Sonic Frontiers - Teaser Trailer

[___]

Does anyone remember that leak a couple years back pre-Forces (from someone who was apparently quite credible) that said that Sega was working on a Sonic game that was neither boost nor parkour? When Forces was revealed to be a boost game everyone assumed that the leaked game was just an abandoned proof of concept demo. 

Does anyone think that maybe this is what that was? That maybe they saw Forces' middling reception and decided to dust it off and have another go at it? There had already been work done on it, so I could see Sega wanting to be economical and rolling with something they already have in a cupboard somewhere.

[Sonikko]

1 hour ago, Gloved Animal said:

Does anyone remember that leak a couple years back pre-Forces (from someone who was apparently quite credible) that said that Sega was working on a Sonic game that was neither boost nor parkour? When Forces was revealed to be a boost game everyone assumed that the leaked game was just an abandoned proof of concept demo. 

Des anyone think that maybe this is what that was? That maybe they saw Forces' middling reception and decided to dust it off and have another go at it? There had already been work done on it, so I could see Sega wanting to be economical and rolling with something they already have in a cupboard somewhere.

Didn't that end up being RoL?

[NoKaine]

I can believe that SEGA / Sonic Team had an idea they were thinking of, since I also think that they fell into Forces for various, less-than-inspired reasons (including short development time and small level design team, backlash towards Lost World and the fact that the Sonic Wars concept was very different). 

Whatever concept it is probably wasn't too developed if the alleged Rangers is based on Breath of the Wild.

40 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

Didn't that end up being RoL?

It could be. Whenever people use "SEGA" to refer to developers despite the fact that SEGA technically has never developed a Sonic game (and they do have teams in their name, so they're not just publishers), it becomes ambiguous what they mean.

[T-Min]

On the topic of losing faith in Sonic Team, whether I feel totally done with them over Forces or not kind of depends on my mood. I don't think Sonic Team is completely incapable of making a fun game; it's just about whether they have the right direction. I was most negative about Rangers when I read the teaser as meaning it would be another boost game. With the leaks, I wouldn't say that I'm cautiously optimistic, but more so cautiously curious. At this point, I have no expectations. I just really want to see more.

Regarding the cynicism issue from a page or two back, speaking from experience, I think it's easy to get defensive when you're on the optimistic team because you might perceive negativity as a threat to your own excitement, if not hostility towards your own perspective. That's kind of the catch-22 about participating in discussion, since you're open to being influenced by others' opinions. And I mean, the hostile cynics do exist, even if they're not all concentrated on a discussion board like this one. Hell, I've been that person before, accusing people of wearing "fanboy goggles" and such for being positive about the "wrong" things. I'm not proud of it.

I do think there is a bias in online discussion spaces that people on the positive side of a polarizing piece of media are uncritical or "blind" to the flaws, which can feel patronizing. Because of that, some people might get defensive as a knee-jerk reaction, and you could read someone's personal expression of disillusionment as ridiculing even if it's not meant that way. But of course, if you try to police negativity out of a discussion, intentionally or otherwise, being "blind" just becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy at best.

If it means anything, I generally enjoy seeing people get excited about something even if I'm not into it. The positive discussion people were having after the Rangers leak first surfaced was actually really refreshing. But there are a lot of good reasons to hold Sonic Team on thin ice right now, even if I'm cozying up to the idea of giving them another chance. So I won't begrudge anyone for that.

[SBR2]

1 hour ago, T-Min said:

 

I do think there is a bias in online discussion spaces that people on the positive side of a polarizing piece of media are uncritical or "blind" to the flaws, which can feel patronizing.

My favorite is being called a contraian for not hating the Deadly Six or thinking Lost World's story is actually pretty good or thinking Forces is at worst meh but not really deserving of its massive hatred. 

Oh, being asked "did you even play it" when talking about a game I have played is another super fun thing.

1 hour ago, T-Min said:

But of course, if you try to police negativity out of a discussion, intentionally or otherwise, being "blind" just becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy at best.

I will admit that I can become like that though. It's just I hate seeing people trash on this series endlessly.

