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Reimagining unpopular Sonic concepts.


Kuzu
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CrownSlayer’s Shadow

I’m not sure where this lies on the popularity spectrum, but one other idea I had in mind was Soleanna being a remnant of one of the Four Great Civilizations like the Echidnas. It would explain their worship of the sun, their science involving time travel to correct the world’s sins, and the Solaris god could have been an ancient super weapon created by the pre-Soleanna civilization.

I would have also tied this into Blaze’s dimension, being the same part of that civilization but in another dimension like the Lombaxes were to Ratchet in the Ratchet and Clank Future series. (and I still haven’t played Rifts Apart yet, so no spoilers plz.) 

Heirlooms like the Jeweled Scepter and maybe the Sol Emeralds were made to control Solaris among many other added features, hence why the Duke of Soleanna couldn’t fully control Solaris in his own dimension. And since they were so powerful, they chose a specific person to act as the guardian, which eventually turned into the royal family that Blaze is the current successor of.

This would require a re-write of much of Sonic 06, but that game could use it anyway.

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1 hour ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

I’m not sure where this lies on the popularity spectrum, but one other idea I had in mind was Soleanna being a remnant of one of the Four Great Civilizations like the Echidnas. It would explain their worship of the sun, their science involving time travel to correct the world’s sins, and the Solaris god could have been an ancient super weapon created by the pre-Soleanna civilization.

I would have also tied this into Blaze’s dimension, being the same part of that civilization but in another dimension like the Lombaxes were to Ratchet in the Ratchet and Clank Future series. (and I still haven’t played Rifts Apart yet, so no spoilers plz.) 

Heirlooms like the Jeweled Scepter and maybe the Sol Emeralds were made to control Solaris among many other added features, hence why the Duke of Soleanna couldn’t fully control Solaris in his own dimension. And since they were so powerful, they chose a specific person to act as the guardian, which eventually turned into the royal family that Blaze is the current successor of.

This would require a re-write of much of Sonic 06, but that game could use it anyway.

A connection between the Sol dimension and Solaris and Soleanna seems so obvious that it makes me mad its not real lol.

Hopefully we get some more info on the dimension itself later down the line instead of "Yep, it sure exists alright." In the IDW Metal Virus arc,

Spoiler

Sonic was transported to the Sol Dimension through some fuckery with the warp topaz and chaos control probably. Thing is, they were dumping the metal virus into the Sun... and Sonic happens to show in the Sol dimension for a spell. I wonder if this was intentional? I'd love to ask Flynn himself.

 

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Hey, this still open? I've got an idea that'd be great for this:

SanicWaerz.jpeg

Yes, yes, I know. Dread it, run from it, but destiny still arrives all the same this is still the last mainline game in the popular consciousness. And, believe it or not, it did become popular... sorta.

Quote

"To celebrate ten years of PlayStation Plus, Sony released some statistics [in June of 2020] related to the service, and the oft-maligned Sonic Forces is inexplicably popular, to the point of being the second most popular game ever offered as a free bonus to subscribers."

So, like it or not, this game made its way onto millions of PS4s. [Both le movie and el COVID probably helped, but still.] That means it probably has its fans, and... well, if 06 is getting another look and/or batch of love, so will this. (Search your feelings, you know it to be true.) It's not hard to see why: a Sonic game where Eggy wins is inherently interesting on paper. But Sonic Forces... really isn't like that. So... how can we turn this bad news for anyone that likes compelling plots and buddies that actually help out (cough, Tails, cough, Knuckles the Dumbass, cough) into something good?

Simple: remake time.

Gaming remakes have become all the rage as of late, with Crapti-BlizzSonyMicrosoft (eventually) and ESPECIALLY Capcom utilizing this to great effect. Hell, Sega's even hopping on this trend themselves with their other, non-hedgehog franchises... so why not give a game with such wasted potential another chance, with the end goal of getting this one right?

Setup's the same: Dr. Eggman and Infinite ambush Sonic with the Phantom Ruby and knock him out cold for six months, and then use said Ruby to steamroll the world's militaries (yes, including G.U.N and le humans) and - you guessed it - take over the world.

That's where the similarities end. Post-takeover (portrayed in a Snyder-style intro instead of a blank wall of text this time around), things are drastically different from the Forces we know and hate "love." Tails is no longer a dirty rotten coward, but a terrified child soldier running like hell after letting Sonic down in his battle against Infinite, the Chaos Emeralds and his Super form proving ineffective against the Phantom Ruby's wrath. With the genius proving unrelaible, Knuckles is thus thrust into leadership as one of the only ones left who can patch things together. Amy, Silver, the Chaotix... everyone's fighting back as hard as they can, but it just isn't enough. Some wonder if it can ever be enough...

...and then, a sign.

