Should the Freedom Fighters come back to IDW Comics?

[Plumbers_Helper]

9 hours ago, Pengi said:

Bunnie never got an origin in the TV series, beyond her having been half robotisized at some point.

That's kind of debatable because the series did show how Bunnie was roboticized, it was animated and everything, but it never aired on television.

The original intro made for the pilot episode "HEADS OR TAILS" showed Sally shutting down the Roboticizer too late, resulting in Bunnie only being half roboticized. Unfortunately, the full intro is currently considered lost media. You could also debate whether or not the pilot is canon considering the pilot is slightly different to the actual series.

 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 hour ago, Meta77 said:

The big thing to ask is are they REALLY needed.

You could ask that same question for everyone else—Tails, Knuckles, Silver, Shadow, Vector, Espio, Amy, etc. People  thought the same with them years ago after Sonic 06.

And you’d get the same answer for the Freedom Fighters. The point being that it’s not about whether or not they’re needed, because that’s irrelevant in the grand scheme of things since actual reason people even ask that question has nothing to do with how necessary they are after their fans have jumped through all sorts of hoops and more to brainstorm other ways they can be useful only for people to ignore them and still keep asking that question.

[Pengi]

56 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Most the new cast fill old gaps left by old characters. Why have sally? Seriously? Amy has grown by leaps and bounds recently. Both leading the resistance and with Sega allowing her to be more front and center in t he action and yet still play up her romance with sonic. Tails genius is on cue and honestly there is no need for the old cast. As someone said eariler no matter what you do SOMEONE will always not be happy with the time they are shown, nor would they probably even be based on their old characters. They would not be front and center like in the Archie verse.

 

Amy and Sally are completely different characters who bring different things to the table.

With Amy, Ian Flynn was picking up from the very, very strange role Sonic Forces had positioned her in. He tried to make sense of it by showing that Amy was out of her element and in over her head, then transitioning her out of that role and back to default settings as a free spirit.

Sally isn't a free spirit, she's driven by duty, she is a natural leader and strategist. Her relationship with Sonic isn't a one-sided crush like Amy, admiration like Tails or begrudging respect like Knuckles and Shadow. Sally and Sonic are on an equal level, they like each other but have very different ways of doing things and keep each other on their toes. 

 

45 minutes ago, Plumbers_Helper said:

That's kind of debatable because the series did show how Bunnie was roboticized, it was animated and everything, but it never aired on television.

The original intro made for the pilot episode "HEADS OR TAILS" showed Sally shutting down the Roboticizer too late, resulting in Bunnie only being half roboticized. Unfortunately, the full intro is currently considered lost media. You could also debate whether or not the pilot is canon considering the pilot is slightly different to the actual series.

 

Right. It never saw air, so it didn't form part of Bunnie's backstory. As you say, it's fairly incompatible with the rest of the show anyway. (Just as the opening they DID use is completely incompatible with season 2's Blast to the Past.)

The heroes in the show didn't have much backstory, so it doesn't ring true to me when people question if the characters can work without their deep backstories.

[Mobotropolis]

Quote

Why have sally?

Hm. Was going to say that maybe she could act as the Head of State for the world being rebuilt under the Restoration's watch, but then I realized I don't really want her to be a Princess anymore for about the same reason I don't want Bunnie to come back as Antoine's girlfriend/wife. Sally being a Princess and destined to be the Queen of Mobius was such a large part of her character for so long that it seems like we've already explored just about every possible route that we can go with that aspect of her character. 

... and Sally being a Princess and the de-facto Head of State by birthright feels dated in this increasingly modern and progressive world. Sure Blaze is also a Princess, but not of this world. Her world is somewhat different than the world that Sonic and Friends seem to be working out of. 

Guess if I had to pick -- I'd say make her the General of the Restoration Forces. 

Overly Long Backstory Hidden: 

Spoiler

 

Jewel the Beetle is currently leading the Restoration and wearing many hats, but she has little experience with combat and prefers the administrative duties that come with running a city. So that makes her an ideal candidate for being the Governess or Head of State for the Restoration' operations. She may decide to put someone else in charge of organization the force will fight Eggman and other baddies. 

Sonic's not down for being bossed around. And the thought of leading a figurative army is overwhelming to most of his friends, so it has to be someone else. 

When word gets out and about that there was a town that did not suffer a single infection from the Zombot Outbreak it piques the interest of Jewel who sends Tangle and Whisper to investigate. Turns out that place is Knothole which is protected by Sally Acorn. 

