have most in common with the Sonic the Hedgehog trilogy, the Sonic Advance games, or the Sonic Rush games? – spambot404

Takashi Iizuka: Of course Sonic the Hedgehog trilogy is the one this has most in common with. With the DS Sonic series, you have various actions like grind or boost. What I am creating with this title is a simple platform action game that you can enjoy with one button.

---

On another note. We also had a game ten years ago with the selling point of being able to play two different formats of 2D Sonic gameplay. That may or may not be important.

...

As an anecdotal aside. That recent rumor that simultaneously hinted "MD Sonic isn't coming back" and "a new 2D Sonic with the Millennium cast is in the works"? I've personally seen far more guesses on the new 2D game being a new Advance, or perhaps a new Rush; than I have seen guesses on it being a "Mania 2" that also happens to use the Millennium cast and designs. I wonder why that is.

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3 hours ago, Speedi said:

Are we only talking about the core genesis titles and CD when you say building on it's foundation? Because if not then I don't see how Sonic was anymore successful at sticking to what made him work if we look at all the numerous spinoffs into other genres, styles of platforming and one attempt at a full 3d game with that artstyle. I could argue Sonic was just as inconsistent after 2 as he was post Adventure 2 whether it be quality or building on what made it work. 

I mean, yeah I am. When doing series evaluation I primarily look at main series titles, since those are the ones that get the big money and focus from the main developers. Many spinoffs in this franchise are not made by sonic team proper and thus I don't really harp on them when they are duds and that goes for any era of sonic. For example, boom wasn't a big a deal to me as it was for others, because it wasn't a sonic team game. It only mattered because it was catastrophically bad at a time when Sonic had barely recovered from the previous decade and because SEGA (even though they won't publicly admit it) were considering riding that as the series flagship. 

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I haven't read the whole thread yet, but what I expect from classic Sonic is basically what Dotemu did with Streets of Rage 4. Keep the gameplay, improve everything else. That's it. I couldn't care less if it's not pixel art and chiptune, as much as I love these. What I love about the classic games isn't so much the "chubby" Sonic design or "retro aesthetics", but rather the feeling and physics of these games, along with the simplicity of it. If they can make a game that keeps these itens in check, I'm sure I'll love it, doesn't matter the art style, the ilumination engine, or whatever. Could modern Sonic use all these elements? Obviously. They had tried in the past, but they never actually got it

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It seems people, classic fans especially, are scared at the idea that there could be a new 2D Sonic game that's based on Modern Sonic. My opinion is, before complaining, let's see what the game looks and plays like. Mania was a success, Rush and Unleashed were a success: Sega built more than a decade of games out of the Rush and Unleashed formula, and I expect Sega to take inspirations from Sonic Mania as well. The development of the game can go wrong and we could get a bad game, ok, but that wouldn't be Modern Sonic's fault, that would be Sega or the people who worked on the game's.

On the other hand, nothing good can come out if we stick with recreating Sonic 3 & Knuckles over and over. It worked once, but I'm pretty sure that if you do it again, it wouldn't have the same effect it had before. Mania has brought some innovations... I'm not refering to the drop dash, that's a very minor thing that only speedrunners or advanced players would care of. I'm refering of Ray's gameplay and Encore's characters-as-lives system. Well, I've seen some people complaining about those elements*, so I expect people to complain if they make a new classic game and put in more of those innovative elements, because it wouldn't be "classic gameplay" anymore.

That's why I think switching back to Modern Sonic is potentially good, because you have all the creative freedom without the fans complaining that it's not S3&K. It's the same thing as the name "Sonic 4"... people would have been 80% less angry at the game if it was called differently.

*especially Ray, I've read some people saying that his glide skill gave you more advantage from flying than from rolling, taking away from the core of Classic Sonic's gameplay that consists in taking advantage from the ground's shape to gain more speed. I can't remember where and when.

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Sonic Mania was the biggest critical success this series has had in the past 20 years. The only thing I ever hear outside of places like this is, "When are they going to make a Mania 2 with all new zones?" Regardless of what color everyone's eyes are, Sega-Sammy would have to be both ignorant and incompetent to fail to follow-up on a success like that, or to fail to recognize how much more potential is there.

Given that, we'll probably never see anything like Mania again.

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1 hour ago, Iko said:

It seems people, classic fans especially, are scared at the idea that there could be a new 2D Sonic game that's based on Modern Sonic. 