It's six months into the war, set in an abandoned UF city we've never seen before. (Let's use the underutilized city of Chicago, IL as our example, here called Lakeside City.) Tails is fixing Omega on Lower Wacker Drive, hiding in between abandoned police cruisers and Humvees to avoid Eggman's new squid-bots (yes, inspired by this bad boy). Out from a manhole pops Chaos, ambushing him and throwing him down the street and into a parked tank. Quickly becoming Chaos 2, it then begins to bash Omega right before the little kid's eyes...

...now, in Sonic Team land, this is where he begins to lie down and cry like the stupid baby they made him. This thus leads into Classic's introduction, and then him getting sidelined while the shitty fan insert Avatar saves Sonic in two levels and it's over in four hours and blabetty-blah-blah-fuckin-blah.

But this time... there's no Classic Sonic coming to save him. No fanfic immigrant there to bail him out.

Instead, Tails just watches as one of his few remaining friends gets the shit beaten out of him... and, through his tears, a single word is whispered.

"No."

Continued below.

Edited by KingMario05
This was typed at 3 AM. Obviously, there are typos. I has fixed its.
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3 hours ago, Wraith said:

I no longer thinks he needs the other stuff, and as far as we're fielding retcons I'd suggest the nature of Maria's death change as well. State-sanction murder might be out of Sonic's wheelhouse, but I don't think illness is.

Playing off this a little bit; Shadow (as far as I know) was apparently developed as a cure for whatever Maria had. Archie was the first time I remember learning it was a thing at all, but I think it's sourced from some random Japanese guide too? I say this as someone who has no issue with the nature of the GUN raid in SA2 (hell, I don't even mind the Black Arms), and my only real issue is that the game just throws out all sorts of ideas that loosely tie together but don't really make for a sensible plot, but you can sorta tie them together in a different way.

Basically the government just writes Shadow and the ULF project off as a failure because maybe he's actually too gentle for what they want (which would be what Gerald intended) and the prototypes were uncontrollable and frozen but this also means the funding for the ARK gets cut off. Gerald, Maria and Shadow are left alone on the ARK because if Maria leaves the station she will die but Gerald is just barely keeping her healthy. She passes, Gerald breaks and then grooms Shadow into an instrument of revenge and then seals him away on the ARK. Eggman just wakes him up there instead of a military base. I think most of the key present-time events in SA2 can still work, and up until then we can do stuff to explore Shadow's relationship with Maria through flashbacks and he eventually comes around because the Biolizard  was still there as a failsafe if Shadow didn't complete his mission.

From there, yeah, he survives, no amnesia (which they were already really non-committal about in Heroes if he recognizes Rouge, Eggman and Sonic and seems to recall the past events fine) and I'm pretty much fine with whatever else from there, since I do agree that Maria should feel more important to him. That was something I liked about his short story recently where he still thinks about her wish and how it influences him even though he's terrible at communicating his intentions since Sonic thinks he's doing some bad at first.

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20 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

Playing off this a little bit; Shadow (as far as I know) was apparently developed as a cure for whatever Maria had. Archie was the first time I remember learning it was a thing at all, but I think it's sourced from some random Japanese guide too? I say this as someone who has no issue with the nature of the GUN raid in SA2 (hell, I don't even mind the Black Arms), and my only real issue is that the game just throws out all sorts of ideas that loosely tie together but don't really make for a sensible plot, but you can sorta tie them together in a different way.

I never minded the GUN raid either but I've seen enough people complain about it that I figured I'd suggest a compromise.

I could take or leave the Black Arms. I thought that game was alright but for my ideas I don't really need them so 🤷‍♂️

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Slowly but surely he rises, grabbing the baseball bat of some forgotten Little League wonder.

"Not today."

Every neuron's telling him to run, to flee, to get back to safety and leave Omega for dead. But deep within his soul, a spark of vengeful fury takes hold. He's lost everything... his home, his parents, his world, and his very best friend. He... is not... losing... Omega... today.

"Not with THIS FRIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEND!"

With a vicious snarl, Miles lunges at Chaos 2 to start the first boss fight of the game! The two clash and bash on Lower Wacker Drive, this vicious "beast" calling upon the city's sewer system to evolve further beyond at a rate the flying fox boy's never seen before. Chaos 3, 4, 5, 6... soon, he is Perfect, lording over the skyscrapers as a vicious waterspout and its terrible lightning begin tearing the ruins of Lakeside apart.

Tails should be scared. He should be paralyzed with fear instead of blinded with vengeful rage. But then, as he keeps whacking Chaos with his bat... he begins to notice something.

Every three hits, the God of Destruction evolves. That much is certain. However, Tails knows that a water god should release water, not... little red cubes. And then, with each evolution, he begins glitching out as the storm above becomes the same eerie sunshine there was before. Flying up to a rooftop (and whacking PC all the while), the glitches become more frequent... and then it hits him.

