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Sonic Rangers Predictions...

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12 hours ago, Enderwoman said:

t is absolutely in Sonic's character to help out distraught humanoid girls. Tikal are little more than obstacles he will dismissively help on his journey to his true goal; of getting some human woman. Elise, Shara, Merlina, even in Sonic's conceptual stages, Madonna. Sonic is in to humans. Sonic Team would be absolutely correct and in fact embracing the series history and character to have another human. The cowardice of Lost World, Generations, Forces Colors and even Unleashed! It is your chance to correct it course now Sonic Team

Meh, I dunno. I want the humans back, but the idea of Sonic having the hots for some broad he's just met never really appealed to me.

Also... does this mean Ghost Girl is constantly getting kidnapped? If so, then I can't possibly see that going over well... especially if they keep giving more active females like Amy, Rouge, Cream and Blaze the shaft in order to make room for the new chick.

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5 minutes ago, KingMario05 said:

Meh, I dunno. I want the humans back, but the idea of Sonic having the hots for some broad he's just met never really appealed to me.

Also... does this mean Ghost Girl is constantly getting kidnapped? If so, then I can't possibly see that going over well... especially if they keep giving more active females like Amy, Rouge, Cream and Blaze the shaft in order to make room for the new chick.

Has Sonic ever had the hots for any of the female characters he's met? Because I don't remember anything like that in any of the games, not even Sonic 2006 despite people complaining about the romance aspect of that game, and I don't imagine Sonic Team would make that a thing now.

Whatever role Ghost Girl plays, it doesn't seem like she'll be getting kidnapped, either, based on the leak. At least, I hope not.

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10 minutes ago, KingMario05 said:

Also... does this mean Ghost Girl is constantly getting kidnapped? If so, then I can't possibly see that going over well... especially if they keep giving more active females like Amy, Rouge, Cream and Blaze the shaft in order to make room for the new chick.

I don't think we'll have to worry about a ghost getting kidnapped.

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On 5/31/2021 at 7:37 PM, Enesephus said:

. Personally, I'd prefer them to go for more of an anime style like in Sonic X. Realistic enough in design to take more seriously, but not trying to look too much like real people like Elise. I just think they'd look better for the kind of tone I want for these games, especially if any of them are going to be important. 

I'd be down for that. I'm surprised they never really did that considering how popular that show was.

On 5/31/2021 at 7:40 PM, VisionaryofSUPER said:

I wouldn't mind the Naoto Oshima styled humans from Balan Wonderworld. While I prefer Unleashed humans, I think Oshima's brand of human is just as fitting to Sonic.

Idk man, I haven't crossed paths with the game for very long, but some of the NPCs I skimmed ....

On 5/31/2021 at 8:31 PM, Snowragnarok said:

One of the big complaints about those characters is that they’re too recurring compared to others, even when the Wisps had a return explanation in side media. The Deadly Six... well, they vanished like Mario bosses, so it was very unclear about their fates until later. The HBH reformed, and Infinite... his fate is up in the air right now, but he’s most likely dead if IDW still can’t use him. The thing is, the Six and Wisps were never compelling enough to be recurring, and the plots made them seem like one-offs. The Wisps probably returned due to a popularity they quickly lost from their re-use, however...

The Wisps absolutely were.

That said, I'm semisure they're recurring because they're simple or vice versa

On 5/31/2021 at 7:44 PM, shdowhunt60 said:

 

But I guess that's just the really pessimistic way of looking at it. There's a different route of thought I'm actually currently following though that maybe this is Iizuka taking the chance to finally make the Sonic Adventure he originally wanted to make. I'll be sure to share it when I get my thoughts together.

Ooh, do tell

22 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Merlina was an awesome stab in the back, because you trusted her face due to her being a dead ringer for Shahra, but its easy to forget that Shahra stabbed you in the back in her game too. So its a fool me once, fool we twice gag. Perfect rug pull.

 

But yeah, we don't know nearly enough about this potential character to hazard any kind of realistic guess about what they would be about. From the information gleamed from the leaks, it would make sense that a "ghost" could be misinterpreted as either an AI or a Hologram - which both would be thematically fitting with cyberspace. Furthermore, we saw mention of some of the enemies in the overworld being "robots" and "aliens" so who knows whats going on with that and how it would tie in with the girl.

