Reimagining unpopular Sonic concepts.

[Kuzu]

So here's what I hope becomes a fun topic for anyone who bothers to participate, and its based on a recent status update I read. 

So we all know about the stuff we like, and what we want to keep about Sonic; the stuff that defines this series for you and what you would prefer the series to focus on, probably forever. But what about the flipside? The stuff that we don't care for, and at worst, outright despise? It's simple to just say "well obviously we should get rid of or ignore the stuff I don't like", but that's the easy way out; and hey, something you may not care for may be something that someone else absolutely loves and vice versa, and while its easy to be dismissive of these people, after all why should you care about the opinions of people who don't agree with you, I do feel its important to understand perspectives that you don't necessarily agree with. Who knows, you might grow new appreciation for something you initially dismissed. 

So the idea behind this topic is take one aspect of Sonic, can be a gameplay mechanic, a character, a story arc, a level, etc etc. and reimagine it in a way that appeals more to you. The catch however? You cannot remove it, and you must keep the fundamental core parts that define it. To summarize, the part that you hate the most or don't care for, you're not allowed to severely alter it in a way that makes it unrecognizable from what it was before. It needs to still resemble it's base concept while being changed in a way that's more appealing to you. You need to be able to find a good balance of changing just enough to be different, but not enough to where it becomes something else entirely. 

 

I'll start with a good and popular one...Big's fishing levels in Sonic Adventure. Yea, I fucking hate these and I've always entertained idea that they needed to be removed in a potential remake. BUT, I've also recognized in recent years what Big brings to Adventure. He's meant to be a refresher and a break from all of the high octane action. Where they screwed up was making him a mandatory campaign with the least interesting storyline of all of the playable characters. So I feel like the best way to address that is, instead of making him a mandatory part of the game, just make him a part that a player can encounter in small spurts...kind of like what he would become in later games. If you manage to find Big in parts of the overworld, you get treated to the fishing minigame and a potential to earn extra rewards. You even get special little animations of the cast just fishing with Big for your trouble, and when you've had your fill, you can go back to business. 

This is way, you keep the part of the character the same; an unlikely guy in the most unlikely of scenarios, and his core concept of fishing, but in a way that is not obnoxious and puts the onus of control on the player. The player determines when they want to encounter Big or not. 

 

So that's my idea ,and I'm curious what others can come up with. 

[DabigRG]

Insert one hundred forty four reimaginings of Omochao, Elise, Marine, and the Deadly Six

(Jokes aside, I very much approve of this topic)

[Cosmos Rogue]

It's a bit late for this, but I think post-SA2 Shadow should have in fact been an android. Unlike the Shadow we know, ShadowBot would have had "his" memories mostly intact in Heroes and Shadow 2005. After discovering the truth that he is not the "real" Shadow, ShadowBot could have had a chip on his shoulder, and be always trying to prove that he is if not the real Shadow he is a real Shadow. At his worst, he'd pick fights with Sonic in a desperate attempt to prove that he truly is the Ultimate Lifeform. At his best he'd live up to the example set by the original Shadow and be there when humanity really needs him to be.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I’d take the Deadly Six and expand their background so that we know why the D6 was formed and became what it is, as well as that of Lost Hex.

The question is how, and that can go from many different ways: an mercenary organization that grew to embody their vices, remnants of an ancient civilization who are the sole keepers of the lost art of technomancy, or a group of demons banished to the floating world they now call home. Maybe even have them fight the echidna civilization in the past after Chaos had already devastated their numbers 4000 years ago, explaining further why Knuckles is the last of his kind and why they’re only six of them. Fuck, they could be Knuckles enemies out of tribal history of bad blood!!!

Really, it’s surprising the many ways they could’ve developed the Deadly Six beyond just punch clock villains who exist because...eh? They really didn’t need to be made as lame the way they were, and had they put the same effort they put into Chip in Unleashed, they might’ve been more well received.

[Diogenes]

7 minutes ago, Cosmos Rogue said:

It's a bit late for this, but I think post-SA2 Shadow should have in fact been an android.

Agreed. It would've been a way ballsier twist to have Shadow actually dead and an android take his place, instead of that whole plotline being a total red herring (at the very least it should've been a major focus of his game instead of garbage aliens). Or maybe even better, take advantage of his game being about multiple paths and endings and leave it ambiguous, have a goody two shoes "Shadow is alive and saves everyone like a true hero" ending and a more nuanced one where "Shadow" confronts being an android but decides the world needs a Shadow and he's the only one who can do it or something (also throw in an evil Shadow ending for balance, even if his next appearance would obviously confirm it to be non-canon). And then, just...don't bring it up again. Leave it to each individual fan to decide which one feels more true.