"Wait a second... he's not real!"

The higher he climbs, the weaker it gets. Of course! Now it's all making sense, now he knows what to do!

"You clever little... heh heh, you were never real!"

With a maddening grin, he dives back into the illusion, aiming the bat with everything he's got...

"You... were never... REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAL!"

Smash! As quickly as it comes, it's over with a strike of its inner cube. The illusion collapses back into reality, everything exactly as it was before. Some rings and a spare apple later, and he's good as new... hell, even Omega's fine! Sighing with relief, the kid walks toward the largest lone cube, expecting to bring it back to base as a nice little trinket of the day he got his mojo back.

Instead, with a flash, he's in another illusion almost instantly. One that feels just as real, but far more clinical... it's a prison. Eggman's prison, the same one he's been seeing propaganda about for months now. And when he sees it's occupant... the kid breaks down with tears of joy.

He's bruised and beaten, one shoe and glove both gone. His quills are caked with dirt, eyes half asleep...

...but even so, he'd recognize that voice anywhere.

"...T-T... Tails? You... you okay?"

It's his Sonic... and somehow, he's alive.

Continued below. Again. Last one, I promise...

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12 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I never minded the GUN raid either but I've seen enough people complain about it that I figured I'd suggest a compromise.

I could take or leave the Black Arms. I thought that game was alright but for my ideas I don't really need them so 🤷‍♂️

Yeah I think I've become more ambivalent toward the Black Arms; I didn't mind them but I do agree they were always kinda superfluous. But Archie gave me Eclipse, who was really fun for the few issues he had even if he'll never be "canon," and I sorta like the idea of Shadow having an actual evil counterpart tied to his roots. I guess at this point you can throw out all the shit Infinite had and make him a pseudo-Eclipse by making him something created by Eggman following Gerald's notes and combined with a jackal he kidnapped.

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                                                                        _________________________________________________________________________

Still with me? Good. That was make take on "sAnIc HeLp Me," interwoven with the Chaos boss fight we never got.

(And don't tell me they didn't tease it. They knew damn well what they were implying in those trailers...)

So, obviously, this leads to the rest of the plot. With no Avatar, Tails is free to be the hero Sonic always wanted him to become one day, now driven by the insane hope that, somehow, Sonic isn't nearly as dead as Eggman is implying him to be. Naturally, no one believes him due to the cube not working when he gets back... even so, Knux and Amy agree to let him at least try to gather more proof. (The latter also agrees to help him out... ostensibly to expedite his grieving process, but we all know why she's really on board with his supposed lunacy.)

That's basically our first half sorted out already. Tails and Amy (one and two players supported) search for more evidence, whilst Knuckles focuses on beating back the robot hordes. All three playstyles act as a combo of Adventure/Boost, with each character having their own special "cherry on top." (Tails' flight and craftable weapons, such as his bat; Amy's hammer and card-based attacks; Knux's melee and gliding, etc. etc. etc. Can also be monetized for additional DLC.) Both are globe-spanning Adventures (HA!) in the vein of Unleashed, with different side quests and collectibles in each zone. (Lakeside is one, Central City another, there's one in Japan, a grand Egg Casino in the Not-Amazon-Rainforest and a large action sequence in London Metro Avalon, where GUN is now based out of. Plus Siberia, a volcano, a desert in wherever Seven Rings took place, etc.) Cubes are earned per level, with at least a few Chaos Emeralds (remember those) sprinkled in to keep the old tradition alive. Eventually, the proof convinces Knux and Tails takes on the big midway setpiece, the storming of the Death Egg itself, freeing Sonic and re-introducing Dark Mode in the first big bout against the one, the only... Infinite.

Comforting Sonic after he loses control during the boss fight and wipes out a city or two back on Earth, Tails convinces him to join him in the game's second act and get his mojo back by setting the world right. At long last, Sonic is playable, combining both the Boost drifting and quick-step with Adventure 1's attacks in what - for very obvious reasons - should be the highlight of the game. Slowly but surely, that cocky bastard we all know and love is unleashed yet again as Tails supports him however he can. (Co-op's available here, too. All local, by the way... none of this XBL/PSN/Nintendo online BS. At least, not at launch.) And just in time, too... for Eggman, having been driven mad, once again drops the Sun on Earth in an attempt to wipe everyone out. But with our hero back in action and his army taking territory at a rapid pace, it's gonna take a LOT more than that to stop them now.