Recent companion characters in Sonic History run the gambit between Yacker to Chip, so how prevalent this ghost will be to the story is too early to tell. Lets wait and see what she's about before we start getting scared of them ripping story beats out of BoTW.

What kinda aliens we talking here?

20 hours ago, Snowragnarok said:

. They’ve also become less threatening in their later appearances like TSR. Given Sonic Team apparently doesn’t care to make nuanced villains anymore, I could see them doing that. 

I'll say.

15 hours ago, Jack-al said:

If we want to list them all, it's gonna be a long one.

SA1 - Tikal/red orb

SA2 - Maria in flashbacks, with Omochao (tutorials)

Sonic X - Chris

Shadow - Doom's eye

Sonic '06 - Elise

Unleashed - Chip

Night of the Werehog - Ghost girl

Secret Rings - Shahra

Black Knight - Caliburn and Merlina (with twist)

Colors - Tails and Yacker

Generations - 2 Tails (basically), Omochao for tutorials

Sonic Movie - Tom and Maddie

 

 

I keep forgetting Sonic X Leapster was a thing.

3 hours ago, Snowragnarok said:

06 also had the Duke. Perci and QNC would maybe count for RoL, but they were downplayed. 

Oh yeah, I suppose that was effectively the Duke.

Perci did jackshit though.

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10 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

What kinda aliens we talking here?

Nobody knows. Thats just the terms the original leaker used to describe some of the things you have to fight in the overworld. Robots and Aliens.

Taken with the usual dose of "take-this-at-face-value" they may not even be aliens. Just something with a different aesthetic feel than the current environment. Much like how we are speculating the Ghost Girl could be an AI or Hologram, you could also conjure up a similar theory about these alien enemies. We just don't know.

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There's so little to go on right now. Ten years ago I'd have been totally wrapped up in speculation about what this or that could be, making all manner of predictions about who this "ghost girl" is and what the "zap" logo actually means. 

I'm long since past that now though. This thread is just straw-grasping. I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade; speculation is fun if you're into it. But just keep your expectations in check. All we have right now is the most non-descript of teaser trailers, and leaks with fairly non-descript details from focus tests that could easily be outdated or unrepresentative of the final game. Getting hung up about the identity and role of the ghost girl or anything else right now isn't going to be very productive. As Diogenes said, we barely even know that she exists at this point. Try not to read too deeply into things and come to conclusive opinions just yet. Both writing off the game or getting too hyped about it right now is a bit rich. 

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On 5/29/2021 at 2:57 PM, KingMario05 said:

I'll bet you anything we're getting multiple player characters. Note how the word "Rangers" is plural, not singular. Ergo, it won't be just Sonic... this is the one where the floodgates finally open. Especially if the Ubisoft (bleh!) comparisons are anything to go by.

Now, what are Ubisoft games known for? Towers, of course! Things you climb, secure, then race back down to keep on exploring. When you're playing a ground character like Sonic or Shadow, this gets tedious quick

But here's the thing... we have a character that doesn't need to stay on the ground in order to move.

One who's supposedly always by his hero's side... and yet, we haven't seen him on the frontlines in ages.

With Rangers... that's gonna change.

Step aside and get hyped, boys. The motherfuckin' Best Boi is finally coming back.

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Hell yeah!!

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I believe Sonic Rangers (or whatever it's called) will be open world in some way. It could actually be pretty cool! :)really liked the hub from Sonic Adventure and Sonic 2006. It could be something like that but bigger and with more gameplay elements scattered throughout. And then you enter the levels and it's a bit more linear. Really interesting and I can't wait to learn more about it! That leak really make sens. But if it end up being something totally different, I'm cool with that too! :)

 

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3 hours ago, SonicXTails said:

But if it end up being something totally different, I'm cool with that too! :)

 

Agreed. I enjoy seeing them try new things with Sonic. They've been doing it for most of the franchise's span, so the potential for novelty is pretty welcome when it comes along. I hope they execute well on whatever they're pursuing with this entry and that it's an interesting direction.

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i wish Sonic Rangers or Sonic 2022 could be mde using Hedgehog Engine 2, and It might include the Boost. It might really have music by Sega's Sound Team/Wave Master and also Sonic Rangers still has the Homing Attack, as far as notes go, I think Classic Sonic and Movie Sonic should be Skins for Modern Sonic in the Game, and it might release June 2022. I might want a new Chao Garden in Sonic Rangers.

