Theorizing about the Sonic's two world controversy [Games' lore discussion]

[User18091994]

11 hours ago, Kazhnuz said:

Spoiler

It's more decision than laziness. It's not just "oh we didn't want because we had aqua-poney", it's more that they prefered to focus on other section. I mean, Sonic Channel know that they know their own lore, and Pontaff aren't the one making the stories. And basically, 2W isn't laziness, it's even more work that just not caring would do xD

The fact that they got out of they way to tell it's like that, seemingly thought about how characters travel from, and created restriction based on that, simply because there where a discrepency between the Adventure and some early canon (and thus the vision of a lot of fans about what was the Sonic Universe) show that it's not a question of laziness. Had they be lazy and not caring, we wouldn't be having all this debate.

Even if it's not adressed in the game, the very fact of thinking about it is more work that it should be XD And that's actually might be what will remove it : it's too much work, way simpler to simply not care and say that Sonic is on a giant rock floating in space, and that there's stuff on it. Nothing to think about it, there is just location and stuff, and Sonic is a blue rat that run everywhere done.

It doesn't change that it's still less work than doing a friggin rendering of a broken moon xD

I didn't say that it was "too much work", just that it was "useless work". There is a difference between both. But most often, you want to avoid useless (or here even detrimental as it would be a useless detail creating question that doesn't serve the current plot) work that only nerds like us care about xD

Sonic always aim to be as approachable as possible (another thing that might have doomed the two-world if it's really being removed), so having a broken moon in the sky isn't a thing that is thought as useful.

 

Dude, usually skyboxes on games aren't 3D models, but an image used as background. Drawing a broken moon isn't too much work at all.

And your claim that the all games are self-contained bubble isn't true at all. Sonic Heroes has a lot of references to Sonic Adventure 2 events on Team Dark story, and don't let me get started on Shadow the Hedgehog.

[Dr. Mechano]

Eh, the moon has an explanation that I can buy. Per Iizuka, it's still broken; We're just seeing its good side.

[User18091994]

14 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Eh, the moon has an explanation that I can buy. Per Iizuka, it's still broken; We're just seeing its good side.

He came up with this excuse during an interview. Probably he didn't even think about it when he was directing Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog. The moon always shows the same face to Earth all the time and people were able to see the moon being broken during Sonic Adventure 2, that means Eggman broke the side of the moon that faces the Earth.

[Dr. Mechano]

Yeah, but the moon being broken probably caused it to shift a little? Man, I don't know. 

It's the kind of explanation that's so dumb that I actually kinda like it.

[User18091994]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Yeah, but the moon being broken probably caused it to shift a little? Man, I don't know. 

It's the kind of explanation that's so dumb that I actually kinda like it.

It's possible, maybe the impact of the eclipse cannon changed the moon movements.

[Kazhnuz]

  If a laser is enough to break nearly 1/3 of the moon, shifting the orbit isn't that much IMO. I mean, if we are annoyed that they said that the moon was shifted, we would have to wonder why Earth isn't after SA2 affected by how much loosing such a part of the moon would create SERIOUS issues.

2 hours ago, Raphael Martins said:

Dude, usually skyboxes on games aren't 3D models, but an image used as background.

Good thing I said exactly that in an earlier message You are the one that talked about the CGI thing.

I will quote myself :

14 hours ago, Kazhnuz said:

I mean, most of the time, putting the moon on a background in a 3D game is taking a moon picture and doing texture edit by changing the colors, adding other texture as an overlay, photoshoping stuff. A broken moon would be more work as you have to redraw stuff or some part. And even if you have to do the moon from scratch… the whole moon would be just a simple circle (sphere if you're doing it 3D, most of the time you won't), while the broken moon would be a longer process of drawing it (modeling if you're doing it 3D).

