The Classic/Modern Character Embargo

[Endy]

4 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

And no, classic-modern division hasn't always existed. Post-Reboot Archie in 2013 was explicitly a version of Archie Sonic that was heavily more tightened-up by SEGA and required immense levels of battle on Ian's part to get them to shift gears on decisions (The SatAM cast being the core example). Ian himself has gone on point saying SEGA's decisions and 'mandates' change on a dime and he has to keep playing it by ear because what they say is fine one week might not be fine the next week. This has very specifically only become a issue recently with Forces and Mania driving the stake in dividing Classic and Modern.

 

What he has been saying the whole time is that you can't use Archie as justification for what they can get away with because it was specifically a special case of Archie and Sega ignoring eachother and not following normal licensing protocol.

[Iko]

I hate this mandate and would like to see both modern and classic characters meet each other in the same universe regardless of the artstyle. I'm part of those people who would like to see official modern versions of the classic-only characters and official classic-versions of the modern-only ones.

17 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

(Heck, in Mario and Sonic 2020, Sonic and Eggman revert to their classic designs when they get sucked into the game console, which doesn't make much sense unless they once did actually look like that.)

The difference is the shade of blue... other dimension Classic Sonic has a lighter shade of blue while main dimension Classic Sonic aka past Sonic is darker blue like Modern. I know, it's ridicolous, but probably that's it.

[Mauro Fonseca]

 

5 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

(long post cut for easy scrolling through thread)

I'm going to straight up ignore all you say about Archie because again, my point re: Archie is it had a special set of circumstances. It got to keep using SatAM until 2017 or so, after all. We know the circumstances of its licensing were straight up just not normal, as made clear by how different stuff has been in IDW, which hasn't been entirely just because "changed on a dime".

Ignoring Archie, from Adventure onwards, when did the characters from classic games not made or co-made by Sonic Team ever get used? Some got considered for Heroes, then forgotten. Some got in a couple cameos in Generations where the entire point of the cameo was exactly the fact that they'd never gotten used since. It's exactly the fact that Sonic Team doesn't want to use those characters that makes the joke way they're used in that game in the first place. Mania? Mania's already "new classic Sonic brand". Mania's already made under the provision of "we were going to keep the revival of the old art style to Generations, but people responded well, so now it's a new sub-brand. We might as well bless the use of all that 90s content we normally don't use because we don't care for it, since this is a separate thing anyways".

 

Sonic X didn't get Mighty. Sonic 06 didn't have a playable Bean. Fang would've made sense to bring back ever since SA2, and never was. These characters were separated into "irrelevant and nonexistence" from the moment Heroes reinvented the Chaotix and closed the doors on returning characters. Nowadays, those characters actually get to be used in new games, merchandise, etc. That's the only difference that's happened.

[Iko]

I wonder, if Sonic Heroes did feature some of those "forgotten characters" like originally planned, would they have become modern characters and be unable to appear in the classic series like happend with the Chaotix, who were once classic characters too?

This is why I think this universe-split is especially stupid.

The fact that the "forgotten characters" where planned for heroes and likely scrapped for design reasons means that they weren't off limits at the time, and that the classic-modern split didn't exist at all, else we would have never seen the Chaotix in Heroes in the first place.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

16 minutes ago, Endy said:

What he has been saying the whole time is that you can't use Archie as justification for what they can get away with because it was specifically a special case of Archie and Sega ignoring eachother and not following normal licensing protocol.

 

9 minutes ago, The KKM said:

I'm going to straight up ignore all you say about Archie because again, my point re: Archie is it had a special set of circumstances. It got to keep using SatAM until 2017 or so, after all. We know the circumstances of its licensing were straight up just not normal, as made clear by how different stuff has been in IDW, which hasn't been entirely just because "changed on a dime".

Unless I'm missing something where Ian confirmed that was the case - no it wasn't.

It was like that for most of Archie's original run with Sonic, when Penders, Bollers and the like had free reign on how things would play out and SEGA didn't really give a crap about the series.

After 2013, where Ken Penders was able to drag their asses into court, and got SEGA stuck into a lawsuit about plagiarism, along with Archie losing to Penders via their own incompetence, a reboot was not only forced onto Archie Sonic, but from everything we've heard, SEGA also heavily tightened their leash on Archie, and slapped the series with a pile of mandates onto what was and was not allowed in order to ensure that this legal situation doesn't happen again, and we know this was the case because Ian has said - multiple times - that SEGA were originally planning to completely cut out the Freedom Fighters and all AoStH/SatAM characters, and Ian had to fight tooth and nail to convince them to let him continue usage, and he only got away with that because he had the evidence to make a credible argument that such a massive shift would frustrate readers. 

