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Dreadknux
Message added by Dreadknux,

Split this from the Megathread as it was new news.

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Not only is Pokemond Sw/Sh irrelevant to the discussion at hand, being a different series in a different genre (and despite all of the idiotic "this is the best the franchise has ever been" reviews it ended up being the worst reviewed main series games in the franchise), I'm having a hard time understanding why a game that was never commonly accepted to be a masterpiece should be considered one now because Sega put out a half-assed remaster of it.

 

 

 

 

Circa 2009, you'd find a lot of people who'd say 7/10 was perfectly in line with what the game actually was; particularly when most of the praise it got even then was "it's Unleashed without the imagination/scope but also without any of the heinously stupid bullshit parts".

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CrystalMaelStorm
2 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

It's a respectable range, but if Sonic Colors and Generations were a game for franchises like Pokémon it would be from 90 to 100 or something like that.

Not that they are bad, at all, but some things at the least about them could be overrated. Just saying. It is reviewer’s bias again, if you ask me.

EDIT: Sorry. Did not see the above post.

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Dr. Mechano
Just now, Raphael Martins said:

It's a respectable range, but if Sonic Colors and Generations were a game for franchises like Pokémon it would be from 90 to 100 or something like that.

100 is literally perfect. Almost no game gets a 100 and very few games even break into the 90s. 

I enjoyed Colors, but it's still not in the "near-perfect game" category. So I don't take it as some slight that it scored the way it did. It's in the top quartile and that's good enough for me.

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User18091994
1 minute ago, Tornado said:

Not only is Pokemond Sw/Sh irrelevant to the discussion at hand, being a different series in a different genre, I'm having a hard time understanding why a game that was never commonly accepted to be a masterpiece should be considered one now because Sega put out a half-assed remaster of it.

 

 

 

 

Circa 2009, you'd find a lot of people who'd say 7/10 was perfectly in line with what the game actually was; particularly when most of the praise it got even then was "it's Unleashed without the imagination/scope but also without any of the heinously stupid bullshit parts".

Pokémon Sw/Sh is relevant to the discussion because it's an example of how franchise like Pokémon get higher scores just because they are respected, despite the games lacking in the quality department. It doesn't matter if they are different genres, Pokémon Sw/Sh is just a bad Pokémon game that got 80/100 metascore because of reviewers bias.

1 minute ago, Dr. Mechano said:

100 is literally perfect. Almost no game gets a 100 and very few games even break into the 90s. 

I enjoyed Colors, but it's still not in the "near-perfect game" category. So I don't take it as some slight that it scored the way it did. It's in the top quartile and that's good enough for me.

Yeah, but franchises like Pokémon get higher scores than the games deserve, so if Sonic Generations were a Pokémon game, it would be considered a flawless masterpiece.

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post  Unleashed I really wouldn't argue any placement of the mainline games in terms of aggregate scores. Their quality reflected what they got fairly consistently 

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CrystalMaelStorm
3 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

100 is literally perfect. Almost no game gets a 100 and very few games even break into the 90s. 

I enjoyed Colors, but it's still not in the "near-perfect game" category. So I don't take it as some slight that it scored the way it did. It's in the top quartile and that's good enough for me.

I do think you are giving Colors a hard time a little, but not that much. I do agree, though, it is no 100 score game. Maybe not in the 90s even. I have seen better games.

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User18091994

I'm sorry, but you guys cannot convince me that the review scores from critics have more value and are more professional than any other opinion I see on the internet when they give flawed games like Pokémon Sw/Sh scores that high.

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Dr. Mechano
Just now, CrystalMaelStorm said:

I do think you are giving Colors a hard time a little, but not that much. I do agree, though, it is no 100 score game. Maybe not in the 90s even. I have seen better games.

I am? I've been really positive about Colors throughout the whole thread. I haven't even really criticized it, unless "It's not perfect" is a criticism. 

I'm just satisfied with its current review standing and don't see it as a bad grade.

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User18091994
Just now, Dr. Mechano said:

I am? I've been really positive about Colors throughout the whole thread. I haven't even really criticized it, unless "It's not perfect" is a criticism. 