There has been ONE full game in the last few decades which was a 2D game based on classic sonic and you think classic fans are afraid of this?

I think YOU have an highly irrational fear that every game is going to be like S3K because it's not what YOU want. People like you who make statements like "not every game can be Sonic 3 again". Lol... no offense at all, honestly, but do you hear yourself? The series clearly moved on from that 25 years ago. Take a look around. We were shocked that Mania could even exist. And as you probably have noticed there are really no signs of a follow up to it.

It's just weird to see this caricature of the old heads, when we've just sat back and watched the series evolve numerous times and continued to participate in it anyway. Maybe you need to think about why you're so afraid of an idea that SEGA has not entertained in over two decades. Seriously, it'll help you relax. Modern isn't going anywhere.

Yes obviously we will ask for the stuff we want when we get the chance and prefer what we like. This should go without need for comment.

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12 hours ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

I already said the primary problem was the gameplay. Come on, don't dance around the other bits in my post. It's obvious that the aesthetic alone isn't going to change anything, we all know that. It's why classic sonic has been under fire by some fans recently. It's also true that some of the other elements of the franchise have caught tons of flak in the media, especially the more "serious" tone of the franchise between 2002-2006 in particular. A ton of people (outside the hardcore fan base) ragged on the melodramatic stories and the edgy try hard thing going on. I remember they did, I was there and constantly reading about it. Younger fans look fondly back on those times and I'm not telling them not to (so please don't bite my head off) but the question has been asked by innumerable gaming journalists why sonic had to start taking itself too seriously, in addition to the primary complaints of the gameplay being ass. Again, no need to debate it, the conversation is overcooked and completely pointless.

Why are you suddenly looking at me like I can't just accept modern as the evolution lol? I did that back in 1998 and had absolutely no problem with it whatsoever. I've even talked about it in this thread, I actually prefer SA1 sonic as the default in 3D over any classic model, I think they got him just about right tbh. Don't be acting like Im not adaptable or objective, I can see reality without my own rose tinted fan googles on, as well as anyone. Most of my commentary is really just for the heck of it.

I just see these "modern sonic is the future" type posts so often now and they are puzzling, thats why I entered the thread. Do people really not realize he's not much younger than the original sonic? We've been at this for quite a long time now. Tbh, "modern" sonic as he has been presented to us for the last few generations is beyond played out in my opinion. He's due for a refresh. If there were ever a time to discuss "what the fck even is a sonic?", I think this next iteration should address that for the next generation, like unleashed did and like SA2 did.

My post came off as a bit more aggressive than necessary, sorry. 

Personally speaking, I don't see them really altering Sonic's design again for the future, mostly because there's not much they can do to it to "freshen" it up outside of adding details. (Most fans just add a scarf or something). The current design was mainly used because the devs felt like the Classic design didn't look right for a 3D environment. Now whether that's true or not is in the eyes on the beholder, but the design wasn't changed just to freshen things up, but to make the characters function better in a 3D space. 

I do agree that the series needs an adrenaline shot, but I don't think it needs to abandon the last twenty years of itself and only focus on the first three games either. 

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2 hours ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

There has been ONE full game in the last few decades which was a 2D game based on classic sonic and you think classic fans are afraid of this?

I think YOU have an highly irrational fear that every game is going to be like S3K because it's not what YOU want. People like you who make statements like "not every game can be Sonic 3 again". Lol... no offense at all, honestly, but do you hear yourself? The series clearly moved on from that 25 years ago. Take a look around. We were shocked that Mania could even exist. And as you probably have noticed there are really no signs of a follow up to it.

It's just weird to see this caricature of the old heads, when we've just sat back and watched the series evolve numerous times and continued to participate in it anyway. Maybe you need to think about why you're so afraid of an idea that SEGA has not entertained in over two decades. Seriously, it'll help you relax. Modern isn't going anywhere.

Yes obviously we will ask for the stuff we want when we get the chance and prefer what we like. This should go without need for comment.

And you completely missed the point of my post, because I think we are definitely getting Mania 2, but with Modern Sonic slapped onto it and a different name (and I'm pretty excited for this, mind you). I read people (in this very thread too) who continue saying Sega is stupid for abandoning Classic Sonic and all. We're getting the same thing with different graphics; things can go wrong but if that happens it'd be due to the developers, not due to a few modern sprites or models.

The Chao in Space short is not worse than Mania Adventures because it features modern characters, it's the same stuff.

2 hours ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

And as you probably have noticed there are really no signs of a follow up to it.