Sally was born into a rich (but not noble) family that lived nearby. When Eggman started his war her parents and the rest of the rich people thought they could just wait things out in the luxury of their bunkers. The idea of doing nothing to save the innocent commoners when they had the resources to do so did not sit well with Sally, so she snuck out to do some good in the world. 

That worked until Sally is caught returning from one of her trips. 

Ashamed by Sally's behavior and fearful that her continued rebellion against their authority would lead to Eggman breaking through their defenses, the rich folks exiled her. Sally and a few of her closest supporters, mainly commoner attendants who serviced the wealthy, went into the woods and began to operate out of an old campground that they dubbed Knothole. Sally's well educated childhood, ability to think on her feet and knack for delegating allowed her to rise and lead the village, but she yearns for a chance to get out from behind her desk and take on a more proactive approach to dealing with Eggman. 

Jewel wants the exact opposite of that, so she invites Sally to Restoration HQ to overhaul its defenses and organize its budding Resistance. It takes her a while (and some doubts) to get her bearings but she eventually gains the mutual trust of Sonic and Friends. Her job? To help coordinate who does what and where when it comes to missions and strengthen the alliance between the various pockets fighting Eggman. 

So Jewel is the Head of Restoration and Sally is the Head of the New Resistance. 

 

 

[E-122-Psi]

6 hours ago, Mobotropolis said:

Oh my gosh yes. 

The only protentional I see in the concept is that Sally, Bunnie, Nicole, Rotor and Antoine may be brought back as individuals who each assist Sonic in their own way and may not (yet) be connected to each other outside of their shared historical origin. That would not only appeal to fans of the characters but challenge the writers to do more with them beyond what they were typecast to be in the Archie Comics. 

By being forced to look at them as individuals instead of collective parts to a team the writers can redevelop them as individual characters and rework their purpose into the dynamic, Sure, they can ultimately become members of the Resistance -- but at least make them work to get that far. 

One thing I didn't like about Ian's attempts to modernize these characters was how often stuff seemed to suddenly happen. Suddenly Sally was into Ken. Suddenly Bunnie and Antoine get married after a vague relationship. Suddenly Rotor was into (and out of) politics. Sudden Nicole looked completely different. Can we have some build up? Some progression? So it doesn't feel like a twist and turn at every corner? 

I feel like the comic had relied on the Freedom Fighters being motive driven for so long that they had problems placing proper personality based agency on them. Even when they had something within the long run it was usually connected to Sonic or some other more vibrant character. The SatAm series was relatively better for establishing foibles for them but even then it was clear they mostly just preferred the Sonic, Sally and (for some reason) Antoine mission plan dynamic. The later comics felt very much like them realising they were running out of steam and trying rapidly to throw shit at the wall and see what stuck, and even then a lot of it was circumstantial rather than actually broadening their personality traits.

Like for AGES throughout the pre and post reboot era Ian's team seemed to desperately try to meet the complaints that Sally was too flawless. But I don't think they really made any progress with it, they just gave her loads of amorphous idiot ball moments to make her more fallible, but they never really developed on a consistent foible, even in ideal opportunities they missed the mark. I think they only really fathomed her as the straight man and strategist in terms of character dynamics and couldn't really get out of that comfort zone, even just in terms of deconstructing that role (there was plenty of 'walk a mile in the other's shoes' moments they could have done between Sonic and Sally but never really tried that sort of humanisation between them).

The same issue I think kinda happened with Antoine after a while. They developed Antoine's character but at the same time his comical flaws were what made his character compelling in the first place, now he was just another competent set of hands. They had the odd call back to him being cowardly or stuck up but that was all it was, a call back, not a developed flawed moment or bit of agency. Like I feel like they could have done a compromise with Antoine being comical but gaining a place. Like maybe something like Po in Kung Fu Panda or Santino Marella in WWE where a joke character manages to weaponise their goofiness. Antoine could have been a fun Puss In Boots type, more competent and genuinely suave, but still a distinctively comical character, but instead their approach was to just homogenise him and make him like the other down to earth Freedom Fighters just following a mission plan with none of his own ambitions or delusions of grandeur.

And these were the two most developed Freedom Fighters. Bunnie and Rotor got scraps of character input at best, even in the show.

