The Continuity Debate

[The Conductor]

Actually Forzen, acording to Sega (or just the blokes at Tropervile) the canon path for Shadow is the pure hero one, so that would mean that the city wasn't destroyed.

Alternativley; they rebuilt the city.

[JezMM]

Shadow's canonicity is tricky. You have to really observe carefully to work out what is canon and what isn't.

For example, everything in the hero story is canon... however so are the following points from other storylines:

Shadow's encounter with the GUN Commander on the ARK.

Eggman lying to Shadow about being an android.

The President being taken to safety at the GUN Fortress.

As all of those are also brought up in the Last Story.

Essentially, the main story mode of Shadow is a case of "You decide what happens to Shadow!" but in the grand scheme of things, the real story criss-crosses all over the place in ways the structure of the game doesn't allow you to when choosing Shadow's fate.

Edited October 19, 2009 by JezMM

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Actually Frozen, acording to Sega (or just the blokes at Tropervile) the canon path for Shadow is the pure hero one, so that would mean that the city wasn't destroyed.

Given the aforementioned probably-not-blowing-up-of-Central-City, that is undoubtedly what you're supposed to think. My problem is that, in the same way I like to think of all of the games as canon despite their... inconsistencies, I want to be able to think of as much of Shadow as possible to be canon too. I played all the levels, so I want to be able to cite all the levels when thinking of where Shadow's been before!

Of course, this attitude presents certain problems. But I sort of like schizophrenic confusion it demands, tying into the idea of Shadow really not knowing who he is or what he should be doing; changing his mind and allegience multiple times over the course of the Black Arms invasion, as his collecting the Chaos Emeralds lets more and more fragments of memory re-form inside his mind.

And the prospect of Shadow (at least temporarily) deciding to become the Knuckles of the ARK is just too good to consign to the dustbin of history.

[Phos]

Shadow's canonicity is tricky. You have to really observe carefully to work out what is canon and what isn't.

For example, everything in the hero story is canon... however so are the following points from other storylines:

Shadow's encounter with the GUN Commander on the ARK.

Eggman lying to Shadow about being an android.

The President being taken to safety at the GUN Fortress.

As all of those are also brought up in the Last Story.

Essentially, the main story mode of Shadow is a case of "You decide what happens to Shadow!" but in the grand scheme of things, the real story criss-crosses all over the place in ways the structure of the game doesn't allow you to when choosing Shadow's fate.

So basically, Shadow the Hedgehog isn't even canonical with itself.

:\

Edited October 19, 2009 by Phos

[batson]

1. The allusion to Sonic CD

In Sonic Adventure, Amy has a flashback to being kidnapped by Metal Sonic, and of Sonic giving chase to rescue her. This clearly seems like a flashback to the events of pre-SA game Sonic CD. I acknowledge that Sonic and Amy retained their SA models, but I attribute this more to laziness on the part of the designers than I do a true story contradiction.

2. Sonic Pocket Adventure

Sonic Pocket Adventure uses both designs for Eggman. Throughout the game, Dr. Eggman wears his classic costume, switching to his modern jacket near the very end. Despite being released after Sonic Adventure, it's a plausible assumption that this game takes place prior to SA in the timeline, with Eggman's definitive costume switch occuring in-game, leading to future appearances which would use this jacket.

3. Sonic Advance - X Zone

Dr. Eggman reuses two of his old machines, the Egg Hammer Ball and the Eggman Drill! Clearly intended to be a nostalgic reference to his older plans, this reference would hardly make sense if it were, in fact, a "different" Eggman altogether.

4. Sonic Adventure - Classic Cameos!

Classic Eggman in Hedgehog Hammer. Classic cast in Sonic Pinball in Casinopolis. This one's simple.

You forgot Tails flashback to when he first met Sonic, which plays exactly the way it was described in the Japanese Sonic the Hedgehog 2 manual. And what's extra interesting about this connection to the old games-verse is that it isn't actually a reference to anything that happened in a game, but rather to something that was mentioned in a manual. Thus, this proves that not only are the stuff we saw in the classic-era games still canon, but so are the information found only in the classic-era Japanese manuals (that could probably otherwise be considered apocryphal).

Edited October 19, 2009 by batson

[JezMM]

So basically, Shadow the Hedgehog isn't even canonical with itself.

:\

I see it more as the presentation of the story is limited by a feature of the gameplay (in this case, the fact that the player can choose the directions).

It's comparable to the fact that Omochao flies around telling the characters the controls in Sonic Adventure 2, but we can hardly say that is canon. There comes a point where you have to turn your head to oddities because at the end of the day it is a game that the story is being presented through.