Are you sure about that? Because of that rumor?

More than once Sega decided to stick to a formula whenever that worked and was well recieved; see the Rush/Unleashed example (almost two decades of Sonic were based off those games, even today the mobile games are based on Unleashed's quickstep and have boost mechanics). People are getting tired of boost gameplay, while Sonic Mania worked, so Sega will capitalize on that. Maybe it's not Christian Whitehead working on it, but I'm pretty sure that the very reason for why after a decade of handheld versions of console games, they decided to go back to making an original 2D game unrelated to the main 3D one, is because of the success of Mania. Do you really think they are making a game that exists because of Mania and plays nothing like Mania? To me it seems the opposite.

Obviously, all of this comes by assuming that the rumor from Zippo is all legit. The rumor says that this time around they're using the modern design, but it doesn't mean that the gameplay won't be mania-like, because I'm pretty sure it will be. Call it "Advance" if you want, it's Classic Sonic gameplay with Modern Sonic artstyle and content.

This interview confirms my point. It talks about bringing elements from Mania to 3D games, but since a 2D game seems to be in the work, it's obvious that said game will be heavily influenced by Mania as well.

So, maybe it won't technically be Mania 2, but it will likely be Mania 2 in spirit (as long as the development team manages to get it right).

TL:DR

A follow up is obvious, and there's plenty of signs that it's going to happen in a way or another; maybe not the way you was expecting but still.

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16 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

My post came off as a bit more aggressive than necessary, sorry. 

Personally speaking, I don't see them really altering Sonic's design again for the future, mostly because there's not much they can do to it to "freshen" it up outside of adding details. (Most fans just add a scarf or something). The current design was mainly used because the devs felt like the Classic design didn't look right for a 3D environment. Now whether that's true or not is in the eyes on the beholder, but the design wasn't changed just to freshen things up, but to make the characters function better in a 3D space. 

I do agree that the series needs an adrenaline shot, but I don't think it needs to abandon the last twenty years of itself and only focus on the first three games either. 

No problem man. And as you might guess I agree to a large extent. Sonics history is not just the classic games and he's had good ideas sprinkled across all eras. I think even diogenes has said this, that if he were going to do a full reboot he would not throw out everything after 1994. Same here essentially. I think SA2, for example, probably has the best post game multiplayer and general replayability of any game in the entire series and it doesn't get enough credit for that by sega, especially in this dlc/lootbox world we live in now. That needs to be added permanently to the sonic formula because people replay the shit out of that game, warts and all. There are other examples across the series as well. 

For me with classic, I just really look at the consistent focus the main titles had, the obvious gameplay foundation, and the art direction. I don't even think it's plainly necessary to do that art style all the time, but I think the series should use it as the foundation, it's just unique to sonic and helps the series stand out from other franchises. But everything else, especially story, I think they can pull from more modern takes with some careful revisions. Truthfully I don't think a big story is necessary to sonic but if handled right it could certainly be a positive.

And to your main point, I have to stress that a refresh isn't a reboot as you know. I don't think modern should change dramatically, only slight updates. I would like to see a shorter sonic (with smaller hands and feet too, they're just awkward atm), like the adventure games tbh in 3D. Tall sonic imo takes away too much of the 'hedgehog' from Sonic. He should be rolling as much as he runs tbh, it's in the original spirit of the character. I get why they did what they did with post 2008 modern, it's not illogical and it's not a bad design. It's just not ideal IMO.

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38 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

No problem man. And as you might guess I agree to a large extent. Sonics history is not just the classic games and he's had good ideas sprinkled across all eras. I think even diogenes has said this, that if he were going to do a full reboot he would not throw out everything after 1994. Same here essentially. I think SA2, for example, probably has the best post game multiplayer and general replayability of any game in the entire series and it doesn't get enough credit for that by sega, especially in this dlc/lootbox world we live in now. That needs to be added permanently to the sonic formula because people replay the shit out of that game, warts and all. There are other examples across the series as well. 

For me with classic, I just really look at the consistent focus the main titles had, the obvious gameplay foundation, and the art direction. I don't even think it's plainly necessary to do that art style all the time, but I think the series should use it as the foundation, it's just unique to sonic and helps the series stand out from other franchises. But everything else, especially story, I think they can pull from more modern takes with some careful revisions. Truthfully I don't think a big story is necessary to sonic but if handled right it could certainly be a positive.

