Sonic Prime is going to be Sonic Boom done right

[Shaddy Zaphod]

10 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

Nope, they have less appeal to younger audience and new generations because this audience doesn't have nostalgia for the Sega Genesis or other older titles in the franchise that came out when this kids haven't even been born yet..

The existence of callbacks to older material does not necessitate the absence of appeal to newer audiences. Sonic 1 and 2 haven't been rereleased a million times because only 90s fans buy them. Hell, I was born in 1999 and I have nostalgia for Sonic 2 and 3.

Also, again, you're not making any case for how your framing applies to this show, only how it might not for something else, and that something else isn't the thing you said it was in the OP.

[Empire88]

19 minutes ago, Shaddy Zaphod said:

The existence of callbacks to older material does not necessitate the absence of appeal to newer audiences. Sonic 1 and 2 haven't been rereleased a million times because only 90s fans buy them. Hell, I was born in 1999 and I have nostalgia for Sonic 2 and 3.

Agree. Just felt the need to add here that nostalgia isn't based off memories of remembering when something came out. It's about just having fond memories of something, especially when it is still relevant to your life. The classic games still have an appeal to people of all ages including kids today, and some people's first experiences with Sonic were the classic games even if they weren't born or too young when it released. 

It's like saying you can't be nostalgic for Star Wars unless you saw it in 1977 even though people of all ages have grown up with it today. 

[User18091994]

15 minutes ago, Shaddy Zaphod said:

Okay, and which Sonic shows and movies were not designed in any way to appeal to kids and make the series money?

The last Sonic TV show released before Sonic Boom was Sonic X that was released in 2003. It had the same goal, I remember reading the Sega's strategy with Sonic X was similar to Pokémon that uses the TV shows to make the whole franchise, including the games, more popular.

I'm not saying Sonic Prime has a different goal to Sonic X or other Sonic TV shows. Sonic Boom was the most recent effort to use this kind of strategy to make Sonic more popular, and I don't think it was as successful as they wanted. Despite how successful the show was, the Sonic Boom games sold very poorly and nowadays, no one even remember the 3DS ones, that means the TV show didn't have the potential to bring this kids into the other pillars of the franchise (such as the mainline games).

Sonic Prime has more potential because is more faithful to the main series, so the kids who will watch the show will be more willing to consume other content and pieces of media involving Sonic (such as the comics and games), because they will recognize the same character designs and settings. The same way that happen with Sonic X and games like Sonic Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog during the 2000s.

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

They are not. Especially not in this instance, where they talk about exploring the lore "of each game". It says nothing about declaring what is and is not canon, it's talking about exploring almost everything about the series' history.

Well, let's see the definition of Lore in the urban dictionary:

Quote

Lore
The collective history and the sum of all knowledge available about a certain fantasy or sci-fi universe.
- Do you know an RPG with a good story?
- Yeah, the Elder Scrolls games have quite the lore.

Source: Urban Dictionary

What about canon?

Quote

Canon
Another word for official. Used quite often in fan fiction to differentiate between the official storyline in which the fan fiction is based on.
"This fan fiction story is actually pretty close to being canon written by the original author."

Source: Urban Dictionary

In summary, lore is the collective history about a whole franchise and canon is the official storyline of said franchise. They are the same thing, you're going around in circles trying to deny something that's already been confirmed: the book will talk about the lore and canon of the series.

25 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

They may not have nostalgia for the Genesis games but they (presumably) enjoy the more recent games that are also represented in Generations. Also both games act as a way to introduce younger fans to the older parts of the series. They may be aimed more at long-time fans than other games, but Sega absolutely wants newer fans to buy them too.

What? I've never said the games aren't enjoyable for children, I said they weren't the main focus of games like Generations and Mania.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

3 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

I'm not saying Sonic Prime has a different goal to Sonic X or other Sonic TV shows. Sonic Boom was the most recent effort to use this kind of strategy to make Sonic more popular, and I don't think it was as successful as they wanted. Despite how successful the show was, the Sonic Boom games sold very poorly and nowadays, no one even remember the 3DS ones, that means the TV show didn't have the potential to bring this kids into the other pillars of the franchise (such as the mainline games).

None of the other shows have any games made to go along with them, so that's not a real measure of success.

3 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

Sonic Prime has more potential because is more faithful to the main series, so the kids who will watch the show will be more willing to consume other content and pieces of media involving Sonic (such as the comics and games), because they will recognize the same character designs and settings. The same way that happen with Sonic X and games like Sonic Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog during the 2000s.

Okay, and what games are those characters from? Is Shadow from a game made 20 years ago? A game that, by your measure, those kids should have no nostalgia for?

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

In summary, lore is the collective history about a whole franchise and canon is the official storyline of said franchise.

Right, those are different things. The book is likely to talk about both games that are canon and games that aren't canon, and you've given no evidence to assume it's going to differentiate between them.