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I mean, I think it using the Hedgehog Engine 2 is a guarantee, regardless of how the game plays. They wouldn't make a new version of their engine only to use it for Forces... besides, they've already used it for Sakura Wars 2019, Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games Tokyo 2020, and Puyo Puyo Tetris 2. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if PSO2 NGS uses it, though I kind of doubt that.

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4 hours ago, Shade Vortex said:

I mean, I think it using the Hedgehog Engine 2 is a guarantee, regardless of how the game plays. They wouldn't make a new version of their engine only to use it for Forces... besides, they've already used it for Sakura Wars 2019, Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games Tokyo 2020, and Puyo Puyo Tetris 2. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if PSO2 NGS uses it, though I kind of doubt that.

My understanding is that it's a graphics engine. No? So it really has no bearing on how a game actually plays. 

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1 hour ago, Zoomzeta said:

My understanding is that it's a graphics engine. No? So it really has no bearing on how a game actually plays. 

I've seen this repeated since it was mentioned by an artist on twitter and I think a youtuber, but I've never personally seen evidence of that being the extent of the engine's functionality. The claim was added to the Sonic Wiki by an anonymous IP user on the 29th of January 2011 with the explicit statement of the toolset not having any bearing on gameplay style. This is in spite of the official press-release revealing both Unleashed and the first iteration of the engine directly indicating the very opposite:

Quote

Along with seamless 3D to classic 2D camera transitions, the game is built on a powerful, new proprietary "Hedgehog Engine," which introduces impressive lighting abilities and new technology tailor made for Sonic's new speed capabilities. Under development for approximately three years, the Hedgehog Engine will help to produce a visually rich next generation look and feel with elements of classic Sonic gameplay components. The Hedgehog engine will help re-define the gameplay experience for Sonic fans and newcomers to the franchise alike.

Then there's the matter of Puyo Puyo Tetris 2 being made in the Engine. If the Hedgehog Engine were explicitly a graphics/rendering solution, why would a game that consists almost wholly of flat image assets need to leverage that tool set? We also don't typically see the mention of any other engines outside of middleware -like Havoc- in conjunction with the Hedgehog Engine when looking at the details of relevant projects.

Together, these things raise questions about the actual extent of what the engine does and what evidence, if any, explicitly established the popularly held claim that's been made and left seemingly unquestioned in broader discussion for the past decade or so.

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6 hours ago, Stranger said:

Together, these things raise questions about the actual extent of what the engine does and what evidence, if any, explicitly established the popularly held claim that's been made and left seemingly unquestioned in broader discussion for the past decade or so.

There is no question to raise over what either of the Hedgehog engines are or do. They are explicitly graphics based.

When the first one was originally announced Sega detailed all the benefits of the engine in a press release as well as provided several demo videos showing off its different features. Not once did anything stray away from graphics and lighting. Hedgehog engine 2 was explicitly made to improve those features and mitigate problems with the first engine. Again, in a press release describing what the new engine could do, Sonic Team laid bare every feature and they were again all graphics and lighting.

Yoshihisa Hashimoto, the director of the engine's creation offered a Keynote speech specifically on the HE at GDC. He talked for more than an hour about why the engine was created, what he hoped to accomplish with it and what it could do now and in the future.

This was Slide 1 in that presentation.

388724261_Slide1.thumb.jpg.126e101a05a379ae208b08ff7dcedfc8.jpg

 

Over the entire hour+ of that speech, the only thing that wasn't specifically graphics related that was addressed was how they had to optimize loading streams because data couldn't be feed in fast enough from the disc. he showed their work around from that. Everything else was Global Illumination this and Pre-Baked CGI that. He even layed out his plans for the future, with several of the bullet points being the very same things that the HE2 would go on to fix.

 

6 hours ago, Stranger said:

Along with seamless 3D to classic 2D camera transitions, the game is built on a powerful, new proprietary "Hedgehog Engine," which introduces impressive lighting abilities and new technology tailor made for Sonic's new speed capabilities. Under development for approximately three years, the Hedgehog Engine will help to produce a visually rich next generation look and feel with elements of classic Sonic gameplay components. The Hedgehog engine will help re-define the gameplay experience for Sonic fans and newcomers to the franchise alike.

