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Sonic Forces was inevitable


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1 hour ago, Raphael Martins said:

Well, I'm not talking only about Eggman, I'm talking about how Sonic Unleashed balance the sense of adventure, challenge, dramatic and serious moments compared to the meta-era games (like Colors). If Sonic Unleashed is the same as Colors only because you think Eggmanland and the space Amusement Park is the same thing, we have to assume Sonic Adventure is the same thing as Sonic Colors because in the Adventure 1 Eggman said in some cutscenes that he want to build "Robotinikland". Does this assumption make sense? No.

That is a point of comparison that I made, yes. I continued that line of comparison by making other points after that, with the intent of showing that both games had real stakes from a plot perspective.

If your takeaway from my post is that I was saying "Unleashed is like Colors because they both have Eggman amusement parks," that wasn't what I was saying.

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Scritch the Cat

Lots of fans have been saying they want to play as Tails and Knuckles again in main games ever since they’ve been taken out; SEGA has yet to listen.  I’m really not buying that they listen at all given they act like their general impression of the fandom is that they hate playing as anyone who isn’t Sonic.  Also it isn’t surprising that more ambitious games don’t get praised when they are in themselves not that good and rest on questionable ideas.

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User18091994
27 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

That is a point of comparison that I made, yes. I continued that line of comparison by making other points after that, with the intent of showing that both games had real stakes from a plot perspective.

If your takeaway from my post is that I was saying "Unleashed is like Colors because they both have Eggman amusement parks," that wasn't what I was saying.

Well, so I don't understand your point at all. What are you trying to say? Are you saying Unleashed's story doesn't have a better sense of adventure, better epic moments and better characterization than Colors?

I'm sorry, but I don't agree that Sonic Unleashed's story is at the same level of Colors at all. Watching Unleashed's cutscenes it's like watching a Pixar movie, it's a light-hearted story written for children, but that can also be enjoyable for people of all ages. I see a story that has emotional and epic moments, a good sense of adventure.

When I watch Sonic Colors cutscenes, I feel like I'm watching a discovery kids TV show written for 6-year-old children, Sonic it's a bad humorist that tells horrible jokes all the time and didn't even seem to have the same personality as he had on Unleashed.

If you think the stories are the same thing, I don't know what else I can say to you.

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Hilariously enough, Sonic Unleashed was the last game in the series that really gave me the impression I was watching a bad TV show for children. Probably because I was still a teenager when it came out, and I thought Chip was SUPER annoying. Colors and beyond had their moments too, but I've always thought RCS's Sonic was more natural. He's lame on occasion, but he's endearingly lame. And his cocky attitude and impatience fits what I expect out of Sonic way better than the "dark age" (which I agree, runs most prominently from Heroes to 06) did.

Again though, I think some of this just comes down to me growing past the age where I'd "cringe" at kiddie stuff. I was a teen for Unleashed, but a more self-assured college dude for Colors.

It'll be interesting to play Unleashed again as an adult, whenever I get around to it. I bet I'll like it more now than I did then.

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1 minute ago, SonicBoom said:

Hilariously enough, Sonic Unleashed was the last game in the series that really gave me the impression I was watching a bad TV show for children. Probably because I was still a teenager when it came out, and I thought Chip was SUPER annoying. Colors and beyond had their moments too, but I've always thought RCS's Sonic was more natural. He's lame on occasion, but he's endearingly lame. And his cocky attitude and impatience fits what I expect out of Sonic way better than the "dark age" (which I agree, runs most prominently from Heroes to 06) did.

Again though, I think some of this just comes down to me growing past the age where I'd "cringe" at kiddie stuff. I was a teen for Unleashed, but a more self-assured college dude for Colors.

It'll be interesting to play Unleashed again as an adult, whenever I get around to it. I bet I'll like it more now than I did then.

I didn't like Chip in the beginning, but during the game I started liking him and think the end is very emotional. I think the end of the game was so epic that make all the journey so much better. I love Sonic Colors, it is one of my favorite 3D Sonic games, I only think the story is pretty lacking and the ending feels empty. While in Unleashed we have a very challenging and epic ending sequence, in Colors we only have an easy stage that's a corridor and an easy final boss battle.

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16 hours ago, Raphael Martins said:

If you think the stories are the same thing, I don't know what else I can say to you.