3 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

What? I've never said the games aren't enjoyable for children, I said they weren't the main focus of games like Generations and Mania.

You said that making Sonic popular with children and strengthening the brand wasn't the goal of those games. But it is part of their goals, even if their goals also include appealing to older fans.

[User18091994]

34 minutes ago, Shaddy Zaphod said:

None of the other shows have any games made to go along with them, so that's not a real measure of success.

Okay, and what games are those characters from? Is Shadow from a game made 20 years ago? A game that, by your measure, those kids should have no nostalgia for?

Well, when Sonic X was being broadcasted they release games like Sonic Heroes, Shadow the Hedgehog, the Advanced series, etc. Some of these games even had the same voice cast as the Sonic X TV series. Sonic Heroes is one of the biggest-selling Sonic games of all time, and Shadow the Hedgehog also did pretty well in sales, despite the awful reviews from the critics,

If the Sonic Boom games sold poorly, even the ones that were released for 3DS, a very popular console among children at that time, it's safe to assume the TV show wasn't successful in the objective of making the whole series more popular among this new audience. They were consuming the TV show, and even the comic book series (Sonic Boom comic book series was also very successful), but they didn't have interest to consume the video games. A lot of kids who watched Sonic X at that time bought games like Heroes and Shadow TH, most kids who watched Sonic Boom didn't care.

I'm sorry, I don't want to be rude, but I think you totally misread my post. What exactly is your point about Shadow?

Sonic Boom TV show and Sonic Prime have similar goals: make Sonic more popular among children, exposure Sonic's brand to other audiences. TV shows and movies are way more capable of exposing a brand to newer audiences. Let's take Marvel Comics, for example. A lot of people watch the MCU movies, but have never touched a Marvel comic book before. What do you think that has more potential to bring more people to be interested in Marvel characters, a new comic book miniseries or a new movie or TV show?

If you think a Sonic TV show or a movie has the same marketing impact as a game. I'm sorry to say, but you haven't understood my point with this thread at all, and you probably don't know too much about marketing.
 

29 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Right, those are different things. The book is likely to talk about both games that are canon and games that aren't canon, and you've given no evidence to assume it's going to differentiate between them

The book is going to provide the official lore of the Sonic's game universe. Canon = the official storyline or lore of a sci-fi universe. What part haven't you understood?

29 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

You said that making Sonic popular with children and strengthening the brand wasn't the goal of those games. But it is part of their goals, even if their goals also include appealing to older fans.

I'm going to repeat the same thing I said before:

TV shows and movies are way more capable of exposing a brand to newer audiences. Let's take Marvel Comics, for example. A lot of people watch the MCU movies, but have never touched a Marvel comic book before. What do you think that has more potential to bring more people to be interested in Marvel characters, a new comic book miniseries or a new movie or TV show?

In conclusion, Sonic Generations didn't have the same marketing goal than Sonic Boom (TV show) or Sonic Prime. It was a game released for people who already knew and had interest in Sonic and video games, while Sonic Boom was a TV show aimed to reach newer audiences that didn't even know Sonic yet.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

3 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

Well, when Sonic X was being broadcasted they release games like Sonic Heroes, Shadow the Hedgehog, the Advanced series, etc. Some of these games even had the same voice cast as the Sonic X TV series. Sonic Heroes is one of the biggest-selling Sonic games of all time, and Shadow the Hedgehog also did pretty well in sales, despite the awful reviews from the critic,

And? Those games weren't made to promote the TV shows, where Sonic Boom was a TV show before it was anything else. It's a false equivalence no matter how you cut it.

4 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

If the Sonic Boom games sold poorly, even the ones that were released for 3DS, a very popular console among children at that time, it's safe to assume the TV show wasn't successful in the objective of making the whole series more popular among this new audience. They were consuming the TV show, and even the comic book series (Sonic Boom comic book series were also very successful), but they didn't have interest to consume the video games. A lot of kids who watched Sonic X at that time bought games like Heroes and Shadow TH, most kids who watched Sonic Boom didn't care.

Sonic 4 episode 2 also sold poorly, but you can't just correlate that with Generations or Episode 1 because you feel like it. You can't make these accusations about what games were successful while failing to define what they were trying to do and what "success" even means.

4 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

I'm sorry, I don't want to be rude,

Do you? It's a very easy thing to not do.

4 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

but I think you totally misread my post. What exactly is your point about Shadow?

If the presence of classic elements in the modern games is enough to say that "it's not made for the new kids", then the presence of a character created 20 years ago just to say he's in the game is proof of the exact same thing. Not only are you stalwartly refusing to actually objctively qualify this stuff, you couldn't do it if you wanted to because it's inherently subjective.

4 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

Sonic Boom TV show and Sonic Prime have similar goals: make Sonic more popular among children, exposure Sonic's brand to other audiences. TV shows and movies are way more capable of exposing a brand to newer audiences. Let's take Marvel Comics, for example. A lot of people watch the MCU movies, but have never touched a Marvel comic book before. What do you think that has more potential to bring more people to be interested in Marvel characters, a new comic book miniseries or a new movie or TV show?