I'm just satisfied with its current review standing and don't see it as a bad grade.

Yeah, but there's no such a thing as a perfect game. If you analyze games that the critics consider masterpieces, you'll notice that a lot of them have almost the same amount of flaws as games like Sonic Colors or Generations.

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CrystalMaelStorm
2 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I am? I've been really positive about Colors throughout the whole thread. I haven't even really criticized it, unless "It's not perfect" is a criticism. 

I'm just satisfied with its current review standing and don't see it as a bad grade.

Just with that one post. That is all. It was just my opinion. Never said you were wrong, and I could have been wrong.

And sorry, I did not realize you were positive. I do think the game could not score higher, as it is not even perfect.

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16 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

Pokémon Sw/Sh is relevant to the discussion because it's an example of how franchise like Pokémon get higher scores just because they are respected, despite the games lacking in the quality department. It doesn't matter if they are different genres, Pokémon Sw/Sh is just a bad Pokémon game that got 80/100 metascore because of reviewers bias.

Whether or not Sw/Sh should have gotten a lower score (and again, it's the worst scoring mainline Pokemon game to date; and its expansion packs didn't even get out of the 60s) does not have anything to do with whether Sonic Colors is anything more than a 7/10 game on a good day. Both things can even be true without their being a hexagonal conspiracy where Sonic specifically is singled out for negative treatment from the press.

 

16 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

Yeah, but franchises like Pokémon get higher scores than the games deserve, so if Sonic Generations were a Pokémon game, it would be considered a flawless masterpiece.

I think you have a rather poorly conceived notion of how well even the almost inarguably best Pokemon games in the franchise, the ones where the fandom gets into fucking shouting matches if anyone even dares to criticize any aspects of them, actually get for review scores. Not a one has even gotten very close to a 90.

 

 

 

 

 

And by no standard is Generations a "flawless masterpiece."

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Dr. Mechano
5 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

I'm sorry, but you guys cannot convince me that the review scores from critics have more value and are more professional than any other opinion I see on the internet when they give flawed games like Pokémon Sw/Sh scores that high.

That's fine.

Ultimately, your enjoyment (or lack thereof) is going to be based on your own tastes, not a critic's reviews.

However, critical review scores have "value" in the sense that they're convincing to a segment of potential buyers. A casual fan who's on the fence about Sonic Colors might be more likely to buy it since it is reviewing rather well, compared to - say - Forces, which reviewed less well.

This mainly applies to older gamers, of course. Kids will (and did) buy both games in droves because "blue hedgehog go fast" - and something as esoteric as review scores ultimately don't matter to them.

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User18091994
6 minutes ago, Tornado said:

Whether or not Sw/Sh should have gotten a lower score (and again, it's the worst scoring mainline Pokemon game to date) does not have anything to do with whether Sonic Colors is anything more than a 7/10 game on a good day. Both things can be true without their being a hexagonal conspiracy where Sonic specifically is singled out for negative treatment from the press.

The only thing I'm seeing in your comments is you treating like my opinion is wrong just because it isn't a popular one. And this is ad populum fallacy.

6 minutes ago, Tornado said:

I think you have a rather poorly conceived notion of how well even the almost inarguably best Pokemon games in the franchise, the ones where the fandom gets into fucking shouting matches if anyone even dares to criticize any aspects of them, actually get for review scores.

I don't care about what the Pokémon fans think, I played Pokémon Sw/Sh myself and I saw the abysmal and embarrassing flaws this game has.

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CrystalMaelStorm

Um, yeah, not trying to mini mod here, but I think the Pokémon discussion should be dropped and we should move on. Sonic and Pokemon are not the same, after all. Sorry if I seemed to be mini-modding, I was just making a suggestion.

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Dude why are we talking about POKEMON!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAA

Anyways, Ultimate looks like it probably deserves a lower-60-something for the visual side port job looking so botched, but you know what? Good for the fans enjoying themselves with a return to it. Guess it works just fine for those who didn't think to (or have chance to) replay it on Dolphin or whatever. Especially if you haven't been back to it in so long that you uhh.. don't remember how it looked beforehand. Heh.