I said they're similar, not the same thing. I understand that the games are different, and even described those differences earlier. It's clear from my posts that I don't think they're the same thing.

Now, I would argue that Unleashed has more in common with the 2010s games than it does with the early 2000s games - in terms of both its gameplay and writing. it's clear that Unleashed was the start of Sonic Team focusing on a smaller cast of characters with more of an emphasis on humor. The writers from Colors onward employed a different kind of humor, but Unleashed still laid the groundwork for that.

In 2008 Sonic Team was already making a conscious shift away from the types of stories that defined what people are now calling the "dark age." I would hazard a guess that the main point of contention many have Colors' writing has little to do with the premise (i.e. Eggman using a space amusement park to capture aliens and mind-control the planet) and more to do with the framing of this premise (i.e. an arguable lack of urgency, barely any focus given to the mind control plot to establish the stakes, dissatisfaction with the types of jokes used, etc.).

 

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User18091994
2 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I said they're similar, not the same thing. I understand that the games are different, and even described those differences earlier. It's clear from my posts that I don't think they're the same thing.

Now, I would argue that Unleashed has more in common with the 2010s games than it does with the early 2000s games - in terms of both its gameplay and writing. it's clear that Unleashed was the start of Sonic Team focusing on a smaller cast of characters with more of an emphasis on humor. The writers from Colors onward employed a different kind of humor, but Unleashed still laid the groundwork for that.

In 2008 Sonic Team was already making a conscious shift away from the types of stories that defined what people are now calling the "dark age." I would hazard a guess that the main point of contention many have Colors' writing has little to do with the premise (i.e. Eggman using a space amusement park to capture aliens and mind-control the planet) and more to do with the framing of this premise (i.e. an arguable lack of urgency, barely any focus given to the mind control plot to establish the stakes, dissatisfaction with the types of jokes used, etc.).

 

 

2 hours ago, KHCast said:

Unleashed had funny moments, but I don’t think it had an emphasis on its humor.


Yeah, I don't think Sonic Unleashed had too much emphasis on humor, either. Most of the cutscenes aren't focused on humor. When it comes to Colors, almost every cutscene in the game is about jokes. Again, I don't see too much difference between Unleashed, Black Knight and Secret Rings. Both Black Knight and Secret Rings had comic moments at the same level and quantity as Unleashed.

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For me, it's not just a question of quantity, but how it's handled, and how things are taken (how Chip and characters like Pickles are handled kinda show that). ( Though even as a quantity, I feel there is kinda more in Unleashed, especially during the whole middle segment.)

But "tone" isn't based on quantity, balance and stuff like that. These word are talking about quantitative things, when the tone is qualitative. How things are handled in Unleashed, how things are handled in previous and subsequent game is IMO way more an indication of what they are trying to do. Sonic Colors have kinda upped the cursor… but the vision was already here in Unleashed. Though it doesn't mean that Unleashed is bad. Just that it had a certain vision that changed compared to previous game (and TBH : a better humor than some previous game, like Riders')

What make Unleashed vision of how it is kinda of an "action comedy" good isn't how much there is humor, how much there isn't : it's how its humor and its more serious moment (as like an Adventure game can have humorous moment, Unleashed have an humoristic vision of its universe, with serious moment) constructed together their stories. That's what makes Unleashed story better than Forces, for instance (where both side kinda fight each other, and it doesn't helps that some humor moments and some "serious" moment are kinda low-quality, especially moments such as the "torture" thingy or "none of this is good". Tho there is one good humor moment that construct the story, when Sonic troll infinite with dumb question before saying his true question) as in Unleashed it really create the vision of the characters, its world (which is "funny cartoony earth").

Moreover, Sonic Unleashed being an "epic stories" isn't incompatible with Sonic Unleashed being written as humorous in its very conception. You can create an entirely epic story while writing a comedy. It's even possible to make epic story within a PARODY, for instance Pratchett's Discworld is full of that (NB : I'm not saying that Unleashed is a parody tho 😛 I'm just taking an extreme exemple to show more how the two are differents). And it's because every part works together (which manage to negate some of its problems, like its weak second act). The division between "epic stories" and "humorous" is a wrong one imo.

