Is Classic Sonic Tapped Out?

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

5 minutes ago, Iko said:

As I said several times, I like both Classic and Modern's designs, what annoys me of Classic Sonic is that in the Classic subseries the majority of the franchise is being retconned, so a classic game is likely to not have part of the content that I like of the franchise. 

This is the reason I'm interested in the premise of this new show Sonic prime and the multiverse aspect. It seems clear to me now, even though I've wanted another soft reboot (and we probably are getting one even its minor) the answer may actually be to have a multiverse where all of these past and present ideas can coexist without so much infighting. Although to your point, even then it's not like the universes are connected; like a universe that contains modern shadow and a separate one that contains ray and mighty may exist next to each other but if theyre never allowed to mix then what is the point for someone who is interested in both? And the same reason why someone like me would wonder, why does classic sonic have to be limited to 2D, or green hill zone for the 20th time? The original sonic team never thought that way back in the mid 90s. Good questions to ask. 

 

[Iko]

2 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

This is the reason I'm interested in the premise of this new show Sonic prime and the multiverse aspect. It seems clear to me now, even though I've wanted another soft reboot (and we probably are getting one even its minor) the answer may actually be to have a multiverse where all of these past and present ideas can coexist without so much infighting. Although to your point, even then it's not like the universes are connected; like a universe that contains modern shadow and a separate one that contains ray and mighty may exist next to each other but if theyre never allowed to mix then what is the point for someone who is interested in both? And the same reason why someone like me would wonder, why does classic sonic have to be limited to 2D, or green hill zone for the 20th time? The original sonic team never thought that way back in the mid 90s. Good questions to ask.

This would have never been a problem if they never made the Classic artstyle into a separated universe, that's where the problem lies. Why can't a classic styled game come out and be part of the modern timeline, happening after Forces? Why can't Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic be the same guy just drawn differently because of a design choice?

[expansivelovestories]

On 2/9/2021 at 12:51 PM, Speedi said:

Edit: That said, a Sonic The Hedgehog level maker would be a pretty cool sendoff.

It does seem like there is a chance of this happening.  i am trying to remember the final clues image from Aaron which has a section that could be interpreted as being about a level creator. 

Hopefully this would follow the lead of late 90's Sonic homage Jazz Jackrabbit 2 for which the dev team made a user-friendly level creation system, used that to build the game, and bundled it with the game so that people at home could add onto the game's library indefinitely!  what i mean is that there was a base game to experience too rather than just a level creator!  There is something inspiring about seeing what the main team wanted to create too!!

The one aspect that they weren't able to figure out back then was anything like an enemy or boss creator.  i am still not sure how it would be done but i think with enough years that the team behind this theoretical software could figure out something!

[azoo]

1 hour ago, Natie said:

You know, all this blame gets shifted on classic fans but all I see these days are modern fans making all the same mistakes, whereas the "Green Eyes >:o" era has long since gone away. Hell there was this angry outrage about a fangame changing to classic style on the creators own free will. Tons of bitter pessimism and paranoia any time the old hedgehog shows his face anywhere.

This is literally why I said this line of thinking and decision-making was a bad idea for Sega. 

It's not about which is better / more right, it's that both are a problem. Encouraging the division and making people play favorites only made things worse.

[Razule]

22 minutes ago, Iko said:

This would have never been a problem if they never made the Classic artstyle into a separated universe, that's where the problem lies. Why can't a classic styled game come out and be part of the modern timeline, happening after Forces? Why can't Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic be the same guy just drawn differently because of a design choice?

It would be very awkward after introducing him as past Sonic and then making him a version from another dimension in the past.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

 

23 minutes ago, Razule said:

It would be very awkward after introducing him as past Sonic and then making him a version from another dimension in the past.

You’d think that part would’ve been recognized before given the go ahead. It wasn’t difficult for people to accept Classic Sonic as the younger version of his Modern counterpart in Generations even with green eyes and the likes setting them apart.

[Dr. Mechano]

Mania was an exceptionally good game. Ergo, I want sequels to Mania. That we're probably not getting those is really disappointing.

The last modern-style game I felt was any good was Generations, roughly ten years ago. There are elements I enjoyed from Lost World, but as a game I still think it was pretty mediocre, while Forces veers into outright bad territory. I just wish we could have both, you know? Keep making modern 3D games. Keep making classic 2D games. Give both sets of fans (as well as people who enjoy both types of games) what they want.

Ah well. I'll close out by saying I always thought Eggman looked better with the cape.

[Josh]

5 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Mania was an exceptionally good game. Ergo, I want sequels to Mania. That we're probably not getting those is really disappointing.

[...] Keep making modern 3D games. Keep making classic 2D games. Give both sets of fans (as well as people who enjoy both types of games) what they want.

As someone who loves both types, I couldn't have said it any better, myself. Classic Sonic is thriving after Mania. The 3D series needs some work. But the way to fix it is NOT to cut down the branch that's healthy.