If not any of that, though, I've always felt the one ending where Shadow basically tells everyone to fuck off of the ARK, he's its guardian now, was the only ending that actually proposed a sensible path forward for him. No cackling evil, no generic heroism, no throwing out everything and going nowhere like the game's actual ending. It's angsty as hell and has some awkward conceptual overlap with Knuckles but it's at least in line with his existing character and gives some kind of grounding for who he's supposed to be going forward.

[Mr. Ion]

I would try to include everything that has appeared in the mainline games as one singular unit of lore, preferably in one timeline. I don't really like two worlds but instead of two literal worlds it could be something like anthros live on islands and humans mainly live on continents, or even that there are literally two worlds connected by a bridge, but this has been something recently discovered by some scientist (like Gerald Robotnik or something) and has been accepted by the world for some certain amount of time.

Another thing I don't like but would try to integrate is the Sonic Boom designs. Someone pointed out once that at least the Boom characters have variation in shape and design, which makes the characters more visually interesting, and I kind of agree with that. You could rework the story a bit to argue that Sonic & co. have been on the search for some treasure or something in the background after Lost World and that's why Boom is so disconnected, or you could say the abundance of sports tape was to handle the electric/energy feedback of the Enerbeams. 

I can't really think of anything else right now but if I do I'll post it here. Interesting topic Kuzu, I appreciate it. 

[Kuzu]

5 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Agreed. It would've been a way ballsier twist to have Shadow actually dead and an android take his place, instead of that whole plotline being a total red herring (at the very least it should've been a major focus of his game instead of garbage aliens). Or maybe even better, take advantage of his game being about multiple paths and endings and leave it ambiguous, have a goody two shoes "Shadow is alive and saves everyone like a true hero" ending and a more nuanced one where "Shadow" confronts being an android but decides the world needs a Shadow and he's the only one who can do it or something (also throw in an evil Shadow ending for balance, even if his next appearance would obviously confirm it to be non-canon). And then, just...don't bring it up again. Leave it to each individual fan to decide which one feels more true.

If not any of that, though, I've always felt the one ending where Shadow basically tells everyone to fuck off of the ARK, he's its guardian now, was the only ending that actually proposed a sensible path forward for him. No cackling evil, no generic heroism, no throwing out everything and going nowhere like the game's actual ending. It's angsty as hell and has some awkward conceptual overlap with Knuckles but it's at least in line with his existing character and gives some kind of grounding for who he's supposed to be going forward.

I actually like keeping the whole thing ambiguous since it would justify the whole multiple ending angle without invalidating all of it like what actually happened.  And it ties into Shadow's overall character; it doesn't matter if he's real or a fake, he is the one who defines his destiny and nobody else. 

[Soniman]

5 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

If not any of that, though, I've always felt the one ending where Shadow basically tells everyone to fuck off of the ARK, he's its guardian now, was the only ending that actually proposed a sensible path forward for him. No cackling evil, no generic heroism, no throwing out everything and going nowhere like the game's actual ending. It's angsty as hell and has some awkward conceptual overlap with Knuckles but it's at least in line with his existing character and gives some kind of grounding for who he's supposed to be going forward.

My problem with this outside the Knuckles overlap is that it ties Shadow to his past both literally and figiturivley, like...he's just stuck on a dead space station all alone. What is he even guarding? Knuckles' Master Emerald is at least very important and a powerful object. I just don't think either he or Maria would want that for him as opposed to living on the planet she loved so much doing good wherever and however he can 

[Wraith]

I wouldn't have been happy playing with a fake Shadow. I never liked that idea. It feels even more a cop out than just killing him off. Now a Shadow is always going to be here, which alienates people that hate him, but it's not the one people who like him grew attached to. 

Here's a better idea: the black and red hedgehog that shoots lasers and rides rocket skates, the obvious toy vehicle that was obviously going to haunt this franchise forever like a curse, should not have been on the chopping block. I didn't even think he was gone forever when I was six. Why bullshit? "Oh we're done with vegeta we're not doing that anymore." Yeah ok. 

You don't even have to change the story that much. Add a post credits scene that implies or outright states he survived the fall(though that's only the first of many changes I would make to SA2's narrative if I were allowed.)