Sonic Unleashed have an humoristic vision in its writing WHILE having an epic, "bigger than you" story. Just it's on a funny earth universe, with humorous and colored characters that do dumb stuff, in a more lighthearted ambiance. But it managed - as you said - to also convey sensation of epicness with a fantastic intro, ending. And by building a relationship with its character (which is one of its "weak point" for some if we don't like Chip, our entire experience won't be as good. I love this cute god dumbass, so I loved Unleashed XD). Unleashed do things differently than the Adventure. And that's what make its and the Adventure's worth : Each have their vision of how they have to take their story. And manage to inject a lot of fun in it, and create fantastic experiences.

And that both Colors and Unleashed have a comedic vision won't mean it's the same type of story : the comedy elements are entirely different, how they handle the story elements too, the writing style of Pontaff is really different than the one of Kiyoko Yoshimura. Having a ressemblance in a core elements doesn't way that both stories will ressemble each other. In a way, Pratchett's Discworld is a parody, and SpaceBalls too. They both are kinda different.

And that's where Pontaff work is kinda weak for me. Not just because of "tone". But sometimes it looks like their writing fight what the stories want to tell. Most often it's the joke that fight the more serious elements, but sometimes it's their cringey handling of their serious elements that fight what the story will tell.

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Scritch the Cat
On 8/23/2021 at 9:53 PM, Dr. Mechano said:

I think these two ideas are diametrically opposed.

Because the classics had stories that mattered. The Genesis trilogy told a coherent narrative that spanned multiple games and organically introduced new characters along the way. The storytelling in these games was simple, but I'd argue it still managed to be more character-driven than most 2D platformers of the time, featuring cutscenes and even dynamic characters - such as Knuckles starting off as an enemy before becoming an ally. The classic Sonic games handled story a lot better than people give them credit for.

Meanwhile, I'd argue that Sonic Team themselves gave up on telling "stories that matter" when they made Shadow the Hedgehog, a game that spits on the legacy of Sonic Adventure 2 with ridiculous retcons and can't even maintain moment-to-moment continuity in-game (i.e. you'll help a character in a stage, then they'll flip out and yell at you as if you were their enemy all along immediately afterward). Add its tone that tries to be dark but only ends up coming off as awkward and forced, and you've got a mid-2000s Sonic story that I'm able to take far less seriously than anything in the more comical games of the 2010s. Sonic 06 largely followed the same path, with its hackneyed dialogue and bizarre tonal issues.

Which brings us back to Sonic Forces - a game that embraces much of the same writing direction as those mid-2000s titles. A game where Eggman tortures Sonic for months and Shadow kills a bunch of jackals. It's ridiculous.

The problem was never "stories that mattered." The problem was this swath of horribly-written Sonic games that demanded to be taken seriously without earning that emotional investment through any sort of skill at storytelling. Fans complained because the stories were bad, not because they dared to tackle darker subject matters. Adventure and Adventure 2 were still looked upon fondly even as fans ripped Shadow and Sonic 06 to shreds, because those games - while they dabbled in some serious themes - didn't go so far overboard that it felt like self-parody.

You make a good point about the classic trilogy vs Shadow the Hedgehog, and I do think the original post's entire thesis is wrong, but I think if there was a story trend in the span from Sonic Adventure to Sonic Unleashed that objectively annoyed some people, it was in how what was going on wasn't even clear until after you'd played through them, or near enough.  Sure; it's common for the resolutions of plots to be a surprise but those games threw players into messes of current events where shit was going down, giving little tidbits of backstory explaining why as you played and requiring you to play multiple different stories to gather them all and piece them together. 

This is tied to another problem; those games were way too Lovecraftian.  It's really difficult to do cosmic entities as villains; so difficult in fact that I'd risk wide derision by saying even Lovecraft himself didn't really nail it most of the time.  There are many problems with them, but one of the key problems is that after the first time you do it, you've burnt out a lot of the appeal for the next time.  You might find Iblis more interesting looking than Perfect Chaos, but the story beats you'll go through to meet it will be too reminiscent of those you went through on the way to Perfect Chaos; somehow even when the plot doesn't really make sense until after the fact, nothing really feels like a twist.  After a few too many games, you know that all of that new lore is only building to another fight between Sonic/Shadow/Silver and another legendary kaiju, and after that fight you'll scarcely ever hear from the kaiju or its associated lore ever again--and yes, the Pokemon series also suffers terribly from this problem.