As we've told you several times at this point, every Sonic property appeals to kids and all of them are designed to make money and be popular. If you're going to use a definition that vague, you're just singling out Boom for the sake of your personal bias.

4 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

If you think a Sonic TV show or a movie has the same marketing impact as a game. I'm sorry to say, but you haven't understood my point with this topic at all, and you probably don't know too much about marketing.

I understand your topic's point, it's a bad point made with flawed logic. Sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear I guess, but I can't exactly pretend to take well to being told I'm not understanding just because I don't agree.

[User18091994]

32 minutes ago, Shaddy Zaphod said:

And? Those games weren't made to promote the TV shows, where Sonic Boom was a TV show before it was anything else. It's a false equivalence no matter how you cut it.

Nope, I've never said that. I said the TV shows were released to promote the games and every other product involving Sonic's brand, not the other way around. What part of: "TV shows and movies are way more capable of exposing a brand to newer audiences." haven't you understood yet? You misread my post because you are accusing me of saying the exact opposite of what I'm saying the whole time.

32 minutes ago, Shaddy Zaphod said:

Sonic 4 episode 2 also sold poorly, but you can't just correlate that with Generations or Episode 1 because you feel like it. You can't make these accusations about what games were successful while failing to define what they were trying to do and what "success" even means.

Sonic 4 Episode 2 sold poorly because of the general disappointment with the first episode. But this doesn't have anything to do with what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about the very common strategy of using TV shows and movies to exposure a brand or a character to newer audiences. The whole point of this kind of strategy is to increase the sales of every product involving the brand (games, comic books, toys and merchandising, etc), because when you expose a brand to more people, more people will be interested in buying these products or consuming content about the character and the series. Sonic Boom failed because the audience didn't have interest to consume the video games or other products involving Sonic beyond the Sonic Boom series itself. It was a very successful TV show, but failed in this specific goal.

I said Sonic Prime will be the Sonic Boom done right because I believe that Prime has more potential to reach this objective: expose Sonic's brand to newer audience and increase the sales of all products and contents about Sonic. The same way past TV shows like Sonic X did. 

I'm being very clearly about all this thing. You that had failed to understand my point.

32 minutes ago, Shaddy Zaphod said:

As we've told you several times at this point, every Sonic property appeals to kids and all of them are designed to make money and be popular. If you're going to use a definition that vague, you're just singling out Boom for the sake of your personal bias.

I understand your topic's point, it's a bad point made with flawed logic. Sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear I guess, but I can't exactly pretend to take well to being told I'm not understanding just because I don't agree.

Of course, they are designed to make money and be more popular, but TV shows and movies specifically, are a common strategy for franchises like Sonic or Pokémon to expose the brand to newer audiences and the games don't have this objective at all. The game is the product, the TV show is a marketing effort to expose the character and the series and promote the products (including the games).

32 minutes ago, Shaddy Zaphod said:

I understand your topic's point, it's a bad point made with flawed logic. Sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear I guess, but I can't exactly pretend to take well to being told I'm not understanding just because I don't agree.

Nope, you are totally misreading my post, and you don't understand anything about marketing. Well, I'm going to sleep now. See ya

[Shaddy Zaphod]

58 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

Nope, I've never said that. I said the TV shows were released to promote the games and every other product involving Sonic's brand, not the other way around. What part of: "TV shows and movies are way more capable of exposing a brand to newer audiences." haven't you understood yet? You misread my post because you are accusing me of saying the exact opposite of what I'm saying the whole time.

I didn't misread your post. Your post is just bad.

And whether you say it or not, Sonic Boom the TV show was factually the first thing to come from the brand. The games were the promotional material.

58 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

Sonic 4 Episode 2 sold poorly because of the general disappointment with the first episode. But this doesn't have anything to do with what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about the very common strategy of using TV shows and movies to exposure a brand or a character to newer audiences. The whole point of this kind of strategy is to increase the sales of every product involving the brand (games, comic books, toys and merchandising, etc), because when you expose a brand to more people, more people will be interested in buying these products or consuming content about the character and the series. Sonic Boom failed because the audience didn't have interest to consume the video games or other products involving Sonic beyond the Sonic Boom series itself. It was a very successful TV show, but failed in this specific goal.

And I'm saying that your judgement on this topic is very poor, much like your attitude. You can't make the argument that Sonic Boom as a property failed when the main TV show failed to sell promotional video games, especially when the main series games after the show ended sold great.

58 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

I said Sonic Prime will be the Sonic Boom done right because I believe that Prime has more potential to reach this objective: expose Sonic's brand to newer audience and increase the sales of all products and contents about Sonic. The same way past TV shows like Sonic X did.

And that's a very weird and dumb thing to say, because that "objective" is literally the objective of all Sonic material.

