Do you think the Sonic series is kind of sexist?

[Kuzu]

3 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Women in the movies are still good though.

For as much as people complained about the wedding subplot, I thought Rachel was hilarious. Natasha Rothwell knocked it out of the park and I hope she comes back and is even more over-the-top in movie 3.

I think the overall point is that Sonic fans are going to watch these movies for well...the Sonic characters. So just having Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Robotnik, and Shadow as the only major Sonic characters in this franchise is going to disappoint some people who wanted some female reps. 

 

One major hurdle for adding additional characters is the context these movies exist in ; in the games, the Sonic characters just exist and are integrated with human society like it's natural. Amy can just be a normal girl, and Rouge is just a government spy, because that's just how the world in the games works.  In the movies though, the Sonic characters (except Robotnik obviously) are explicitly aliens from another planet. The entire film series calls attention to how out of place they are on Earth. So Amy or Rouge can't just be characters who can just exist with no explanation, now they need context and backstory to justify their presence like Tails and Knuckles have. 

Except Amy and Rouge don't have context or backstory in the games, they literally just showed up with no fanfare involved. So the film would have to make up a new backstory and context for why they exist on Earth. 

[Dr. Mechano]

22 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Except Amy and Rouge don't have context or backstory in the games, they literally just showed up with no fanfare involved. So the film would have to make up a new backstory and context for why they exist on Earth. 

If they're doing an SA2 adaptation, I can see Rouge being worked in.

She comes through a ring portal and ends up working for the newly-formed GUN, which is how she gets involved in the plot. It wouldn't require a ton of setup, probably.

All six of SA2's playable characters should be here. It'd feel incomplete otherwise.

[Kuzu]

6 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

If they're doing an SA2 adaptation, I can see Rouge being worked in.

She comes through a ring portal and ends up working for the newly-formed GUN, which is how she gets involved in the plot. It wouldn't require a ton of setup, probably.

All six of SA2's playable characters should be here. It'd feel incomplete otherwise.

Rouge isn't really that integral to the plot of SA2, you only really need Sonic, Shadow, and Eggman for that. That said, having all of the characters involved would at least help the story feel a bit more fleshed out. 

I've toiled with the idea that Rouge should be introduced in the Knuckles series before the third movie. Because at least there, she doesn't have to compete with the other main characters for screentime and the series can just focus on her as a rival/secondary protagonist to Knuckles, and then she can play a supporting role in the third movie. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Funny idea: Watch them throw a curveball and introduce Blaze instead of Amy and Rouge for the Movie, combining SA2 with Rush.
 

Sounds unlikely, but so was the Movie, and the stinger in the Sequel—They skipped over Amy and Metal Sonic to go straight for Shadow, so I can’t help but entertain that if they wanted to bring an action girl into the fray, they could choose Blaze. As a bonus, Blaze would gain a shitload of new fans by having her first cinematic debut, and Sonic Team would be more likely to bring her into to more main series games.

And thanks to the Rings making portals to other worlds, the movies aren’t as restrictive as the games in terms of how characters can get involved. So it’s a lot easier to do here with minimal context than it would be anywhere else.

[Diogenes]

13 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

And thanks to the Rings making portals to other worlds, the movies aren’t as restrictive as the games in terms of how characters can get involved. 

I think having almost every single character come from a different world than the one the movies are actually set on makes things more restrictive, actually.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

I think having almost every single character come from a different world than the one the movies are actually set on makes things more restrictive, actually.

How?

[Diogenes]

10 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

How?

Because being on an entirely separate planet is a bigger barrier to knowing that something is happening and being able to get there? It's...basically the situation Blaze is already in, except for everyone.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

12 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Because being on an entirely separate planet is a bigger barrier to knowing that something is happening and being able to get there? It's...basically the situation Blaze is already in, except for everyone.

Then use Ring portals for everyone else too. Problem solved.

[Razule]

Amy and Rouge could already be on Earth. Like.. idk, Rouge is a super secret government agent who showed up looking for the Emeralds and got recruited, and Amy's parents sent her to Earth when she was young and she was adopted by some small town couple. Amy goes looking for Sonic because she found out there's another hedgehog like her on Earth, and Rouge really wants the Master Emerald, so they cross paths with the others.

[Diogenes]

The method of physically traveling from one place to another is not the main problem. Movie Sonic can't just run into a new friend the way game Sonic regularly does because they aren't supposed to be on the same planet as him. For almost every character you'd want to appear you'd have to come up with some reason, some scenario, where they jump into an interplanetary wormhole to this one particular backwater planet that doesn't even know these furry aliens exist. Compared to the games where Sonic can just go to a place and meet a new friend because that's where they live, or where a bunch of characters are in range of Eggman's schemes and are drawn to the same place in dealing with him.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

57 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

The method of physically traveling from one place to another is not the main problem.

That was literally the only point you singled out.

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

That was literally the only point you singled out.

29 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Because being on an entirely separate planet is a bigger barrier to knowing that something is happening and being able to get there? It's...basically the situation Blaze is already in, except for everyone.

Try again.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

On 5/1/2022 at 9:32 PM, Diogenes said:

Try again.