Of course graphics will re-define the "gameplay experience" but there is nothing in this blurb to suggest the engine does anything to affect how the game moves or balances. In fact, if you look, what it does tell you is the same thing every other press release and demo outlines very clearly. "impressive lighting" "next-gen look and feel" all buzz words for pretty graphics.

Show me something about physics or collision detection and then you might be on to something. Otherwise, this argument has no leg to stand on. Furthermore, if you look at the next paragraph from the press release your original qoute block comes from, it again doubles down on what the Hedgehog Engine is supposed to do.

Quote

“By combining rich and vibrant scenery with dynamic viewpoints Sonic Unleashed will provide an immersive 3D experience”

Graphics.

 

There isn't some hivemind conspiracy theory running here. Its just a graphics engine. Hashimoto is on record multiple times in multiple conferences stating that the HE was designed to fill a shortfall in dynamic lighting.

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The presentation was about Global Illumination in Sonic Unleashed and was not a comprehensive run through the entirety of the Hedgehog Engine's feature set. It's evident that a core intent of the hedgehog Engine was improving the graphics quality and an inherent aspect of functional execution would be dealing with the streaming of a large amount of data due to the speed of traversal across the environment. Despite this, there's a clear difference between the visuals being a primary focus of building the engine and the engine being exclusively and explicitly a graphics/rendering tool: acknowledging the clear focus on lighting/rendering is one thing, but stating that the engine has no functionality outside of that is a step beyond and has no hard basis.

The only press-release I've found on the matter is the one I've quoted from and hand waving away the fact that it explicitly regards the engine having relevance to gameplay twice doesn't change the reality that it's not only a direct statement from a party of authority -especially relative to random people in the fandom- but is also amongst the only explicit statements available that go one way or the other. This also doesn't answer the additional matter of its usage in Puyo Puyo Tetris 2, which has no need or apparent use of Global Illumination, Dynamic Shadows, HDR, or other features for which the engine is known.

It's extremely unusual to see such a confident conclusion so firmly seated in the community despite these things and our limited knowledge besides.

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8 minutes ago, Stranger said:

The presentation was about Global Illumination in Sonic Unleashed and was not a comprehensive run through the entirety of the Hedgehog Engine's feature set. It's evident that a core intent of the hedgehog Engine was improving the graphics quality and an inherent aspect of functional execution would be dealing with the streaming of a large amount of data due to the speed of traversal across the environment. Despite this, there's a clear difference between the visuals being a primary focus of building the engine and the engine being exclusively and explicitly a graphics/rendering tool: acknowledging the clear focus on lighting/rendering is one thing, but stating that the engine has no functionality outside of that is a step beyond and has no hard basis.

No hard basis? You have the burden of proof backwards here. The documented and proven capabilities of the HE define it as purely graphics based creation. Anything beyond that is what enters the realm of speculation. I don't need to provide hard basis that is doesn't have any additional functionality and I am not selling it short by labeling it via what has been presented. You are projecting additional functions with insufficient proof.

Until someone pops up with some hard schematics that show the engine handles physics or the like, I can lean back on the many, many, MANY examples of graphic tricks and mock-ups and call a fish a fish.

 

8 minutes ago, Stranger said:


Hand waving away the fact that the press release explicitly regards the engine having relevance to gameplay twice doesn't change the reality that it's not only a direct statement from a party of authority -especially relative to random people in the fandom- but is also amongst the only explicit statements available that go one way or the other.

A restaurant will tell you that their scenic views will enhance the experience of its food, but that doesn't mean one has anything to do with the creation/quality/execution of the other.

I could take that original PR blub, replace Hedgehog Engine with Dolby Digital and nothing about it would be any factually different. The Sound engine no doubt has an impact on the gameplay experience - no one would argue that - but you don't see anyone running around shouting Dolby has something to do with Gameplay itself. Its jargon. It makes as much sense to connect Dolby to gameplay as it does the HE. None.

Those press releases provide no evidence that the engine directly impacts gameplay itself and doubles down on graphics. Thats not a hand-wave.