It really felt like the drama of the comics is slowly what came to define the Freedom Fighters as characters instead of their own personalities, which came back to bite them when they had to streamline it all. This problem can take place importing them to other medias where they would have even less of their old lore to fall back on. You take out Sally being a princess, a leader of a rebellion, her poignant backstory against Robotnik and her romantic ties with Sonic, how much of her old appeal is left? She's the straight man sure, but plenty games characters can take that role AND add their own spice to it anyway.

[Pengi]

6 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

She's the straight man sure, but plenty games characters can take that role AND add their own spice to it anyway.

Can they? A good handful of the games' core characters are very difficult to utilise in Sonic stories on a regular basis. Knuckles is tied to protecting the Master Emerald on Angel Island, Blaze and Marine are in another dimension, Silver is in the future, Shadow hasn't had a defined direction or purpose since he was working with GUN.

The only real straight-man characters that are freely available are Espio and Whisper, but the former is very reserved and the latter is very withdrawn. Sally is outspoken and can actually banter with Sonic and hold her own. It's a dynamic that doesn't exist with any of the game/IDW characters.

The only thing holding her back is that she doesn't have an ability gimmick, beyond her Nicole device. In the TV show's bible the big high-tech gimmick of Nicole was that it could display holograms. Maybe the Nicole device could get an ability boost and be something more like the Sheikah Slate in Zelda? 

[E-122-Psi]

1 hour ago, Pengi said:

Can they? A good handful of the games' core characters are very difficult to utilise in Sonic stories on a regular basis. Knuckles is tied to protecting the Master Emerald on Angel Island, Blaze and Marine are in another dimension, Silver is in the future, Shadow hasn't had a defined direction or purpose since he was working with GUN.

The only real straight-man characters that are freely available are Espio and Whisper, but the former is very reserved and the latter is very withdrawn. Sally is outspoken and can actually banter with Sonic and hold her own. It's a dynamic that doesn't exist with any of the game/IDW characters.

The only thing holding her back is that she doesn't have an ability gimmick, beyond her Nicole device. In the TV show's bible the big high-tech gimmick of Nicole was that it could display holograms. Maybe the Nicole device could get an ability boost and be something more like the Sheikah Slate in Zelda? 

Tails has been Sonic's straight man himself in many recent works, though with the benefit of having flaws of his own so he doesn't become as formulaic a presence (though the success of execution has varied from work to work). As mentioned they struggled to find any sort of dynamic for Sally outside being the straight man, to the point of making her a 'designated hero' even in situations she should have lost the argument or at least both sides should have gotten rebuke, they liked her being the 'sensible one', which isn't that compelling on its own. It also risked flanderizing Sonic into an arrogant Leeroy Jenkins after a while instead of just giving him necessary fallible moments because of how often they were pit together and how often Sally won.

SEGA characters have shown the ability to call out Sonic for his shortcomings without being limited to that dynamic like Sally ended up. Boom Tails and Amy arguably did the 'meticulous vs spontaneous' dynamic against Sonic more two way since their more strategic approaches sometimes had clearer vices as well, while as mentioned they struggled for ages trying to find a fundamental flaw to Sally, even in some cases there was a clear opening. Sally doesn't come off as flexible a character because they liked her being the straight man role to a fault.

The other three Freedom Fighters are lower key but they sort of follow the same structure if less stubbornly. They're the more laid back down to earth voices of reason. I remember a lot of the time in SatAm and early Archie, it often just felt like, Antoine aside, Sonic was the one 'naughty kid' among a bunch of well behaved adults, which generally made them less interesting and active characters. I get not everyone has to be bombastic and anarchic, but they barely had ANY big idiosyncrasies. I remember the Sonic Genesis comic being pretty bland because of this, an opportunity to see how they flexed in the games world, but they were just too damn passive.

[Kuzu]

Characters are allowed to have more than one defined role. 

Why are some of you being so obtuse about this every time this subject arises.

[E-122-Psi]

7 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Characters are allowed to have more than one defined role. 

Why are some of you being so obtuse about this every time this subject arises.

Because generally I feel like the Freedom Fighters struggle to get out of their one defined role even more than the SEGA cast do.

Again it felt like for most of later Archie they had no idea how to expand Sally outside 'straight man' and 'Sonic's girlfriend' while most of the others had EVEN LESS than that. I think I'm more liable to see cases where, say, Big the Cat ISN'T being dopey, or Amy ISN'T being lovesick but they put some palpable bit of character in place of it, than I am to see the Freedom Fighters branch out in characteristics.