‘K.

That was you, answering “How,” after directly quoting me saying this:

On 5/1/2022 at 6:51 PM, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

And thanks to the Rings making portals to other worlds, the movies aren’t as restrictive as the games in terms of how characters can get involved.

Which, again, was the only point you singled out.

[Domino]

The thing is that the ring portals solve how a character could be on Earth, but not why.

The movies established that the animal characters don't typically visit Earth. Tails and Knuckles only showed up because they tracked Sonic there, and they're still seen as anomalies by the planet's populace.

The way I see it, the most natural way for them to introduce more animal people is if they just have Sonic drop by his homeworld again. Tails presumably still has ties to it, seeing as he lived there up until the events of the second movie. Now that they're friends, he and Sonic could just decide to hang out there if they wanted to.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

10 minutes ago, Domino said:

The thing is that the ring portals solve how a character could be on Earth, but not why.

We know that. The “why” is the fun part for the movie to show us, which is why we go to watch it for.
 

Just the fact that the Ring portals solve the logistics of how a character can get from one world to another makes it easier than what we’ve seen in the games where there’s more restrictive barriers that keep them apart. And that makes it all the more fun to theorize ideas that weren’t easily thought of before, like Blaze being in the third movie with Shadow—not likely to happen (then again, I thought the first movie beating out Detective Pikachu wasn’t likely…or Sonic 4 being made…or…you know what, forget it, you get the idea), but a guy can imagine at least.

…tho it does raise the question of why didn’t Sonic Team think of this before? But chances are that’s a dead horse we already know the answer to.

[Kuzu]

The biggest problem with Sonic's supporting cast is how many of them don't actually have any ties to Sonic himself. More often than not, the other characters have some type of goal or motivation that doesn't really involve Sonic whatsoever. Blaze in her debut didn't really want anything to do with Sonic until the latter kind of forced the issue, same with Shadow really, his story doesn't really involve Sonic whatsoever. 

Knuckles has a similar problem as if it weren't for Eggman tricking him, he'd have no reason to care about Sonic whatsoever, and once the initial misunderstanding is resolved, Knuckles doesn't really have much reason to get involved with Sonic anymore besides just being his friend. The movies however fixed that issue by giving Knuckles a goal and motivation that specifically ties him to Sonic and gives him a reason to follow him. Knuckles is no longer just some guy who Sonic occasionally hangs out with, but one of his primary family units in their united front to protect their new found family. I'd imagine they're gonna tie Shadow to Sonic in a similar vein, probably explaining their similar appearance and powers. That would go a long way of justifying Shadow's presence in Sonic's life, even after the third movie is over. 

So the biggest hurdle for adding any of the other characters is justifying their presence and why should Sonic care about them. The supporting characters in the games just show up with no rhyme or reason as pointed out, and because so many of them have little ties to Sonic, they often find themselves being tossed to the wayside. Not that every character NEEDS some type of connection to Sonic in order to be worthwhile, but it does go a long way in giving them characterizations and personalities that justify their presence. 

So a scenario where Amy, Rouge or Blaze end up on Earth would require an additional reason on why Sonic should give a shit about them. Amy is simple enough, she's in-love with him. Rouge doesn't really have any ties to Sonic at all, as she has bigger ties to Knuckles and Shadow. Blaze could work, including Shadow, we're already at four major characters; Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Shadow for a primary cast. If Amy is in the third movie, that makes five. You could probably get away with Six in Rouge, but at that point we start running into the character bloat problem the games have. 

Sooooo, I dunno. I'd like to see Blaze, but not if she's just gonna be tossed aside as usual after her initial story is over. I'd rather she just sit out altogether.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Are we really going to sell the movie series short on giving a reason as to why Amy, Rouge, or Blaze shows up?

They’ve been pretty good with providing context for characters appearing, so I don’t see why this is an area to worry about here as opposed to the games that will literally drop a character in scenes because “they’re expected” is somehow a valid reason for being present (and not doing jackshit worth being involved).

[Kuzu]

I'm mostly talking about potential pitfalls the series can run into. True, they've earned a lot of goodwill with the second movie, but history has shown that trilogies are hard to actually do. 

 

But if I had to choose a female character to use as a rep for this series, Blaze just feels like the most fitting role for that. More than any other female character in the series, she has an actual story to tell with her presence and brings with her an entire kingdom to explore. Amy I feel is too simple of a character in conception, and Rouge is a bit too sexualized. Blaze is a character who strikes that chord of being as cool as Knuckles or Shadow tend to be

[light-gaia]

On 4/30/2022 at 1:40 PM, Kuzu said:

I think the overall point is that Sonic fans are going to watch these movies for well...the Sonic characters. So just having Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Robotnik, and Shadow as the only major Sonic characters in this franchise is going to disappoint some people who wanted some female reps. 

 

One major hurdle for adding additional characters is the context these movies exist in ; in the games, the Sonic characters just exist and are integrated with human society like it's natural. Amy can just be a normal girl, and Rouge is just a government spy, because that's just how the world in the games works.  In the movies though, the Sonic characters (except Robotnik obviously) are explicitly aliens from another planet. The entire film series calls attention to how out of place they are on Earth. So Amy or Rouge can't just be characters who can just exist with no explanation, now they need context and backstory to justify their presence like Tails and Knuckles have. 