58 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

I'm being very clearly about all this thing. You that had failed to understand my point.

I never said you were unclear. You're just wrong, dude. You don't have to shift that blame onto everyone else.

58 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

Of course, they are designed to make money and be more popular, but TV shows and movies specifically, are a common strategy for franchises like Sonic or Pokémon to expose the brand to newer audiences and the games don't have this objective at all. The game is the product, the TV show is a marketing effort to expose the character and the series and promote the products (including the games).

Well, not always though. Mario World wasn't made to promote the Mario 3 cartoon. Sonic Boom, on the other hand, was a TV show first, and Sonic Synergy was retooled to promote it. Shattered Crystal and Fire & Ice were made for this purpose as well.

58 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

Nope, you are totally misreading my post, and you don't understand anything about marketing. Well, I'm going to sleep now. See ya

Hope your dreams teach you not to gaslight people.

[User18091994]

1 hour ago, Shaddy Zaphod said:

I didn't misread your post. Your post is just bad.

And whether you say it or not, Sonic Boom the TV show was factually the first thing to come from the brand. The games were the promotional material.

And I'm saying that your judgement on this topic is very poor, much like your attitude. You can't make the argument that Sonic Boom as a property failed when the main TV show failed to sell promotional video games, especially when the main series games after the show ended sold great.

And that's a very weird and dumb thing to say, because that "objective" is literally the objective of all Sonic material.

I never said you were unclear. You're just wrong, dude. You don't have to shift that blame onto everyone else.

Well, not always though. Mario World wasn't made to promote the Mario 3 cartoon. Sonic Boom, on the other hand, was a TV show first, and Sonic Synergy was retooled to promote it. Shattered Crystal and Fire & Ice were made for this purpose as well.

Hope your dreams teach you not to gaslight people.

I didn't say Sonic Boom failed, I said the Sonic Boom failed in this specific aspect of bringing more fans to the Sonic franchise. I said several times that the TV show was very successful. I've never said the TV show was bad, I didn't even said Sonic Prime is going to be better in terms of quality. The whole point of my thread was to analyze the potential of Sonic Prime in this marketing aspect.

The Sonic Boom games were products release to capitalize on the TV show success, just like other products involving the Sonic Boom brand (merchandising, toys, etc), just like every other kids TV show works. Kids TV shows are released to sell toys and products. 

Okay, I've already understood that you didn't like my post, dude. I respect your opinion, but I don't want to answer your posts anymore. Keep your opinions, I keep mine. Bye

 

 

[Shaddy Zaphod]

1 hour ago, Raphael Martins said:

I didn't say Sonic Boom failed, I said the Sonic Boom failed in this specific aspect of bringing more fans to the Sonic franchise.

And your reasoning for this is that the games didn't sell great, which is flawed in that those games were a promotion for the show rather than the other way around, and you don't consider other parts of the series "failed" when measured by that same standard.

1 hour ago, Raphael Martins said:

I said several times that the TV show was very successful. I've never said the TV show was bad, I didn't even said Sonic Prime is going to be better in terms of quality.

Okay? I never said otherwise. If you think I'm arguing on the basis of "I like a thing and you don't" and not "I think your argument is incorrect", that's pretty condescending.

1 hour ago, Raphael Martins said:

The whole point of my thread was to analyze the potential of Sonic Prime in this marketing aspect.

Well, that's what I'm doing, isn't it? I'm analyzing your judgement of the marketing strategies, and it turns out it's full of holes.

1 hour ago, Raphael Martins said:

The Sonic Boom games were products release to capitalize on the TV show success, just like other products involving the Sonic Boom brand (merchandising, toys, etc), just like every other kids TV show works. Kids TV shows are released to sell toys and products.

Uh-huh, and so measuring the success of a TV-focused subseries by how well the promotional material for it does is a bit unwise, isn't it? Sonic games in general have been selling great, better than great in terms of Mania and Forces, and the Boom toy line sold really well. There is no reason to measure by the strength of only the console game sales, because even those are dwarfed by mobile sales, which Sonic does overwhelmingly well.

1 hour ago, Raphael Martins said:

Okay, I've already understood that you didn't like my post, dude. I respect your opinion, but I don't want to answer your posts anymore. Keep your opinions, I keep mine. Bye

I thought you were doing that when you said you were going to sleep a couple hours ago.

[User18091994]

2 hours ago, Shaddy Zaphod said:

And your reasoning for this is that the games didn't sell great, which is flawed in that those games were a promotion for the show rather than the other way around, and you don't consider other parts of the series "failed" when measured by that same standard.

Okay? I never said otherwise. If you think I'm arguing on the basis of "I like a thing and you don't" and not "I think your argument is incorrect", that's pretty condescending.

Well, that's what I'm doing, isn't it? I'm analyzing your judgement of the marketing strategies, and it turns out it's full of holes.

