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SEGA appeal to casuals and newcomers and ignore long-time fans way too much


Johnster4
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Zoomzeta
5 minutes ago, Ricochet said:

No. They don't seem to be resorting on those trends due to facing technical hurdles in the implementation of another approach.

What? 

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Rabbitearsblog

While I understand why SEGA is catering towards the casuals and the younger audience more often than not (because Sonic the Hedgehog is mainly a franchise geared towards kids for the most part and so, it would make sense for SEGA to gear more towards that audience than towards the older audience), the way that SEGA is going about this doesn't seem right.  It seems like SEGA thinks that making the franchise kid friendly means that they should sacrifice good storytelling and gameplay just to make things "simple" for the casual and younger audience.  To me, that sounds like they are insulting the casual and younger viewers by saying that they would be better off if the games are more "simple" rather than give them games that have good storytelling and good gameplay.  Just because you are making something kid-friendly, doesn't mean that you should not bother with writing a good story or not making the gameplay fun to play.

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nobukitsu88

That's how I feel about it. 

I am not saying games have to be death-defyingly hard or frustrating. (In fact, most games shouldn't be). But I don't know why some people think kids don't want challenge or some sense of stake involved like something changed in the last 10 years even. 

So while I get that kids are the audience, it underestimates them to say they don't care about challenge (instant gratification) or that they don't care about lore or story. Many of us here got into various franchises/shows meant for kids as kids ourselves (Zelda for example). Especially with games like Sonic most kids can get the hang of them quickly. 

As others said, the key is a well designed game. So I can't help but feel like the Tails save in an already easy game is already plenty redundant and isn't the best way to offer options for players who also want challenge (such as a normal difficulty mode with the developer-intended difficulty, along with a optional easy mode. )

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Ricochet
1 hour ago, Zoomzeta said:

What? 

I mean, you're talking about the last paragraph right?, when I said I believed a script  is going to be held back if  a sonic story is told the same old way as always(sonic beats stage, cutscene, sonic beats next stage, cutscene... and so on). 

And by technical hurdles I understood difficulties in a sonic game development in trying new stuff instead of sticking to the usual way  they've been doing those so far.  

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Johnster4
16 hours ago, VisionaryofSUPER said:

I always saw the ranking system as well as collectible hunting as fine enough incentives for more difficult design because they rely on more out of the way techniques in the hands of players.

That is true but then again Forces already trivialised the ranking system by giving people daily challenges and 3 different collectables of each level

16 hours ago, VisionaryofSUPER said:

I find SA2 to be a pretty easy game to just complete, barring a few levels, but going out of the way for the extra missions shows the level of depth in design that a casual would never approach.

I do agree that SA2 is a good example of how there is a balance of catering to both casual and hardcore fans with letting casuals enjoys the story from start to finish while giving hardcore fans content to presume the extra content and high skill gap to obtain A ranks in each level

 

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21 hours ago, Ricochet said:

Also, Ian's work is bland as hell.

I will always say people who hate Ian Flynn's writing should read literally anything other than Sonic. Even when it came to Archie as much as I love the man's Sonic work I'd be hard pressed to call it his best stuff.

Anyway on topic I really don't think there's anything wrong with making the game's appeal to a wider audience. And honestly as much as people complain about how they're not being exclusively catered to...it's working. Sonic is continually Sega's #1 franchise. I think we as Sonic fans really need to leave our bubble sometimes and see what people actually think about Sonic especially kids. I know my cousins kids are just getting into Sonic through the movie. Kids like Sonic and there's nothing wrong with making it accessible to them. 

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nobukitsu88
1 hour ago, SBR2 said:

Anyway on topic I really don't think there's anything wrong with making the game's appeal to a wider audience. And honestly as much as people complain about how they're not being exclusively catered to...it's working. Sonic is continually Sega's #1 franchise. I think we as Sonic fans really need to leave our bubble sometimes and see what people actually think about Sonic especially kids. I know my cousins kids are just getting into Sonic through the movie. Kids like Sonic and there's nothing wrong with making it accessible to them. 

Respectfully, I think for most people it isn't about being individually catered to though. For most people just smartly implemented difficulty options for example. If that's the case, any time someone gives constructive criticism it could be dismissed as complaining. 

For example in my case, I feel like having a standard difficulty mode available helps with an optional assist mode for people who absolutely are unable to do. 