It honestly feels like it doesn’t matter if the next game is mostly solid if it has even a few flaws it'll just be shit on relentlessly. Like nobody wants to even believe that maybe without having to build an engine that maybe just maybe development time was actually spent on making sure the game is good.

It just seems like people just want to be bitter and angry about Sonic all the time. You hardly ever see anybody talk about things they like it's always why this sucks or "did Sonic 2 actually suck too" or whatever. There's a reason we have a reputation for being completely unpleasible.

[Sonikko]

About the good faith Sonic Team built in the  early 2010s, I wanna add something to that.

People see the transition from Unleashed to Colours to Generations as extremely positive, which technically, it was I guess.

But let's not forget that SEGA released Sonic 4 EP1, Sonic 4 EP2, Sonic and the Black Knight, Sonic Chronicles, Sonic Free Riders in the same period, from 2008 to 2012.

Before you say "some of those weren't made by Sonic Team", technically Sonic Team had a hand in developing both Sonic 4 games, so I still hold them accountable for that, Free Riders and Black Knight were entirely on them too.

Even the late 2000s/early 2010s were still kind of a rollercoaster when it comes to quality.

It wasn't just Colours and Generations, it was all the other mediocre/bad games with poor quality control as well.

So yeah, to me Sonic never really "recovered" entirely from the early 2000s, it had a couple of decent games that proved there's potential in the formula, but that's kinda it.

Boom burnt me out big time because it was SEGA literally telling me I am not in their target audience anymore, and it stings.

Forces just kinda is the culmination of all that, the 4th game with the same template, kind of inexcusable for it to be what it ended up being.

And this whole 1 game every 5 years approach with no re-releases to fill the gaps, just isn't for me, because what happens if the one game they release during the current decade isn't for me, like their track record leans me to think?
I'll come back to Sonic when I'm 35? Pretty sure I will have moved on to other stuff by then.

[Sega DogTagz]

2 hours ago, Sonikko said:

But let's not forget that SEGA released Sonic 4 EP1, Sonic 4 EP2, Sonic and the Black Knight, Sonic Chronicles, Sonic Free Riders in the same period, from 2008 to 2012.

 

True, but to be fair we have to put that in proper context; spinoffs aren't even close to equal footing with main series entries in this kind of discussion. While the quality of games like Free Riders were bad, its not going to have the same effect on the series at large vs. the perceptions that can be gleamed from quality failures from within the main series itself. Its just not gonna carry the same weight.

All of the games you mentioned outside of Sonic 4 were spinoffs and even 4 was a DL only title that was significantly smaller in scope than the standard affair. Despite most being made by Sonic Team itself, none of them really can compete with the impact Colors, Unleashed and Gens had on the narrative.

At least on the Major Products, Sonic Team was getting their ducks in a row.

[NoKaine]

3 hours ago, Sonikko said:

But let's not forget that SEGA released Sonic 4 EP1, Sonic 4 EP2, Sonic and the Black Knight, Sonic Chronicles, Sonic Free Riders in the same period, from 2008 to 2012.

Before you say "some of those weren't made by Sonic Team", technically Sonic Team had a hand in developing both Sonic 4 games, so I still hold them accountable for that, Free Riders and Black Knight were entirely on them too.

Sonic 4 is fairly clearly and obviously DIMPS' problem, from level design to gameplay. No one would give Sonic Team / Iizuka credit for Mania, even though they technically had a hand in it.

Chronicles is a massive outlier as well. Free Riders was donkey shit, though, absolutely. Black Knight less so. 

But racing spin-offs (and I'm curious how you mention Chronicles but not Sonic & SEGA All-Stars Racing) and one-off RPGs aren't what people think about when they think Sonic.  They think about the platformers. And from 2008 to 2012, Sonic Team made a ultimately mediocre game with a really strong core, and then proceeded to genuinely focus and improve on that core for two games in a row to fan acclaim. 

And since Generations, there has been only two games from them period, both mediocre, but very different, over the course of 4 years. 

3 hours ago, Sonikko said:

People see the transition from Unleashed to Colours to Generations as extremely positive, which technically, it was I guess.

By all accounts, including fans and non-fans, it was. It is. It's super revisionist to claim it isn't, but then also blame Colors for Forces. You don't see them following up on '06, so why would they follow up on Colors or even make a remaster of it (something SEGA never does for Sonic) if people thought it was Bad, Actually? 