[Kuzu]

20 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Because generally I feel like the Freedom Fighters struggle to get out of their one defined role even more than the SEGA cast do.

Again it felt like for most of later Archie they had no idea how to expand Sally outside 'straight man' and 'Sonic's girlfriend' while most of the others had EVEN LESS than that. I think I'm more liable to see cases where, say, Big the Cat ISN'T being dopey, or Amy ISN'T being lovesick but they put some palpable bit of character in place of it, than I am to see the Freedom Fighters branch out in characteristics.

There have literally been people telling you for years how other characters can function differently in another setting, you just don't care to understand that and just tend go off how about you personally feel hoping somebody agrees with you before leaving off in a huff.

You still refuse to concede and regurgitate the same statements and opinions and act if something is going to change.

 

Ian Flynn and Evan Stanley have already gone on record saying that they already have plans for the Freedom Fighters if they were ever added to the book and are just waiting for the greenlight from Sega.

But I'm sure you'll find something to nitpick about that too and then go on about how its personally offended you.

 

 

[E-122-Psi]

10 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

There have literally been people telling you for years how other characters can function differently in another setting, you just don't care to understand that and just tend go off how about you personally feel hoping somebody agrees with you before leaving off in a huff.

You still refuse to concede and regurgitate the same statements and opinions and act if something is going to change.

 

Ian Flynn and Evan Stanley have already gone on record saying that they already have plans for the Freedom Fighters if they were ever added to the book and are just waiting for the greenlight from Sega.

But I'm sure you'll find something to nitpick about that too and then go on about how its personally offended you.

I think there's more than one person here that's getting personally offended.

I get people like the Freedom Fighters, but I am perfectly willing to state my two cents on the whole matter. It doesn't mean I aggressively loathe them and treat them like they stole my milk money, I'm just putting my argument up whenever you guys insist on bringing them over to something because, as one previous poster stated, they come off as kind of overrated to me.

I mean I like Big the Cat but I'm not gonna dismiss everyone who says his gameplay sucks or his character is a one note blithering idiot as just some big hateful old meanie who doesn't know what they're talking about. They may even have points sometimes. It's about Sonic characters after all. They're welcome to state their opinions, but I'm welcome to state mine.

[Pengi]

9 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Tails has been Sonic's straight man himself in many recent works, though with the benefit of having flaws of his own so he doesn't become as formulaic a presence (though the success of execution has varied from work to work).

This has been a bad use of Tails though. At his core he's a little brother character, a plucky sidekick who admires Sonic. Smug, contrarian, know-it-all, straight man Tails is no fun and loses sight of what the character was meant to be.

Sally brings something different to the table. A Sonic/Sally scene wouldn't read like a Sonic/Tails scene, a Sonic/Amy scene or a Sonic/Knuckles scene. 

These are all characters that can be put to good use or poor use. The goal should always be to retain the fundamental truth of the character and make the best of it, to build upon the things that work and discard or downplay the things that don't.

Sally is duty driven, a natural leader and a planner. Sonic is a free spirit who dives into everything head-first. It's a contrast that works. The extra bit of fun is that, despite their differences, they like each other a lot and have a good banter. They keep each other on their toes.

What doesn't work with Sally is when she's played as a killjoy or a nag. The solution to that problem is to not write her that way. Keep the friction between them humorous and playful. Keep a balance between whose approach is "correct", or keep it ambiguous. If Sally is always right, then she's annoying. If she's always wrong then she's annoying and useless.

[E-122-Psi]

14 minutes ago, Pengi said:

What doesn't work with Sally is when she's played as a killjoy or a nag. The solution to that problem is to not write her that way. Keep the friction between them humorous and playful. Keep a balance between whose approach is "correct", or keep it ambiguous. If Sally is always right, then she's annoying. If she's always wrong then she's annoying and useless.

I think it's a bit of balance here, since while I do agree there should be a playful side maintained to Sally so she isn't flanderized, I think a big obstacle for her was that writers were unwilling to really delve into her uglier side. Sally at times COULD be pushy, self righteous and hypocritical and have a downright crappy temper. It's not just a case of bad writing, these are things that just came inherent to her archetype, and yet it felt like after maybe Season One of SatAm, the writers were in denial they ever existed, sometimes even when problems occurred because of these idiosyncrasies. This if anything just worsened them because it meant they couldn't colour or humanise these aspects, and she never really suffered repercussions for them. I think this is how Sally can suffer the seemingly contradicting complaints of both being 'too boring/perfect' and yet also 'bossy/bitchy'. She was 'bossy' in an unhumanised way that was never treated as a flaw.