[MrPoT4tO]

... in the same way I like to think of all of the games as canon despite their... inconsistencies...

I get your point, but some games aren't canon at all, even if you try really hard to see where they go in the storyline. Let's think about it, where would you put Spinball, or Fighters, or the Drift games ... even Sonic R. Or for a more "recent" game, Pinball party and the upcoming All-stars Racing?

But yes, Shadow's game it's suppose to be cannon, despite that the game itself has way too many paths and it's hard to see which one is the one that is connected to the last story.

Oh, and another games that should be named as cannon are the storybook series. I think I've heard somewhere that in Black Knight Sonic makes references from time to time to some old battle he has had (like with ERAZOR DJINN!!!), but don't quote me on that.

[The Conductor]

I believe he did make a mention of the biolizard...

[MrPoT4tO]

Yeah, I heard that too.

Man, that game has a lot of fanservice.

[Blue Blood]

I get your point, but some games aren't canon at all, even if you try really hard to see where they go in the storyline. Let's think about it, where would you put Spinball, or Fighters, or the Drift games ... even Sonic R. Or for a more "recent" game, Pinball party and the upcoming All-stars Racing?

But yes, Shadow's game it's suppose to be cannon, despite that the game itself has way too many paths and it's hard to see which one is the one that is connected to the last story.

Oh, and another games that should be named as cannon are the storybook series. I think I've heard somewhere that in Black Knight Sonic makes references from time to time to some old battle he has had (like with ERAZOR DJINN!!!), but don't quote me on that.

That doesn't make them non-canon. Sonic R for example doesn't really fit anywhere, but the plot points it poses don't contradict anything else that's been established. Whether the game exists or not doesn't matter because nothing actually changes.

What about Chaotix, guys? The team was remade for Heroes- they were written in a new characters.

Edited October 19, 2009 by Blue Blood

[MrPoT4tO]

Well, that's another way too see it.

And Chaotix ... that's kinda hard since Knuckles is with them at first. Maybe before 3&K?

[Blue Blood]

Knuckles didn't meet Eggman until Sonic 3. The Chaotix storyline simply doesn't work anymore.

[Tornado]

Knuckles didn't meet Eggman until Sonic 3. The Chaotix storyline simply doesn't work anymore.

And Chaotix originally took place after Sonic and Knuckles anyways.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

I get your point, but some games aren't canon at all, even if you try really hard to see where they go in the storyline. Let's think about it, where would you put Spinball, or Fighters, or the Drift games ... even Sonic R. Or for a more "recent" game, Pinball party and the upcoming All-stars Racing?

I havn't played Pinball Party or All-Stars Racing (even though I was there when they demo'd it in SOS '09 ), but my impression is that both of them are explicitly crossover games in the style of Mario & Sonic At The Various Olympics, and no-one thinks they're canon (...do they?).

As for Fighters / Drift / R; they cause no continuity problems, and unlike Nepenthe I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. Just slot them in between whichever games you want and there. Done.

Spinball has a SatAM flavour, but accepting that the game's adventure happened does not render you beholden to accept the entire Archieverse. At most it says that Sally Acorn, Antoinne, and Rotor exist and were at one point captured in the Veg-O-Fortress. Even that's dubious given the wacky bonus-stage environs in which they were "rescued".

[Blazey Firekitty]

I personally feel that the existence of tons of Chaos Emeralds and a giant Robotnik in Spinball were stranger than the appearance of the SatAM/Archie characters.;;

[Dr. Mechano]

I havn't played Pinball Party or All-Stars Racing (even though I was there when they demo'd it in SOS '09 ), but my impression is that both of them are explicitly crossover games in the style of Mario & Sonic At The Various Olympics, and no-one thinks they're canon (...do they?).

I wouldn't call these games "noncanon" so much as... "extracanonical."

That is to say, while they probably don't fit in with the "main" game storyline, they're canon unto themselves.

The story that Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games, I think, should be seen as its own separate canon, rather than simply and bluntly "noncanon" to anything. Think of it in the same vein of the cartoons- It's still "true" in and of itself, but doesn't apply to the original series, because the game failed to provide a proper explanation for the crossover in the first place.

In Mario and Sonic, we're simply supposed to accept that Mario and Sonic are, apparently, from the same world and that the decidedly neutral-stylized locales do not explicitly represent either character's "universe." To that end, the plot appears to be set on Earth, due to the explicit mention of real-life locations like China and Canada.