If the last well-regarded 3D game wasn't more than nine years ago, if fans who lean more toward that style had their expectations met, then I doubt so many of them would see Mania's success or Classic's existence as a problem to be fixed, or as a detriment to getting what they want. Making good 3D Sonic games is the solution. If you cut down Classic Sonic too, you're only going to make the OTHER side of the fandom feel like they're being disregarded.

[Wraith]

Crystalizing two of Sonic's past designs as immovable pillars in general is strange to me. Partially because the designs are just not that different from each other functionally no matter what people on here would have you believe, but also because ideally you'd continue to be flexible with Sonic's design. Sonic Unleashed's models has been pretty future proof for a while now but it's worth reexamining to see if they can improve him even more. 

[Razule]

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

Sonic Unleashed's models has been pretty future proof for a while now but it's worth reexamining to see if they can improve him even more. 

That'd be why Forces Sonic's spines are shorter.

[Iko]

When something like this exists:

You wonder if a difference between Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic even exists at all. Look at Eggman... That's Classic Eggman with the modern outfit...

Just make Modern and Classic one unique design, and adapt it to the artstyle of each specific game (if it's more realistic, go for a more detailed look, while if it's more cartoony, go for a smaller and more stylized look); It isn't that hard.

[Speedi]

19 minutes ago, Iko said:

When something like this exists:

You wonder if a difference between Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic even exists at all. Look at Eggman... That's Classic Eggman with the modern outfit...

Just make Modern and Classic one unique design, and adapt it to the artstyle of each specific game (if it's more realistic, go for a more detailed look, while if it's more cartoony, go for a smaller and more stylized look); It isn't that hard.

Seems like an unnecessary extra step, though. We already have two designs for more realistic or cartoony games, creating a fusion would probably just cause more of a dumpster fire to the people who liked those looks for him.

[Razule]

I used to like the idea of creating one Modern/Classic hybrid design ("Legacy Sonic", if you will), but seeing how people feel about the very slight changes to Modern's model in Lost World and Forces, I don't think it's a good idea. 

[Iko]

19 minutes ago, Speedi said:

Seems like an unnecessary extra step, though.

19 minutes ago, Speedi said:

We already have two designs for more realistic or cartoony games,

Exactly, there's no need for an extra step when those 2 designs already exist. The only real difference is the outfit of a couple of characters (Amy, Eggman).

When needed, they can just apply the classic style to the modern characters and call it a day (maybe the alternate outfits can be unlockables or something). Does Classic Eggman with a modern outfit look that ugly?

We already have 2 designs, one for the more cartoony games, but the problem is that the most cartoony game in the franchise (Lost World) used the more detailed and realistic look for the characters, and the reason is because they decided that the cartoony look is a different character. This makes no sense at all. Imagine Twilight Princess Link in Windwaker.

5 minutes ago, Razule said:

I used to like the idea of creating one Modern/Classic hybrid design ("Legacy Sonic", if you will), but seeing how people feel about the very slight changes to Modern's model in Lost World and Forces, I don't think it's a good idea. 

IMO this is a problem in the fanbase; people should be more open to those small changes. Mario had small changes from the very beginning and nobody has ever complained as far as I know.

[expansivelovestories]

10 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Mania was an exceptionally good game. Ergo, I want sequels to Mania. That we're probably not getting those is really disappointing.

 

5 hours ago, Josh said:

As someone who loves both types, I couldn't have said it any better, myself. Classic Sonic is thriving after Mania. The 3D series needs some work. But the way to fix it is NOT to cut down the branch that's healthy.

Making good 3D Sonic games is the solution. If you cut down Classic Sonic too, you're only going to make the OTHER side of the fandom feel like they're being disregarded.

Yes; i think this is definitely a situation where the reason it seems like there might not be another pixel art Sonic game to follow the incredible success of Mania is simply that they have not announced it yet!!   

The process with Mania was to prevent leaks, and give no indication whatsoever that such a game even existed until a comprehensive surprise reveal!  I think they would do the same this time around especially because they want to be sure the game is complete before setting a public release timetable!

 

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

18 hours ago, Iko said:

This would have never been a problem if they never made the Classic artstyle into a separated universe, that's where the problem lies. Why can't a classic styled game come out and be part of the modern timeline, happening after Forces? Why can't Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic be the same guy just drawn differently because of a design choice?

I think I agree with you but I suppose it is understandable how it happened. The art direction and just about everything else in the series by the mid to late 2000s had veered quite far away from the original games. I think the best choice would have been just to keep classic as the younger version of modern. I suspect though that SEGA themselves were actually flirting with the idea of moving on from traditional sonic games completely prior to Forces and that's what caused the split. Iizuka and numerous sonic team members came out before the games released and said they would be important in determining the direction for sonic's future. Tbh, I think many at SEGA were fatigued with dealing with this franchise since they really haven't understood it (at least in japan) from the get go. The leaks from forces suggested that the buddy character was meant to be a much bigger part of the game from the beginning and they were exploring potential directions without the traditional sonic at the forefront of things. That's how it appeared to me anyway. Mania really saved this franchise.

 

TLDR, I'm saying a lot, but I think the split came from a lack of confidence in the brand prior to Mania. And yes it's their fault and maybe it should never have happened. But then, they could just release solid games consistently enough and we wouldn't be talking about it.