[Kuzu]

3 minutes ago, Soniman said:

My problem with this outside the Knuckles overlap is that it ties Shadow to his past both literally and figiturivley, like...he's just stuck on a dead space station all alone. What is he even guarding? Knuckles' Master Emerald is at least very important and a powerful object. I just don't think either he or Maria would want that for him as opposed to living on the planet she loved so much doing good wherever and however he can 

I...don't think that's a bad thing actually. While its not exactly IDEAL, a scenario were Shadow holes himself up due to being unable to move on from his trauma also has potential. You can even have someone like Knuckles reach out to him given the similarity of their scenarios. 

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, Soniman said:

What is he even guarding? 

A space station with an orbital laser capable of destroying a planet and who knows what other crazy superscience.

And guarding the ARK doesn't mean he never interacts with anything else. Make it his base of operations, his fortress of solitude, his...did the Justice League's space station have a name? His that, whatever it was called. A place where he can watch over Earth. And it's not exactly the happiest of endings for him, yeah, but that's because an ending means you're done, and I doubt they had intentions of retiring him at that point. Like I said, it's a direction for him to go, not a stopping point.

[BadBehavior]

The sword from Black Knight: just tweak the animations so Sonic doesn't lose too much speed when swinging, and make the boss fights less of a crapshoot waggle-fest.

But to tweak a concepts that seems to be popular: the wisps. Everyone compares them to mario powerups and I'm like "No?" Mario doesn't lose the fire flower after blasting one fireball. He doesn't lose the Tanuki leaf after some arbitrary amount of time. So I thought what if wisps actually did function like Mario powerups? Actual, meaningful additions to Sonic's moveset and not something that Conker's Bad Fur Day parodied 20 years ago with Context Sensitive buttons? Assuming the framework is exactly like your standard Boost game.

Laser. Allows him to do a Lost World style chain homing attack.
Cube. If you have it, you can jump on cube platforms. If you don't, you don't. No slow stomp switching bullcrap.
Spike: Allows you to go up certain steep surfaces when boosting. (Or maybe allows you to stick to ceilings if Sonic Team thought we needed some nostalgia pandering for 06 ;P)
Burst: Can do infinite jumps so long as he has to speed to maintain them. Basically the Cape feather from SMW (or Ray from Mania + to the cultured among us). As a bonus, maybe the flames light up dark levels.
Hover: since Burst has taken what Hover can do, Hover just restores access to the light speed ring dash. And not for context sensitive trails either, for all trails like from Adventure-Unleashed.

That's all I can think of right now.

[Dr. Mechano]

15 minutes ago, Wraith said:

"Oh we're done with vegeta we're not doing that anymore." Yeah ok.

Funny you mention Vegeta - a character Shadow is often compared to. Because my re-imagination of Shadow's post-SA2 development would make him more like Vegeta.

After all, let's not forget that Vegeta didn't remain an angry power-obsessed warlord forever. His character arc ultimately culminated in him becoming a goofball dad - complete with singing about bingo to make his wife happy on her birthday.

Shadow, by contrast, has mostly maintained the same dour attitude as when he debuted. He's moved on from wanting to destroy the world, sure, but he still largely acts the same way. So I think Shadow loosening up over time and adapting to earth's culture would honestly be really endearing. Keep that competitive spirit he has, sure. But let him smile and have fun a little more.

I'm not saying dude needs to be a total clown or anything - at the end of the day he'll always be kind of a grumpy, stodgy, serious guy. And that's fine. But I think letting him develop into a normal dude with actual hobbies and interests outside of his heroic adventures would go a long way to humanize the guy.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

11 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

, his...did the Justice League's space station have a name?

It was called the Watchtower.

[Kuzu]

Its funny too because Vegeta similarly gets the same complaints about how static and unchanging he is, at least in Modern Dragon Ball. And it took until two recent arcs in the manga for them to actually try something new for him.

 

To go to something else...I'd go with the Deadly Six; to expand on @CrownSlayer’s Shadow's idea. Make them exiled parts of an entire Zeti race. Sonic and Co. eventually discover the Zeti homeworld, and learn that the Six were banished to the Lost Hex for being too unruly and violent. Zavok specifically used to be the Champion of the Zeti, but let his power go to his head and convinced the other five join him in his conquest. His vendetta against Sonic and Eggman is a result because he was completely unmatched on the Zeti homeworld, and experiencing his first real defeat drove him off the deep end and is determined prove his mettle as the Strongest Zeti. 

[Wraith]

21 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Funny you mention Vegeta - a character Shadow is often compared to. Because my re-imagination of Shadow's post-SA2 development would make him more like Vegeta.

After all, let's not forget that Vegeta didn't remain an angry power-obsessed warlord forever. His character arc ultimately culminated in him becoming a goofball dad - complete with singing about bingo to make his wife happy on her birthday.