As for the other story beats... well, this is an all-out war, right? Why not have some fun with it? Knuckles fighting through hordes of roboticized G.U.N. goons in post-apocalyptic San Francisco Central City to save the human President, thereby gaining human support? Sure! Silver and Infinite, duking it out in the hellish void of Null Space? Why not? Humorous side stories about helping random people out along the way, whether they're ambushing Metal Sonic's birthday party or Shadow infiltrating the aforementioned casino with cross-dressing shenanigans galore? Eh... ahm... might wanna rethink that last one. (Then again, if Squenix got away with it in FF7R... oh, what the hell, it's Sonic. This franchise has had worse experiments.) And a finale where Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and Amy all go Hyper in a last-ditch attempt to lead the world's free armies and take on a planet-sized, Eldritch as all hell Perfect Infinite focused on the annihilation of all life itselfHell. Fucking. YES.

Anyway, I believe that sums it all up. Basically, remake Sonic Forces as the AAA game Sega wanted it to be... not the AA, "it's fine I guess," clearly contractually-obligated Sonic Mania ad eighth-gen wet fart that Sonic Team actually gave us. As for who does it? Well, one of the Yakuza team's top minds DOES wanna make a Sonic game... perhaps this could be the perfect pitch for them.

Spoiler

Oh, and before anyone asks: Studiopolis cast, same musicians with Starset invited along for the ride (cause I like them, god damn it), light T rating target, PC/Xbox Series/PS5 only, and it releases whenever it's done and not a second before.

Add in an Xbox marketing deal, and we're all set.

 

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AWild No.1 washed up gamer

I don't know if I'm gonna do this right but...uh....

Sonic 4.  At least... Maybe make episode 1 and 2 one game. Throw in some secret areas in episode 1 levels that you can now reach with the twin roll with tails. Give the bosses more hitpoints and 3 pinch phases. Minor nitpick but the episode 2 final boss theme should've been the normal stage boss theme.

...that's all I got right now. I'll come back later with something cooler. I tried not to take out anything but you said you couldn't change things either right?

 

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7 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Well I dunno if its a dub only line, but Eggman does mention that there may be more of them. I'm pretty much taking that context and running with it. 

Not that I'm opposed to the idea of them being something supernatural ;  you got any ideas?

More of them existing is fine, it's more that, I guess, creating these new mysterious monsters and having them be basically just funny looking humans with superpowers (much like the animal characters are basically funny looking humans, some with superpowers) is...underwhelming, doesn't feel like it adds anything to the universe, they may as well have just made them some kind of animal. With them being inspired by oni, having such wildly different designs, and having extreme and often one-note personalities, it feels like their origin should be something more...metaphorical, symbolic, rather than mundane. Like the obvious-to-the-point-of-cliche way to go is that they represent the seven deadly sins (hell even the names are similar); they're a man down so they don't perfectly line up, but some connections come easily. Food-obsessed Zomom is gluttony, weirdly human-woman-shaped Zeena is lust, mad and violent Zazz is wrath, depressed and nihilistic Zor could be considered a kind of sloth. They're representations of humanity's worst impulses, something of that sort.

So say Lost Hex is a locus of negative energy, something about it draws in all the bad vibes (or, negative chaos energy, energy formed from negative emotions) from the planet below. Every couple hundred years this buildup of energy "births" six demons into the world (think of it like Sonic's world's version of Dark Gaia, a heatsink of negative energy that needs to be flushed on a cycle, but on a shorter timescale so it's less catastrophic). Being created from all of the worst stuff, these demons are inevitably dangerous, destructive, selfish; they destroy each other and tear apart the very world they live on, the few strongest surviving to rule their claimed territory on their broken world until a new generation comes after them. So then, what makes the D6 stand out isn't that they're the baddest assholes of their species, but that they're the rare few that have learned how to cooperate, to (at least partially) overcome their nature, using their combined strength to crush the rest of the Zeti and establish themselves as the uncontested rulers of Lost Hex.

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26 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

More of them existing is fine, it's more that, I guess, creating these new mysterious monsters and having them be basically just funny looking humans with superpowers (much like the animal characters are basically funny looking humans, some with superpowers) is...underwhelming, doesn't feel like it adds anything to the universe, they may as well have just made them some kind of animal. With them being inspired by oni, having such wildly different designs, and having extreme and often one-note personalities, it feels like their origin should be something more...metaphorical, symbolic, rather than mundane. Like the obvious-to-the-point-of-cliche way to go is that they represent the seven deadly sins (hell even the names are similar); they're a man down so they don't perfectly line up, but some connections come easily. Food-obsessed Zomom is gluttony, weirdly human-woman-shaped Zeena is lust, mad and violent Zazz is wrath, depressed and nihilistic Zor could be considered a kind of sloth. They're representations of humanity's worst impulses, something of that sort.

