Sonic Rangers Predictions...

[Sega DogTagz]

2 minutes ago, Stranger said:

He does not explicitly call it a graphics engine as you've claimed. Not in one or multiple instances that I've found in multiple languages.

He's called it an engine specifically designed to handle graphics. He's outlined its goals as being the next gen of graphics.

fish is a fish bro.

 

2 minutes ago, Stranger said:

If that's sufficient, then the fact that it's been applied to a game that uses none of the features the engine is apparently made to provide when an already functional environment is both available and established would prove that HE doesn't provide a graphics function, which you would call nonsense.

Its a graphics engine being used to render graphics for a game. No Tetris isn't pushing the HE to its limits, but that doesn't mean it isn't fit to do the job. Its still capable as a run of the mill graphic engine, and it serves that role even if GI isn't being used.

 

2 minutes ago, Stranger said:

While Hashimoto has done keynotes and interviews, Sega haven't documented the engine in detail outside of those contexts, wherein no explicit statement is made to the ends of supporting what you frame as a decisive conclusion.

So your saying that Sega hasn't detailed the specifics of the engine, save for the multiple hour+ conferences (CODEC 2008 and GDC 2009) dedicated to detailing the specifics of the Hedgehog Engine.

not buying that.

When other people in Sega are questioned about the HE, their responses always default back to graphics. Here is Tetsu Katano, producer of Sakura Wars.

Quote

 

Changing the topic, where there any difficulties during the character modeling process?

Tetsu Katano, producer: “It’s a bit hard to tell from just still screenshots, but a lot of effort has been placed into eye expressions, and the texture of skin and clothing. On the technical side, we’re using the ‘Hedgehog Engine’ from the Sonic series, and using the know-how from the Yakuza series in creating the event scenes, gathering together all our forces from around the company.”

https://www.siliconera.com/project-sakura-wars-uses-sonic-series-hedgehog-engine-know-how-from-yakuza-series/

 

Funny that. Hardly a coincidence tho. Cause it keeps happening. Anytime HE comes up. Graphics are the only thing that are being discussed.

https://tailschannel.com/sonic-the-hedgehog/studio/sonic-forces-development-details-uncovered/

He's a follow up from Forces usage of HE2. Every page of this magazine article is dedicated to graphics and rendering. Its even labeled "this is what HE2 is all about". Not a whisper about anything other than graphics.

Are we establishing a trend here? I think so.

 

2 minutes ago, Stranger said:

Sega themselves stated twice in the press-release, which you handwave away, that it has gameplay relevance. You can't appeal to their authority when it is convenient and disregard it when it isn't.

The press release says nothing more than the engine helps to enhance the gameplay experience. Sound does that too. Sonic's specific shade of blue does that as well. Where they put every blade of grass can be described as enhancing the gameplay experience.

Its not a handwave. Its acknowledging that you cant merge the sum of the parts to attribute additional worth to each of the components. Stating the HE enhances gameplay is not a signal that it has some direct impact on it. Graphics are a part of the game and good, smooth graphics make it more enjoyable. Thats all that is being said there. Why you are taking it and running to the expectation that the engine somehow does more than that is beyond me.

 

2 minutes ago, Stranger said:

Prove that it was cheaper and represented QoL improvements where development was concerned.

Common sense business practice. I don't think I need to prove it was cheaper, considering Sonic Team wouldn't have to pay to use their own piece of coding. lol

As for quality of life, the above Tails Channel magazine scans help highlight those. It shows how the HE2 fixed some of the shortcomings of the first, and they were able to utilize it to edit results in near real time in-game via compatibility with Maya AutoDesk. Not having to wait hours for renders is a big QoL boost in my book.

Furthermore, thanks to the HE2 interconnection with consoles, it specifically labels production efficiency was greatly improved and thanks to the HE2 they were able to complete a large scale project with a smaller amount of people.

Those kind of benefits are baked right into the HE2 and would be universal to any game you apply it to.