 

and its hardly the "only explicit statement" that is available, because there is a tidal wave of speeches, videos and conferences that specifically label it a graphics engine. That is was conceived as a graphics engine. That is was researched and developed as a graphics engine, and make no mention of it being anything more than that.

 

8 minutes ago, Stranger said:

This also doesn't answer the additional matter of its usage in Puyo Puyo Tetris 2, which has no need or apparent use of Global Illumination, Dynamic Shadows, HDR, or other features for which the engine is known.

So your argument is that we should somehow find fault in the idea that Sonic Team used a graphics engine that they themselves made, in a different game?

Oooookay.

Its still a graphics engine dude. Even if it doesn't need to push the boundaries and use all the fancy graphic tricks, it can still render and produce visuals for anything you need to put into it. And using your own stock beats paying to use someone else's engine.

Thats not evidence that the Engine was meant for something else. That's just a company using its own tech. Standard Operating Procedure.

 

8 minutes ago, Stranger said:

It's extremely unusual to see such a confident conclusion so firmly seated in the community despite these things and our limited knowledge besides.

 

We have hours of Devs pouring over its specs. We have tons of slides showing us what it can and cant do. Our Knowledge of it is hardly limited.

Its firmly seated because there is data and intel to back it up.

 

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You're side stepping the reality of it being the fanbase that's drawn a conclusion on what the constraints of the Engine are and actively dismissing what's been said by Sega themselves: the only valid authority on the matter. It IS a handwave. You've mentioned a press release detailing all the features of the Engine, and I can't find it no matter where I search. You've also mentioned that there's "a tidal wave of speeches, videos and conferences that specifically label it a graphics engine", but I've yet to find even one, let alone multiple. Documented and proven capabilities of the Hedgehog Engine illustrate a focus on graphical advancements as the principle function of the toolset, they do not define it as a purely graphics based creation. The burden of proof is on the ones making the hard conclusion instead of stopping at what's apparent.

Regarding Puyo Puyo Tetris 2: So far as we know, the first entry did not use the Hedgehog Engine. The second game is extremely similar in function, style, modes, etc. It would have been far easier to simply work over that game's established framework than to move to another solution, especially considering that game is already built in such a way that it runs on the lowest common denominator without performance issues or visual hiccups.

Additional evidence that makes the conclusions being made worth doubting does exist.

Let's start with the credits from Sonic Uneashed pertaining to the engine. From here, we can see that there's a bit more that extends beyond the Graphics Engine aspect.

Quote

Hedgehog Engine Development Team

  • Technical Director 

Yoshihisa Hashimoto

  • Graphic Engine Programmers 

Takaaki Saito
Koji Ogino
Takuma Komatsu
Masayoshi Kamai
Takashi Sekine

  • Game Framework Programmer

Hiroshi Iwasaki

  • Tool Programmers

Nobuo Nakagawa
Kentarou Tomii
Yusuke Ichiyama
Yoshitaka Kitagawa

  • AI System Programmer

Takateru Ohyama

  • System Programmers

Naoto Ogawa
Takahiro Nagata
Daigo Matsuura

 

 

Now let's look at some of those interviews you mentioned and see if they don't ever go beyond the implication of the engine being a graphics specific tool.

The following is from a Sonic Channel Creators Interview:

Quote

From the name, there are times when we are asked, “Is it a development environment for Sonic?”, but I think it could make games of wide range of action game, RPG, sports, racing, FPS, puzzle, and so forth for the target of production. I think that an action game, especially the game known as Sonic who runs extremely fast, demands strict requirements in the development environment, so naturally, other works could have a production method that had time to spare.

Isn't it strange that this hypothetical is answered in terms of genres or the constraints of Sonic games? Wouldn't it make more sense for him to have said that the Hedgehog Engine is a graphic's engine that can work for any production within constraints of the hardware? This is something less firm and more particular to matters that aren't constrained by visuals. It's also worth noting that he refers to it in the interview as an 'integrated environment for making games' and an IDE.

This breadth is further implied in a Destructoid interview in the following potion of a response:

Quote

If Sonic Unleashed is the answer to “What should Sonic be?”, the answer for “What game movies should be?” will be the Hedgehog Engine. The Hedgehog Engine has all the necessary libraries and tools and the lighting calculating systems as well as systems that can stream various data. The Hedgehog Engine is a comprehensive development environment.