3 hours ago, Sonikko said:

And this whole 1 game every 5 years approach with no re-releases to fill the gaps, just isn't for me

Their old strategy is exactly why you would get games like Secret Rings and Black Knight, though. Taking the time develop a game and one game is intrinsically better for the series (even if it doesn't seem like it yet). If this was back in the late 2000s, Sonic Team would be making Rangers AND Mania 2 AND at least two other spin-off and they would all suffer.

And personally, I've gotten over "having faith" in Sonic Team. "Sonic Team" is demonstrably not even a real thing, considering that no game has had a consistent team. I have absolutely no insight into the behind-the-scenes. The gap between Lost World and Forces seemed promising, but apparently they only made Forces in a year? Which, honestly though, is better than them actually taking four years for Forces and it coming out like it did.

So it's like, whatever. Maybe they'll get it together, or not. Just have to wait.

Edited June 5, 2021 by NoKaine

[Sonikko]

I guess by "Sonic Team" I address the directors rather than the actual staff working on the game, which seems to cycle with every entry, so the blame is not on them.

And also Sonic Unleashed's director, Toshiyuki Nagahara, was also the director for both Sonic 4 episodes, in addition to being lead designer for Sonic 4 ep2, so yeah, I do hold ST accountable for Sonic 4.

I also wasn't talking about the general public, as much as I was referring to Sonic fans who went through the last decade, I don't think anyone but us even knew nor cared for Sonic Free Riders or Chronicles back then, and now.

When I say I don't have faith in Sonic Team, I'm not saying I don't have faith in their level designers, artists or what have you, I'm saying I don't have faith in their directors, who have been pretty consistent since 2010, so I think that's a fair assertion to make.

[CertifiedNobody]

So the reddit leaks are definitely bullshit, right?

[NoKaine]

13 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

When I say I don't have faith in Sonic Team, I'm not saying I don't have faith in their level designers, artists or what have you, I'm saying I don't have faith in their directors, who have been pretty consistent since 2010, so I think that's a fair assertion to make.

The director for Generations (Hiroshi Miyamoto) was not the same director as the one who did Lost World and Forces (Morio Kishimoto), which can be clearly felt through the games themselves.

All that means is that different directors make different games and that can't even be used to measure quality. And since the new teaser didn't have anything like "from the team that made x and y", we wouldn't even know if the directors have changed again.

This is what I mean. "Sonic Team" is nebulous. The only consistency is that they make main series Sonic games. Rangers could have an entirely different "Sonic Team", and so may the game after that. So I don't put faith into abstract concepts like that. We will not know what is going on until the game can be played on our consoles / PCs.

[Sonikko]

9 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

The director for Generations (Hiroshi Miyamoto) was not the same director as the one who did Lost World and Forces (Morio Kishimoto), which can be clearly felt through the games themselves.

All that means is that different directors make different games and that can't even be used to measure quality. And since the new teaser didn't have anything like "from the team that made x and y", we wouldn't even know if the directors have changed again.

This is what I mean. "Sonic Team" is nebulous. The only consistency is that they make main series Sonic games. Rangers could have an entirely different "Sonic Team", and so may the game after that. So I don't put faith into abstract concepts like that. We will not know what is going on until the game can be played on our consoles / PCs.

I know that, Kishimoto has directed most of the mainline Sonic games since 2008, the only exceptions being Unleashed and Generations, which is why I keep saying that I don't have faith in Sonic Team, as he represents Sonic Team to me as of now, given he's the one who's consistently leading projects.

We don't know Rangers' director, I wasn't even thinking about Rangers when I wrote that post honestly, I'm actually curious about the game and I want to see them pull it off, will hold my judgement until we see some footage for obvious reasons hahah.

 

EDIT: Also I don't agree with having to play a game to form an idea about it, if that were the case, they wouldn't bother showing off gameplay in the first place.

[D.K.]

kishimoto is the video game equivalent of someone that did one really funny joke in highschool and has spent the next 10 years of his life riding that high ever since

[Enesephus]

21 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

And also Sonic Unleashed's director, Toshiyuki Nagahara, was also the director for both Sonic 4 episodes, in addition to being lead designer for Sonic 4 ep2, so yeah, I do hold ST accountable for Sonic 4.