And even with how totally lax SEGA were in the early days, stuff still had to be approved. Penders has said as such - claiming that many of the ideas that he used with Knuckles were actually ideas planned for Sonic, until SEGA denied them. He then had to go through the reapproval process again with Knuckles. SEGA also stepped in to stop Penders from axing Sally off in Endgame, and for Eggman Empire in 175, Ian when going through the approval process had to swear that Eggman would only get to win for one issue and Sonic would win the war overall two issues later.

SEGA have always been approving what happened, what's different is they were far more relaxed and frankly - not giving a crap about what Archie did in the early days, as long as it wasn't going to harm brand recognition. When Penders was allowed to haul them into court for a lawsuit over Archie, SEGA was given a hard and harsh wake-up call to what their way of handling things had allowed creators to do, and how incompetent Archie was, and they put their foot down with the reboot.

The only special circumstance here was SEGA's own ineptitude, and that quickly and harshly changed when the lawsuits happened and the reboot followed. In order to run along with this idea that 'ignore archie, special exception' is literally ignoring everything Ian himself has said about the situation and the alterations that had to occur following the legal battles, and SEGA saying enough was enough. 

The only differences with IDW was Ian had less fire power for fighting some of SEGA's mandates, that's literally it. And Ian himself is the one who claimed mandates don't exist because that implies that SEGA have a clear set of rules, which isn't the case - things that are fine and aren't fine change every week, and he's said as such in Bumblecast, and frankly - you can go look at Shadow's characterisation between Issue 6 and Issue 19 of IDW to see how quickly SEGA's mandates and rules on how characters and elements are portrayed shift.

[Mauro Fonseca]

Ok, if it helps you wrap your head around it, think of it like this then- Archie had to deal with Sega of America, IDW has direct feedback from Sonic Team. Archie got to sort of hide under half-forgotten holes of corporate power where no one really cared much to deal with this comic thing in the US (hence things getting to the point of the infamous crying cover, and even afterwards things like SatAM material remaining up until the end). IDW gets direct feedback from Sonic Team on how the setting exists. For Sonic Team, these characters have never really existed in Sonic. Not in a literal continuity "Mighty does not exist" sense, just "we don't want to use the characters from these games". So now that IDW, much like any other licensee nowadays, works from them directly, IDW goes with those rules.

 

Compare to how Miyamoto Mario games rarely refer to Wario and never really use him- because Wario is the creation of another team, and so Miyamoto just doesn't want to use him. Same with Daisy, or Waluigi. Different teams working in the same franchise, main team getting a say on what it wants to use, choosing to ignore what the other teams did. That's been Sonic ever since 2003 to the point fan sites used to list those characters as "forgotten characters". Only in Archie was the situation ever different, and like I keep saying, Archie is very much the exception that shouldn't be used as an example for much of anything because of its own specific circumstances as a legacy product from the 90s from SoA in specific etc etc.

 

EDIT: And if it's not clear enough, I'm saying Archie clearly still got a preferencial "well, licensors shouldn't, but we'll let you do this" treatment even after reboot, which the use of the SatAM/AoSTH stuff shows; It's just the use of the classic characters was ALSO part of that treatment. A new comic, without all that baggage grandfathered in, with a new contract done under current rules that match the view of the franchise that's overall existed for 20 years? Doesn't get to do that, gets to do other stuff instead that Ian's also gone "huh, they approved it" at.

 

EDIT EDIT: To be more relevant to the thread though. The corporate decision's annoyed me at times. For years I wished the modern games could introduce back old non-Sonic Team content from the 90s. As it is right now, well they are, even if in an awkward way; and the division in licensed material forces the use of some underappreciated stuff in the Modern era and makes it more manageable (if classic were available, would we have much of G-Merl or Tangle or anything in the comic? Would we have Egg Vipers in the latest arc instead of just Death Egg Robos? etc). So yeah sure carry on. Still wouldn't say no to having modern versions of these concepts appear in the future. Not in the comics, in games.