And to your main point, I have to stress that a refresh isn't a reboot as you know. I don't think modern should change dramatically, only slight updates. I would like to see a shorter sonic (with smaller hands and feet too, they're just awkward atm), like the adventure games tbh in 3D. Tall sonic imo takes away too much of the 'hedgehog' from Sonic. He should be rolling as much as he runs tbh, it's in the original spirit of the character. I get why they did what they did with post 2008 modern, it's not illogical and it's not a bad design. It's just not ideal IMO.

I honestly think people tend to exaggerate how consistent the Classics were, because outside of gameplay they all have wildly different artstyles, with CD particularly being the standout, and Sonic 3 using an entirely different model for the characters altogether. The devs confirmed from the beginning that the series takes place on Earth, and even had humans in the original backstory of the series, in the series proper they just weren't relevant outside of Eggman, but Eggman's entire existence means that yes, there is a human civilization within Sonic's world whether people like it or not, and humans existing are the foundation of Shadow's entire character. 

I know the idea of "Sonic in the real world" bothers people, but its just something we're gonna have to accept. People claim its weird for Sonic to be interacting with humans, but its honestly no more weird than Eggman inexplicably being the only human who exists in a world populated by furries. At some point , you're gonna have to compromise. If Crash can have multiple human antagonists in a world of anthros, I don't see why the same cannot apply to Sonic. 

 

I feel like in a 3D space, you need a more human design to accommodate for all of the movement the characters do. In 2D, you don't have to worry about that. Think of it like the reason Nintendo never uses "Small Mario" for 3D games, and just default to his tall form, because it looks awkward in 3D. It's hard to imagine a design like this capable of all of the acrobatics that we see in-game.

1200px-Small_Mario_SM3DL.png

 

Once again, this is not a problem in the 2D games because of the perspective. The same is true for Sonic, and look at how the two Sonic's are animated in both Generations and Forces, Classic Sonic just animates a lot more stiffly than Modern. Now sure, you can argue that they're "not trying enough" with the animations, but I personally feel its the design itself. 

 

Now sure, it might detract from Sonic being a Hedgehog, but he's also an Anthropomorphic Hedgehog. Now if him veering more towards humanoid bothers you, then fine. But his longer limbs and torso are just easier to animate. 

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23 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I feel like in a 3D space, you need a more human design to accommodate for all of the movement the characters do. In 2D, you don't have to worry about that. Think of it like the reason Nintendo never uses "Small Mario" for 3D games, and just default to his tall form, because it looks awkward in 3D. It's hard to imagine a design like this capable of all of the acrobatics that we see in-game.

...except the render you used as an example of small Mario, is from 3D Land.

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51 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

...except the render you used as an example of small Mario, is from 3D Land.

Yes, and I maintain that it looks awkward and its exception, not the rule because they immediately went back on it for Odyssey and Mario starts off by default in his "normal" form when playing 3D Land and World. 

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The reason they "went back on it" for Odyssey was because 3D World and Odyssey are two different types of Mario games. 3D World is meant to be a linear course-based game in the vein of the 2D Mario titles, while Odyssey is an exploration-based scavenger hunt like 64 and Sunshine. The fact that they have different health systems is due to gameplay reasons, not because they thought small Mario looked weird.

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Saturn-era classic Sonic proportions would work fine in 3D. Not so much the "Oshima's first Sonic 1 draft" one they based the generations model off of. They started stretching his limbs out in illustrations pretty quickly after the first game.

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34 minutes ago, Domino said:

The reason they "went back on it" for Odyssey was because 3D World and Odyssey are two different types of Mario games. 3D World is meant to be a linear course-based game in the vein of the 2D Mario titles, while Odyssey is an exploration-based scavenger hunt like 64 and Sunshine. The fact that they have different health systems is due to gameplay reasons, not because they thought small Mario looked weird.

Even before 3D world and Land were out, they have never used the "Small Mario" dichotomy ever in a 3D game despite having multiple opportunities to do so.

 

24 minutes ago, Natie said:

Saturn-era classic Sonic proportions would work fine in 3D. Not so much the "Oshima's first Sonic 1 draft" one they based the generations model off of. They started stretching his limbs out in illustrations pretty quickly after the first game.

And wouldn't you know it, what do you think the Modern design was derived from? The Saturn-Era Sonic was pretty much the point when they were transitioning Sonic into a fully 3D space and were modifying his design to accommodate. 

This is why the idea that Modern is somehow incompatible from Classic is ludicrous when he was literally designed as a natural evolution and step. 

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