Mario and Sonic should be seen the same way the Smash Bros. games are seen- They have a story, they're canon unto themselves, but they're not canon to the respective series from which the crossovers came (Unless they retcon in an explanation for how Mario and Sonic met on real-life Earth to compete in the Olympics, which would indeed make this the case). Effectively, it's an alternate universe in the same vein as the comics/cartoons/etc.

[Icecoldfrieza]

You forgot Tails flashback to when he first met Sonic, which plays exactly the way it was described in the Japanese Sonic the Hedgehog 2 manual. And what's extra interesting about this connection to the old games-verse is that it isn't actually a reference to anything that happened in a game, but rather to something that was mentioned in a manual. Thus, this proves that not only are the stuff we saw in the classic-era games still canon, but so are the information found only in the classic-era Japanese manuals (that could probably otherwise be considered apocryphal).

I always thought that scene in SA was based off of the ending of Sonic 2 for the Game Gear, in which Sonic is running along a grassy field and Tails is following him. It may not have been intentional, but a connection could be made.

Edited October 19, 2009 by Icecoldfrieza

[HunterTSF]

In Mario and Sonic, we're simply supposed to accept that Mario and Sonic are, apparently, from the same world and that the decidedly neutral-stylized locales do not explicitly represent either character's "universe." To that end, the plot appears to be set on Earth, due to the explicit mention of real-life locations like China and Canada.

In reality, that theory has been debunked as of Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games - although not explicitly stated so, both parties had mentioned of returning to their respective home worlds during the final ending. Adventure Tours also doesn't actually directly state that it takes place in Canada, rather it takes place on the fictional Winter and Dream Islands. Blaze and Silver are also directly stated as coming from different worlds and time periods respectively as well. However, seeing as the Wii editions of both games do take place specifically within Vancouver and Canada, this raises two theories (Seeing as that Festival Mode takes place after Adventure Tours):

Theory 1: They take place on an alternate Earth, where the islands are located.

Theory 2: The Islands were somehow transported from another dimension onto Earth.

The large quantities of spectators from both series can also be explained, seeing as characters from both series appear to be able to travel interdimensionally in order to observe the game. The plotholes that still remain may also be explained if a third Mario & Sonic comes around in two years (It makes money!!!!1!), so I'm not going to categorize this alongside Brawl just yet. (Which explicitly takes place within the World of Triophies, and does not feature the actual characters themselves.)

Oh, and while I'm posting here...

Reasons for why I consider Knuckles' Chaotix to be canonical.

I also find Sonic the Fighters to be canonical - this game introduces important recurring elements in the series such as Amy's Piko Piko Hammer, Tails' Workshop (as well as his emblem), and Espio's ninja techniques. We can just assume that the eighth Chaos Emerald may have been a fake, seeing as the dark purple emerald was in possession of Fang after all. From what I've heard, Sonic Chronicles gets the Chaos Emerald colors wrong anyways... not that I consider Chronicles to be canon, though.

EDIT: Pictures of Tails' Workshops for reference:

Edited October 20, 2009 by HunterTSF

[Dr. Mechano]

I also find Sonic the Fighters to be canonical - this game introduces important recurring elements in the series such as Amy's Piko Piko Hammer, Tails' Workshop (as well as his emblem), and Espio's ninja techniques. We can just assume that the eighth Chaos Emerald may have been a fake, seeing as the dark purple emerald was in possession of Fang after all. From what I've heard, Sonic Chronicles gets the Chaos Emerald colors wrong anyways...

Remember, one of the fighters gets duplicated by Eggman's duplication ray. The eighth Emerald is probably a duplicate in the same regard.

[Badnik Zero]

I'm still a little upset about what they did to the Chaotix in Heroes. Many people aren't bothered by it because Knuckles' Chaotix was a bit of a let down, and no one owned the 32X anyways. But I loved that game. I believe some elements of Chaotix were recycled in Heroes anyways. Besides the Chaotix reappearing the first time since their title game, Metal Sonic is also the primary nemesis. Aw man, that game had a lot of style. The colors! The huge red Metal Sonic (Metallix, I think people call it) was crazy, and it beats the hell out of Metal Overlord who looked too messy for a final boss. Anyways, yeah. I've stated my arguments for Chaotix being included in canon before, even if they're my total fanboy nonsense. I'm also convinced the only reason we don't see Mighty is because he didn't fit into Heroes' three-on-a-team design, and Espio won for the speed position. I would've chosen Espio too, but still.

[HunterTSF]

Remember, one of the fighters gets duplicated by Eggman's duplication ray. The eighth Emerald is probably a duplicate in the same regard.