Uh-huh, and so measuring the success of a TV-focused subseries by how well the promotional material for it does is a bit unwise, isn't it? Sonic games in general have been selling great, better than great in terms of Mania and Forces, and the Boom toy line sold really well. There is no reason to measure by the strength of only the console game sales, because even those are dwarfed by mobile sales, which Sonic does overwhelmingly well.

I thought you were doing that when you said you were going to sleep a couple hours ago.

Sonic Forces has performed strongly, but it did as great as always. Sega wanted Sonic to be even more popular. Sega themselves said the main strategy behind Sonic Prime is to strength the franchise. According to your logic, Sega wouldn't have any reason to have this kind of mindset with this project because Sonic is already strong. It's like you are assuming that something popular couldn't be more popular, what doesn't make any sense. You are failing to understand my point because you are assuming the wrong things about what I mean with worlds like "failed". When I say Boom wasn't successful in reaching this objective, you understand like I'm saying the whole project was a commercial failure, what definitely isn't my point.

Sonic Boom was a huge marketing effort with similar objectives to Prime now. Sega wanted to introduce Sonic's character and franchise to newer audiences, mostly kids who didn't know Sonic yet. They did the partnership with BigRedButton to develop Sonic Synergy that later became the video game adaptation of Sonic Boom, because they wanted to work with western developers to make Sonic has more appeal to the western market. The main goal of Sonic Boom wasn't only be a successful TV show or a successful spin-off series in the games, was to make Sonic reach another level of popularity, bringing a new audience to the already pre-established fan base the franchise already has. Also, as I said before, it's a common thing for companies to use TV shows or movies in this kind of strategy because TV and movies reach a larger audience, and it's more easy to expose the brand this way.

Sonic Boom failed to reach this objective because during and after the Boom era, Sonic still continues to have the same level of popularity. The games continue to sell as good as they used to, for example. The Boom TV show was very popular, so was the comic book series, however, for some reason the children watching the TV show didn't go buying the games or other products beyond the Sonic Boom series.

When I said Sonic Boom games sold poorly, I'm bringing this as an evidence that the TV show success wasn't big enough to boost sales of the franchise as a whole, what was the Sega main objective with the project, but it's not only that. The brand popularity as a whole during and after the Boom era it's the strongest evidence. What you aren't understanding is that Sonic Boom didn't want to be only a successful TV show, it wanted to make Sonic more popular than it already was, but it didn't.

This isn't the first time Sega tried to reach newer audiences with Sonic's products. Shadow the Hedgehog was a game released aiming to reach a newer, more mature audience compared to games like Sonic Heroes. They followed trends of the western gaming industry at that time. But Shadow the Hedgehog failed to reach this objective. The game sold pretty well, but at the same level of Sonic Heroes and most of the people that bought the games were children, not the target audience they wanted. When I say Shadow the Hedgehog failed to increase the popularity of the series and reach newer audiences, I'm not saying the game wasn't a commercial success, I'm saying it didn't reach the objectives Sega wanted to with the project. It's the same case with Sonic Boom.

Now let's compare Sonic Boom to Sonic X. Sonic X was released with a similar objective than Boom. It was a multimedia marketing effort to increase the popularity of the brand and boost the sales of the games, comics, toys, merchandising and every other product involving Sonic. At that time, Sega abandoned the console business and became a sofhouse, so they want to introduce Sonic to people who didn't previously have Sega consoles and didn't know the series before. Sonic X was very successful in this aspect because it boosted the sales of the games, Sonic was in another level of popularity. There were a lot of kids who started playing Sonic because of the TV show. Sonic Heroes sold way better than expected, and probably Shadow the Hedgehog only sold as good as it did because of Sonic X as well. 

2 hours ago, Shaddy Zaphod said:

Well, that's what I'm doing, isn't it? I'm analyzing your judgement of the marketing strategies, and it turns out it's full of holes.

Uh-huh, and so measuring the success of a TV-focused subseries by how well the promotional material for it does is a bit unwise, isn't it? Sonic games in general have been selling great, better than great in terms of Mania and Forces, and the Boom toy line sold really well. There is no reason to measure by the strength of only the console game sales, because even those are dwarfed by mobile sales, which Sonic does overwhelmingly well.

Again, you are failing to understand that it's not because Sonic is a successful and strong franchise that Sega didn't expect Sonic Boom to make Sonic even more popular. You're also failing to understand that it's not because the games sell well and are popular that Sega doesn't want them to sell even better. As I said before, it's not the first time Sega tried a marketing move trying to make Sonic reach newer audiences. They did the same thing with games like Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic 2006, and even Lost World that was designed to appeal to Nintendo and Mario fans.

I'm measuring how Sonic Boom was able to increase the popularity of the brand. I'm not measuring if the series were financially successful. I've never said it wasn't. Maybe Sonic Boom series didn't reach this objective because of the different character designs and settings, maybe the children who watched and enjoyed the show were only interested in the Boom universe, not in the franchise as a whole. Sonic Prime will have the same settings as the games, that's a similar setting to the IDW comics series as well. That's why I think Sonic Prime has more potential in this regard. 