So no, I didn't say that "skyboxes are 3D models" (well, technically in a way they are as they are boxes, what isn't a 3D models are the texture used ), I just said that you can do stuff 3D (for instance if you want a 3D image of a broken moon, you might modelise it and then export a picture to use on your skyboxe. You can also photoshop it, but TBH it'll depends of what you want, what tools you have at your disposal, how it'll be used, etc).

2 hours ago, Raphael Martins said:

Drawing a broken moon isn't too much work at all.

It's not "too much work". It's "more work than an option that'll better for most player" (as honnestly, it's work while the other is virtually no work). As I said, for me, not keeping the moon broken was actually a good decision from Sonic Team, because it only bother the most nerdy Sonic fans and that most people doesn't even notice that it changed.

2 hours ago, Raphael Martins said:

And your claim that the all games are self-contained bubble isn't true at all. Sonic Heroes has a lot of references to Sonic Adventure 2 events on Team Dark story, and don't let me get started on Shadow the Hedgehog.

For Heroes, self contained-bubble in the context of Sonic doesn't mean "no reference". It mostly means that only parts that are useful for the current plot will really be reused, or at most some reference. It doesn't mean that they'll try to actively create continuity, or that they'll keep every details. All Sonic game have to be able to be the first one.

And I never claimed that all games where self contained bubble, I just said that games were described as such. I've no problem saying that some game are not just self-contained bubble, especially Shadow that is an actual sequel (and it shouldn't have been one, making it a sequel to SA2 was a pretty bad idea, answering inexisting question, retconning SA2's mythos, managing to conflict with the better advancement of Shadow's mythos that we got in Battle, needlessly exemplifying Gerald's tragedy/legacy…). Sonic Heroes is mostly one, as it only reuse some stuff that it needs.

[User18091994]

13 minutes ago, Kazhnuz said:

  If a laser is enough to break nearly 1/3 of the moon, shifting the orbit isn't that much IMO. I mean, if we are annoyed that they said that the moon was shifted, we would have to wonder why Earth isn't after SA2 affected by how much loosing such a part of the moon would create SERIOUS issues.

Again, the explanation doesn't need to be realistic, it only needs to be coherent with the rules of Sonic universe. There's a clear difference between not realistic explanations in fictional universes because of artistic freedoms and poorly executed explanations. No one expects the Star Wars universe to follow realistic physics laws and theories, for example.
 

13 minutes ago, Kazhnuz said:

 So no, I didn't say that "skyboxes are 3D models" (well, technically in a way they are as they are boxes, what isn't a 3D models are the texture used ), I just said that you can do stuff 3D (for instance if you want a 3D image of a broken moon, you might modelise it and then export a picture to use on your skyboxe. You can also photoshop it, but TBH it'll depends of what you want, what tools you have at your disposal, how it'll be used, etc).

It's not "too much work". It's "more work than an option that'll better for most player" (as honnestly, it's work while the other is virtually no work). As I said, for me, not keeping the moon broken was actually a good decision from Sonic Team, because it only bother the most nerdy Sonic fans and that most people doesn't even notice that it changed.

You said they would have to model a 3D broken moon, they wouldn't because skyboxes and backgrounds aren't 3D models, but 2D pictures. And Sonic Team usually does way more complex and detailed backgrounds than just a broken moon. Such as:

 

13 minutes ago, Kazhnuz said:

For Heroes, self contained-bubble in the context of Sonic doesn't mean "no reference". It mostly means that only parts that are useful for the current plot will really be reused, or at most some reference. It doesn't mean that they'll try to actively create continuity, or that they'll keep every details. All Sonic game have to be able to be the first one.

If what you are saying it's true, why they didn't just put Shadow in the game without any explanation on why he is alive?

[Kazhnuz]

The moon being rotated by a big friggin laser doesn't seems incoherent with Sonic's universe to me XD (Well, the most coherent answer would be of course "the chaos emerald did it", as is the answer of every question in the Sonic Universe XD /joke)

 

46 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

You said they would have to model a 3D broken moon, they wouldn't because skyboxes and backgrounds aren't 3D models, but 2D pictures. And Sonic Team usually do way more complex and detailed backgrounds than just a broken moon.