So say Lost Hex is a locus of negative energy, something about it draws in all the bad vibes (or, negative chaos energy, energy formed from negative emotions) from the planet below. Every couple hundred years this buildup of energy "births" six demons into the world (think of it like Sonic's world's version of Dark Gaia, a heatsink of negative energy that needs to be flushed on a cycle, but on a shorter timescale so it's less catastrophic). Being created from all of the worst stuff, these demons are inevitably dangerous, destructive, selfish; they destroy each other and tear apart the very world they live on, the few strongest surviving to rule their claimed territory on their broken world until a new generation comes after them. So then, what makes the D6 stand out isn't that they're the baddest assholes of their species, but that they're the rare few that have learned how to cooperate, to (at least partially) overcome their nature, using their combined strength to crush the rest of the Zeti and establish themselves as the uncontested rulers of Lost Hex.

I want to reiterate that I actually like this idea, but this is just the Shadow Dragons arc in Dragon Ball GT. Fans even ran with that concept with Nazo lmao. So I'm just amused that most of our Sonic ideas just go back to Dragon Ball.

 

 

But yea, I've toiled with the idea of the six being demons of some kind. A manifestation of negative feelings and attitudes with the sole purpose of destruction. 

The whole lore behind Chaos Energy is turning thoughts and feelings into power; we see it with obvious examples like Sonic and Shadow, but a pure manifestation of negative thoughts hasn't been seen since Chaos.

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11 hours ago, charmsb said:

Is Infinite an unpopular concept?

Look, his design is awesome. And you know what? I absolutely adore how edgy he is and how he carries himself. Its so stupid but enjoyable. Its kinda like why I enjoy Shadow (game).

I think my only real problem is that they didnt use his powers enough and gave him a shitty reason to have his life changing moment.

Here's how I would improve Sonic Forces and Infinite in general: Get Sonic the fuck out of there. He has no connection to anyone, especially not Infinite. You know who does? Shadow. Make the entire game an "Episode Shadow". Have Infinite absolutely fucking torture him with illusions. Shit like Maria getting shot, him tearing up Radical Highway, images of Black Doom, etc. Make him relive the worst moments of his life without any escape.

With Shadow as a complete character in terms of his character arc, a good way to utilize him is to test him. And being forced to relive these horrible moments is a good way to do that.

The whole game is Shadow vs this edgier guy, Infinite. He's just as laughably edgy and dark as he is in Forces, but now he fits more because of the Shadow focus. You hear from/potentially play as Team Dark throughout the game and you have to stop Infinite from... doing something, idfk. And Infinite's newfound powers just so happen to be PERFECT for use against Shadow. Does Sonic have any traumatic events to relive, really? Idk, getting turned into a Werehog I guess? He doesn't seem like the type to really care. That's why you gotta use Shadow instead.

Yeah, that’s awesome! But to be fair, Sonic DID have a lot of traumatic moments mainly in the Genesis games; Tails gettin’ shot down, Knuckles being electrocuted, the Bad Futures, being locked in an escape pod and shot out to die…

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I don't really have any ideas how to alter concepts but I would like to make an unpopular statement. 

Since people usually say that Ian Flynn writes the Deadly Six better than the games but honestly IMHO they're not that different under his pen doesn't that mean that there's nothing inherently wrong with the Deadly Six as characters or a concept but it's all in how they were written? 

Then again personally I don't hate the Deadly Six in Lost World so I probably don't know what I'm talking about. 

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They're more tolerable under Ian's pen because he's better at writing dialogue, but there's only so much to be done with fundamentally bad characters before you hit a ceiling. Sega would have had to allow for a more drastic reinvention to make them worth something.

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20 minutes ago, Wraith said:

They're more tolerable under Ian's pen because he's better at writing dialogue, but there's only so much to be done with fundamentally bad characters before you hit a ceiling. Sega would have had to allow for a more drastic reinvention to make them worth something.

What is do fundamentally bad about them though? Like yeah they're not the deepest characters but how does that make them these horrible characters who absolutely need to be rebuilt from the ground up to be considered good?

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I like the Six under Ian because he makes them do something. The entirety of Lost World is them spouting edgy-ass threats that make Shadow the Hedgehog look like goddamned Shakespeare but are little more than ugly targets for Sonic to smack around. There's no weight or importance to them at all despite being the central threat of the game. At least in Archie and IDW, they actually have the strength to back up all their trash talk, and perhaps more importantly, they actually behave like a team and interact with each other to develop their personalities beyond the boring archetypes that they embody.

They don't have to be "deep" to be interesting, and that was never an expectation anyone had with this series.

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16 hours ago, BadBehavior said:

The sword from Black Knight: just tweak the animations so Sonic doesn't lose too much speed when swinging, and make the boss fights less of a crapshoot waggle-fest.

But to tweak a concepts that seems to be popular: the wisps. Everyone compares them to mario powerups and I'm like "No?" Mario doesn't lose the fire flower after blasting one fireball. He doesn't lose the Tanuki leaf after some arbitrary amount of time. So I thought what if wisps actually did function like Mario powerups? Actual, meaningful additions to Sonic's moveset and not something that Conker's Bad Fur Day parodied 20 years ago with Context Sensitive buttons? Assuming the framework is exactly like your standard Boost game.