Shadow, by contrast, has mostly maintained the same dour attitude he was when he debuted. He's moved on from wanting to destroy the world, sure, but he still largely acts the same way. So I think Shadow loosening up over time and adapting to earth's culture would honestly be really endearing. Keep that competitive spirit he has, sure. But let him smile and have fun a little more.

I'm not saying dude needs to be a total clown or anything - at the end of the day he'll always be kind of a grumpy, stodgy, serious guy. And that's fine. But I think letting him develop into a normal dude with actual hobbies and interests outside of his heroic adventures would go a long way to humanize the guy.

I think this post vastly oversells Vegeta's character development. He still trains all the time to beat Goku and still has to be dragged into spending time with Trunks. It's not like he got a 9-5. He only even really did the bingo thing because Beerus was going to blow the planet up if Beerus wasn't entertained. Not to make his wife happy. He drags his feet on doing the fusion dance in Broly it looks silly.

But aside from that I actually agree. In fact, Most Shadow fans agree that seeing him chill out was the only actual way to go forward. It's an open and shut thing for me. Maria wanted to see the planet, so he should go see the planet. Maybe she had a list of places she wanted to visit. Am I saying Shadow the Hedgehog should have actually been Sonic Unleashed? Maybe.

Other than that... "Give them a chance to be happy." Should be the focus of the character aside from his rivalry with Sonic. Shadow's backstory is bloated with details that I no longer think are  interesting in the slightest, but Maria sticks out to me: What was she like? What could someone like Shadow have done to endear her and keep her entertained? I saw her die from two different angles, but I don't really know much about her. The more you flesh her out, the more Shadow's character gets enriched in turn.

I no longer thinks he needs the other stuff, and as far as we're fielding retcons I'd suggest the nature of Maria's death change as well. State-sanction murder might be out of Sonic's wheelhouse, but I don't think illness is.

As far as other changes go, "Shadow is based off of Super Sonic" needs to be embraced, not just an implication. If Super Sonic in echidna culture is the great light, Shadow is..yknow. Either during SA2 or after it, have him grapple with the fact that he's meant to be an inferior version of someone who already exists ala Roxas. The name "Sonic Adventure 2" sounds a little less like a formality now, doesn't it?

The only thing is that there aren't a lot of reasons for him to continue fighting Sonic if you go this route, but I don't think that stuff is particularly interesting after the first time, so I'm fine with that. I don't think he has to like Sonic, but it could just be because he thinks Sonic's kind of annoying and doesn't take being a hero seriously enough. It doesn't always have to spring into a battle or a moral disagreement.

Tldr: Shadow should be simplified with the emotions his backstory was trying to bring out brought waaay to the forefront. The stupid twists were not interesting and should be kept to a minimum. Come back next week when I explain how to fix Infinite.
 

[User18091994]

I like the Shadow the Hedgehog game concepts. The game was inspired by Hollywood action movies such as Matrix, The Terminator and others. I think it's a very good idea. The dark tone and atmosphere fits Shadow well. The gun play and vehicles add variety to the gameplay, also some stages have a bit of exploration and puzzle elements. My favorites are Mad Matrix and Digital Circuit.

However, the game has horrendous flaws, the story doesn't make sense, the gameplay lacks polish, the level design of some stages are incredibly basic and boring. I would love to have a Shadow the Hedgehog sequel or spiritual successor, though. With better gameplay, more polished mechanics, better-written story, etc.

I like the concepts of Sonic Lost World, too. I enjoy the game just the way it is, however I think it had missed potential. Furthermore, I think the game would be amazing with the same control scheme with only a few tweaks, the same geometric gravity gimmicks, but with more traditional Sonic level design (focused on speed), more memorable and unique environments designs and, for the last but not least, more interesting cast of villains. The game could also be announced and released as a spin-off title instead of a mainline game, so maybe the audience would be more open-minded to the experience.

The last concept I want to talk about is Sonic storybook series. I really enjoy the settings, environment designs, art style and overall atmosphere of Sonic and the Secret Rings. I also enjoy the game despite the controversial control scheme, but it would be perfect if Secret Rings gets a remastered version with traditional controls, like Sega did with Super Monkey Ball Banana Blitz HD.

 

[charmsb]

Is Infinite an unpopular concept?

Look, his design is awesome. And you know what? I absolutely adore how edgy he is and how he carries himself. Its so stupid but enjoyable. Its kinda like why I enjoy Shadow (game).