It's also worth noting that what became the Hedgehog Engine was considered a broad necessity to make a game at all. This is seen in the aforementioned Sonic Channel interview.

Quote

First, at the point in time of 2005, the mission from Producer Nishiyama “Let’s make a Sonic game,” was handed down. But before that, if we did not systematically prepare a development environment for the high-end consoles (PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360), we could not make games, so before we started creating the main part of the game, we began to make the game integrated development environment called Hedgehog Engine with several people.

 

In an interview with Gamespot, Hashimoto says the following:

Quote

The Hedgehog Engine we developed has excellent ability in expressing detailed light and shadow and data streaming, in addition to all the other features that usual game engines have. To accommodate Sonic’s super high speed, longer levels have more than 15km of distance, making it impossible to mount everything on memory. So in order not to go under Sonic’s speed, we are streaming terrain (geography) data in high speed. Also, a lot of effort has been put into developing shader and blur processes to give a sense of speed. Also, sound effects and other things are employed to emphasize the speed.

This is a far more on the nose statement, isn't it? It implies that, while the focus has been on reaching a goal of visual fidelity, that the actual engine isn't evidently just a graphics toolset.

Again, what is known can very well be presented to say that the primary purpose or value of the engine is visual. That is what's apparent. It's another thing entirely to say that the engine is just a graphics engine outright, which can't be presented as fact unless it's directly established through either access to the toolset or an explicit statement from the source/authority.

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10 hours ago, Zoomzeta said:

My understanding is that it's a graphics engine. No? So it really has no bearing on how a game actually plays. 

That was my whole point? I literally said, word for word: "I mean, I think it using the Hedgehog Engine 2 is a guarantee, regardless of how the game plays." Turns out that means exactly what it sounds like I said: regardless of the gameplay style of Rangers, they're likely to use HE2 for the reasons I stated (it seems far less specialized in its use considering they've used it with basically every game they've put out since Forces, it's also obviously far better optimized considering it can run on the Wii U and Switch).
Hell, I actually recently learned that the original HE was used for PSO2. So now I'm more confident that the graphically more impressive PSO2 NGS most likely uses the HE2.

Also, it's a bit more complicated than "just being a graphics engine". It was specifically made to be able to load/render assets in chunks fast enough to be able to keep up with the Boost gameplay.

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27 minutes ago, Stranger said:

You're side stepping the reality of it being the fanbase that's drawn a conclusion on what the constraints of what the Engine are and actively ignoring what's been said by Sega themselves: the only valid authority on the matter. 

Yoshihisa Hashimoto is SEGA in this case. He is the single, most qualified person to discuss the matter at any level of the company.

https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1428/Global-Illumination-in-

He clearly defines that creation of the engine was in response to feeling something was missing with 3D graphics circa 2005. He clearly defines that the research and development of the engine deep dived into recreating CGI graphics. He clearly lists the success and failures of his new creation purely by its ability to render and distribute graphics. He clearly lists future goals as being able to better perform the above functions.

The fact that the Hedgehog Engine has been applied from Sonic, to Tetris to Sakura Wars and everything in-between should be further proof that the engine is not proving a gameplay function.

Sega themselves have gone through great lengths to document what the HE can do from a graphics standpoint, but we haven't been given a shred of data or examples of it doing literally anything else.

The conclusion being drawn here is fair and appropriate. It would not make any sense to assume otherwise. Describing a product by the terms that were presented to us and what it is intended to do is the normal, acceptable approach for conversation both legal and casual. We don't assume what is not there. Thats insanity.

 

27 minutes ago, Stranger said:

 the Hedgehog Engine illustrate a focus on graphical advancements as the principle function of the toolset, they do  not define it as a purely graphics based creation. The burden of proof is on the ones making the hard conclusion instead of stopping at what's apparent.

All the data, spreadsheets and examples we have of the engine in action are purely from graphical capabilities. It is clearly the bigger assumption that it is more than that - considering the evidence. Therefore burden of proof falls on proving it does more.

 

proof that doesn't exist.

27 minutes ago, Stranger said:

Regarding Puyo Puyo Tetris 2: So far as we know, the first entry did not use the Hedgehog Engine. The second game is extremely similar in function, style, modes, etc. It would have been far easier to simply work over that game's established framework than to move to another solution, especially considering that game is already built in such a way that it runs on the lowest common denominator without performance issues or visual hiccups.

