Is Classic Sonic Tapped Out?

[Razule]

Classic Sonic and Robotnik definitely look a lot more awkward in Generations than their longer limbed counterparts. Limbs aside, his ball torso looks weird. Stretch his limbs out, give him a slightly more athethic build, give him longer spines to match his new proportions. Throw in green eyes for some extra flair, and that's why he's the way he is today. An excellent evolution of the original Sonic design.

[Diogenes]

3 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Even before 3D world and Land were out, they have never used the "Small Mario" dichotomy ever in a 3D game despite having multiple opportunities to do so.

They probably just didn't have any reason to. It's not like "Super" Mario was a new design specifically for 3D, it was already his default look, even if the 2D games started him off small.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

Just in case I was misunderstood, I've already said I think the classic sonic character design doesn't work as well as the modern iterations in 3D, except possibly the Saturn versions which are extremely similar minus the eye color. My favorite compromise was how he was in adventure. Taller than classic, as he had been getting slightly taller throughout the classic era anyway, but not quite as tall as the 2006 and later versions. That's all I'm saying. Sonic is known for both running and curling into a ball and the design should reflect that.

In general, modern is fine. I just think the proportions are a bit too much, it should dial back a bit to earlier in the 3D series.

[Kuzu]

7 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

They probably just didn't have any reason to. It's not like "Super" Mario was a new design specifically for 3D, it was already his default look, even if the 2D games started him off small.

The main point I'm getting at is that small proportions do not look good in a 3D space, stretching Sonic's limbs out was a necessary evil to make his animations more dynamic. As mentioned, they were already stretching Sonic's limbs out from as far back as the 5th generation on the Saturn, before fully transitioning in Adventure and that's the design we've had since. 

Even Classic fans who prefer the design have admitted that he just looks off with his chibi proportions in Generations and Forces.

[Diogenes]

8 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Even Classic fans who prefer the design have admitted that he just looks off with his chibi proportions in Generations and Forces.

Sonic Team's classic Sonic model doesn't look that great regardless of what angle you're looking at it from, I don't think the length of his limbs have all that much to do with it.

[Natie]

From my personal character design opinion... the saturn era was just the right balance between the two extremes, not like either of the extremes look bad at all, but "first-draft" is just a bit too inflexible and the SA redesign is a bit too exaggerated and heavy. Plus I think the black eyes look more bold and eye-catching.

I figure I'd only care about that kinda thing being a cartoonist but it seems lots of people feel the same way.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Natie said:

From my personal character design opinion... the saturn era was just the right balance between the two extremes, not like either of the extremes look bad at all, but "first-draft" is just a bit too inflexible and the SA redesign is a bit too exaggerated and heavy. Plus I think the black eyes look more bold and eye-catching.

I figure I'd only care about that kinda thing being a cartoonist but it seems lots of people feel the same way.

Sad we never got to see that era.

[Speedi]

21 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Sonic Team's classic Sonic model doesn't look that great regardless of what angle you're looking at it from, I don't think the length of his limbs have all that much to do with it.

I don't get why you seem to be fighting this notion so hard. Whatever your preference for the designs are, at the very least it's clear that Sonic's genesis design being able to work in 3D requires tweaking no matter how subtle. Somethings just don't look good as a 1:1 translation from 2D to 3D, Pokemon dropped bobblehead models in Sun/Moon for a reason. You can argue his modern design has too much tweaking plenty but at the end of the day Sonic was never going to make to the third dimension unscathed. 

[Diogenes]

Okay, then tweak it. I'm not saying they need to do a perfect recreation of Sonic 1's official art to be valid.

[Natie]

 

6 minutes ago, Angyu said:

Sad we never got to see that era.

We did, in a sense. (box art, promotional stuff, and the Fighters model best of all) but it certainly didnt reach it's full potential. From what I've seen, the prototype SA1 model basically had that design.

[Kuzu]

6 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Okay, then tweak it. I'm not saying they need to do a perfect recreation of Sonic 1's official art to be valid.

That's literally what the Modern design is 

 

[Diogenes]

You realize there's more than one way to tweak a design, right.

[Wraith]

Sonic's proportions had to change because of the shift to 3D no matter what but countless other tweaks the Adventure games made were purely for stylistic reasons and not for more concrete ones. At that point it's just going to come down to preference. Sonic didn't need to get more detailed or his limbs longer after that, but I tended to prefer him that way even as a kid. It made him look less childish and more like a laid back teenager. The exaggerated limbs and poses were a nice shake up from the classic art and helped sell the whole street art/extreme sports angle SA2 was going for. Subbing out the happy go lucky smile for the mischievous shark teeth sold it for me. 