It's like how Sonic is usually likeably cocky, but he has to have those odd moments he is just flat out arrogant or reckless and needs to get taken down a peg to humanise him, not too often or in too exaggerated doses of course, that would make him insufferable, just enough to keep him fallible and get a sympathetic light on him, not to mention so his flaws coloured his personality a little. Making it so Sonic NEVER goes too far kinda makes him a bit too boring and enabled (take say his Sonic X characterisation). Sally can be balanced by default but I think they needed to address the more obnoxious side of her SOMETIMES for the good of balancing her personality and dynamics. If they maintained a more dire premise for Sally, it would be VERY easy to make such flaws sympathetic after all, she just wants to protect everyone, but she does still need calling out sometimes to address that.

[Pengi]

 

45 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I think a big obstacle for her was that writers were unwilling to really delve into her uglier side. Sally at times COULD be pushy, self righteous and hypocritical and have a downright crappy temper.

---

Sally can be balanced by default but I think they needed to address the more obnoxious side of her SOMETIMES for the good of balancing her personality and dynamics. If they maintained a more dire premise for Sally, it would be VERY easy to make such flaws sympathetic after all, she just wants to protect everyone, but she does still need calling out sometimes to address that.

I think that would make for an unappealing character and a miserable reading experience.

[E-122-Psi]

16 minutes ago, Pengi said:

 

I think that would make for an unappealing character and a miserable reading experience.

I think it depends. Season One Sally having an intentional hubris I think gave her a little more fallible charm and whimsy (helped by them not overdoing like say, early Archie). At the very least it was better than her having one through indirect writing and always getting off for it scot free like in Archie.

Granted there's lots of characters I enjoy that have an 'inferiority superiority complex' (Amy in Sonic Boom, Rabbit in Winnie the Pooh, Rebecca in Talespin, Twilight Sparkle in MLP). I'm not saying of course that Sally has to be exaggerated to THEIR level of hubris, but I do think they have to have moments those elements are called out and turned into traits proper (while still keeping that earnest soft side to her of course) especially since like I said, ultimately Sally still often came off as smug, forceful and hypocritical anyway, and it would have been way better to just go with it, join the dots in her personality, and likely get a sympathetic epiphany from her about than just try to sweep it under the rug and make her a karma houdini.

Even better if those moments could have led to some actual humanisation. Like let's say they did a role reversal of Spark of Life, where Sally called out Sonic for being reckless, but then was put on the spot for doing the same thing, which is perfectly in character for her, but now she is made to accept her hypocrisy after walking a mile in Sonic's shoes, she just wants to protect Sonic but sometimes it is easier to practice than it is to preach. That could have been EXTREMELY impactful to Sonic and Sally's dynamic and humanising her 'bossiness' some fans berate her over, rather than just trying to insist Sally is consistently the cautious one (when let's be fair sometimes she isn't).

Arrogance and temper are hard facets to get right, hence so many depictions of Sonic that varying fans claim are either too unlikeably egotistical or come off as too nice to the point of being a boy scout. There are times writers miss the mark and just make Sonic insufferable, but I think having times Sonic is conveyed as too cocksure for his own good are for the best than trying to pretend it isn't a vice to his personality, because let's face it, either way, Sonic is inherently cocky, just like Sally is inherently 'bossy'.

[Kuzu]

1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

I think there's more than one person here that's getting personally offended.

I get people like the Freedom Fighters, but I am perfectly willing to state my two cents on the whole matter. It doesn't mean I aggressively loathe them and treat them like they stole my milk money, I'm just putting my argument up whenever you guys insist on bringing them over to something because, as one previous poster stated, they come off as kind of overrated to me.

I mean I like Big the Cat but I'm not gonna dismiss everyone who says his gameplay sucks or his character is a one note blithering idiot as just some big hateful old meanie who doesn't know what they're talking about. They may even have points sometimes. It's about Sonic characters after all. They're welcome to state their opinions, but I'm welcome to state mine.

Usually, when you get into a debate with somebody; at some point, you agree to disagree and just move on. 

Not continuously trying to argue down the opposition in some vain attempt at validating your opinion. 