Except Amy and Rouge don't have context or backstory in the games, they literally just showed up with no fanfare involved. So the film would have to make up a new backstory and context for why they exist on Earth. 

Sonic X used a similar two-world concept, and they were able to adapt SA and SA2 stories without problems. Maybe the movies will have a similar approach.

[CertifiedNobody]

On 4/29/2022 at 8:42 PM, Multikaris said:

On this subject, isn’t it strange that the most prominent female representation in the live-action movies ATM are humans or realistic (even if she’s giant and can still at least talk) animals? Longclaw even lacks any merchandise. I wonder how 3 as well as the series plan to change this dynamic, as there’s still money on the table from it. 

It's mainly just a matter of the roles of the characters and how easy it is to introduce a character. the movies can't just throw in anyone they want, there has to be a logical place for them in the story, and there's little reason to introduce Amy in place of Knuckles or Tails. Personally, I'd rather have a well structured Sonic movie with no female characters than a Sonic movie that adds in several at the expense of plot and logic.

5 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I'm mostly talking about potential pitfalls the series can run into. True, they've earned a lot of goodwill with the second movie, but history has shown that trilogies are hard to actually do. 

Trilogies aren't inherently hard to do, studios just tend to make stupid decisions with their last entry for some reason.

5 hours ago, Kuzu said:

But if I had to choose a female character to use as a rep for this series, Blaze just feels like the most fitting role for that. More than any other female character in the series, she has an actual story to tell with her presence and brings with her an entire kingdom to explore. Amy I feel is too simple of a character in conception, and Rouge is a bit too sexualized. Blaze is a character who strikes that chord of being as cool as Knuckles or Shadow tend to be

I've been saying Blaze makes the most sense but a lot of people just dismiss me as being an Amy hater. I do think Rouge will happen, and she'll probably be introduced in the Knuckles show to give him a rival. Amy is the most iconic female character, but she's so hard to work into the movie universe compared to almost anyone else, and if she did get brought in, I can't see her being part of Team Sonic.

12 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Funny idea: Watch them throw a curveball and introduce Blaze instead of Amy and Rouge for the Movie, combining SA2 with Rush.

That sounds like a recipe for another Spider-Man 3.

[Wraith]

Sonic 1 and 2 are both so poorly structured that I'm surprised that's the argument being made. It's a lot easier to cram Amy or Rouge into an SA2 adaptation than it is to strap Tails onto the end of a story about Knuckles, Eggman and Tom's wedding. 

[Dr. Mechano]

Blaze isn't as out-there as some may think for the movie franchise.

Think about it: If Jim Carrey doesn't come back as Eggman, they could skirt around recasting him by introducing Eggman Nega, played by a different actor, along with Blaze.

[CertifiedNobody]

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

Sonic 1 and 2 are both so poorly structured that I'm surprised that's the argument being made. It's a lot easier to cram Amy or Rouge into an SA2 adaptation than it is to strap Tails onto the end of a story about Knuckles, Eggman and Tom's wedding. 

The movies are structured fine for the most part, but even if that was true, do you really think we should exacerbate the issue by introducing even more characters than Sonic 2 did?

[Kuzu]

2 hours ago, CertifiedNobody said:

 

Trilogies aren't inherently hard to do, studios just tend to make stupid decisions with their last entry for some reason.

I've been saying Blaze makes the most sense but a lot of people just dismiss me as being an Amy hater. I do think Rouge will happen, and she'll probably be introduced in the Knuckles show to give him a rival. Amy is the most iconic female character, but she's so hard to work into the movie universe compared to almost anyone else, and if she did get brought in, I can't see her being part of Team Sonic.

 

Do you think filmmakers just go out of their to make a terrible trilogy?

 

And I'm pretty sure the reason you get pushback about Amy is the language you use when talking about her. You might not realize it, but tend to talk down about her a lot.

I don't know if you have something against her or anything but I'm not really surprised people who like Amy tend to bite back when you talk smack about her.

[CertifiedNobody]

4 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Do you think filmmakers just go out of their to make a terrible trilogy?

Spider-Man 3 and X-Men 3 were bad because they had too many villains, not because a third movie is hard. The Rise Of Skywalker was bad because they had two directors fighting for control of the franchise, not because it was hard to conclude a series. The Dark Knight rises is the worst in the trilogy because it wasn't as carefully thought out, not because trilogies are inherently difficult to end.

9 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

And I'm pretty sure the reason you get pushback about Amy is the language you use when talking about her. You might not realize it, but tend to talk down about her a lot.

I don't know if you have something against her or anything but I'm not really surprised people who like Amy tend to bite back when you talk smack about her.

Probably because the only time I really talk about her is when I'm arguing about why it's difficult to add her to the movies. I never talk down about her actual character, and I bring up how she works in the games and comics, I point out the major issues that come with bringing her into a very different medium with different expectations and limits.