Hunting for the perfect Sonic that they should have used forever seems pointless to me compared to just adjusting to fit the vibe for each individual game. SA1 and 2 embraced a more urban culture in every aspect so it made sense to tweak Sonic's design to fit. They're probably going to be making tweaks to his design forever so I'd suggest not sweating it so much as long as he still looks cool.

[Speedi]

Yeah, I mean what's done is done no reason to keep harping on it. Besides wasn't what brought us to this point more about whether or not classic or modern should be the focus of the series then what design works better?

[Kuzu]

6 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

You realize there's more than one way to tweak a design, right.

You're gonna do everything in your power to deny the existence of the Modern design aren't you.

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

You're gonna do everything in your power to deny the existence of the Modern design aren't you.

No? It's there. I don't deny it. I just prefer the classic design and don't think the modern design is the only thing that can work.

[Kuzu]

7 minutes ago, Speedi said:

Yeah, I mean what's done is done no reason to keep harping on it. Besides wasn't what brought us to this point more about whether or not classic or modern should be the focus of the series then what design works better?

The point is that both designs worked for what they accomplished; when the 3D games became the main focus of the series, the point of the Classic design was null and void. It was a cute callback in Generations, and nothing more. But since this is the Sonic fanbase, so now you have a subset of older fans who are demanding the Classic design be made the focus again of the entire series.  

So as long as the series is releasing 3D games, the Modern design will always be the focus whether we like it or not. 

 

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

No? It's there. I don't deny it. I just prefer the classic design and don't think the modern design is the only thing that can work.

At this point, it's literally a matter of preference then but as I said, the design is here to stay as long as Sega are making 3D games. They might tweak the design a bit to fit whatever style the game is in, but it doesn't change the fact that they're leaning on the Modern design dude. They even released a video that makes it plain as day.

 

Modern Sonic is just "Sonic" as far as Sega is concerned, and that's how they're gonna treat it for the foreseeable future because there simply is no reason to go back to the Classic design outside of trying to appeal to a small group of fans who prefer it.

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

At this point, it's literally a matter of preference then but as I said, the design is here to stay as long as Sega are making 3D games. They might tweak the design a bit to fit whatever style the game is in, but it doesn't change the fact that they're leaning on the Modern design dude. They even released a video that makes it plain as day.

You say this like you think I don't already know it.

[Winston]

My favorite Sonic design is probably the one from the original Adventure. Granted, Sonic looks a bit different in the artwork for that game than the actual game, but the in game look of Modern Sonic is nearly perfect. I never minded the green eyes as some people have. It's the ugly lanky limbs that I hate the most. I think it's the best mix of both modern and classic. I hate the way that the SADX model looks though. It's just so off, and I'd rather not have that come back. I think the best lanky Sonic has looked is probably from Unleashed. 

[Speedi]

7 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

The point is that both designs worked for what they accomplished; when the 3D games became the main focus of the series, the point of the Classic design was null and void. It was a cute callback in Generations, and nothing more. But since this is the Sonic fanbase, so now you have a subset of older fans who are demanding the Classic design be made the focus again of the entire series.  

So as long as the series is releasing 3D games, the Modern design will always be the focus whether we like it or not. 

Right, and I agree with you. It's pretty weird that Sonic's current aesthetic is something that needs to be defended in favor of being the focus to me. I've never seen this sort of thing with other fandoms, but maybe I'm just ignorant to those kinda discussions lol.

[Kuzu]

21 minutes ago, Speedi said:

Right, and I agree with you. It's pretty weird that Sonic's current aesthetic is something that needs to be defended in favor of being the focus to me. I've never seen this sort of thing with other fandoms, but maybe I'm just ignorant to those kinda discussions lol.

To be honest, the only reason people are so vocal is because Sega decided to  focus most of their marketing around the Classic design, knowing full well that it was going to bait in the fans of that design. But they had no actual intentions of taking it seriously as a pillar, because its just a design. Its pretty blatant manipulation, and is only increasing the splinters within the base. 

 

Had they left Classic behind in Generations, that section of fans would have been ignored and we wouldn't have to be dealing with them

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

1 hour ago, Speedi said:

Right, and I agree with you. It's pretty weird that Sonic's current aesthetic is something that needs to be defended in favor of being the focus to me. I've never seen this sort of thing with other fandoms, but maybe I'm just ignorant to those kinda discussions lol.