You say you like them, yet you constantly go out of your way of criticizing any opinion that vouches for them and refuse to concede on that. 

It's really kind of tiring having to constantly read "BUT M FEELINGS" whenever this subject comes up.

 

But Sonic fans being weirdly obtuse about this series is something that doesn't surprise me at this point. I'm not really interested in arguing this with you, because I know from experience that it's going to go nowhere; I just gave my piece.

The Freedom Fighters CAN work, and no amount of posturing from you is gonna change that. 

[Mauro Fonseca]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Ian Flynn and Evan Stanley have already gone on record saying that they already have plans for the Freedom Fighters if they were ever added to the book and are just waiting for the greenlight from Sega.

 

You're overstating. What Ian said was there's been informal talks between staff with various ideas on how to do it. Ian himself probably has like two or three elevator pitches. All of these amount to just fans talking like in this thread, since Sega won't allow it. If Sega ever does, which I think they'll do but probably more towards the end of the 2030s or something, then all those pitch ideas will be discussed more seriously and workshopped into something cohesive, together with Sega.

 

Just correcting you because you make it sound like he's got a full written plan and scripts and so on fully coordinated with the entire staff and is just ready to go any time (edit- which to be fair he probably does, my point's more that that's kinda useless- it'd still need to go through editorial, the other staff, Sega, etc. It's just a personal idea of his, and his, not Evan's), which I feel might cause a mismanagement of expectations. Again, no one is saying this is impossible to happen, I even think it's inevitable to a point, but you really shouldn't be holding your breath because it's not happening any time soon.

 

EDIT EDIT: Sorry I keep rethinking how to phrase this lol. My point is, you seem to have the impression the whole thing's already planned out and coordinated and discussed amongst the creatives and editorial, and just needs Sega's go ahead. And no, it's much closer to this thread- "hm maybe we could do this? Eh, maybe we could do that. Oh you think we could do this other thing instead? Oh that's cool. Ah well I hope Sega lets it happen some time", and Ian's tried to make it clear that that's the point things are at so as to not have people wait with bated breath.

[Pengi]

28 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I think it depends. Season One Sally having an intentional hubris I think gave her a little more fallible charm and whimsy (helped by them not overdoing like say, early Archie). At the very least it was better than her having one through indirect writing and always getting off for it scot free like in Archie.

Granted there's lots of characters I enjoy that have an 'inferiority superiority complex' (Amy in Sonic Boom, Rabbit in Winnie the Pooh, Rebecca in Talespin, Twilight Sparkle in MLP). I'm not saying of course that Sally has to be exaggerated to THEIR level of hubris, but I do think they have to have moments those elements are called out and turned into traits proper (while still keeping that earnest soft side to her of course) especially since like I said, ultimately Sally still often came off as smug, forceful and hypocritical anyway, and it would have been way better to just go with it, join the dots in her personality, and likely get a sympathetic epiphany from her about than just try to sweep it under the rug and make her a karma houdini.

Even better if those moments could have led to some actual humanisation. Like let's say they did a role reversal of Spark of Life, where Sally called out Sonic for being reckless, but then was put on the spot for doing the same thing, which is perfectly in character for her, but now she is made to accept her hypocrisy after walking a mile in Sonic's shoes, she just wants to protect Sonic but sometimes it is easier to practice than it is to preach. That could have been EXTREMELY impactful to Sonic and Sally's dynamic and humanising her 'bossiness' some fans berate her over, rather than just trying to insist Sally is consistently the cautious one (when let's be fair sometimes she isn't).

Arrogance and temper are hard facets to get right, hence so many depictions of Sonic that varying fans claim are either too unlikeably egotistical or come off as too nice to the point of being a boy scout. There are times writers miss the mark and just make Sonic insufferable, but I think having times Sonic is conveyed as too cocksure for his own good are for the best than trying to pretend it isn't a vice to his personality, because let's face it, either way, Sonic is inherently cocky, just like Sally is inherently 'bossy'.

Sonic isn't the kind of series where characters stand around and call each other out.

Nobody's sitting Knuckles down to discuss his anger management problem.

Intentionally writing Sally to be unlikable so that other characters can call her out on it would be poor use of the character, in a series that's about cartoon animals having adventures fighting robots.

[E-122-Psi]

12 minutes ago, Pengi said:

Sonic isn't the kind of series where characters stand around and call each other out.

Nobody's sitting Knuckles down to discuss his anger management problem.