Toshiyuki Nagahara directed the Wii version of Unleashed, though, and as far as I can tell, nothing else at SEGA besides Sonic 4. Yoshihisa Hashimoto directed the PS/360 version most people seem to favor and that most people are referring to when they refer to Unleashed. He also had more of a history with Sonic Team according to this page. Unfortunately, he left after Unleashed to go work with Square Enix, so your overall point still stands, but I'd still say Dimps is more directly responsible for Sonic 4.

[Sonikko]

17 minutes ago, Enesephus said:

Toshiyuki Nagahara directed the Wii version of Unleashed, though, and as far as I can tell, nothing else at SEGA besides Sonic 4. Yoshihisa Hashimoto directed the PS/360 version most people seem to favor and that most people are referring to when they refer to Unleashed. He also had more of a history with Sonic Team according to this page. Unfortunately, he left after Unleashed to go work with Square Enix, so your overall point still stands, but I'd still say Dimps is more directly responsible for Sonic 4.

Fair point, my bad, Nagahara was credited as Sonic Team staff so I didn't bother checking which version. I dun goofed lol.

The HD Unleashed director is fairly talented and got screwed up at SQuenix as well, now he works in software programming if I'm not mistaken. The Luminous Engine was really something when it was first developed.

[SonicXTails]

13 hours ago, SBR2 said:

My favorite is being called a contraian for not hating the Deadly Six or thinking Lost World's story is actually pretty good or thinking Forces is at worst meh but not really deserving of its massive hatred. 

Oh, being asked "did you even play it" when talking about a game I have played is another super fun thing.

I will admit that I can become like that though. It's just I hate seeing people trash on this series endlessly.

It honestly feels like it doesn’t matter if the next game is mostly solid if it has even a few flaws it'll just be shit on relentlessly. Like nobody wants to even believe that maybe without having to build an engine that maybe just maybe development time was actually spent on making sure the game is good.

It just seems like people just want to be bitter and angry about Sonic all the time. You hardly ever see anybody talk about things they like it's always why this sucks or "did Sonic 2 actually suck too" or whatever. There's a reason we have a reputation for being completely unpleasible.

That's pretty much exactly what I see also unfortunately. Sonic as been all over the place and I personally love it. Mania was great, but if they did only Sonic games like it, would I still like it? 

What I always liked about Sega is that they take risk and try different things, even with their best selling franchise. If Sonic was always the same from game to game, I would probably be sick of it. 

Now I know people love more of the same and it's fine I guess, but it's just not for me. Assassin's Creed got stale after the third one. More of the same is not a good thing in my opinion.

Now, contrast this with Sonic that goes all over the place. I'm old enough to have played all Sonic games when they had just come out. And you know what's funny? A lot of the game that people shit on for years after release ends up being fan favorites years down the line. 

Now what does that mean? It means that a lot of people do like most Sonic games. But they are so different from game to game that they do not necessarily appeal to the same exact persons.

Yes most Sonic games are flawed, but that is kind of their beauty. I keep on coming to Sonic games, much more so then say, Mario games which are much more perfect.

Their is a kind of beauty in flawed design that tries to be bold and I personally love it.

[CertifiedNobody]

On 6/4/2021 at 11:24 PM, SBR2 said:

My favorite is being called a contraian for not hating the Deadly Six or thinking Lost World's story is actually pretty good or thinking Forces is at worst meh but not really deserving of its massive hatred. 

Oh, being asked "did you even play it" when talking about a game I have played is another super fun thing.

I will admit that I can become like that though. It's just I hate seeing people trash on this series endlessly.

It honestly feels like it doesn’t matter if the next game is mostly solid if it has even a few flaws it'll just be shit on relentlessly. Like nobody wants to even believe that maybe without having to build an engine that maybe just maybe development time was actually spent on making sure the game is good.

It just seems like people just want to be bitter and angry about Sonic all the time. You hardly ever see anybody talk about things they like it's always why this sucks or "did Sonic 2 actually suck too" or whatever. There's a reason we have a reputation for being completely unpleasible.