So do these stories really matter?  In the long run, I'd say no.  They provide a pretext for characters to bond and bounce quips off of each other, but about the only things that endure after their ending are the allies they add to the cast, even if their own original lore gives them ample reason to leave.  As much as people despise Pontac and Graff's nonchalant approach to Sonic and their lack of quality control when it comes to jokes, I'm not all that mad that games stopped trying to establish some epic backstory when people have become numb to such.

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I dunno, I feel like Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Generations still have that basic "Monster of the week' structure. The Nega Mother Wisp makes me think Sonic Colors was originally supposed to do that too, but it was cut. I've seen people say that Eggman being the final boss was refreshing, but I don't think propping up Dr. Eggman again was worth the corruption plot they set up going nowhere outside of the DS version.

Which..kinda relates to another point. These games are presented with the same grandiose scale as before, but a lot of the characters, twists and wrinkles that would make the middle parts of the game interesting have been cut clean out without being replaced with anything. Sonic Unleashed, Colors and Generations are all games where the stage is set well and the kick-off is strong...only for Sonic to go to every zone and get to the temple/chain/chaos emerald without any resistance. This is pretty obviously a worse story than the right hook a development like Merlina presents, or us learning that there was more to Chaos than being a mindless monster all along. Sure, you "Didn't know that was going to happen" until you finished the game but...that's ideally how stories work. There are some wrinkles hidden throughout, some plot twists that re-contextualizes things, maybe another character's perspective is seen later and puts a situation we thought we knew on it's head etc. This isn't to say Black Knight is riveting stuff, just that it functions in a way that the boost trilogy doesn't.

I want to make a bigger topic about this at some point, but I think the revulsion for 2000s Sonic has gotten so absurd that Sonic fans accidentally end up arguing against basic competence trying to get at those stories. It's really wild to me because you can just say you prefer Sonic Colors as a game without sticking your neck out for it's bad story and it'd be a completely valid position to take. You spend 98% of your time with a Sonic game in gameplay anyway, so the story literally just doesn't matter that much by comparison. Just point out that Sonic doesn't fall through the floor anymore and you're golden.

 

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1 hour ago, Wraith said:

I dunno, I feel like Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Generations still have that basic "Monster of the week' structure. The Nega Mother Wisp makes me think Sonic Colors was originally supposed to do that too, but it was cut. I've seen people say that Eggman being the final boss was refreshing, but I don't think propping up Dr. Eggman again was worth the corruption plot they set up going nowhere outside of the DS version.
 

Well, even in the DS version, I think it's fair to say that Eggman was still the main antagonist. The Mother Wisp was a victim who'd simply gone berserk - and she doesn't even upend Eggman's plans or anything. Sonic defeats Eggman, and the Mother Wisp is still left in her corrupted state after that defeat.

The "canon" sequence of events is probably a mix of the two games. Sonic did defeat Eggman, and then cleaned up after him by freeing the Mother Wisp afterward. (Also, Sonic's friends were in the park and helped out along the way) Regardless of how many people he fought or who was fought last, though, Eggman is still the "main villain" of both games, and of the Sonic Colors story as a whole.

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User18091994
8 hours ago, Wraith said:
Spoiler

 

I dunno, I feel like Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Generations still have that basic "Monster of the week' structure. The Nega Mother Wisp makes me think Sonic Colors was originally supposed to do that too, but it was cut. I've seen people say that Eggman being the final boss was refreshing, but I don't think propping up Dr. Eggman again was worth the corruption plot they set up going nowhere outside of the DS version.

Which..kinda relates to another point. These games are presented with the same grandiose scale as before, but a lot of the characters, twists and wrinkles that would make the middle parts of the game interesting have been cut clean out without being replaced with anything. Sonic Unleashed, Colors and Generations are all games where the stage is set well and the kick-off is strong...only for Sonic to go to every zone and get to the temple/chain/chaos emerald without any resistance. This is pretty obviously a worse story than the right hook a development like Merlina presents, or us learning that there was more to Chaos than being a mindless monster all along. Sure, you "Didn't know that was going to happen" until you finished the game but...that's ideally how stories work. There are some wrinkles hidden throughout, some plot twists that re-contextualizes things, maybe another character's perspective is seen later and puts a situation we thought we knew on it's head etc. This isn't to say Black Knight is riveting stuff, just that it functions in a way that the boost trilogy doesn't.