[Wraith]

Fang, Bark, Bean, Mighty etc. coming back as accessories for classic merch or for one off spinoff comics is a complete downgrade from how much I was seeing them before just by reading Archie. I'll be honest and say I don't care for Mighty or Ray at all outside of that context. They had an allure to them by virtue of being scrapped characters but it's not like there was material out there that endeared them to me.

I like Fang Bark and Bean because I was a big Sonic the Fighters nut as a kid, but again I was endeared to them even more when they appeared every once in a while as the hooligans.

Now? They are all accessories to Classic branded merch or special Classic anniversary comics. It was cool that they were all(kind of) in Sonic Mania, but it's looking like that's going to be the only game of it's kind for the time being. If the rumors that are popping up on the net this week are any indication, they don't intend to stick with Classic Sonic long term anyway.

The point I'm trying to get at here is that I'm seeing less of them than I was before when they were Archie regulars, and what I am getting isn't as interesting. It's a downgrade. You can get into the weeds of the legality of it all if you want to, but from the consumer's end a lot of people are considering this whole set up a downgrade and it's not hard to see why. Getting into the technicalities of it or trying to ignore the comic that is the only reason we're having this discussion is just obscuring the problem people are having.

[Mauro Fonseca]

The point is, this discussion isn't new. Search back, you'll find threads about "why is Bean not in new games" for decades. Understanding that helps understand that it's not some bizarre new rule, it's just "the new comic has to actually play by the existing rules".

What you're asking for isn't actually "why does this divise exist", since it has since 2003. You're asking "why doesn't the IDW Comic specifically get to have its own standard like Archie had", just worded differently. At which point, well, the answer's the same as always.

[PublicEnemy1]

I'm just so tired of SEGA being so strict. They should be able to trust Ian with these characters or literally anything else, by now.

[Iko]

Except it IS a bizare new rule.

If the rule did really exist back when Heroes was developed, the Chaotix would have been scrapped and never joined the "modern" universe.

They considered, planned to, bring back even more "forgotten" characters but at the end they scrapped the idea. It's not because there was a mandate or something... likely there were just too many characters and those "forgotten" ones weren't developed nor recognizable enough, so they simply decided to not put them in. Again, the Chaotix were in the exact same situation as Ray, Fang, Bean and Bark, they just were more "lucky"(?). I'm pretty sure that if for some reason the Chaotix missed the Heroes chance, they would have joined the "Forgotten" party, along with the fact that if Heroes' teams were of four characters instead of just three, I'm sure as heck that Mighty would have been with them and a modern character now.

[Mauro Fonseca]

The Chaotix were the last old characters to be brought in, and are all related directly to Sonic Team in some way except Espio, who we can only speculate is (Vector and Charmy were designed by Sega, Espio has been speculated to have been designed by Ohshima). Even then they got so drastically reworked (as opposed to every other character) that they actively retcon the existing Chaotix into non-existence.

 

Since then, no other character returned.

 

THAT's the "rule". They don't want to use any of those old characters they had no hand in. That's how things've been since 2003.

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, Iko said:

If the rule did really exist back when Heroes was developed, the Chaotix would have been scrapped and never joined the "modern" universe.

The only significant difference between then and now is that there is actually "classic dimension" content for the characters to exist in. What we call "off limits" now was just "dead and forgotten" a couple years back. That they dug a couple characters out of their graves for Heroes doesn't mean they were never buried in the first place.

[Iko]

4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

The only significant difference between then and now is that there is actually "classic dimension" content for the characters to exist in. What we call "off limits" now was just "dead and forgotten" a couple years back. That they dug a couple characters out of their graves for Heroes doesn't mean they were never buried in the first place.

Isn't this exactly my point?

@The KKM said that the split between classic characters and modern characters always existed, while what I'm trying to say is that it didn't exist until Mania/Forces. Yeah those characters were dead and forgotten, but not because classic, just because other reasons.

1 hour ago, The KKM said:

The Classic-Modern distinction isn't new. It's always existed.

What you said trying to go against my statement is in fact exactly my statement.

[Diogenes]

They were dead because they were relatively minor characters from the pre-Adventure period of the series that they didn't care enough about to bring over. It hardly amounts to more than relabeling "characters we are not using" to "characters only used in the classic dimension".