[batson]

I'm a bit torn on Classic Sonic. On one hand I firmly believe that Sonic's 1998 redesign was unnecessary to begin with. I don't buy the idea that Classic Sonic would automatically look "awkward" in 3D, and as far as I'm concerned Sonic Generations proved that.

On the other hand, Sonic did of course in fact get redesigned, necessarily or not, and bringing back the classic design a million years later to co-exist with the modern version feels a little weird. Especially since the two designs apparently represents two entirely different characters. I mean geez, it's not as if this damn franchise had enough of an identity crisis as it is.

Honestly, if they really felt the need to bring back the old design at all, it would probably have been better to just retire the modern design entirely. That way instead of confusingly having two Sonic's existing at the same time we'd have just the one, namely the one that has the far better reputation among the general public.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

...or they could just not treat them as separate characters.

For all the division in this fandom, I think people would be less divisive on that front had they not did that at the very least. It may not solve the identity crisis, but it wouldn’t be as much of a mess as we see it now—granted, that might have a whole different impact altogether that we might not have seen coming.

[BadBehavior]

I already made a status about this but I saw someone say that the split between Classic & Modern could be handled like the split between Mega Man and Mega Man X. I get what he was going for but it doesn't assuage us new kids that one of them saw a successful revival and the other hasn't seen a new installment since 2004.

Off topic but could you imagine if this topic was made on Retro? Literally everyone would just be like "nuh-uh"

[Kuzu]

That doesn't even work because X isn't an alternate design, he is explicitly a different character from the original Mega Man. And X is from the future, and never interacts with OG at all. 

[Razule]

Could replace Modern Sonic with a series about Silver alongside Classic Sonic.

[Diogenes]

20 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

That doesn't even work because X isn't an alternate design, he is explicitly a different character from the original Mega Man. And X is from the future, and never interacts with OG at all. 

But now the Sonics are different people and only interact due to spacetime shenanigans, so it's not that different.

[Speedi]

8 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

But now the Sonics are different people and only interact due to spacetime shenanigans, so it's not that different.

Well, I mean X is in the future of Megaman's world and Classic is in another universe. The games directly build off of Megaman's timeline with the whole reploid and maverick war whereas Classic Sonic is just kinda stuck in his own universe so there's not much room for mixing and matching characters or story elements (At least as long as Sega wants to keep that stuff tied to a specific artstyle). 

[Diogenes]

I'm no expert on Megaman lore but as far as I know the connections between the two are pretty minimal and don't amount to much more than distant backstory for X and Zero. Regardless I don't think the tweet BadBehavior was referring to was saying that the Sonics and the Megamans could have the exact same relationships, just that two different takes on an idea can coexist.

[Josh]

8 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I'm no expert on Megaman lore but as far as I know the connections between the two are pretty minimal and don't amount to much more than distant backstory for X and Zero. Regardless I don't think the tweet BadBehavior was referring to was saying that the Sonics and the Megamans could have the exact same relationships, just that two different takes on an idea can coexist.

That was probably my tweet. And you're right. I wasn't saying the two are like-for-like, just that there are some parallels to be drawn. Set the lore aside: I really don't care if Classic Sonic is a younger version of Modern, or from an alternate universe. But I absolutely KNOW that he appeals to me in a different way and for different reasons than Modern does. We wouldn't have begged for Sega to bring him back, and we wouldn't have cried when they actually listened, if that weren't true. And that's where I drew my comparison.

The X series always skewed a little older, there was more focus on story and characterization, the stakes were higher, the gameplay was faster, and the setting was more realistic. X could do things that would feel egregiously out of place in a classic Mega Man game, just as Mega Man's more lighthearted, gameplay-centric tone would've felt out of place for X.

Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic similarly have built defining elements that appeal in different, sometimes incompatible ways. Most Sonic fans are fans of both, but we've always had a vocal contingent that skewed hard toward one or the other. As a fan of both, a lot of what I like about Modern Sonic games and what I'd like them to ideally be wouldn't fit in a Classic game, and vice-versa. I think trying to consolidate the brand into embodying BOTH is only going to make fans who primarily like one or the other feel disregarded, and erode the appeal of one style in favor of the other. In fact, I'm pretty sure Modern Sonic fans feel this is EXACTLY what's been happening: That what they like about the series is being disregarded in favor of the classic elements.

The solution, like I said, isn't to hack down the branch that's healthy, because that's only going to make fans OF those elements feel that what THEY like is being disregarded. I think the best solution is to build both of them, let them both play to their strongest, most distinct, most beloved elements, let them grow and evolve and IMPROVE independently of other. Imagine if Sonic Forces had met and exceeded modern fans' expectations, the way Mania did for classic fans. At this point, making that distinction is the best shot Sega has at satisfying the widest audience.

 

10 hours ago, BadBehavior said:

Off topic but could you imagine if this topic was made on Retro? Literally everyone would just be like "nuh-uh."

I jokingly considered making a topic there called, "Is Modern Sonic tapped out?" just to see what the response would be. :V