I want to make a bigger topic about this at some point, but I think the revulsion for 2000s Sonic has gotten so absurd that Sonic fans accidentally end up arguing against basic competence trying to get at those stories. It's really wild to me because you can just say you prefer Sonic Colors as a game without sticking your neck out for it's bad story and it'd be a completely valid position to take. You spend 98% of your time with a Sonic game in gameplay anyway, so the story literally just doesn't matter that much by comparison. Just point out that Sonic doesn't fall through the floor anymore and you're golden.

 



 

 

6 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:
Spoiler

 

Well, even in the DS version, I think it's fair to say that Eggman was still the main antagonist. The Mother Wisp was a victim who'd simply gone berserk - and she doesn't even upend Eggman's plans or anything. Sonic defeats Eggman, and the Mother Wisp is still left in her corrupted state after that defeat.

The "canon" sequence of events is probably a mix of the two games. Sonic did defeat Eggman, and then cleaned up after him by freeing the Mother Wisp afterward. (Also, Sonic's friends were in the park and helped out along the way) Regardless of how many people he fought or who was fought last, though, Eggman is still the "main villain" of both games, and of the Sonic Colors story as a whole.

 

 

To be fair, I think at that time the Sonic series was becoming a mess in terms of lore and storytelling because almost every single mainline game was introducing more playable characters, and it felt like Sonic Team needed to put all these characters in the story and gameplay. This was taking the focus of Sonic as the main character and the core fast-paced platforming gameplay style. So, I think Unleashed was a good change of pace in this regard. I like to see other beloved characters in the games, but I don't think it's a good idea to put all characters in every game trying to please everyone.

I only don't understand why you guys don't want to give Secret Rings the credit of being the first home console game with this approach. Because you keep saying that Sonic Unleashed was the first game with this kind of storytelling when Unleashed clearly follows the Secret Rings formula, a game released before.

Similarities between Secret Rings and Unleashed:

- Both games have Sonic as the only playable character
- Both games introduced a new character as Sonic's sidekick during the Adventure (Shahra on Secret Rings, Chip on Unleashed)
- Both stories have similar tone and similar balance between comic moments and adventure

- In both games, Sonic has the same design, in contrast to the more realistic design of Sonic 2006.

I don't think Unleashed's storytelling has anything to do with Colors. I would group the stories of the games this way:
 

- Serious stories, but that didn't go too far in this aspect:
Sonic Adventure 1 & 2

- Light-hearted stories with a clear contrast compared to the Adventure era
Sonic Heroes, Sonic Riders, the Advanced series, etc.

- Serious stories with the darkest tones so far following trends of the western market at that time:
Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic 2006

- Light-hearted and more self-contained stories, but that still had a more focus on adventure
Secret Rings, Unleashed, Black Knight

- Light-hearted stories with a totally different characterization for Sonic and much more focus on comedy
Sonic Colors, Sonic Generations, Sonic Lost World

Sonic Forces tried to be more dark, but still has a very similar storytelling to Colors and Lost World, so I don't think where I put it.

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Unleashed and Colors have way more in common with eachother than anything else. I honestly think Unleashed only escapes scrutiny because of some initial angst in the first third.  The whole refocusing on the characters standing around and talking and the newfound emphasis on humor started there. The dialogue is better, and the oppurtunities to actually explore the world in-game make the sense of exploration a lot stronger...but I don't really think that absolves the story of it's issues. The visual gags with chip are great as is some of the stuff you get with the NPCs, and they don't hang on the verbal gags for too long either. Still though...it wrote the book for Colors. There's no denying that. The basic structure is the same. Yacker is meant to just be a passive version of chip after chip failed to endear anybody. The way the game kind of shuts off in the middle part only to try(and fail imo) to create tension toward the end is similar. If they got to fit in their fight with a giant purple kaiju I think more people would notice.

Secret Rings has a lot more twists and turns to it's narrative. Cutscenes are usually focused on action or moving the plot forward with new information. The "putting a timer on Sonic's life" angle keeps the tension higher than the minor inconveniences the werehog created etc.

