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ryu238

What do you think of Dillian Thomas rant against Ian Flynn

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On one hand his series sold more under his writing and has had multiple spin offs: https://sonicsourceblog.wordpress.com/2018/05/07/idw-sonic-sales-numbers-breakdown/

https://sonicsourceblog.wordpress.com/category/sales/

https://www.sonicstadium.org/2018/05/idw-sonic-smashes-sales-expectations-becomes-best-selling-sonic-comics-on-record/zz

 

So he must be doing something right.

 

On the other, is he really kill happy as Dillian claims? https://www.youtube.com/J6VNrBrxSpQ

And is he a bad at characterization? https://www.youtube.co /_NgP2I33ugY

 

Admittly in that last video, when he complains about Starline's then new electro spurs,, he should remember that Penders was far worse with characters introducing powers out of nowhere: 

At least Starline mentions that they were not yet field tested, implying they were a recent invention...made after he lost the Warp Topaz, witch btw, he says Starline needed to prove himself without it, and we know he is a brilliant inventor...he he writes it off as Flynn "giving his ocs all the powers"

 

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1. If you want to discuss someone's opinion , it would be nice if you gave a link to that opinion.

2. I don't like format this guy picked, it's similar to "Cinema Sins", picking out every little thing, no matter how trivial or forced.  It's not meaningful discussion, it's nitpicking.

3. But overall: yes, Flynn isn't perfect. Some decisions he made are controversial, especially during his early days. Sometimes he was just following orders from editors, we'll never know for sure which ones.

Most broad criticism is that Flynn torched old Archie in order to mold it into his image. I do agree it wasn't the most tasteful way, but ultimately it was quickest way to get comics into better direction. I mean quality jump between 159 and 160 is so high, it's worth all the nitpick this guy has.

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I cannot stand Dillin. He's deluded and insufferable. Anyways, there's plenty of things to criticize Flynn for. Right off the bat, Dillin is very nitpicky, whining about the comics being more like the games, which is something a lot of fans actually wanted. He also criticizes Tracey's artstyle, which has nothing to do with Flynn's writing, and Scourge's jacket getting flames of all things. His "proof" that Ian has no respect for the series is... Sonic laughing at Crocbot. He's also mad about Crocbot, Mecha, and Sir Connery getting killed off. Y'know, characters that nobody cared about. I stopped listening after this. I'm no writer myself, so it's hard for me to really criticize someone's writing, but like I said, Ian Flynn did make some choices that I know I didn't like, and I've seen plenty of others with similar complaints. But this really isn't it. Dillin has a history of being mad for the sake of being mad, so I'd take all his "criticisms" with a grain of salt.

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Oh so he's some Anti-Flynn guy? Then why should I care what he has to say? I mean there's a difference between giving criticism and just being an ass about a comic book writer you don't like.

Also since they're usually tied if he doesn't believe in the Mandates I'll say what I always do read literally any other thing he's written. None of the problems people regularly complain about in his Sonic work tend to be present in his other work. Almost like Sega is really strict or something. 

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10 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

I mean quality jump between 159 and 160 is so high, it's worth all the nitpick this guy has.

No joke, I remember going from basically reading the comic out of habit/curiosity more than anything to actively champing at the bit for each new issue practically overnight. 
 

I don't think I was even aware of the shift at Archie until I noticed how I was enjoying it so much more on a consistent level and did some digging, starting with the credits page.

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2 hours ago, KingScoopaKoopa said:

No joke, I remember going from basically reading the comic out of habit/curiosity more than anything to actively champing at the bit for each new issue practically overnight. 
 

I don't think I was even aware of the shift at Archie until I noticed how I was enjoying it so much more on a consistent level and did some digging, starting with the credits page.

Same. I never paid attention to the credits (hell I'm an idiot and though Tracy was the games artist when I first saw his work) but after awhile I started to actually read the credits and noticed the change.

I'll admit I might be a bit of a shill for Ian at times but it's because I legitimately think his work is that good. Though it is ironic because if I was to recommend any of his work I would go for Mega Man or New Crusaders or his various TMNT contributions before Sonic because again those are projects where he clearly had more freedom especially Crusaders and TMNT so they're way better examples of his skill IMHO.

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So he defends characters no one else cares about, and how many consider it a jump in quality? Yeah crockbot was ridiculous in the Tails mini, only looking badass on the covers, but him and octobot fused was kinda ridiculous and again both were comedy villains in the Tails mini. 

 

Sir Connery at least got a heroic sacrifice and saved everyone when he went out. 

I suppose people were tired of Mogoul as he was turned into a joke for a bit, before his reinvention as a patient Kingpin like character. Loved how he made Nagus more compelling later on too. Fiona works as a villain, though her turn was a tad rushed, though I like how the story pointed out she seemed to be attracted to Evil Sonic before moving to the regular one. 