I think my only real problem is that they didnt use his powers enough and gave him a shitty reason to have his life changing moment.

Here's how I would improve Sonic Forces and Infinite in general: Get Sonic the fuck out of there. He has no connection to anyone, especially not Infinite. You know who does? Shadow. Make the entire game an "Episode Shadow". Have Infinite absolutely fucking torture him with illusions. Shit like Maria getting shot, him tearing up Radical Highway, images of Black Doom, etc. Make him relive the worst moments of his life without any escape.

With Shadow as a complete character in terms of his character arc, a good way to utilize him is to test him. And being forced to relive these horrible moments is a good way to do that.

The whole game is Shadow vs this edgier guy, Infinite. He's just as laughably edgy and dark as he is in Forces, but now he fits more because of the Shadow focus. You hear from/potentially play as Team Dark throughout the game and you have to stop Infinite from... doing something, idfk. And Infinite's newfound powers just so happen to be PERFECT for use against Shadow. Does Sonic have any traumatic events to relive, really? Idk, getting turned into a Werehog I guess? He doesn't seem like the type to really care. That's why you gotta use Shadow instead.

[Diogenes]

27 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

To go to something else...I'd go with the Deadly Six; to expand on CrownSlayer’s Shadow's idea. Make them exiled parts of an entire Zeti race. Sonic and Co. eventually discover the Zeti homeworld, and learn that the Six were banished to the Lost Hex for being too unruly and violent. Zavok specifically used to be the Champion of the Zeti, but let his power go to his head and convinced the other five join him in his conquest. His vendetta against Sonic and Eggman is a result because he was completely unmatched on the Zeti homeworld, and experiencing his first real defeat drove him off the deep end and is determined prove his mettle as the Strongest Zeti. 

Eh, there being a (at least reasonably) peaceful society of Zeti doesn't really feel right to me. I don't see the Zeti as just some weird kind of animal, they're like, something more supernatural. Evil spirits.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

47 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

To go to something else...I'd go with the Deadly Six; to expand on @CrownSlayer’s Shadow's idea. Make them exiled parts of an entire Zeti race. Sonic and Co. eventually discover the Zeti homeworld, and learn that the Six were banished to the Lost Hex for being too unruly and violent. Zavok specifically used to be the Champion of the Zeti, but let his power go to his head and convinced the other five join him in his conquest. His vendetta against Sonic and Eggman is a result because he was completely unmatched on the Zeti homeworld, and experiencing his first real defeat drove him off the deep end and is determined prove his mettle as the Strongest Zeti. 

So basically you make Zavok the franchise’s Frieza.

See that would’ve been an awesome idea the first time for their debut. Master Zik as his mentor, the others his sub-lieutenants.

In fact, that single detail would actually give Lost Worlds so much more context that I think its perception would be a complete 180 compared to what we have now.

Let’s go with that one.

[Kuzu]

9 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Eh, there being a (at least reasonably) peaceful society of Zeti doesn't really feel right to me. I don't see the Zeti as just some weird kind of animal, they're like, something more supernatural. Evil spirits.

Well I dunno if its a dub only line, but Eggman does mention that there may be more of them. I'm pretty much taking that context and running with it. 

 

Not that I'm opposed to the idea of them being something supernatural ;  you got any ideas?

10 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

So basically you make Zavok the franchise’s Frieza.

See that would’ve been an awesome idea the first time for their debut. Master Zik as his mentor, the others his sub-lieutenants.

In fact, that single detail would actually give Lost Worlds so much more context that I think its perception would be a complete 180 compared to what we have now.

Let’s go with that one.

I wasn't trying to make a Dragon Ball parallel tbh; I had my thoughts more on Thanos specifically lol. 

But I didn't want to crip too much and make it obvious. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I wasn't trying to make a Dragon Ball parallel tbh; I had my thoughts more on Thanos specifically lol. 

But I didn't want to crip too much and make it obvious. 

It was just the closest parallel that came to me that I could summarize.

The next one I had after that was the Sith from Star Wars.

[Kuzu]

Yea, I'm not trying to turn Sonic into furry Dragon Ball lol. 

[Zaysho]

2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Yea, I'm trying to turn Sonic into furry Dragon Ball lol. 

Pretty sure Sonic Team beat you to it :V

(not that I'm complaining, mind)

[Kuzu]

6 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

Pretty sure Sonic Team beat you to it :V

(not that I'm complaining, mind)

I meant to say "I'm NOT trying to do that" lol sorry. 

 

I want Sonic to be Sonic, not Dragon Ball....even if there's already tons of overlap.