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User18091994
2 hours ago, Wraith said:

Unleashed and Colors have way more in common with eachother than anything else. I honestly think Unleashed only escapes scrutiny because of some initial angst in the first third.  The whole refocusing on the characters standing around and talking and the newfound emphasis on humor started there. The dialogue is better, and the oppurtunities to actually explore the world in-game make the sense of exploration a lot stronger...but I don't really think that absolves the story of it's issues. The visual gags with chip are great as is some of the stuff you get with the NPCs, and they don't hang on the verbal gags for too long either. Still though...it wrote the book for Colors. There's no denying that. The basic structure is the same. Yacker is meant to just be a passive version of chip after chip failed to endear anybody. The way the game kind of shuts off in the middle part only to try(and fail imo) to create tension toward the end is similar. If they got to fit in their fight with a giant purple kaiju I think more people would notice.

Secret Rings has a lot more twists and turns to it's narrative. Cutscenes are usually focused on action or moving the plot forward with new information. The "putting a timer on Sonic's life" angle keeps the tension higher than the minor inconveniences the werehog created etc.

Nah, I still don't agree. There's a lot of Unleashed cutscenes focused on action. Most of Sonic Unleashed cutscenes aren't focused on humor. Also, there are cutscenes on Secret Rings focused on humor and Sonic even tells jokes. So I don't see this difference between Unleashed and Secret Rings.

The only thing I agree is that Unleashed's story isn't as active as Secret Rings. There are times that we are only going to one country to another. But I never had a problem with it. I think the pacing of Sonic Unleashed's story is very good because it matches the whole concept of traveling around the world. I like that the story isn't intrusive, we already know we need to do, restore the continents. I don't see a problem with the game not focusing on the story all the time.

Secret Rings has a bigger sense of urgency because of the curse, but I think this has more things to do with the structure of the game, than with the tone of the story. Sonic Adventurer 1 and 2 are very different in this aspect as well. Sonic Adventure 2 has a bigger sense of urgency, the story has a faster pacing compared to Adventure 1, but Adventure 2 doesn't have hub worlds and I think this pacing fits better the structure of the game.

When it comes to the meta era games, Sonic Lost World's story has a few twists here and there. Eggman lost the control over the deadly six, Tails is kidnapped, etc etc, and Lost World has action cutscenes. But I don't think the tone of Lost World is more close to games like Secret Rings than Colors or Generations only because the story has a faster pacing. I think pacing and tone are two totally different things.

And we also need to consider that everyone of us has different feelings about the stories because I don't have problem with Sonic Colors being more self-contained, with the story doesn't having a faster pacing, being more light-hearted, etc, etc. I have a problem with Sonic's characterization, with the lack of epic moments and a better sense of Adventure. Sonic Unleashed has all of this aspects, so I think it's a better story.

Maybe not every single Sonic game needs to have the same pacing and structure as Unleashed, but what matter is that I think it works in the game.

Is Sonic Unleashed story perfect? Probably not, but it's one the best in terms of execution. I love Secret Rings' story, but there are a few inconsistencies, Sonic Adventure 2 has some plot holes, Adventure 1 has cringe dialogues and Sonic's characterization was a little off. The thing is, Sonic games aren't masterpieces in terms of story and I don't think they need to be.

The Legend of Zelda is a franchise that has very simple and sometimes even cliché stories, but they work most of the time and they give the games a good sense of Adventure. It's the same thing about Sonic to me.

 

 

 

 

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It's possible to justify all the little things. But ultimately, it's really up to the individuals/crowd to decide if they liked it overall. There is nothing wrong with people thinking that they had a more satisfied experience with the older games, no matter the reason (and vice-versa).

Over the years, people want and value different things in this series now. And it's pretty normal with long franchises.

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User18091994
On 8/27/2021 at 5:38 PM, FlameStream said:

It's possible to justify all the little things. But ultimately, it's really up to the individuals/crowd to decide if they liked it overall. There is nothing wrong with people thinking that they had a more satisfied experience with the older games, no matter the reason (and vice-versa).

Over the years, people want and value different things in this series now. And it's pretty normal with long franchises.