2 minutes ago, Stranger said:

No. Under that logic you can't say the car does or doesn't have a feature that Ford hasn't advertised unless you've directly verified through using the vehicle or having had the claim confirmed by inquiry/statement from Ford themselves. By your logic, if Ford only talks about the power and size of the concept car and all we have are a bunch of interviews and pictures that don't explicitly state that there's air-conditioning, it can be explicitly said that the car has no air-conditioning by default and that the suggestion that you can't say something like that as a matter of fact is somehow something that needs to be defended while your claim should somehow be the default. In fact, the way you're going about it, if Ford says that the car was built around high horse power and speed with good fuel consumption while maintaining all the typical features a driver would want, you'd argue that that doesn't disqualify the car from not having A/C, despite the point being that the issue is explicitly saying that it doesn't.

A long winded way of dodging the key question.

What exactly are you implying the HE does on top of push graphics?  

[Endy]

literally every time super sega sonic team has spoken about Their hedgehog engine it has been in regards to brand new Features with their game visuals and not the game play function

even if you were to suspect their Amazing Hedgehog Engine has bearing on the game play of the game you have no basis to claim this as an absolute

it is SIMPLY BEST to acknowledge as mere speculation move on and drink some water

[StellarBlur]

I think there's a 50/50 chance we see the game in the following week or two. If I had to guess, we're most likely to see it at the Summer Game Fest on thursday since that even has the Sonic Symphony. Otherwise, I'd look for it in Nintendo's E3 Direct or MS's show.

[Shade Vortex]

I on the other hand think there's next to no chance we'll see it until 9 months later, if they follow the Forces teaser-to-reveal cycle.

And honestly, it would make a lot of sense to not talk about their new game until after Sonic Colors Ultimate comes out and has had a chance to make whatever sales it could. Game devs usually don't try to compete with their own products.

But I'm not gonna make any bets, because I have a bizarre superpower to be wrong the more certain I am about something (note:  it's just a high tendency for that to happen).

[StellarBlur]

1 hour ago, Shade Vortex said:

I on the other hand think there's next to no chance we'll see it until 9 months later, if they follow the Forces teaser-to-reveal cycle.

And honestly, it would make a lot of sense to not talk about their new game until after Sonic Colors Ultimate comes out and has had a chance to make whatever sales it could. Game devs usually don't try to compete with their own products.

But I'm not gonna make any bets, because I have a bizarre superpower to be wrong the more certain I am about something (note:  it's just a high tendency for that to happen).

This scenario is why I said it's 50/50. With that said, I think it's weird that they haven't uploaded the footage of the 2022 game to youtube or their social media. Other Sonic games followed a teaser to reveal cycle way shorter than the Forces one. At the end of the day, it depends on whether or not this game is H1 2022 or holiday 2022 I guess. If it was originally planned for holiday 2021 and then delayed to H1 2022, I'm fairly confident it'll show in the next 1-2 weeks. However, at the end of the day, it is all speculation.

[SonicXTails]

I believe will see at least a little more during E3. 

Ok, I hope we will see more at E3 haha

 

[Whatever the WhoCares]

I hope they give Crush 40 something to do. They're not getting any younger, quite frankly. 

[shdowhunt60]

On 6/7/2021 at 12:11 AM, SonicXTails said:

I believe will see at least a little more during E3. 

Ok, I hope we will see more at E3 haha

 

If that was the case, I'd expect SEGA to have a much more stronger presence at E3 than they seem to be having, and I don't think they would have bothered with the Sonic Central broadcast that they released just a couple weeks ago. Because if they were going to be showing off Rangers, then I'd also expect them to show off Lost Judgement at the same time, and those two would provide for a pretty substantial show as it is. But that's not currently the case.

I mean, we don't even know what time in 2022 that Rangers is supposed to be releasing. It could be early 2022, it could be late 2022. We don't know, but given how much marketing right now is directed at Colors Ultimate I'm going to hazard that it's gonna be awhile before we hear anything again from Rangers if we don't here anything before the end of the month.

[Wraith]

One last collection of speculative thoughts based on leaks/the initial trailer.  Here's my hard read on Sonic Rangers based on everything I know:
 

Spoiler

 

WHAT IS SONIC RANGERS?
Sonic Rangers will be a combination of the boost formula and open world action games with a premise evocative of the classic games and an artstyle/tone more in line with the first Sonic Adventure. It will take Sonic on a journey to a new world. An island with ruins of ancient technology that seem to connect to some kind of digital world.