But again, generically speaking, most kids like some sense of challenge as a default. I am all for adding accessibility and having a broader audience available with optional features and think that is cool. But I respectfully can't subscribe to the "but kids" excuse as a basic premise for some issues such as lackluster story or gameplay (which kids enjoy too). Plus Sonic has always been one of SEGA's top franchises since debut.

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1 hour ago, mitsunari88 said:

Respectfully, I think for most people it isn't about being individually catered to though. For most people just smartly implemented difficulty options for example. If that's the case, any time someone gives constructive criticism it could be dismissed as complaining. 

For example in my case, I feel like having a standard difficulty mode available helps with an optional assist mode for people who absolutely are unable to do. 

But again, generically speaking, most kids like some sense of challenge as a default. I am all for adding accessibility and having a broader audience available with optional features and think that is cool. But I respectfully can't subscribe to the "but kids" excuse as a basic premise for some issues such as lackluster story or gameplay (which kids enjoy too). Plus Sonic has always been one of SEGA's top franchises since debut.

I do think kids are smart but I also don't think a lot of them care or really pick up on nuances in stories. I watched Coraline with my cousins daughter when she was like 11 or 12 and she was wanting to live in the Other Mothers world until it was made more clear there were sinister things going on.

Look I get it kids shouldn't be talked down to in stories but we also need to remember that sometimes there's nothing wrong with things for kids being more simplistic. I see people complain about stuff like Paw Patrol but y'know what? My cousins son whoes about 8 or 9 fucking loves Paw Patrol. I think it should matter more what kids actually enjoy instead of what we a bunch of 20-30 year olds enjoy.

As for difficulty I won't deny that I would like to see at least a Mario Odyssey level difficulty in a Sonic game. 

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Rabbitearsblog
3 hours ago, SBR2 said:

I will always say people who hate Ian Flynn's writing should read literally anything other than Sonic. Even when it came to Archie as much as I love the man's Sonic work I'd be hard pressed to call it his best stuff.

Anyway on topic I really don't think there's anything wrong with making the game's appeal to a wider audience. And honestly as much as people complain about how they're not being exclusively catered to...it's working. Sonic is continually Sega's #1 franchise. I think we as Sonic fans really need to leave our bubble sometimes and see what people actually think about Sonic especially kids. I know my cousins kids are just getting into Sonic through the movie. Kids like Sonic and there's nothing wrong with making it accessible to them. 

I also agree that there's nothing wrong with Sonic being catered to kids.  Sonic as a franchise has always been geared towards kids ever since its debut.  However, I don't like the stance that SEGA seems to be on where the stories and the gameplay are terrible because they want to make it "easy" for the newcomers.  Making a game appropriate for the newcomers doesn't mean that you have to sacrifice good storytelling and good gameplay to get that audience.  SEGA would need to start working even harder on the games moving forward if they want to make a good first impression for the incoming new fans who want to play the games.

9 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

Look I get it kids shouldn't be talked down to in stories but we also need to remember that sometimes there's nothing wrong with things for kids being more simplistic. I see people complain about stuff like Paw Patrol but y'know what? My cousins son whoes about 8 or 9 fucking loves Paw Patrol. I think it should matter more what kids actually enjoy instead of what we a bunch of 20-30 year olds enjoy.

So about Paw Patrol?  Why are so many people complaining about that show?  I've never seen the show before, but it seems to be hated by a lot of people. Why is that?

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42 minutes ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

 

So about Paw Patrol?  Why are so many people complaining about that show?  I've never seen the show before, but it seems to be hated by a lot of people. Why is that?

I have no idea. I've barely watchedit while waiting for new Power Rangers episodes but I don't go out of my way to watch it. It seems harmless to me though.

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Johnster4
1 hour ago, SBR2 said:

Look I get it kids shouldn't be talked down to in stories but we also need to remember that sometimes there's nothing wrong with things for kids being more simplistic.

Sonic Team have done this for the past 10 years and most of the time it's too simplistic to the point where nothing is ever explained.

For example

  • In Sonic Lost World Tails knows about the lost hex and he never explains what it is and ultimately knows more than the player before and after the game it's bad story telling if the characters know more about important details that are in the game than you do
  • Also In Lost World Eggman capturing the Zeti's off screen, just comes out of no where, which leads the player to ask when did this happen.
  • In Sonic Forces the whole idea of Omega being damaged, Tails unable to repair him, but comes back at the final hour of the game with no explanation.

I'll give an example outside of Sonic in Final Fantasy XV. At the mid point of the game, Ignis one of your party members of the game get blinded during a time where your group gets separated, imagine if Final Fantasy XV release without any of the DLC planned that would have explained what happened ignis, that is the exact same problem Sonic games have with their stories currently.