[GentlemanX]

But I think that's why it's arbitrary to many? Because "characters we aren't using" is the same as "characters we could use, but don't". Heroes is the obvious sticking point here for various reasons: the Chaotix could come back even though they were classic characters, we know more characters were planned to come back, and there's no actual reason why Sega couldn't have brought them back at some point afterwards, there's no reason they can't come back now, other than Sega simply don't want them to. Which, I think it a stance one can criticize? Even if it's an explanation, Sega hasn't wanted to use the old characters since 2003, one can still dislike that they've arbitrarily decided that since 2003.

Archie is only relevant here because it's a physical example that things don't have to be the way they are. Why Archie was allowed to include what they did is unimportant, again it's only an explanation of the why. The point is that it showed that all this stuff could be used and made to work together if permission was given to do so. And if Sonic Team wanted to, they could give that permission, on all sorts of things beyond just these characters. And it's perfectly valid to complain that Sonic Team doesn't give permission if you disagree with the decision they've come to.

Just like how Classic Sonic being a aesthetic choice, Sonic's physical appearance in the past, or an alternate universe version are all decisions that can be scrutinized to various levels based on each person's own disposition toward the idea. Sonic Team doesn't want Classic characters cross pollinating into Modern stories. That's the fact. When this was established as their perspective on it I really don't care, and mostly I don't care why either. I do care about the decision in general though, and disagree with it, and I don't mind voicing that opinion either. Can we do anything about it? Not sure, that all depends on if Sonic Team care what we think, which is always up in the air.

[Iko]

50 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

They were dead because they were relatively minor characters from the pre-Adventure period of the series that they didn't care enough about to bring over. It hardly amounts to more than relabeling "characters we are not using" to "characters only used in the classic dimension".

It took me a while but I finally understood what you are meaning. So, to you, neglected characters and characters constrained to one branch of the series are the same thing... this is a big stretch and doesn't make much sense at all...

So by this logic, Mephilies, Elise, Gemerl (game-wise) etc can potentially show up in the classic universe because they're also neglected characters?

I think you're mixing two different concepts that only fit together due to a mere coincidence.

EDIT: Before, the "forgotten characters" were in a similar situation as the Babylon Rogues now: they are part of the same universe as Sonic and can appear at any time without any mandate stopping them to; they just aren't used in regular games because it doesn't make much sense to, because they are only relevant in the specific context of the riders series. But they can still appear, they sometimes do in spin-offs and such, and they definitely do in comics.

The "once forgotten characters" now are in a similar situation as Sticks, who can only appear in the Boom series and does not exist at all in the main universe; not just that, it also works the other way, character outside the spin-off series do not exist in the spin-off series.

Even if they lead to the same result, there's still a big difference between the two scenarios.

[Diogenes]

13 minutes ago, GentlemanX said:

things don't have to be the way they are.

Well yes obviously, Sega could go and reverse all their decisions tomorrow if they want. They won't, though. They're bound to change some of them eventually, but considering they've had 20+ years to reintroduce these characters to modern Sonic and they haven't, I wouldn't hold your breath on them. The point is that nothing much has really changed, they're not part of modern Sonic either way and likely never will be.

10 minutes ago, Iko said:

It took me a while but I finally understood what you are meaning. So, to you, neglected characters and characters constrained to one branch of the series are the same thing... this is a big stretch and doesn't make much sense at all...

So by this logic, Mephilies, Elise, Gemerl (game-wise) etc can potentially show up in the classic universe because they're also neglected characters?

I think you're mixing two different concepts that only fit together due to a mere coincidence.

The characters relevant to this discussion, the ones created in the classic era and left behind in the modern/Adventure/3D era that have reappeared in "classic dimension" content, were dead and are now classic only. Other dead characters are dead for different reasons.

[Kuzu]

Look, we can go into the how or why about it, but it's ultimately irrelevant to the subject of this topic; Classic characters are barred from  being used in anything outside of Classic content. At least before, Archie got to keep these characters relevant in that specific universe even if the games weren't doing anything with them.

Except now, even that's off the table. So all of the "classic" characters are restricted to Mania exclusive content, and given that Mania is going almost half a decade old, with no word if there's ever going to be a follow up and Sega seemingly going forward with Modern. Now the fate of those characters is left up in the air. 

The anniversary comic is cute and all, but it's not like its going to become an ongoing series, so this is pretty much all we're going to see from these characters until Sega decide to follow up Mania. 