STORY
I can imagine a story more in-line with Secret Rings-Colors than any of the later stuff Kishimoto directed. Sonic will wander into a new world, meet new friends and make new enemies. The fact that no one else features in the teaser trailer and the leaks only mention one other character(the ghost girl) make me think that the only other returning character is Dr. Eggman, who will be the source of the corruption spreading through the world. A new character will play Tails's usual role as the tutorial bot, so he won't appear much either unless he's the one that drops Sonic off.

The ghost girl is probably going to look more like Shahra/Merlina than an actual realistic human. It makes me wonder if they noticed the praise for Secret Rings and Black Knight's stories and tried to mesh some of those ideas with a classic Sonic setup.

The themes of the story will be focused on nature v technology again, but with the more optimistic viewpoint Sonic CD presented in it's good endings where they are allowed to work in unison. This is why I don't think the world will be completely virtual: there will be a symbiotic relationship between the real one and the virtual one as Sonic navigates between both. It'll be like the special stages of old but with more of a sense of place.

The "Rangers" referred to in the title are probably this worlds protectors, and I expect them to be either long dead and manifested in the form of ghosts, or take the form of the boss fights we heard about in the leaks. Or...well, both of those things. Breath of the Wild is apparently a big inspiration for this game and tackled similar ideas.

Overall, I think this will be a throwback to the first couple of Sonic games, but with SA1's artstyle and some other odd bits and pieces taken from Kishimoto's modern Sonic games pre Forces.

GAMEPLAY
I'm 99% certain they actually are going through with open world unless some kind of serious restructuring happened. The main hook of the game will be the freedom you get: the thrill of being able to take off in any direction and tackle challenges that look interesting to you. Big towers and boss battles can be seen in the distance and tackled in any order. "Orbs" seem to be rewarded from a variety of objectives so players will have a lot of ways to progress the main quest.

Because of how free-form this is I expect the story to take a back seat the same way it did in other modern games, but I'm alright with this as long as it means the jokes are kept to a minimum.

I think we're ultimately due for something similar to the modern games than the from-the-ground-up reimagining of Sonic's movement most people were hoping for. It's how most casual players have come to understand Sonic's gameplay and powers over the years(does he even curl into a ball in the movie?) so I guess they don't see any point in trying to change that. The main gimmick of the game seems to be a "Boost lite" that probably won't speed him up nearly as much as before.  Sonic draws out ancient runes with it in the teaser. The spin cycle is just one. That other rune in the trailer is probably another one that causes something completely different to happen.

I can't see Sonic's movement being much more complex than that considering it hasn't been in years and they're seemingly trying to make Sonic games LESS complex, but there's reference to an ability tree with unlockable stuff. Maybe some of Lost World's movement options will come back as optional tools.

If the return of the multi-homing attack detail is a reference to Lost World's homing attack, that along with the spin cycle makes me think Sonic will be fighting a large volume of enemies this time around. One of the best ways to pad out an open world is enemy encampments that the developers can make quickly and place anywhere. Combat in Sonic games has basically never been good so I'm not excited about this, but I think it's one of the  only ways a game like this is feasible.

Leakers also mention puzzles a lot but I bet this is as simple as tracing crop circles in certain places like in the trailer. I can't imagine this game having a more in-depth physics system to facilitate breath of the wild style puzzles or anything like that.

Basically: Puzzles, combat and towers will be how they pad out the game in-between the cyber space sections, which will be comparable to Generations in terms of speed. I can't see these levels being nearly as complex as Generations when you consider everything else they have to make though. The cyber space might be an excuse for more abstract visuals which I wouldn't mind.

Oh, and Sonic will almost certainly be the only playable character so just nip that speculation in the bud. It's a new style that seems primarily focused on Sonic's abilities first, and it doesn't seem like the other characters are going to feature much in any capacity.

Do I think this sounds fun? Not really, but it's what they're going with so might as well brace ourselves.

 

 

[SBR2]

IDK. If it's actually called "Rangers" I have a hard time believing only Sonic will be playable. The plural use of Rangers gives me a vibe there'll be at least a few other playable characters. 