I said "modeling it if you're doing it 3D" xD I mean, it's self explainatory. I said that if you are doing a 2D moon you'll draw it (or photoshop it, but it's a bit harder for something more 3D-y as SA2's broken moon where you see the core and fragments like they are). OR if you are doing it 3D, you'll do a model, and render it as a texture to use it directly. It'll really depends on what to do. But I never said that they WOULD HAVE to do that.

I've said that there were different way of doing it xD

As I said, the problem isn't how much it's too much work in itself (and remember that it's only a part of the background ^^). It's that it's doing more work for something that wouldn't be useful to the game, and that even would be kinda awkward. So not doing that effort was the best solution for them. It make the game simpler, it avoid at least some work, it doesn't mean having something to remind forever to every texture artist that would work on a night skybox for Sonic (yikes)…

 

46 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

If what you are saying it's true, why they didn't just put Shadow in the game without any explanation on why he is alive?

Even if I wouldn't entirely call what they did an "explanation", I think it's for two/three reason my reason, for me :

- It's not just a part of SA2's story. Shadow's sacrifice is part of Shadow's mythos as it's the conclusion of what he was created for*. Shadow's death was more important than just the story on one game, it wasn't just a part of SA2 (unlike the moon), it was a part of Shadow**, of who he was. So to continue a story with the character, I think it was pretty important, to make him continue.

- It's useful to Heroes story. Having him found and "revived" create not only his drive, but it also helped construct the Team Dark. So it serve Heroes. In a way, you don't even really need to understand Heroes to understand why Shadow sacrificied himself, or his story arc in SA2.

So here for me, we are in something more omportant that would be an inconsistency between SA2 and Heroes.

 

*This part isn't something they'll always care, I mean Chaos have just been shown as being still there xD

**That's why Blaze in 06 and Classic in Forces (even if the brand separation is kinda a good things, imo - and I'm not just saying that just because Flynn said so I promise XD) are really bad even with self-contained bubbles, because each time it changed a core element of the character. Eggman Nega in Rivals kinda too, but Eggman Nega I would say that it's not the only issue with him xD

[User18091994]

1 minute ago, Kazhnuz said:

Even if I wouldn't entirely call what they did an "explanation", I think it's for two/three reason my reason, for me :

- It's not just a part of SA2's story. Shadow's sacrifice is part of Shadow's mythos as it's the conclusion of what he was created for*. Shadow's death was more important than just the story on one game, it wasn't just a part of SA2 (unlike the moon), it was a part of Shadow**, of who he was. So to continue a story with the character, I think it was pretty important, to make him continue.

- It's useful to Heroes story. Having him found and "revived" create his drive, and help construct the Team Dark. So it serve Heroes. In a way, you don't even really need to understand Heroes to understand why Shadow sacrificied himself, or his story arc in SA2.

 

*This part isn't something they'll always care, I mean Chaos have just been shown as being still there xD

**That's why Blaze in 06 and Classic in Forces (even if the brand separation is kinda a good things, imo - and I'm not just saying that just because Flynn said so I promise XD) are bad. Eggman Nega in Rivals kinda too, but Eggman Nega I would say that it's not the only issue with him xD

They could just write stories that make use of pre-established events of past games. If you are saying it's true, they could just ignore everything about Shadow in Sonic Adventure 2, and re-introduce the characters as Sonic Adventure 2 never happened, but they didn't.

[Kazhnuz]

They could, in a way (they can do basically anything it's their story lol), but the reason why they didn't is that the character is bigger than just the game, because it's also a mythology, symbolism, and as I said it's part of "what is Shadow".