2 hours ago, Shaddy Zaphod said:

I thought you were doing that when you said you were going to sleep a couple hours ago.

Well, I didn't want to continue to answer your post because you were being unnecessarily aggressive. You have you're right to disagree with the things I'm saying. But it's a little nonsense to say things like "your post is stupid". I don't need your approval to have my opinion, and what I post in this forum isn't based on what you think it's worth it. If you think the post is stupid, just move on and go comment on another thread. Or you can disagree and comment without trying to offend me. I'm not trying to prove anything to you.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

19 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

Sonic Forces has performed strongly, but it did as great as always. Sega wanted Sonic to be even more popular. Sega themselves said the main strategy behind Sonic Prime is to strength the franchise. According to your logic, Sega wouldn't have any reason to have this kind of mindset with this project because Sonic is already strong. It's like you are assuming that something popular couldn't be more popular, what doesn't make any sense.

What the actual fuck are you talking about? There is no part of the Sonic series that has a different intent than making Sonic successful and popular. Being successful and popular is and always has been the point of Sonic existing. There is no endgame. He's a corporate mascot. It's what he's for.

19 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

You are failing to understand my point because you are assuming the wrong things about what I mean with worlds like "failed". When I say Boom wasn't successful in reaching this objective, you understand like I'm saying the whole project was a commercial failure, what definitely isn't my point.

I'm not saying that, actually. I'm saying you can't meaningfully distinguish between success and failure when your criteria can't be consistently applied to the rest of the franchise. Your idea of the Boom spinoff having some different "objective" than the rest of Sonic is a fundamental flaw in your argument, and you keep refusing to address it.

19 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

Sonic Boom was a huge marketing effort with similar objectives to Prime now. Sega wanted to introduce Sonic's character and franchise to newer audiences, mostly kids who didn't know Sonic yet. They did the partnership with BigRedButton to develop Sonic Synergy that later became the video game adaptation of Sonic Boom, because they wanted to work with western developers to make Sonic has more appeal to the western market. The main goal of Sonic Boom wasn't only be a successful TV show or a successful spin-off series in the games, was to make Sonic reach another level of popularity, bringing a new audience to the already pre-established fan base the franchise already has. Also, as I said before, it's a common thing for companies to use TV shows or movies in this kind of strategy because TV and movies reach a larger audience, and it's more easy to expose the brand this way.

Exactly what part of being more popular and successful is not the intent of every other Sonic property? They say "we want new fans" with literally every single Sonic game that comes out, including Mania. You're reaching so hard to establish the Boom subseries' goals as something fundamentally different from what every big Sonic game does, and it's not congealing into anything meaningful here.

19 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

Sonic Boom failed to reach this objective because during and after the Boom era, Sonic still continues to have the same level of popularity. The games continue to sell as good as they used to, for example. The Boom TV show was very popular, so was the comic book series, however, for some reason the children watching the TV show didn't go buying the games or other products beyond the Sonic Boom series.

When I said Sonic Boom games sold poorly, I'm bringing this as an evidence that the TV show success wasn't big enough to boost sales of the franchise as a whole, what was the Sega main objective with the project, but it's not only that. The brand popularity as a whole during and after the Boom era it's the strongest evidence. What you aren't understanding is that Sonic Boom didn't want to be only a successful TV show, it wanted to make Sonic more popular than it already was, but it didn't.

Well the next Sonic games to come out sold quite a bit better, and the first of the two was the best-received game in two decades. So no, actually, the series did get more popular. If you want to claim it had nothing to do with the TV show, you'd need some way of proving that.

It seems as if you think there's some popularity threshold SEGA expected that can be objectively measured and which the series can "fail" to meet, but not only do I not expect you to define that, I'm not sure anyone can.

19 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

This isn't the first time Sega tried to reach newer audiences with Sonic's products. Shadow the Hedgehog was a game released aiming to reach a newer, more mature audience compared to games like Sonic Heroes. They followed trends of the western gaming industry at that time. But Shadow the Hedgehog failed to reach this objective. The game sold pretty well, but at the same level of Sonic Heroes and most of the people that bought the games were children, not the target audience they wanted. When I say Shadow the Hedgehog failed to increase the popularity of the series and reach newer audiences, I'm not saying the game wasn't a commercial success, I'm saying it didn't reach the objectives Sega wanted to with the project. It's the same case with Sonic Boom.

Uh-huh, that's some nice personal conjecture, but you don't actually have a way of showing what the "objectives Sega wanted" are or what the criteria for meeting them were.