1 hour ago, SBR2 said:

I do think kids are smart but I also don't think a lot of them care or really pick up on nuances in stories

I'm going to share my experience with Sonic Adventure when I first played it, I didn't really understand the backstory of the Echidna tribe, Tikal, the Chao , and Chaos. It wasn't until when I got older and replayed it that I fully understand the Echidna tribe wanted the conquer land, Tikal wanted the war to stop, and why the Chao were important to chaos because he was a mutated chao himself. Kids might not pick up story details the first time but what separates great storytelling like the Adventure games to bad storytelling like the whole of the 2010's is how chances are people will go back to the games they played as a child and appreciate the details put into the stories that they didn't pay attention to.

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Kazhnuz
1 hour ago, Johnster4 said:
  • In Sonic Lost World Tails knows about the lost hex and he never explains what it is and ultimately knows more than the player before and after the game it's bad story telling if the characters know more about important details that are in the game than you do
  • Also In Lost World Eggman capturing the Zeti's off screen, just comes out of no where, which leads the player to ask when did this happen.
  • In Sonic Forces the whole idea of Omega being damaged, Tails unable to repair him, but comes back at the final hour of the game with no explanation.

Those three elements are kinda different though, as Sonic Lost World actually have a simple story (thus doesn't feel the need to explain why the new magical places exists) and those stuff are simply the status quo of the game ("Sonic come to this new land where Eggman captured resident villains to do his whill"), while Forces have a more convoluted one (it's not just a linear and the stuff you says is a lack in the actual story (as it's the transition between two states of the story). They certainly don't have the same cause, as if it was made with just "simplicity" in mind they wouldn't have added this subplot to begin with XD

And IMO, the simpler stories aren't especially meant for "casuals" or whatever. Especially as most Sonic story weren't really created with a deep lore that in mind that was needed to understand the next game, but with an "every game can be the first game" in mind (except some like Shadow, that were explicit sequels).

( Especially as the "simpler stories" were a lot a demand of "older fans" at that time, so I think it's a bit more complicated than just a will to appeal to "newbies/casuals")

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Snowragnarok

Forces is more half-and-half, but failing at both; the darker storyline was likely an attempt to appeal to older fans, as are the remixed music tracks, the Shadow DLC, Classic’s inexplicable return. Otherwise, indeed there are slightly too many casual projects.

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I'm really not seeing the difference between Sonic having lore that only matters for one game and literally any other episodic series. 

I don't know to me a lot of this stuff about how deep Sonic's lore used to be feels overblown. Like at most tge biggest continuing stories were the Death Egg Saga and Shadow's storyline. Pretty much everything else is only important to the game it's in.

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Sonic was always for kids and thats how it should be, the corny earnest stories are the kinda things kids go nuts for. The problem once again is that sega keeps making games that are not good.

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Meta77

This is the forces story I wanted. Instead as soon as I saw classic sonic I knew we were not getting it. That and the fact outside sonic being captured the story is really light hearted overall with the whole team work can defeat anything driving point. Plus that final fight with shadow dancing back and forth into enemies was so badly animated. But while sega is driving to appeal to kids Id like to think they could do something like with IDW. Sure kids can read it as well but the stories are so much deeper than anything sega has pumped out since....well Colors cause that is where it went downhill for me.

61882.jpg

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Rabbitearsblog
3 hours ago, Meta77 said:

This is the forces story I wanted. Instead as soon as I saw classic sonic I knew we were not getting it. That and the fact outside sonic being captured the story is really light hearted overall with the whole team work can defeat anything driving point. Plus that final fight with shadow dancing back and forth into enemies was so badly animated. But while sega is driving to appeal to kids Id like to think they could do something like with IDW. Sure kids can read it as well but the stories are so much deeper than anything sega has pumped out since....well Colors cause that is where it went downhill for me.

61882.jpg

That's the sad thing.  The IDW comics have much better written stories than the games do and they are also geared towards children! So, why can't SEGA write good stories for the games like the IDW comics?

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Whatever the WhoCares

I actually think that what the casuals really want lines up with what the fans want. Chao, for example. Any time there’s a press event for a new Sonic game, the interviewer wants to know if the Chao will be in it. And the answer is always the same: no they won’t. 
Unpopular opinion: 3D Sonic games have never really felt complete without Chao. 