Laser. Allows him to do a Lost World style chain homing attack.
Cube. If you have it, you can jump on cube platforms. If you don't, you don't. No slow stomp switching bullcrap.
Spike: Allows you to go up certain steep surfaces when boosting. (Or maybe allows you to stick to ceilings if Sonic Team thought we needed some nostalgia pandering for 06 ;P)
Burst: Can do infinite jumps so long as he has to speed to maintain them. Basically the Cape feather from SMW (or Ray from Mania + to the cultured among us). As a bonus, maybe the flames light up dark levels.
Hover: since Burst has taken what Hover can do, Hover just restores access to the light speed ring dash. And not for context sensitive trails either, for all trails like from Adventure-Unleashed.

That's all I can think of right now.

Further, the more of each Wisp you rescue, the stronger (and longer lasting) the power becomes, encouraging combos on Badniks, finding hidden wisps, and getting good ranks. Perhaps we could take it further, and allow Wisps to interface with Chao, making them a lot like Cyber-Elves from Megaman Zero.

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Cosmos Rogue

I haven't played Forces myself but one of the most consistent criticisms I see of that game is that Sonic's friends spend the game just standing around, being useless and shitty. Forces also introduced character customization, with the Avatar having different abilities depending on what animal they are and what Wispon they have equipped. I think bringing back so many of the characters could have worked had they been used in place of the Avatar* and the Wispons as a way to customize Sonic instead. My idea is similar to how Sonic Advance 3 worked, except you would always play as Sonic as your lead character. You could choose which character you want to have be Sonic's sidekick before each level**.  Sonic would always have his standard boost game moveset, but also gain one new move from each of his teammates. Tails could fly Sonic up, Knuckles could punch through breakable obstacles, Shadow could use Chaos Control to slow down time. That sort of thing. Having different partners with Sonic would allow the player to access different routes or give the player multiple ways to tackle challenges. Sonic's friends would have something to do, the gameplay could have remained more focused than it was the last time these characters were playable, and players would be able to customize their Sonic experience. Win/win/win?

*This could also work by making Sonic's friends the Avatar's sidekicks instead, but I think the Avatar is a fundamentally misguided idea. But this topic is for fixing things, so I digress.

**During the story mode there would be levels where your choices are either limited or made for you by the circumstances of the story. There could be a level where Sonic and Knuckles are fighting Eggman's army on the frontline, so you just have to have Knuckles as your sidekick for that stage for example. Once you beat the game you could revisit the levels with any character you want.

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4 minutes ago, Cosmos Rogue said:

idea is similar to how Sonic Advance 3 worked, except you would always play as Sonic as your lead character. You could choose which character you want to have be Sonic's sidekick before each level.  Sonic would always have his standard boost game moveset, but also gain one new move from each of his teammates. Tails could fly Sonic up, Knuckles could punch through breakable obstacles, Shadow could use Chaos Control to slow down time. That sort of thing. Having different partners with Sonic would allow the player to access different routes or give the player multiple ways to tackle challenges. Sonic's friends would have something to do, the gameplay could have remained more focused than it was the last time these characters were playable, and players would be able to customize their Sonic experience. Win/win/win?

I think so. Still prefer my take more, but that works too.

Spoiler

And, like you, I don't think the Avatar was a good idea.

 

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11 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I want to reiterate that I actually like this idea, but this is just the Shadow Dragons arc in Dragon Ball GT. Fans even ran with that concept with Nazo lmao. So I'm just amused that most of our Sonic ideas just go back to Dragon Ball.

 

 

But yea, I've toiled with the idea of the six being demons of some kind. A manifestation of negative feelings and attitudes with the sole purpose of destruction. 

The whole lore behind Chaos Energy is turning thoughts and feelings into power; we see it with obvious examples like Sonic and Shadow, but a pure manifestation of negative thoughts hasn't been seen since Chaos.

It's funny you mention that because one theory behind their group name is that one draft of Sonic Xtreme does indeed have similar creatures appear when the Chaos Emeralds split open or something.

22 hours ago, Wraith said:

I wouldn't have been happy playing with a fake Shadow. I never liked that idea. It feels even more a cop out than just killing him off. Now Shadow is always going to be here, which alienates people that hate him, but it's not the one people who like him grew attached to. 

Here's a better idea: the black and red hedgehog that shoots lasers and rides rocket skates, the obvious toy vehicle that was obviously going to haunt this franchise forever like a curse, should not have been on the chopping block. I didn't even think he was gone forever when I was six. Why bullshit? "Oh we're done with vegeta we're not doing that anymore." Yeah ok. 