19 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

Now let's compare Sonic Boom to Sonic X. Sonic X was released with a similar objective than Boom. It was a multimedia marketing effort to increase the popularity of the brand and boost the sales of the games, comics, toys, merchandising and every other product involving Sonic. At that time, Sega abandoned the console business and became a sofhouse, so they want to introduce Sonic to people who didn't previously have Sega consoles and didn't know the series before. Sonic X was very successful in this aspect because it boosted the sales of the games, Sonic was in another level of popularity. There were a lot of kids who started playing Sonic because of the TV show. Sonic Heroes sold way better than expected, and probably Shadow the Hedgehog only sold as good as it did because of Sonic X as well.

Again, how exactly is the success of post-Boom Sonic games not evidence of Boom making Sonic popular, but the success of post-X Sonic games is? Is SatAM a failure because its tie-in game got cancelled? How is anyone supposed to know whether some of the kids buying Mania knew Sonic from the cartoon?

19 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

Again, you are failing to understand that it's not because Sonic is a successful and strong franchise that Sega didn't expect Sonic Boom to make Sonic even more popular. You're also failing to understand that it's not because the games sell well and are popular that Sega doesn't want them to sell even better.

Again, not submitting to your narrative is not a lack of understanding. Most Sonic products are marketed as a big step for the franchise, and every single one of them is made to make money and new fans. They pull out this same spiel every time they release a game.

19 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

As I said before, it's not the first time Sega tried a marketing move trying to make Sonic reach newer audiences. They did the same thing with games like Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic 2006, and even Lost World that was designed to appeal to Nintendo and Mario fans.

Don't forget Sonic 1, 2, 3, Adventure, Adventure 2, Heroes, Secret Rings, Unleashed, Colors and Generations. Also every TV show and comic the series ever produced. They're all made to appeal to new fans. Some of them are made to additionally appeal to old fans, but there's no such thing as a Sonic game that isn't produced for profit and popularity.

19 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

I'm measuring how Sonic Boom was able to increase the popularity of the brand. I'm not measuring if the series were financially successful. I've never said it wasn't.

I never said you're only looking at the financials. I'm saying you're bad at measuring.

19 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

 Maybe Sonic Boom series didn't reach this objective because of the different character designs and settings, maybe the children who watched and enjoyed the show were only interested in the Boom universe, not in the franchise as a whole. Sonic Prime will have the same settings as the games, that's a similar setting to the IDW comics series as well. That's why I think Sonic Prime has more potential in this regard.

"This objective", here meaning "whatever meets my arbitrary definition of more popularity".

19 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

Well, I didn't want to continue to answer your post because you were being unnecessarily aggressive.

It's almost like claiming anyone who disagrees with you "just doesn't understand" isn't an effective way of making them take you seriously or something.

19 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

You have you're right to disagree with the things I'm saying. But it's a little nonsense to say things like "your post is stupid".

Good thing I didn't say that, then. Stupid people are great, hell, I'm stupid!

Your posts, on the other hand are poorly-constructed and lacking in consistency. If I don't think your arguments hold up to scrutiny, I am fully allowed to point this out. That's kind of what discussion is. We're discussing things here.

19 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

I don't need your approval to have my opinion, and what I post in this forum isn't based on what you think it's worth it. If you think the post is stupid, just move on and go comment on another thread. Or you can disagree and comment without trying to offend me. I'm not trying to prove anything to you.

"Trying to offend"? What have I even said? I said your post was bad, I said you were being condescending, and I said you were shifting the blame onto others. All of those three things are still true. Your logic is flawed, there's no way around that. You've shifted positions a couple times now, and the only thing that's remained consistent is your desired conclusion. You are dismissing contrasting arguments as simply "not understanding" while accusing me of saying or believing a bunch of shit that I never even remotely implied. When I've pointed this out, you've treated it as some attack on your character.

There's nothing special about this, dude. I see this online all the damn time. I'm used to it, I'm cool with sticking around for however long I feel like. You are the one making things bigger than just "this guy thinks you're wrong", and that is a thing you can very easily stop doing whenever you like.

[User18091994]

4 hours ago, Shaddy Zaphod said:

Spoiler

 

What the actual fuck are you talking about? There is no part of the Sonic series that has a different intent than making Sonic successful and popular. Being successful and popular is and always has been the point of Sonic existing. There is no endgame. He's a corporate mascot. It's what he's for.

I'm not saying that, actually. I'm saying you can't meaningfully distinguish between success and failure when your criteria can't be consistently applied to the rest of the franchise. Your idea of the Boom spinoff having some different "objective" than the rest of Sonic is a fundamental flaw in your argument, and you keep refusing to address it.

Exactly what part of being more popular and successful is not the intent of every other Sonic property? They say "we want new fans" with literally every single Sonic game that comes out, including Mania. You're reaching so hard to establish the Boom subseries' goals as something fundamentally different from what every big Sonic game does, and it's not congealing into anything meaningful here.

Well the next Sonic games to come out sold quite a bit better, and the first of the two was the best-received game in two decades. So no, actually, the series did get more popular. If you want to claim it had nothing to do with the TV show, you'd need some way of proving that.