I've felt this way for a while, especially when it comes to youtubers like Premydaremy (His newer videos have a lot of him whining about "the meta era never ending" because Roger is still voicing Sonic and Colors no longer being Wii-exclusive). A lot of people are just bitter and seem to focus on the most negative parts of the series even when things are generally pretty good. People will always look for something to complain about even if they got exactly what they wanted. Remember fans complaining about Amy not being playable in Sonic Mania Plus right after Mighty and Ray finally returned?

There's so much I love about the series, from the lore to the gameplay, and often it seems the only way to avoid always being disappointed with the series is to be at least somewhat contrarian.

[herbhen]

Me personally I'm very hopeful for Sonic Rangers. The leaks should only be taken with a pinch of salt all be it I know a lot of them actually hold a lot of potential truth with when they actually leaked and how those leaks align with the trailers release. But the hype shouldn't be squashed with the controversal elements that the Leaks raise, its fun to speculate and fun to analyse, I don't think we should shoot down the games potential just because of past games. For one I never understand this Meta-era complaining, or why its even called the Meta-era. I think since Colours and Rogers introduction, Sonic and the cast of other characters have been the most consistant they've ever really been, they all have clear identitys, even the different iterations over the last decade i.e Sonic Boom and Movie Sonic, I think have been consistant. People complain about Forces and I really understand the problems with it (I too have issues myself) But unlike other games in the series its at least polished and a high quality product, irrespective of what peoples opinions on the games contents are. Thats really what I'm thankful for over the last 10 years and why personally I think the last decade has been a lot better in terms of polish and variety, Sure Sonic Boom on Wii U was a glitchy mess but take that out of the equation and I personally can't think of any other Sonic software since colours that was bad by quality. Sonic Lost world for example, I never quite got to grips with the new moveset but it was a polished game of high quality. The likes of kids playing forces, lost world etc are the kids that will potentially be on this forum in a few years time singing these games praises as the games that got them in to the series. I remember when unleashed first came out and it was heavily controversial, now people and fans who grew up with it praise it as one of the best in the series (I grew up with the classics but love unleashed myself). I'm happy for the series to go to new places and try new things, simply cause I know even If I don't appreciate it, there will be a fan or a new fan somewhere who will!

[Graystripe2000]

Overview of the Sonic Rangers leaks. 

https://aawesomepenguin.tumblr.com/post/652491620625907712/sonic-rangers-everything-we-know-about-it-link

[StellarBlur]

It's kind of annoying that none of the leaks addressed Sonic's general gameplay style itself. Are we back with boost ? Maybe the fact that they mentioned boost levels specifically for the cyberspace stages implies the open world has another gameplay style. I just hope traversal is fun and rewarding. It's the most important aspect.

[Betz]

Gotta love these guys. Place your mes on what they'll leak next.

[CertifiedNobody]

23 hours ago, StellarBlur said:

It's kind of annoying that none of the leaks addressed Sonic's general gameplay style itself. Are we back with boost ? Maybe the fact that they mentioned boost levels specifically for the cyberspace stages implies the open world has another gameplay style. I just hope traversal is fun and rewarding. It's the most important aspect.

And then you have the reddit leaks which all say something different (Boost, no boost, infinite boost, momentum + spindash, etc)

19 minutes ago, Betz said:

Gotta love these guys. Place your mes on what they'll leak next.

I'm starting wonder if this is just some sort of publicity stunt.

[VO.SUPER]

7 minutes ago, CertifiedNobody said:

And then you have the reddit leaks which all say something different (Boost, no boost, infinite boost, momentum + spindash, etc)

I'm starting wonder if this is just some sort of publicity stunt.

This one probably is this time. The Colours and Origins leaks probably brought them a lot of traffic, because I doubt any retailer would get this ballsy again and again without wanting something from it.

[Jango]

54 minutes ago, Betz said:

Gotta love these guys. Place your mes on what they'll leak next.

Already? This has to be a mistake, unless the game comes reaaaaally early 2022...

[phobs]

1 hour ago, Betz said:

Gotta love these guys. Place your mes on what they'll leak next.

Wow! Can you share the link to the listing?