Maybe follow the formula of the 3DS Boom games in a way where there's paths only Tails or only Knuckles can get to or something and it helps open the map more.

[KingMario05]

T-minus two hours to the Microsoft showcase. Whatever Rangers is, it'll probably get shown off there.

Brace yourselves, gents... it's happening.

Finally.

3 hours ago, Wraith said:

Oh, and Sonic will almost certainly be the only playable character so just nip that speculation in the bud. It's a new style that seems primarily focused on Sonic's abilities first, and it doesn't seem like the other characters are going to feature much in any capacity.

I dunno, I think I'm with SBR2 here. If Sega release a game called "Sonic Rangers" and the only playable characters are just Sonic and a bunch of noobs no one gives a shit about, I think that'll finally make several fans just give up on the series entirely.

Sega knows this. Obviously, they don't want this. Ergo... we're getting someone else people love.

Spoiler

Now, will it be my man Tails? Probably not, I'm afraid. Still, even just getting Shadow back is one hell of a start.

 

[Blue Blood]

Just now, KingMario05 said:

T-minus two hours to the Microsoft showcase. Whatever Rangers is, it'll probably get shown off there.

What makes you say that?

[KingMario05]

Yakuza: Like a Dragon had timed next-gen exclusivity on Xbox, PSO2 is a permanent Xbox/PC exclusive here in the West (or, at least, is until further notice), Sega's been a huge Game Pass supplier and the event's got a built-in audience of millions thanks to Halo and Starfield. 

If it ain't shown off here, it won't be shown off this E3. It's that simple.

[StellarBlur]

At this point, I think we can be fairly confident it won't be at E3 unfortunately since it was not a tie-in to the Summer Game Fest Symphony performance. That's really weird to me since the other two musical performances in the SGF were used to promote specific games. I think the best we'll get is Colors Ultimate in the direct.

[phobs]

New interview with Takashi Izuka got released and when he was asked about Sonic 2022, he basically said "Sorry, I can't talk about it." So, if you expect to see anything Sonic Rangers related on E3, the chances of it are very close to 0. However, what I would like to bring attention to is the following part of the interview:

Quote

As you look back at its first 30 years, what do you feel are the biggest accomplishments of the Sonic franchise, and how do you hope to make the next 30 years even better?

We have had many key points in the past 30 years of Sonic history. Of course, the first key point would be the success of the Genesis – that has to be the greatest achievement of them all. Because of that success we launched an animated show, comic books, and many other forms of media. The next big key point was the transition from 2D gameplay to 3D gameplay with the Sonic Adventure series. We were able to recreate the thrill and sensations from the 2D side-scrolling games in a 3D environment, which was the foundation for the current Sonic titles. The next big key point came last year, and it wasn't related to games, but rather the release of the hit movie. With the release of the movie, I could feel everyone immediately recognizing Sonic. If we look back at the historical accomplishments, we can see that both the advancements of the games as well as the expansion of the media have led us to such a successful achievement. I will focus on those two very important points as we move forward to the next 30-year milestone.

Interestingly, he doesn't mention boost as the key point. Could it mean that we could see new take on Sonic Adventure formula in Rangers?

[VO.SUPER]

To me, this part of the interview was more interesting:

Quote

After Sonic Forces, many fans have been curious about what the next mainline Sonic game from Sonic Team will be like. Now that it's officially announced, can you give any details about the kind of gameplay they should expect from the new game?

Thank you for being so patient. Ever since the release of Sonic Forces, Sonic Team in Japan was trying many different approaches to deliver a next-gen Sonic experience. While celebrating 30 years of Sonic titles and thinking about what the modern gameplay experience should be for a Sonic title, we also needed to think about what path forward we should plan to take for the next decade. There is a lot I can't yet talk about, but we are working hard on the title. We look forward to sharing more information about this title in the future.

It's clear that Sonic team are looking for a winner in this formula so that they can replicate it further. So if this open world stuff holds true, it's clear that Sonic Team want something that they can actually iterate on and expand versus stagnating like boost did, or throwing away like they did with Lost World.