It seems as if you think there's some popularity threshold SEGA expected that can be objectively measured and which the series can "fail" to meet, but not only do I not expect you to define that, I'm not sure anyone can.

Uh-huh, that's some nice personal conjecture, but you don't actually have a way of showing what the "objectives Sega wanted" are or what the criteria for meeting them were.

Again, how exactly is the success of post-Boom Sonic games not evidence of Boom making Sonic popular, but the success of post-X Sonic games is? Is SatAM a failure because its tie-in game got cancelled? How is anyone supposed to know whether some of the kids buying Mania knew Sonic from the cartoon?

Again, not submitting to your narrative is not a lack of understanding. Most Sonic products are marketed as a big step for the franchise, and every single one of them is made to make money and new fans. They pull out this same spiel every time they release a game.

Don't forget Sonic 1, 2, 3, Adventure, Adventure 2, Heroes, Secret Rings, Unleashed, Colors and Generations. Also every TV show and comic the series ever produced. They're all made to appeal to new fans. Some of them are made to additionally appeal to old fans, but there's no such thing as a Sonic game that isn't produced for profit and popularity.

I never said you're only looking at the financials. I'm saying you're bad at measuring.

"This objective", here meaning "whatever meets my arbitrary definition of more popularity".

It's almost like claiming anyone who disagrees with you "just doesn't understand" isn't an effective way of making them take you seriously or something.

Good thing I didn't say that, then. Stupid people are great, hell, I'm stupid!

Your posts, on the other hand are poorly-constructed and lacking in consistency. If I don't think your arguments hold up to scrutiny, I am fully allowed to point this out. That's kind of what discussion is. We're discussing things here.

"Trying to offend"? What have I even said? I said your post was bad, I said you were being condescending, and I said you were shifting the blame onto others. All of those three things are still true. Your logic is flawed, there's no way around that. You've shifted positions a couple times now, and the only thing that's remained consistent is your desired conclusion. You are dismissing contrasting arguments as simply "not understanding" while accusing me of saying or believing a bunch of shit that I never even remotely implied. When I've pointed this out, you've treated it as some attack on your character.

There's nothing special about this, dude. I see this online all the damn time. I'm used to it, I'm cool with sticking around for however long I feel like. You are the one making things bigger than just "this guy thinks you're wrong", and that is a thing you can very easily stop doing whenever you like.

 

 

Sonic Mania didn't sell better than Sonic games always sells. According to Sega Mania sold about 1 million copies. There are modern Sonic games with higher sales numbers.

"Blablabla your post is bad, blablabla your post is poorly constructed"

Ok, good for you. And I think your answers are bad. Are you finished?

It's funny how you keep attacking me only because you don't agree with my post, accusing me of saying things that has nothing to do with my point and when I say you misread my arguments: "uhh, you are gaslighting me". And you are repeating the same thing over and over again.

If the only thing you have to add in this discussion is how you think my post is bad and "poorly constructed", I've already understood that and I don't care, just move one, dude.

 

[Shaddy Zaphod]

8 hours ago, Raphael Martins said:

Sonic Mania didn't sell better than Sonic games always sells. According to Sega Mania sold about 1 million copies. There are modern Sonic games with higher sales numbers.

I didn't say it was the best selling Sonic game in existence, just that it had been doing better than recent Sonic games.

8 hours ago, Raphael Martins said:

"Blablabla your post is bad, blablabla your post is poorly constructed"

Ok, good for you. And I think your answers are bad. Are you finished?

Well, that's up to you. If you don't want me to critique your arguments, all you have to do is make better ones. This hostility to discussion really isn't a good look.

8 hours ago, Raphael Martins said:

It's funny how you keep attacking me only because you don't agree with my post, accusing me of saying things that has nothing to do with my point

Again, I'm not attacking you. Nothing I've said here is some personal judgement of your character, but your behavior has been to make an argument I don't think is very good, claim that my disagreeing is just me "not understanding", and treating it as an attack on your character when I point that out.

I don't really know what you wanted from this if you're going to be this hostile to people responding. All I was doing was pointing out flaws in your rhetoric, but you are choosing to take this personally.

8 hours ago, Raphael Martins said:

and when I say you misread my arguments: "uhh, you are gaslighting me". And you are repeating the same thing over and over again.

I repeat myself because you are responding to arguments I am not making. It must be five or six times by now that you've said "here's what you believe, and here's why it's wrong" and then said something that I do not and have never even remotely implied to have believed.

8 hours ago, Raphael Martins said:

If the only thing you have to add in this discussion is how you think my post is bad and "poorly constructed", I've already understood that and I don't care, just move one, dude.

There's been plenty of discussion to go off of here, you have chosen to ignore it in favor of making up beliefs for me and arguing against those instead.

[KnuxDLX]

Hopefully Prime torches Boom and runs with what Sonic X was trying to do.