Intentionally writing Sally to be unlikable so that other characters can call her out on it would be poor use of the character, in a series that's about cartoon animals having adventures fighting robots.

Knuckles being bad tempered or a bone head is an in-universe flaw however. Even if he doesn't get interventions or serious dressing downs over it, the other cast do acknowledge it and it does come back to bite him in many plots. Sally being condescending or a hypocrite was something the narrative always tried to sweep under the rug despite how often it happened. If anything that makes her less compatible with the cartoon format because the writing refuses to let her be targeted for any quirks or bad behaviour.

Sally is similarly all about calling out Sonic's hubris and recklessness, so why can the roles never be reversed, not even on playful terms like say, Amy getting teased mercilessly over her pushiness causing the dilemma in Closed Door Policy? There's a difference between making a character a toxic jerk that gets read the riot act non stop and a character is naturally flawed and is acknowledged as such by the other characters.

I feel like it would have been far more natural to have Sonic tease Sally in those occasional moments she was reckless herself (even in just a comical "Well that doesn't matter because YOU have a gambling problem!" sort of way), than for them to just go 'Nope, didn't happen, Sally doesn't 'do' reckless or hypocritical, stricken from the records'. It made Sally look like a jerk sue that not even the biggest troll of the hero cast would dare mock when it was called for.

[Kuzu]

24 minutes ago, The KKM said:

You're overstating. What Ian said was there's been informal talks between staff with various ideas on how to do it. Ian himself probably has like two or three elevator pitches. All of these amount to just fans talking like in this thread, since Sega won't allow it. If Sega ever does, which I think they'll do but probably more towards the end of the 2030s or something, then all those pitch ideas will be discussed more seriously and workshopped into something cohesive, together with Sega.

 

Just correcting you because you make it sound like he's got a full written plan and scripts and so on fully coordinated with the entire staff and is just ready to go any time (edit- which to be fair he probably does, my point's more that that's kinda useless- it'd still need to go through editorial, the other staff, Sega, etc. It's just a personal idea of his, and his, not Evan's), which I feel might cause a mismanagement of expectations. Again, no one is saying this is impossible to happen, I even think it's inevitable to a point, but you really shouldn't be holding your breath because it's not happening any time soon.

 

EDIT EDIT: Sorry I keep rethinking how to phrase this lol. My point is, you seem to have the impression the whole thing's already planned out and coordinated and discussed amongst the creatives and editorial, and just needs Sega's go ahead. And no, it's much closer to this thread- "hm maybe we could do this? Eh, maybe we could do that. Oh you think we could do this other thing instead? Oh that's cool. Ah well I hope Sega lets it happen some time", and Ian's tried to make it clear that that's the point things are at so as to not have people wait with bated breath.

No...I just said that he has ideas that he needs a greenlight to go through with. 

I don't think I implied anything else. 

12 minutes ago, Pengi said:

Sonic isn't the kind of series where characters stand around and call each other out.

Nobody's sitting Knuckles down to discuss his anger management problem.

Intentionally writing Sally to be unlikable so that other characters can call her out on it would be poor use of the character, in a series that's about cartoon animals having adventures fighting robots.

I feel like this is in response to all of the times Sally has called Sonic out for his reckless behavior, so fans want her to "pay for it" for daring to call out the main character or something to that effect. 

Like I said, Sonic fans are weird man. 

[E-122-Psi]

5 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I feel like this is in response to all of the times Sally has called Sonic out for his reckless behavior, so fans want her to "pay for it" for daring to call out the main character or something to that effect. 

Like I said, Sonic fans are weird man. 

Well it kinda sticks out when there's plenty of times Sally herself was reckless or arrogant and yet was NEVER called out for it like Sonic was or compared to in her dynamic with him. No one likes a character that gets away with being a hypocrite.

Like Sonic did need to be called out sometimes, it was obvious, but why did Sally deserve a double standard?

[Kuzu]

Thank you for proving my point :V

This whole bullshit about "Characters needing to have their flaws called out" is just a very thinly veiled excuse to make Sally suffer because fans hate the idea of somebody criticizing Sonic at all. 

[antyep]

3 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Knuckles being bad tempered or a bone head is an in-universe flaw however. Even if he doesn't get interventions or serious dressing downs over it, the other cast do acknowledge it and it does come back to bite him in many plots. Sally being bossy or a hypocrite was something the narrative always tried to sweep under the rug despite how often it happened. If anything that makes her less compatible with the cartoon format because the writing refuses to let her be targeted for any quirks or bad behaviour.