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Ian Flynn isn't perfect. He makes mistakes and he knows it, some stuff he made were controversial and so on. And I say it as a fan of Ian. 

Dillin seems to be very nitpicky, judgemental and somewhat sympathetic to the "Anti-Flynn" guys and girls who think that Flynn Just wants to destroy Sally Acorn and the legacy of the old american Western Sonic canon. In the end it's just badly disguised shipping wars.

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On 4/17/2021 at 10:57 AM, HoloLynx said:

and Sir Connery getting killed off. 

Never heard of this guy, but I have heard this silly little "gotcha" before and sorry, killing off someone like Connery doesn't show contempt for Archie. To even imply that Connery is some beloved old guard character who was on anyone's radar before Ian took up the pen is a bad faith argument. To bring back someone like Crocbot, and especially the horse paladin requires a level of nerdy investment and respect for old Archie most people probably don't have. I can respect a writer who takes a look at a one-off thrown away character like that and says "I'm gonna make them care about this horse... when I turn him to glue." 

Like is it reasonable to be mad he killed off the horse knight, when he's the only reason the horse knight's here in the first place? 

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I will admit Sir Connery is kinda a random character to bring back and kill off. He's just this random Knight who showed up once and neve again until Ian dusted him off and killed him off.

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Ian's run is full of deep cuts. Harvey Who, Shard, hell even turning St. John into an out and out villain stems from the fact he shows up in Naugus' inaugural issue wearing a dusty travelers cloak. 

I have my criticisms which are Kind of the standard Josh Wheaton hang ups, action fatigue rushing to each shake up too quick without fully exploring the new status quo, but I never got the impression that Ian was anything but a fan of what came before him.  

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1 hour ago, SBR2 said:

I will admit Sir Connery is kinda a random character to bring back and kill off. He's just this random Knight who showed up once and neve again until Ian dusted him off and killed him off.

He was basically hired in the first place to help clean up things behind the scenes and then spent about 20 issues doing so in the actual comic. The Darkest Storm in particular was a editor mandate all about cleaning up a bunch of loose ends from the comic's long history and doing it in no more than four issues. And it's also worth noting that he was planning on sparing at least one character(Tig Stripe) that was almost certainly killed off screen but that fell through for whatever reason.

 

 

5 hours ago, ryu238 said:

So he defends characters no one else cares about, and how many consider it a jump in quality? Yeah crockbot was ridiculous in the Tails mini, only looking badass on the covers, but him and octobot fused was kinda ridiculous and again both were comedy villains in the Tails mini. 

 

Sir Connery at least got a heroic sacrifice and saved everyone when he went out. 

I suppose people were tired of Mogoul as he was turned into a joke for a bit, before his reinvention as a patient Kingpin like character. Loved how he made Nagus more compelling later on too. Fiona works as a villain, though her turn was a tad rushed, though I like how the story pointed out she seemed to be attracted to Evil Sonic before moving to the regular one. 

Croctobot was actually something Karl Bollers came up with for future stories, but left to the wayside when he did. Flynn ended up needing something as a middle point for his first issue(the thirs being Scourge and the first later ending up being Bean and Bark) and the intimating yet ridiculous fusion idea happened to fit. 

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1 hour ago, Cuz said:

Ian's run is full of deep cuts. Harvey Who, Shard, hell even turning St. John into an out and out villain stems from the fact he shows up in Naugus' inaugural issue wearing a dusty travelers cloak. 

I have my criticisms which are Kind of the standard Josh Wheaton hang ups, action fatigue rushing to each shake up too quick without fully exploring the new status quo, but I never got the impression that Ian was anything but a fan of what came before him.  

Some of the rushing wasn't just down to him--IDW seemingly was, but with Archie, he was sometimes told to hurry certain things up to get to a particular story. See House of Cards, which was a more fleshed out arc that involved more of the characters reacting and debating their perspectives, becoming just the two or so issue conflict between Sonic & Tails and Elias & the Prowers so they can get to Enerjak Reborn faster.

 

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2 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Some of the rushing wasn't just down to him--IDW seemingly was, 

 

Fair point, though as you noted, I find my criticisms carry over to IDW a good deal. So I think it's fair to pen them as a feature of Ian's work over any executive meddling. 

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On 4/18/2021 at 4:12 PM, Cuz said:

Ian's run is full of deep cuts. Harvey Who, Shard, hell even turning St. John into an out and out villain stems from the fact he shows up in Naugus' inaugural issue wearing a dusty travelers cloak. 

I have my criticisms which are Kind of the standard Josh Wheaton hang ups, action fatigue rushing to each shake up too quick without fully exploring the new status quo, but I never got the impression that Ian was anything but a fan of what came before him.  

Um he didn't cut Harvey or Shard.