That's the problem people got; Mighty, Ray, Fang, Bean, Bark (and I guess Honey too) at least were able to continue to exist in the ongoing comic, but now they don't even have that and are only restricted to a sub-series that may or may not even be continuing. 

[jungle_penguins]

So is this like a Two Worlds thing where it was a thing for a long time, and only in recent years were fans officially informed of it? Hilarious.

Anyway, there's not much benefit for this, other than Sonic Team being strict for brand synergy, which is an important thing I guess.

[Razule]

It might seem bad, but at least they're in a better spot than they were before Mania. If the classic brand didn't exist, they'd just be gone when Archie was cancelled. Maybe they'll be in more comics, a new game will be announced, or Mania was a one-time thing and classic material will just peter out over time.

This is something they've been dead set on for 20 years now, so it seems pretty pointless even hoping it'll change. It is what it is, arbitrary as it may be. A lot could happen in another 20 years though. 

On 6/25/2021 at 8:33 PM, Blue Blood said:

The nonsense about this series' timelines retroactively incorporating the redesigns and artstyles bugs me to no end. I'd often thought about a Classic game starring modern characters in addition to the classic bunch, because why the hell not? I'd quite like to see an official Classic Shadow, for example.

But Modern Sonic has had 2D games, so what would really separate them if Modern-exclusive characters could crossover into the Classic-style? Literally just their designs? Just make them alternate skins in a "modern" 2D game at that point. 

[Natie]

it sucks ass, but SEGA shakes up the Sonic franchise so often I'm just betting on them changing it back in like a few years.

[Razule]

 

13 minutes ago, Natie said:

it sucks ass, but SEGA shakes up the Sonic franchise so often I'm just betting on them changing it back in like a few years.

Changing back would mean the classic brand ceasing to exist outside of merchandise and all its exclusive characters returning to the void. Them wanting to use them in the main brand would be new. They shake things up often, but this is something that's been the same for a long time. From the perspective of the games, this is an upgrade. The comics, not so much.

[Natie]

2 minutes ago, Razule said:

 

Changing back would mean the classic brand ceasing to exist outside of merchandise and all its exclusive characters returning to the void. Them wanting to use them in the main brand would be new. They shake things up often, but this is something that's been the same for a long time.

no real reason why that has to be, they can still make classic stuff without totally divorcing the era from the main timeline. They're simply two different art styles that both have their fans, and everyone assumed it to be "The Past" until we were told otherwise.

[Pengi]

As The KKM said, the divide between the Classic Series and the Modern Series has always existed. In licensed products for example, it's forbidden to mix and match the classic and modern characters, logos etc. It's why Jakks Pacific has two different packaging styles for their toys.

Here's an interview from Summer of Sonic 2011 (go to the 15 minute mark).

 

Iizuka immediately says that characters like Fang, Ray and Bark are "from before Sonic Adventure", "we don't really use these characters anymore" and that the posters in Sonic Generations were only there because it was the 20th anniversary, they were celebrating the entire history of the series and wanted to put a smile on people's faces.

 

8 hours ago, The KKM said:

The Chaotix were the last old characters to be brought in, and are all related directly to Sonic Team in some way except Espio, who we can only speculate is (Vector and Charmy were designed by Sega, Espio has been speculated to have been designed by Ohshima). Even then they got so drastically reworked (as opposed to every other character) that they actively retcon the existing Chaotix into non-existence.

In The Untold History of Japanese Game Developers: Volume 3, Naoto Ohshima confirmed that he designed Vector and Charmy and Takumi Miyake designed Espio. Takumi Miyake worked on Sonic CD and later joined Sonic Team proper with NiGHTS into Dreams...

 

[GentlemanX]

Thinking Sonic Team is going to use the characters they've relegated to Classic Sonic in Modern Sonic material is unlikely, no matter what we think, but your best bet at seeing more of them anywhere is to support what we do get. Buy the classic comic, buy the Mighty and Mecha Sonic toys they just released, buy any and all merch you see on the Sega shop. If merch sells they'll make more merch, and eventually in order to create more and more merch to meet demand you need to produce more advertising to maximize profits of said merch. And limited appearances in stuff like blue moon games like Mania won't cut it to keep a moneymaker relevant. Maybe that results in simply more Classic content rather than a change in policy, but at least that's still something.

At least Mighty has merch to buy. What am I supposed to buy to convince Sega to use Sally?