Besides the fact that kuzu keeps making false accusations....() I don't find it hard to believe at all. It's a matter of preference. If you have your preference for modern, then others can have theirs for classic.  No one thinks modern sonic is going to go away and no classic fans (even on retro, afaik) are out here seriously campaigning for the destruction of all things modern. I think for a brief moment, some fans were hoping that a classic renaissance would lead to a greater fusion of those ideas in the current franchise. The fact that Mania was the most widely praised thing in the franchise in over 20 years, not to mention how much the franchise has floundered in that time, just added fuel for us. And to tell you the truth, I think these ideas are so obvious and straightforward at this point, the only reason we find people arguing with us is because we know they just want attention for their own preferences. And that's fine, I just wish they would admit it and relax! That's what this really comes down to imo and I've literally heard dozens of younger fans say it: "you had your turn classic fans, it's our turn now."...whatever that is supposed to mean lol. That kind of discussion is ridiculous. No franchise would ever operate like that. It's about what's best for business and for all interested consumers.

If we have to be told repeatedly to "get with the times, it's over!" then we're allowed to assess the current situation as well, and talk about how to improve it. it's pretty hilarious to me, like why would that thought have never occured to us? I don't think a single classic fan that I've come across is delusional enough to not notice.... classic sonic is not the face of the brand anymore (**gasp!!**) and I have no idea why that bears repeating. It's more like some of you need to convince yourselves of that, I swear it seems that way. I've been a fan longer than some of you have been alive tbh, and I know how to read the writing on the wall. This series is undergoing yet another change soon as it has many times before. And yet again I'll adapt my expectations to it, as will others from my generation. People like me have no trouble seeing things as they are and chiming in with our input and preferences when we feel like. It's why were still here.

The classic fans that truly don't like anything modern and don't want to adopt have long gone. Trust me, I personally know many people like that. Several of my colleagues and friends around my age have told me in recent years, especially when mania released, they hadn't paid attention to sonic in forever and hated the 3d transition. Those people aren't the ones you're chatting with though. 

I dunno...maybe diogenes is like that but I think he/she may just be pulling your legs like I am. 

[Natie]

You know, all this blame gets shifted on classic fans but all I see these days are modern fans making all the same mistakes, whereas the "Green Eyes >:o" era has long since gone away. Hell there was this angry outrage about a fangame changing to classic style on the creators own free will. Tons of bitter pessimism and paranoia any time the old hedgehog shows his face anywhere. If history is repeating itself then does that mean Forces is the modern fan's Sonic 4? Hope to god they get their Mania soon should we all survive so long :v

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

7 minutes ago, Natie said:

You know, all this blame gets shifted on classic fans but all I see these days are modern fans making all the same mistakes, whereas the "Green Eyes >:o" era has long since gone away. Hell there was this angry outrage about a fangame changing to classic style on the creators own free will. Tons of bitter pessimism and paranoia any time the old hedgehog shows his face anywhere. If history is repeating itself then does that mean Forces is the modern fan's Sonic 4? Hope to god they get their Mania soon should we all survive so long :v

They were screaming at us for so long they hadn't noticed they BECAME one of us lol. It's true. They are doing it to the youngest group now that grew up with the boost titles.

But I do sincerely hope they get what they want and we all chill out. Mainly because none of this is any of our "faults". It's just something that was destined to happen tbh. As frustrated as I've been over the years at SEGA, I realized that a many of their problems were just timing in the marketplace, as most notably experienced in the early 3D era, and thus unavoidable really.

[Iko]

As I said several times, I like both Classic and Modern's designs, what annoys me of Classic Sonic is that in the Classic subseries the majority of the franchise is being retconned, so a classic game is likely to not have part of the content that I like of the franchise. If it was just an artstyle like it was supposed to be, I would have no problem at getting more and more classic games, I would even accept if they decided to make the whole franchise all classic by redesigning all the modern stuff to fit the older artstyle (Sonic is Sonic, I don't care about how he looks like).

It's when some content is excluded for the sake of it that I'm annoyed, and this is not something exclusive to the Sonic franchise.

With the current split, by excluding the classic side you only lose a few characters that anyway were never really introduced that much well (I'm sad that Fang will never get a modern counterpart, he was cool). You lose a lot more in case you exclude the modern side instead: not just characters, but game mechanics, world building and lore.

And since someone made assumptions on me before, I'm not really young, my first Sonic game was Sonic 1 on Master System (and I still love it), I like Sonic 3 & Knuckles, and I prefer the modern side of the franchise because I prefer when they get experimental, no matter if most of the attempts usually go wrong. I didn't like Lost World that much, but I'm glad it exists because it tried something new (and by the way, as I said, I think it looks more like a classic game than a modern one).