You don't even have to change the story that much. Add a post credits scene that implies or outright states he survived the fall(though that's only the first of many changes I would make to SA2's narrative if I were allowed.)

Which is ironic, considering Vegeta actually was supposed to die at first until his popularity convinced Toriyama to keep him alive and make Frieza.

9 hours ago, SBR2 said:

I don't really have any ideas how to alter concepts but I would like to make an unpopular statement. 

Since people usually say that Ian Flynn writes the Deadly Six better than the games but honestly IMHO they're not that different under his pen doesn't that mean that there's nothing inherently wrong with the Deadly Six as characters or a concept but it's all in how they were written? 

Then again personally I don't hate the Deadly Six in Lost World so I probably don't know what I'm talking about. 

 

7 hours ago, Zaysho said:

I like the Six under Ian because he makes them do something. The entirety of Lost World is them spouting edgy-ass threats that make Shadow the Hedgehog look like goddamned Shakespeare but are little more than ugly targets for Sonic to smack around. There's no weight or importance to them at all despite being the central threat of the game. At least in Archie and IDW, they actually have the strength to back up all their trash talk, and perhaps more importantly, they actually behave like a team and interact with each other to develop their personalities beyond the boring archetypes that they embody.

They don't have to be "deep" to be interesting, and that was never an expectation anyone had with this series.

Basically.

One of the problems with the Deadly Six, particularly Zeena, is that they didn't really have that much to do in Lost World's story in and of themselves compared to other villains. They were there because it's their homeland that Eggman conquered, they lash out against him and the planet the moment Sonic removes the one thing keeping them in check, leave his Extractor running because Zavok overheard they could become stronger by drinking Mountain Dew made from the planet Eggman cares about, and then spend most of their time between boss fights either hanging out in a dark room or shouting threats before leaping away. Beyond the scenes of them getting into it with Eggman, Zavok & Zik planning what to do about Sonic, and Zazz & Zor deciding to go after Sonic for the fun of it, they don't have much presence or agency in the plot.

Contrast this with not only their movements in the Metal Virus finale & the Zeti Hunt arc, but with how the intro/commercials for the game made them out to be this cheesy gang of warlords actively terrorizing Sonic's World & hammily looking forward to their Kung Fu fights with him. 

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Fix the phantom ruby:

The simplest way to fix it is to give it a better explanation of how it works. It's said that it generates illusions, but those illusions seem to actually apply their effect to the real world, so they are not just illusions, they are also solid.

I figured out a possible explanation, which can potentially also explain the time-space messing which allowed Classic Sonic to reach Modern Sonic's world once again.

- My explanation -

The Phantom Ruby doesn't just make illusions, it's a tool that can manipulate time and space and create new dimensions.

When used, a new dimension called Null Space is temporarily created, and the target (character or object, or both) is put in a paradox situation where they exist in both the real world and Null Space, taking the effects of the physics of both worlds at the same time (they still remain one single entity even if they exist in two worlds)

Null Space is in fact an empty space, generated by the energy used to fuel the Phantom Ruby. The more energy you put into it, the bigger Null Space can be. Null Space is a temporary dimension which requires energy to be mantained; this is why Sonic and the Avatar managed to break it and escape, because they overloaded it with energy. The same energy used to maintain the dimension, can also be used by the user of the Phantom Ruby in order to create anything inside it, as if they were the gods of Null Space.

The effects of the Null Space only affect the people or object that are hit by the red cubes, and only them can see or be influenced by what happens inside of their Null Space; other people or objects are not affected and people not hit by the cubes can't see anything even if an "illusion" is happening near them. That's why Eggman and Infinite would have survived to the attack of the sun.

The user can create an infinite amount of separated Null Spaces at the same time, hitting different targets too, though each dimension needs a certain amount of energy to work so it's generally not possible to do this outside of rare cases. In the same way, at the end of Forces they created a Null Space that covered the whole planet, and in order to activate it they needed to use a lot of energy.

A couple of times in the game, Sonic and the Avatar were sent completely inside Null Space, losing contact with the real world. That is possible too, and in that case it can't be defined as an illusion anymore, since there's no confusing mixing of two worlds anymore.

Infinite can "fly" with the power of the Phantom Ruby, but in fact he doesn't: he just uses the power of the Ruby on himself, mixing his reality with a null space that features a road, said road is only visible and solid to him, while other people see him as floating. A vehicle or something might also exist inside of that space, but we can't see it.

By messing with time and space, the Pantom Ruby can generate holes that connect to other dimensions or timelines. This is not an intended effect, it's a side effect and it was the cause of Classic Sonic reaching the Modern world. The ruby is indeed very unstable and dangerous, and the prototypes of the ruby were even more affected by these flaws, explaining how one of the rubies was sent to the Classic timeline/world and let the events of Mania happen.