Additional evidence that makes the conclusions being made worth doubting does exist.

Newer engines provide better quality of life improvements. Simple as that. It became easier and more cost effective to utilize HE for the sequel so they did.

using the newest technology in your latest product is not some note worthy development. 

 

27 minutes ago, Stranger said:

Isn't it strange that this hypothetical is answered in terms of genres or the constraints of Sonic games? Wouldn't it make more sense for him to have said that the Hedgehog Engine is a graphic's engine that can work for any production within constraints of the hardware? This is something less firm and more particular to matters that aren't constrained by visuals. It's also worth noting that he refers to it in the interview as an 'integrated environment for making games' and an IDE.

None of what he said would fail to apply to a purely graphical engine.

 

27 minutes ago, Stranger said:

In an interview with Gamespot, Hashimoto says the following:

This is a far more on the nose statement, isn't it? It implies that, while the focus has been on reaching a goal of visual fidelity, that the actual engine isn't evidently just a graphics toolset.

Not really. Just like before, nothing he said disqualifies it from being a graphics engine. We already know it handles more tasks then visual fidelity so saying it does more isn't some new factoid worthy of dissection.

 

27 minutes ago, Stranger said:

Again, what is known can very well be presented to say that the primary purpose or value of the engine is visual. That is what's apparent. It's another thing entirely to say that the engine is just a graphics engine outright, which can't be presented as fact unless it's directly established though either access to the toolset or an explicit statement from the source/authority.

Under that logic I can say that my car is able to fly because I have no explicit statement from Ford telling me it cant. I guess my iphone will give me superpowers too because there is nothing in the service agreement that tells me not to expect that either. Just beacuse Sega never put in giant bold face print that it is strictly a graphics engine doesn't mean we are free to kick the door open and attribute more to it than what has been meticulously presented to us.

 

 

I can make this really simple.

 

During that era, Hedgehog Engine Sonic games had been and continued running Havok for years. Thats physics, collision detection, AI and a bunch of other optimization covered. That's indisputable.

Dolby Digital cornered the market on Audio game engines. Sonic games usually go with that. Done. Finito.

What additional systems beyond graphics and streaming of said graphics are you trying to imply the Hedgehog Engine contributes too? What proof exists that it does anything beyond what has been presented and well documented.

 

"it does more" is not a defensible position.

"enhancing game-play experience" is not a defensible position.

 

 

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My prediction is that it is going to suck ass, if this really is the same team that made Forces. Cashing in my predict-o-bux on an extremely automated, insultingly easy game you can beat in 2 hours where most of the development time was spent surgically removing every single feasible glitch or exploit, even if it actually makes the experience more enjoyable.

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2 hours ago, Stranger said:

The presentation was about Global Illumination in Sonic Unleashed and was not a comprehensive run through the entirety of the Hedgehog Engine's feature set. It's evident that a core intent of the hedgehog Engine was improving the graphics quality and an inherent aspect of functional execution would be dealing with the streaming of a large amount of data due to the speed of traversal across the environment. Despite this, there's a clear difference between the visuals being a primary focus of building the engine and the engine being exclusively and explicitly a graphics/rendering tool: acknowledging the clear focus on lighting/rendering is one thing, but stating that the engine has no functionality outside of that is a step beyond and has no hard basis.

The only press-release I've found on the matter is the one I've quoted from and hand waving away the fact that it explicitly regards the engine having relevance to gameplay twice doesn't change the reality that it's not only a direct statement from a party of authority -especially relative to random people in the fandom- but is also amongst the only explicit statements available that go one way or the other. This also doesn't answer the additional matter of its usage in Puyo Puyo Tetris 2, which has no need or apparent use of Global Illumination, Dynamic Shadows, HDR, or other features for which the engine is known.

It's extremely unusual to see such a confident conclusion so firmly seated in the community despite these things and our limited knowledge besides.

SAKURA WARS IS A BOOST SONIC GAME I LIKE VERY MUCH

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On 6/6/2021 at 8:05 PM, Sega DogTagz said:

Yoshihisa Hashimoto is SEGA in this case. He is the single, most qualified person to discuss the matter at any level of the company.