On 4/18/2021 at 8:12 PM, Cuz said:

Fair point, though as you noted, I find my criticisms carry over to IDW a good deal. So I think it's fair to pen them as a feature of Ian's work over any executive meddling. 

Except the guy noted Archie rushed him too, so in both cases it is executive meddling.

 

On that note, guys like this like to claim Archie Sonic outsold Marvel: 

But the only evidence is this form about issue 11 in 1994, and that was only from K-Mart (supposedly): 

Archie_proof.jpg

Is there any truth to this?

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18 hours ago, ryu238 said:

But the only evidence is this form about issue 11 in 1994, and that was only from K-Mart (supposedly): 

I honestly can't be bothered to watch the video because a channel that appears dedicated to hating Ian is not going to be honest about what information they're presenting anyway.

The way comic sales are tracked is a little different. I don't know about that particular letter, but I assume it's reflecting K-Mart's sales specifically, but K-Mart is a different entity from the Direct Market, which is what Diamond distributes through and where comic book stores order their supplies. DM, from what I understood a few years ago, works on a pre-order system and the number of units shipped out are the total sales of a given book every month.

It's also why variant covers are more common these days; it's more units produced in a smaller amount that requires a store to order more copies to get them so that raises the overall number of units sold, so stores mark up the variants because of this. Archie even tried a particularly stupid version of this one year where they published additional endings for variants just to try to get people to buy multiple copies. It blew up in their faces, and I for one was happy about that.

Stores like K-Mart, Wal-Mart, various bookstores etc. are not a part of the Direct Market, so their sales numbers are different. Archie books (not exclusively Sonic) traditionally sold better in newsstands from what I remember and they also sold their own books through subscriptions. I don't know how easy it is to normally track those numbers; I believe Archie used to publish sales information annually in the Sonic books that probably gives a better picture of their distribution than Comicchron (which tracks only the direct market) does. 

1994 is also the peak of Sonic's original popularity so I think it's fair to say it's not surprising a kids book based on the character would sell well in places kids were more likely to get their comics at the time (which also happened to be a place Sonic games were sold at the time). While it's impressive that Sonic outsold a Marvel book one month, this is only accounting for K-Mart's sales numbers. It's not indicative of any other stores or the direct market. Maybe that was a decent time for the book since it was early on and Sonic 3 had just come out but I don't think it was the norm.

If Ken Penders is reliable about some of his old accounts, it was actually a big deal when Wal-Mart stopped carrying comic books for a time in the late 90s because that probably affected Archie's bottom line worse than other publishers. Penders actually blamed this happening for the Knuckles book being cancelled, and while I don't doubt this affected several plans and it's why the Sonic Adventure arc is even weirder than it already was, the book also typically didn't sell well in general and certainly not as well as the mainline Sonic book.

I'm willing to admit I don't know all the specifics, so this is more of a surface understanding I have from things I've read or heard over the years. Regardless, I don't think videos like the ones you keep linking are really worth much or any consideration because they seem like they're just looking for anything that supports a point they want to make.

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18 hours ago, Rabid-Coot said:

Deep cuts aren't about removals they're using more obscure pieces of work.

Oh...

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Don’t know much about this guy aside from the fact that his Ian Flynn hateboner centric videos are always in my recommendations.

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Dillin seems to hate Flynn partially out of political opposition, though I don’t know many details of what the two do and don’t support that would cause the schism and even if I did it would be inappropriate to bring up here.  

Moving along, I think Dillin’s “SEGA is stupid” video is a commendable rant against unfair corporate policies, despite perhaps a needlessly provocative name, so I won’t say Dillin is totally delusional.  However, I don’t really have nearly enough familiarity with Archie Sonic to weigh in on Flynn’s writing.  I look at Archie Sonic dispassionately from well outside of it and all I can really see is a cacophony of unnecessary original characters.  A lot of stuff about this brand, I enjoy exploring because because it makes it, if nothing else, fascinating, but Archie Sonic is generally something I steer clear of because it’s stories provoke such a constant sense of “Who is this?” that I would have no idea where to start in order to explain that.  
 

Suffice it to say then that it’s hard for me to get mad at Flynn for throwing all of that out, but also I’m not sure how much of that was even his desire vs SEGA’s.  Either way, simple ability to remove things also doesn’t make someone a good writer, even if it makes the series more approachable.  I’m neutral on Flynn.

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On 4/18/2021 at 5:21 PM, DabigRG said:

Croctobot was actually something Karl Bollers came up with for future stories, but left to the wayside when he did. Flynn ended up needing something as a middle point for his first issue(the thirs being Scourge and the first later ending up being Bean and Bark) and the intimating yet ridiculous fusion idea happened to fit. 

Does Dillian consider him a Pender's creation?

Also, some of these anti-Flynn people are cringe lords: 

He literally says here: "Playing forces is better because you get a better story with a good game"

 

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