Sonic Heroes is a self-contained story (you don't need anything to understand it, and most reference aren't kinda strong or mandatory), but it doesn't mean that there isn't any connection possible, as I said it several times, or that every game is an hard reboot ^^ It have connection with SA2, connections that serve the story, that serve "Shadow". It just mean that they'll do connection if they want to.

Having the same writer between SA2 and Heroes certainly helped, especially when we see that Shadow, an game written as a sequel to SA2 was a complete mess that managed was horrible in how it rectonned SA2's mythos (especially when Battle made a way better advance of Shadow's mythos) and wasted the Shadow Android plot at the same time, even if it doesn't retcon that much SA2's events.

( It also doesn't mean that there is no "canon", mostly that it's "loose" and kinda can be retconned if they think it's needed. It's for me not an issue in itself, the issue is more that sometimes they do unneeded changes, that overcomplicate things )

[Mr. Ion]

Like @Kazhnuzjust said, Sega tends to pretty heavily pick and choose what they do in terms of plot. If it's convenient, use it, if not, then throw it to the wayside. After SA2's release, Shadow was extremely popular and marketable, so it made sense for him to come back. In-story though, I feel like even the explanation they gave was kind of hasty and not very detailed, especially with Shadow the Hedgehog clouding things up even more.

On the OP, I expect to get a lot of good lore and maybe explanations for certain things, but I feel like many of the things that are currently ambiguous will stay ambiguous. Like, I think they'll explain Shadow and things with Angel Island and maybe briefly touch on Two Worlds, but Sega may be hesitant to go in-depth. Then again, Ian Flynn is working on this and he may be able to pull some strings, who knows.

[bumhole_the_tom]

Sonic X explains why the echidnas appear in Sonic Adventure.

Sonic brings the Master Emerald, along with Chaos and Tikal, onto earth after defeating Eggman's Eggsterminator. The flashbacks they experience are of a time in which the Master Emerald was on Sonic's world.

It also has a scene where Eggman, upon finding his grandfather's diary, exclaims it must mean that, "this planet...was the planet I was born in!".

[Dr. Mechano]

14 hours ago, bumhole_the_tom said:

It also has a scene where Eggman, upon finding his grandfather's diary, exclaims it must mean that, "this planet...was the planet I was born in!".

Which makes no sense.

Eggman is unfamiliar with the Earth when he arrives early in the series. Yet he somehow remembers looking up to his grandfather as a child during the SA2 adaptation.

So Eggman remembers Professor Gerald from his childhood, but doesn't remember being from Earth or other humans? 

Those two things contradict each other, surely?

[Dummy Bear]

7 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Which makes no sense.

Eggman is unfamiliar with the Earth when he arrives early in the series. Yet he somehow remembers looking up to his grandfather as a child during the SA2 adaptation.

So Eggman remembers Professor Gerald from his childhood, but doesn't remember being from Earth or other humans? 

Those two things contradict each other, surely?

What was up with that whole "no memories of Earth" thing in Sonic X, anyway?

It feels so freaking arbitrary when it could've been something that gave Eggman an advantage over Sonic(knowledge of the Earth, it's locales, and human nature).

[Wraith]

Sonic X just ain't the series you go to for nuanced characterization, or smart worldbuilding decisions. Or good action sequences. Or comedy. Or anything.

[Zoomzeta]

2 hours ago, Wraith said:

Sonic X just ain't the series you go to for nuanced characterization, or smart worldbuilding decisions. Or good action sequences. Or comedy. Or anything.

I mean, that's your opinion, but I'm not fighting you for it.

[CertifiedNobody]

11 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Which makes no sense.

Eggman is unfamiliar with the Earth when he arrives early in the series. Yet he somehow remembers looking up to his grandfather as a child during the SA2 adaptation.

So Eggman remembers Professor Gerald from his childhood, but doesn't remember being from Earth or other humans? 

Those two things contradict each other, surely?

There are worse issues with Sonic X tbh, like how the Chaos Emeralds are compatible with a space colony from another reality