Ah, yes! I had forgotten about that. Agreed, that is most probably the correct explanation for the existence of the eighth emerald.

-===-

And while I'm here, I might as well make mention of the plot behind Sega Superstars Tennis. Although it isn't mentioned of within either the game itself or the game manual that came packaged with it, the official websites does make indication of the plot's existence in Alex Kidd and Gilius Thunderheads' character bios. Oddly enough, they have the most detailed ones on the entire site.

Alex Kidd

[...]After spending many years in Shinobi World and finally managing to escape, Alex Kidd decided to take a rest from exploring. While relaxing, he sees a message detailing the SEGA Superstars Tennis tournament. Initially uninterested, Alex Kidd reads on and notices the prize of fame the reaches of the SEGA universe. Hearing that the current mascot Sonic the Hedgehog has signed up, the pint-sized hero decides to participate and truly earn his name as the face of SEGA.

Gilius Thunderhead

[...]Throughout the ages the stories of the Golden Axe adventures have become legend, passed along throughout the lands as a reminder of the power that can tempt a man to do evil. Gilius, hearing of the SEGA Superstars Tennis tournament, sees an opportunity to tell a whole new audience the stories of the Golden Axe, and winning the Grand Superstar prize would certainly aid in cementing the legend.

So, it certainly appears that at one point in time a Story Mode might have been implemented (And it sounds like this is the case for its sequel). Seeing as Amigo, NiGHTS, and a handful of other SEGA Superstars have appeared within Sonic's world beforehand, it doesn't really contradict any previous canon titles. [silver is there simply for his love of sports, and Blaze has learned from Knuckles that only losers guard their Emeralds on a daily basis.] It's certainly possible that this might be an applicable canon game. Sonic Team had more involvement with it than some other disputed canon titles developed by third parties (See: Chronicles) , anyways.

Edited October 20, 2009 by HunterTSF

[Diogenes]

Reasons for why I consider Knuckles' Chaotix to be canonical.

That's some pretty shaky logic.

1. Of course the rebooted Chaotix are like the guys from Knuckles Chaotix; there wouldn't be any reason to bring them back if the new versions weren't going to be anything like the old ones. And being called "Team Chaotix" is just the writers referencing that Knuckles Chaotix exists, not that it's canon. Hell, is there even any in-universe use of the word "Chaotix" in KC?

2. There's no reason there needs to be a game that shows them meet up. We didn't see Sonic and Eggman's first meeting (the manual says they've fought before Sonic 1) nor do we see how the Babylon Rogues got together.

3+4. Whether Charmy is mocking Eggman or not, remember, this is a guy who tried to take over the world several times, and who announced himself to the world just a game earlier. It wouldn't be the least bit surprising for the team to know of Eggman by reputation (nor would it be out of character for the goofy idiot of the group to not recognize him, if that is the case). Also, those posters? Easter Eggs. Next you'll tell me Big actually did follow the characters around in SA2...

5. It's still a tutorial, even if it isn't as blatant as "Press A to jump".

Remember, one of the fighters gets duplicated by Eggman's duplication ray. The eighth Emerald is probably a duplicate in the same regard.

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense. For one, this would mean Tails built a rocket that required more emeralds than there existed at the time. Second, none of the emeralds are grayscale (like the character duplicates) or the same color as another; if one is really a duplicate, it arbitrarily changed color. Third, the story says each character had an emerald before the fighting started, which is before the duplicator ray even comes into play.

It also looks a bit messy considering SA2 had a fake emerald and it was treated like a mildly shocking development...

[Badnik Zero]

Next you'll tell me Big actually did follow the characters around in SA2...

Wait, why not? Just because it's implausible doesn't mean it's not the case. Big is an implausible character.

[Miko]

Anytime you say "reboot" you may as well reffer to it as a separate verse because its not following established timeline that it's rebooting. It is not, on the same tangent. Many similarities, but not the same timeline.

[HunterTSF]

Wait, why not? Just because it's implausible doesn't mean it's not the case. Big is an implausible character.

Exactly! Why, if I recall correctly, Big also followed Sonic within the Arabian Nights storybook dimension and even wrote a journal chronicling the events that took place on his little journey. Big certainly is an oddball character to begin with, so it wouldn't surprise me if both of these sets of events are canonical.

In Sonic Adventure 2, Omochao even states:

Omochao: I wonder how Big is doing...

Quite a funny remark, really; Seeing as the majority of Big and Omochao's appearances are in fact cameos.

Edited October 20, 2009 by HunterTSF