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Johnster4
18 hours ago, Natie said:

Sonic was always for kids and thats how it should be, the corny earnest stories are the kinda things kids go nuts for.

What good story moments came from Colors - TSR that made "kids go nuts for"?

18 hours ago, Meta77 said:

But while sega is driving to appeal to kids Id like to think they could do something like with IDW. Sure kids can read it as well but the stories are so much deeper than anything sega has pumped out since....well Colors cause that is where it went downhill for me.

 

15 hours ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

That's the sad thing.  The IDW comics have much better written stories than the games do and they are also geared towards children! So, why can't SEGA write good stories for the games like the IDW comics?

I should bring this up, but what I hope SEGA never do is get IDW write the stories in a comic, I don't the story details to be locked behind a paywall instead of getting Ian Flynn to write the story and put it in the base game.

 

19 hours ago, SBR2 said:

I'm really not seeing the difference between Sonic having lore that only matters for one game and literally any other episodic series. 

I don't know to me a lot of this stuff about how deep Sonic's lore used to be feels overblown. Like at most tge biggest continuing stories were the Death Egg Saga and Shadow's storyline. Pretty much everything else is only important to the game it's in.

And that's why I brought up Sonic Adventure 1 as a good example the lore is self contained to that one game, I'm not asking for a 3 part trilogy where the 3 game stories that directly tied together, I want character development and back story for new characters that are well done, this can all be done in a self contained story in one game.

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7 hours ago, Johnster4 said:

What good story moments came from Colors - TSR that made "kids go nuts for"?

Im talking about the adventure era lol

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KnuxDLX

What I don’t like is the way they specifically mention that they are trying to appeal to Mario fans in particular without demonstrating a comprehensible knowledge about what makes so many people want to play Mario games in the first place.
 

I don’t think that many people play Mario games because they honestly believe that Mario is the coolest guy in the universe, the greatest video game character of all time, (although he is indisputably an icon and a legend). They play Mario because almost every Mario game is widely regarded as a world class creation in the art of video games that most players strongly encourage everyone to play at least once just for the experience. 
 

Sonic games seem to have been missing that kind of innovative, highly-recommended experience for some time now. 
 

I feel like Sega should have considered themselves above such comparisons since at least the first Mario & Sonic game. Instead it almost feels like those games immortalized Sonic’s race to catch up to Mario’s fame and acclaim. I don’t think that kind of competition leads to good art, which I believe speaks for itself in this case.

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Rabbitearsblog
7 hours ago, KnuxDLX said:

What I don’t like is the way they specifically mention that they are trying to appeal to Mario fans in particular without demonstrating a comprehensible knowledge about what makes so many people want to play Mario games in the first place.
 

I don’t think that many people play Mario games because they honestly believe that Mario is the coolest guy in the universe, the greatest video game character of all time, (although he is indisputably an icon and a legend). They play Mario because almost every Mario game is widely regarded as a world class creation in the art of video games that most players strongly encourage everyone to play at least once just for the experience. 
 

Sonic games seem to have been missing that kind of innovative, highly-recommended experience for some time now. 
 

I feel like Sega should have considered themselves above such comparisons since at least the first Mario & Sonic game. Instead it almost feels like those games immortalized Sonic’s race to catch up to Mario’s fame and acclaim. I don’t think that kind of competition leads to good art, which I believe speaks for itself in this case.

I agree with this.  I think that SEGA is trying too hard to make the Sonic games like Mario, without realizing what made Sonic into a gaming icon in the first place.  Sonic was meant to counteract Mario and ever since the SEGA Dreamcast went downhill, SEGA never quite competed with Nintendo on the same level as they did years ago.  I think that SEGA should start competing with Nintendo again just so they could have better insight on improving the franchise without borrowing so many elements from the Nintendo games.

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Meta77

I mean I don't play Mario games cause of any art reasons.  I play Mario games because they are actually good and usually if not all hold up years later. Except sunshine imo

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Rabbitearsblog
7 hours ago, Meta77 said:

I mean I don't play Mario games cause of any art reasons.  I play Mario games because they are actually good and usually if not all hold up years later. Except sunshine imo

Yeah, that's the reason why a lot of people like the Mario games, because they are good.  Not just because of their gameplay style or anything like that.

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KnuxDLX
On 6/9/2021 at 10:58 AM, Meta77 said:

I mean I don't play Mario games cause of any art reasons.  I play Mario games because they are actually good and usually if not all hold up years later. Except sunshine imo

What do you think art is? And Sunshine is the best Mario game so this is wrong by default.

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