Sally is similarly all about calling out Sonic's hubris and recklessness, so why can the roles never be reversed, not even on playful terms like say, Amy getting teased mercilessly over her pushiness causing the dilemma in Closed Door Policy? There's a difference between making a character a toxic jerk that gets read the riot act non stop and a character is naturally flawed and is acknowledged as such by the other characters.

I feel like it would have been far more natural to have Sonic tease Sally in those occasional moments she was reckless herself (even in just a comical "Well that doesn't matter because YOU have a gambling problem!" sort of way), than for them to just go 'Nope, didn't happen, Sally doesn't 'do' reckless or hypocritical, stricken from the records'. It made Sally look like a jerk sue that not even the biggest troll of the hero cast would dare mock when it was called for.

So basically, you like for Sally's negative traits to be magnified so characters can finally call them out? This kind of thing is something I see in Sonamy fics where they pretty much magnify her negative traits to eleven just to make her look bad. I don't think examples like Rebecca Cunningham is a good example, as if I recall, she doesn't get her comeuppance that much. Most of the time, her schemes end bad and Baloo takes the fall while she gets off scott free. Sure she gets called out and get some punishment, but they're mostly slap on the wrists. And having Sally be like how she was in the early comics isn't a good idea, as she seems like the Sally many anti-Sally fans complain about; a total nag who tends to stay at home or get kidnapped, and she shows off her royalty and bosses people around.

[E-122-Psi]

11 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Thank you for proving my point :V

This whole bullshit about "Characters needing to have their flaws called out" is just a very thinly veiled excuse to make Sally suffer because fans hate the idea of somebody criticizing Sonic at all. 

Thank you for completely MISSING mine.

I said Sonic deserves critique sometimes. Hell sometimes his character is all the better from having those times his ego has severe repercussions, it turns it into a sympathetic element to him and prevents him seeming all powerful. And yet when someone claims Sally should suffer the same for similar flaws, it is being 'too mean' and bad mouthing the character just for favouritism to Sonic.

10 minutes ago, antyep said:

So basically, you like for Sally's negative traits to be magnified so characters can finally call them out? This kind of thing is something I see in Sonamy fics where they pretty much magnify her negative traits to eleven just to make her look bad. I don't think examples like Rebecca Cunningham is a good example, as if I recall, she doesn't get her comeuppance that much. Most of the time, her schemes end bad and Baloo takes the fall while she gets off scott free. Sure she gets called out and get some punishment, but they're mostly slap on the wrists. And having Sally be like how she was in the early comics isn't a good idea, as she seems like the Sally many anti-Sally fans complain about; a total nag who tends to stay at home or get kidnapped, and she shows off her royalty and bosses people around.

The problem to me is that a lot of the time, Sally seemed unlikeable anyway, as mentioned she got away with being condescending, arrogant or hypocritical in spades, just the plot never acknowledged it as a characteristic of her's, so it remained undercooked and even worse, Sally looked like a karma houdini. I'd say Sally came off far worse for that than she would a few instances she PAYS for her vices, the only difference in depiction is coming off more boring because she got to retain her dignity.

Like a few times Sally was reckless (these DID happen in some issues) and they were similar in use, but maybe beforehand, Sally had chastised Sonic for doing the same (which also DID happen), but now during the ending Sonic is teasing her relentlessly for not meeting her own ideals and while she is sorry and acknowledges her contradiction, she is in a characteristic huff about it because her pride is singed and Sonic is SAVOURING every moment of it. Not bitchy or blaming it all on someone else like in early Archie, just showing a bit of a fallible 'not so above it all' side and adding a new light to their dynamic.

Actually I'm pretty sure an episode of Talespin did this sort of plot (the spy episode).

[Kuzu]

9 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Thank you for completely MISSING mine.

I said Sonic deserves critique sometimes. Hell sometimes his character is all the better from having those times his ego has severe repercussions, it turns it into a sympathetic element to him and prevents him seeming all powerful. And yet when someone claims Sally should suffer the same for similar flaws, it is being 'too mean' and bad mouthing the character just for favouritism to Sonic.

 

It's the fact that you seem so weirdly fixated on this idea that Sally "needs to be called out" over literally anything else being discussed here is why your point is so weird. 

I also know for a fact that people who hate Sally despise the idea of anybody being able to call out Sonic in any capacity.