To be fair, I enjoy most meta-era Sonic games. I enjoy Sonic Colors, it is one of my favorite games. I don't like Sonic Generations that much despite the amazing level design, but I played and not regret buying it. Not only that, but I even like Sonic Lost World that I complete 100% more than one time, I know that's an unpopular opinion, but I had a lot of fun playing it. The only mainline recent Sonic game I was more disappointed about was Sonic Forces because the games is too unoriginal, easy, the level design is uninspired, and the other problems that everyone knows. However, I still think it was a decent experience and I don't regret buying either.

I miss elements from older games, like better writing, more passion, more ambition. But I think most of the recent games were good despite all of that. There were still things to enjoy (at least for me).

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I wouldn't say that there is less "passion" in most recent game. I mean, Sonic Generations got a whole lot of works on smaller details, Sonic Colors have fantastic inspiration for its design. It's not because stories are simpler and more "funny" that there is no passion in a game. Even Forces with all its problem had certainly had a lot of passion, and certainly ambition (ambition that might have been cut short by what they could do)

It's difficult for external people to judge the ambition and the passion of people we don't see.

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15 hours ago, Raphael Martins said:

I miss elements from older games, like better writing, more passion, more ambition. But I think most of the recent games were good despite all of that. There were still things to enjoy (at least for me).

So I want to ask, when it comes to story, is it Colors' premise or its execution (or both?) that you thought was lacking?

Like, are you okay with the basic idea of Colors on paper (that is, Eggman as the main villain, using a space theme park to capture aliens and use their energy to mind control the world), and would just rather the framing of that premise took itself a bit more seriously?

Or is the entire concept itself disappointing? Some fans who prefer the dark-age games tend to think of Eggman as inherently less compelling than the various giant monsters of the 2000s (an opinion I certainly don't agree with), so I'm just trying to feel out what you think about it.

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User18091994
10 hours ago, Kazhnuz said:

I wouldn't say that there is less "passion" in most recent game. I mean, Sonic Generations got a whole lot of works on smaller details, Sonic Colors have fantastic inspiration for its design. It's not because stories are simpler and more "funny" that there is no passion in a game. Even Forces with all its problem had certainly had a lot of passion, and certainly ambition (ambition that might have been cut short by what they could do)

It's difficult for external people to judge the ambition and the passion of people we don't see.

Sonic Colors was the last truly original mainline Sonic game. I don't think Sonic Forces has passion at all. It's the first game that comes to my mind when I think in lack of passion and be ambition in recent Sonic games.

10 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

So I want to ask, when it comes to story, is it Colors' premise or its execution (or both?) that you thought was lacking?

Like, are you okay with the basic idea of Colors on paper (that is, Eggman as the main villain, using a space theme park to capture aliens and use their energy to mind control the world), and would just rather the framing of that premise took itself a bit more seriously?

Or is the entire concept itself disappointing? Some fans who prefer the dark-age games tend to think of Eggman as inherently less compelling than the various giant monsters of the 2000s (an opinion I certainly don't agree with), so I'm just trying to feel out what you think about it.

My problem with Sonic Colors mostly is Sonic characterization, the way he tells bad jokes all the time and acts like he has a totally different personaliy compared to previous games. The basic premise of the story is okay, but the dialogue and the cutscenes are awful.

But after Colors, the stories got a lot worse. Sonic Generations' story is almost non-existent, Sonic Lost World is lacking in a lot of other areas, there were no context to the stage environments, for example, no explanation about what the Lost Hex is, who are the Deadly Six, and other thing that I already said before. When it comes to Sonic Forces, is the same bad writing as Lost World, but trying to be dark.

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1 hour ago, Raphael Martins said:

But after Colors, the stories got a lot worse. Sonic Generations' story is almost non-existent, Sonic Lost World is lacking in a lot of other areas, there were no context to the stage environments, for example, no explanation about what the Lost Hex is, who are the Deadly Six, and other thing that I already said before. When it comes to Sonic Forces, is the same bad writing as Lost World, but trying to be dark.

Honestly? Despite me slightly leaning more toward comedy in the series than you, I actually agree with most of these criticisms. 

Yeah, I certainly wouldn't have minded more (or at least better) exposition in Lost World. Mind you, I liked a lot of things about SLW. Sonic's truce with Eggman gave the two a lot of fun character interaction, and I even think the Deadly Six have the basic building blocks of fun villains; I just wish they'd been slightly less one-note. Add somewhat better contextualization for them and their strange little world, and I think it'd have been fine. (Also change how Tails was written, good lord, he was bad in that game.) But yeah, I feel like - as an Eggman fan - Eggman's great characterization in this game does a lot of heavy lifting to make me overlook some of SLW's weaker points. I can certainly agree that those points could still be improved upon, though.