He does not explicitly call it a graphics engine as you've claimed. Not in one or multiple instances that I've found in multiple languages.

 

On 6/6/2021 at 8:05 PM, Sega DogTagz said:

He clearly defines that creation of the engine was in response to feeling something was missing with 3D graphics circa 2005. He clearly defines that the research and development of the engine deep dived into recreating CGI graphics. He clearly lists the success and failures of his new creation purely by its ability to render and distribute graphics. He clearly lists future goals as being able to better perform the above functions.

And yet he never explicitly states that the engine is a graphics engine and implies in more than one case that it is more than that in passing. The engine itself was also developed as a necessity to do any game development period on the PS3 and 360 as mentioned in my previous comment. What he felt was missing was the reason for the addition of particular features to output the visuals he was aiming for, such as GI generated textures.

 

On 6/6/2021 at 8:05 PM, Sega DogTagz said:

The fact that the Hedgehog Engine has been applied from Sonic, to Tetris to Sakura Wars and everything in-between should be further proof that the engine is not proving a gameplay function.

Sega themselves have gone through great lengths to document what the HE can do from a graphics standpoint, but we haven't been given a shred of data or examples of it doing literally anything else.

If that's sufficient, then the fact that it's been applied to a game that uses none of the features the engine is apparently made to provide when an already functional environment is both available and established would prove that HE doesn't provide a graphics function, which you would call nonsense.

While Hashimoto has done keynotes and interviews, Sega haven't documented the engine in detail outside of those contexts, wherein no explicit statement is made to the ends of supporting what you frame as a decisive conclusion.

 

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All the data, spreadsheets and examples we have of the engine in action are purely from graphical capabilities. It is clearly the bigger assumption that it is more than that - considering the evidence. Therefore burden of proof falls on proving it does more.

 

proof that doesn't exist.

Sega themselves stated twice in the press-release, which you handwave away, that it has gameplay relevance. You can't appeal to their authority when it is convenient and disregard it when it isn't. To top it off, what's being argued isn't primarily that there's more than that, but that a hard conclusion that there definitively isn't is not appropriate.

 

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Newer engines provide better quality of life improvements. Simple as that. It became easier and more cost effective to utilize HE for the sequel so they did.

using the newest technology in your latest product is not some note worthy development. 

Prove that it was cheaper and represented QoL improvements where development was concerned.

 

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None of what he said would fail to apply to a purely graphical engine.

What he said implies that the answer isn't as simple as just acknowledging that it can fit any role due to its genre-independent design. Him calling it an IDE unabashedly refutes the concept that it's a purely graphical engine.

 

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Not really. Just like before, nothing he said disqualifies it from being a graphics engine. We already know it handles more tasks then visual fidelity so saying it does more isn't some new factoid worthy of dissection.

This is just blatant disregard for what was said and what's being argued.

 

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Under that logic I can say that my car is able to fly because I have no explicit statement from Ford telling me it cant. I guess my iphone will give me superpowers too because there is nothing in the service agreement that tells me not to expect that either. Just beacuse Sega never put in giant bold face print that it is strictly a graphics engine doesn't mean we are free to kick the door open and attribute more to it than what has been meticulously presented to us.

No. Under that logic you can't say the car does or doesn't have a feature that Ford hasn't advertised unless you've directly verified through using the vehicle or having had the claim confirmed by inquiry/statement from Ford themselves. By your logic, if Ford only talks about the power and size of the concept car and all we have are a bunch of interviews and pictures that don't explicitly state that there's air-conditioning (and a press-release that does), it can be explicitly said that the car has no air-conditioning by default and that the suggestion that you can't say something like that as a matter of fact is somehow something that needs to be defended while your claim should somehow be the default. In fact, the way you're going about it, if Ford says that the car was built around high horse power and speed with good fuel consumption while maintaining all the typical features a driver would want, you'd argue that that doesn't disqualify the car from not having A/C, despite the point being that the issue is you explicitly saying that it doesn't both in spite of a press release mentioning A/C and your own lack of authority.

 

On 6/6/2021 at 8:29 PM, Enderwoman said:

SAKURA WARS IS A BOOST SONIC GAME I LIKE VERY MUCH

And the Olympic Games Tokyo 2020 might be a fun Sakura Wars spin-off. Or maybe a Lost World spin-off?

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