I mean, that's obvious, but it does make me feel a little more confident that there is a vision to this project and it's not pivoting in a million directions. The way I see it the best thing SEGA can do is just keep going with what they were planning and refine it as best as they can instead of just switching direction on the project at the last second like some of the worst games have ended up.

[celsowm]

This note about "stream data" is very interesting about a possible advance on Hedgehog engine to support open world maps/stages. I am a little optimistic now

[Dr. Detective]

Seeing as how they're not the ones handling Colors Ultimate and Origins is just another whatever collection, at the very least it seems like their four years was spent focusing on this game.

It still sucks that the other two 30th anniversary celebratory titles had to suffer for it, if true, but it'll at least be something I guess...

Then again, I don't know how the pandemic factored into everything either. Other companies managed to release games that weren't broken during it so it wouldn't be an excuse but this is Sonic Team so it's possible.

Also, Rangers being plural doesn't mean anything to me. It could just ad easily be talking about some group of side characters that are important to the story. The "Sonic Forces" (still an awful name) that we got to play as ended up being Sonic, another Sonic, and OC Sonic with Shadow as a DLC character that can't even be played in all the Modern Sonic stages or the bosses.

So, no hopes up for that idea. Especially now after seeing that Tails icon in Colors Ultimate and letting my guard down a bit there only to have that backfire. 

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

On 6/13/2021 at 11:30 AM, phobs said:

New interview with Takashi Izuka got released and when he was asked about Sonic 2022, he basically said "Sorry, I can't talk about it." So, if you expect to see anything Sonic Rangers related on E3, the chances of it are very close to 0. However, what I would like to bring attention to is the following part of the interview:

Interestingly, he doesn't mention boost as the key point. Could it mean that we could see new take on Sonic Adventure formula in Rangers?

Imo you're reading that wrong. He literally says that the Adventure titles were the foundation for the current 3D titles and that is consistent with what ST has communicated about 3D sonic for the last decade. They have said that the "boost" titles are an evolution on what the early 3D titles were... and they are basically right, especially if you're looking from SA2 onwards.

 

In many interviews Iizuka even says he wishes he could go back and fix the adventure titles based on what he has learned with the modern titles, so he clearly doesn't see them as some great success of style that the boost games weren't able to match, quite the opposite actually. But they are all a part of Sonic's history, flawed as it may be, and advancing the gameplay forward. And clearly ST is trying to do that again with this new title.

 

I don't think the new title will have virtually anything to do with Sonic Adventure tbh. Maybe a nod here or there but fundamentally it will be a different game with a different direction. If you're holding out hope that this will pick up where they left off.....i'd advise against that, you're going to be disappointed.

[Enesephus]

27 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

In many interviews Iizuka even says he wishes he could go back and fix the adventure titles based on what he has learned with the modern titles, so he clearly doesn't see them as some great success of style that the boost games weren't able to match, quite the opposite actually. 

Geez, I've been one of the people wishing for an Adventure Remake, but maybe it's a good thing we'll never get one if Boost-ifying it would be his idea of an update. 

[BadBehavior]

53 minutes ago, Enesephus said:

Geez, I've been one of the people wishing for an Adventure Remake, but maybe it's a good thing we'll never get one if Boost-ifying it would be his idea of an update. 

Amen to that. Especailly if they use tricks from the Forces handbook. Gonna permanently lose hope in Sega if that happens.

[DabigRG]

I was gonna ask why the game would be called Rangers, but I see talk of playable characters has been headed off.

[Sega DogTagz]

You could call Sonic and many of his friends freelance Forest Rangers, so there is that too.

 

lol

[KingMario05]

1 hour ago, Sega DogTagz said:

You could call Sonic and many of his friends freelance Forest Rangers, so there is that too.

 

lol

"Only you can prevent wildfires, Shadow!"

"But what If I'm the one causing the wildfires... FAKER?!?!?"

 

[Whatever the WhoCares]

The thing about the boost formula is… how are they going to implement it in an open world? I mean, Sonic has to be a little slower and more maneuverable for an open world to even work. Then again, they’re presenting Colors Ultimate as an entry game for newcomers, so maybe they’ll use the boost anyway.