I feel like Forces needed a lot of work beyond just that. Dark elements are fine, but I feel like Tails's spiral into despair and Sonic's alleged six-month torture session feel weirdly out of place in the series. I also feel like they absolutely squandered the premise of Eggman finally taking over the world. The actual conquest takes place off-screen, and the empire itself is just a bunch of wildfires and sand everywhere, when it isn't boring plain white buildings. Where are all the Eggman statues? The bright chintzy neon cities with Eggman's face on every other building? Actual citizens of the Eggman Empire shown living under the doctor's autocratic rule? For such a monumental event, Eggman's world domination is treated with virtually no gravity, and - if you took out a line here and there - one would be forgiven for mistaking Forces for another bog-standard "Eggman's trying to take over the world" story.

For Generations, though? I feel like that's one game that can afford to have a pretty bare-bones story. "Sonic teams up with his past self to beat Eggman and his past self, and they travel through a bunch of iconic levels from the franchise's past" is kind of a perfect simple story for a big anniversary celebration. Like, maybe bring in more classic-era characters like Knuckles and Amy? I'd even be for allowing classic Sonic to talk, since Sonic did sometimes talk in the classic games. But other than those minor things, I feel like Generations is just one of those special games that's just fine having this really abstract "video gamey" story.

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User18091994
7 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Honestly? Despite me slightly leaning more toward comedy in the series than you, I actually agree with most of these criticisms. 

Yeah, I certainly wouldn't have minded more (or at least better) exposition in Lost World. Mind you, I liked a lot of things about SLW. Sonic's truce with Eggman gave the two a lot of fun character interaction, and I even think the Deadly Six have the basic building blocks of fun villains; I just wish they'd been slightly less one-note. Add somewhat better contextualization for them and their strange little world, and I think it'd have been fine. (Also change how Tails was written, good lord, he was bad in that game.) But yeah, I feel like - as an Eggman fan - Eggman's great characterization in this game does a lot of heavy lifting to make me overlook some of SLW's weaker points. I can certainly agree that those points could still be improved upon, though.

I feel like Forces needed a lot of work beyond just that. Dark elements are fine, but I feel like Tails's spiral into despair and Sonic's alleged six-month torture session feel weirdly out of place in the series. I also feel like they absolutely squandered the premise of Eggman finally taking over the world. The actual conquest takes place off-screen, and the empire itself is just a bunch of wildfires and sand everywhere, when it isn't boring plain white buildings. Where are all the Eggman statues? The bright chintzy neon cities with Eggman's face on every other building? Actual citizens of the Eggman Empire shown living under the doctor's autocratic rule? For such a monumental event, Eggman's world domination is treated with virtually no gravity, and - if you took out a line here and there - one would be forgiven for mistaking Forces for another bog-standard "Eggman's trying to take over the world" story.

For Generations, though? I feel like that's one game that can afford to have a pretty bare-bones story. "Sonic teams up with his past self to beat Eggman and his past self, and they travel through a bunch of iconic levels from the franchise's past" is kind of a perfect simple story for a big anniversary celebration. Like, maybe bring in more classic-era characters like Knuckles and Amy? I'd even be for allowing classic Sonic to talk, since Sonic did sometimes talk in the classic games. But other than those minor things, I feel like Generations is just one of those special games that's just fine having this really abstract "video gamey" story.

I like some elements of SLW as well, but I think the writing of the game has more flaws than Sonic Colors

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If I were to simplify, what I feel has been missing in quite a little while is engagement and stakes. A lot of the times, events are simply stated or happening in short bursts, making it hard to digest and, quite bluntly, care about what's happening, no matter what it is. I understand that it's a little hard to create something people would care in 7 stages and intermissions in between. So I'm hoping that the new direction will make it easier to enhance that part of the experience.

I like scenes that are meant to make you smile or laugh like any other person, but I find it best when it's a subtle insert. A bit of boke/tsukkomi that's well placed feel much more effective to lighten up the mood than cracking (forced) jokes. The former also doesn't make it seem that the characters are acting too out of context considering the situation a lot of the time.

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