EDIT: While the Null Space is in fact an actual new dimension created by the power of the Ruby, it can contain matter from the real world, but any matter created within it with the Ruby's energy can't exist outside of it, because it's not real matter but materialized energy. For example, Sonic can go completely inside Null Space, but a Sonic clone created inside the Null Space can't be fully transported into the real world as it would just vanish; real world's physics don't allow the Ruby's energy to stay materialized. That's why you need to overlap the two dimension in order to make the "illusions" work.

EDIT2: the more real world matter (or energy) you keep inside Null Space, the more the Null Space becomes "heavy", and so it requires more energy to be maintained. When the Ruby's energy is simply not enough, all the real world matter (or energy) inside the Null Space is sent back to where it was before, and the overloaded Null Space falls apart (it just disappears into nothing).

(I have another idea but I'll write about it later in another post)

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I would like to try this. I would reimagine the Zeti and the Lost Hex this way.

The Lost Hex is actually the home of many supernatural/mythical races such as Boom Boos, Trolls, Dragons, etc. The Zeti are one of these races as they are the Sonic universe's equivalent of Demons.

Years ago, the Zeti were a powerful, technologically advanced, warrior race that desired to terrorize and destroy all trace of other life and civilization on both the Lost Hex and eventually Sonic's world as they saw themselves as the superior race.

This started many conflicts on the Lost Hex. The Conch was created as a weapon against the Zeti during this time. Eventually the Zeti would conquer the Lost Hex but then the Zeti would pull a Knuckles Clan and got themselves destroyed by a powerful force leaving only six survivors. These six survivors would form the Deadly Six to protect their conquered territory from any enemies and to continue the mission of their fallen race by any means necessary.

Basically the D6 are destructive, terroristic, power-hungry warriors who will destroy anything non-Zeti related for the sake of their race's pride and legacy.  

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The second concept is about gameplay mechanics.

Just like the Phantom Ruby, this is not something which I dislike, but something that I consider bad executed more than anything. You know how much I like Sonic Advance 2, but even if I like the game, nobody can unironically like that way to access those special stages.

So why not trying to fix it?

Let's start by saying that in my opinion the idea of collecting the special rings is not bad on paper: it incentivates exploration, and it's very satisfying when you manage to get them. The problem comes from when you have to collect ALL of them and have absolutely no clue of where they are (they are generally placed on a single path, usually the highest route, but that's not always the case, and there's a specific case in Techno Base where one of the rings requires backtracking).

So, let's just make them not all mandatory.

-In order to access a special stage, you have to collect 7 special rings, but what if you are allowed to keep the ones collected in Act 1 and bring them to Act 2? For example, you got 2 SP rings in Act 1, then you have to collect 5 of them in Act 2 (instead of 7); 2 + 5 = 7, you still meet the requirement for accessing the special stage at the end of act 2. This way the system is more forgiving, but still requires a decent amount of exploration. They are reset when you reach the boss act, or when you consume them for accessing the special stage, so that at the beginning of a new zone you will always restart from 0.

-Maybe there can be a few additional special rings hidden in the levels, maybe 10 total instead of 7, and when you reach 7 and collect more, they just give you 25 rings each. I know the level design of Advance 2 well enough and I'm sure that there are a few interesting spots where they could have hidden some but they didn't.

-If you access the special stage in Act 1 and get the emerald, you can still collect 7 special rings in Act 2 too and access the same special stage once again, though you are rewarded a continue instead of a chaos emerald (since emeralds are tied to zones, and you have already collected it in the current one).

-If you die, you lose all the special rings collected after the last checkpoint/beginning of act (basically until the point where you restart), but you keep all the ones you had before the checkpoint/end of Act 1, except one... each time you die, you lose one additional sp ring. For example, you reach Act 2 with 3 SP rings, then lose a life near the beginning of the act after having collected 2 new rings. You will lose the 2 new rings plus you will restart from the beginning of the act with 2 rings instead of 3. You can still recollect the ones which you did collect before in the previous attempt, they aren't lost. With the existing system instead, you would lose all of them each time you die, forcing you to restart the level in case you reached a checkpoint, because backtracking is often impossible.

-In case of an enhanced remake, you can still make each single SP ring mandatory to collect (for 100% only), but they would be like the red rings in modern games, meaning that you can collect them in separated runs and not necessarily all at once. Give the player an unlockable radar or something that you can toggle in the options or pause menu, so searching for the rings is simpler and more fun (the radar would only react to the not yet collected ones); the radar can be something like the Miles Electrics, or a chao to follow, or something, I don't know. Collecting every SP ring in the game at least once would unlock content, I'm not sure of what, maybe add a gallery with artworks or something, I don't know.

-Especially, let collecting the emeralds with one character be enough, don't force the player to collect all of them with every character, that's just bad.

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