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CrystalMaelStorm
1 minute ago, azoo said:

Dude why are we talking about POKEMON!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAA

Sonic Colors Ultimate looks like it probably deserves a 60-something for the visual side port job looking so botched, but you know what? Good for the fans enjoying themselves with a return to it. Guess it works just fine for those who didn't think to (or have chance to) replay it on Dolphin or whatever.

You know, I’d say if this game were any better, yet the reviews were much worse, I’d think there would be better reason to criticize reviewers. Just saying.

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User18091994
12 minutes ago, Tornado said:

And by no standard is Generations a "flawless masterpiece."

I don't consider Sonic Generations a flawless masterpiece, It's not even among my favorite Sonic games. I don't consider Sonic Colors a flawless masterpiece either. I'm just saying if these games were from respected franchises that always get higher scores no matter how flawed the games are, this is how the critics would analyze them.

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2 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

The only thing I'm seeing in your comments is you treating like my opinion is wrong just because it isn't a popular one. And this is ad populum fallacy.

Your opinion isn't wrong, it's fine that you disagree with the reviews.

But please stop pretending that there's some overarching conspiracy against Sonic that the entire games media is in on.

Sonic Colors is reviewing well from outlets again just like it did 11 years ago and that's fine.

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I would take a good Sonic game over a mediocre Pokemon game, but that's another opinion of mine, so... can't argue with taste.

I personally think this remaster is getting the scores it deserves, 77 is ideal. It has improvements, enhancements and adds a minimum of good new features that other remasters simply don't bother with.

There is no conspiracy because it is getting good reviews.

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User18091994
5 minutes ago, Nix said:

Your opinion isn't wrong, it's fine that you disagree with the reviews.

But please stop pretending that there's some overarching conspiracy against Sonic that the entire games media is in on.

Sonic Colors is reviewing well from outlets again just like it did 11 years ago and that's fine.

I didn't say there is a conspiracy going on against Sonic. I'm saying professional reviewers from the critics usually give games scores based on how good a series reputation is more than the actual quality of the games, and I used Pokémon Sw/Sh as an example of this kind of behavior. But there are other examples as well: Final Fantasy XIII. A very flawed Final Fantasy game that got great scores on its original release because Final Fantasy had a good reputation at that time.

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There is no bias against Sonic reviews in the greater populace. Maybe the only game in the series that got the shit end of the deal was Unleashed, which was not only over-scrutinized as the follow-up to 06 but also ranked under the (obviously inferior) Wii version.

If anything, some reviewers in the past have had tendency to be too kind to the games. Forces getting middling reception overall was generous! And don't even get me started on Sonic 4: Episode 1! lol

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Rabbitearsblog

I'm honestly not surprised that Sonic Colors Ultimate has a positive reception because it had a positive reception years ago, so to the critics, it's basically the same game they played years ago, just with more add ons.

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Generations got short-staffed in my opinion, it should have a higher score than Colors.

Otherwise yeah, 77 is perfectly good for a perfectly good game. Honestly it is probably a bigger indictment to the remaster's lack of improvement than the original game that it didn't score better. Critics clearly believe it held up and that was the best the game and SEGA could ask for.

5 minutes ago, azoo said:

And don't even get me started on Sonic 4: Episode 1! lol

I don't even understand how that reviewed better than Episode 2. It's like they suddenly realized the first wasn't actually that good and took it out on the sequel.

Not like Episode 2 is a masterpiece anyway but it's certainly an improvement.

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Ryannumber1Scarer

High 70s seem just about right to me for Colours. It's a fun game, but still has a lot of control issues, length issues, and various nibbles that drag it down quite a few pegs. If anything, I'm actually genuinely shocked that it held up like this. Usually remaster collections always end up having sizeable drops in review scores, despite their original versions scoring higher (Jak, Sly and Ratchet collections all fell under this from what I recall). 

I'm still hoping Colours will still be a decent enough success to convince SEGA that remastering other games can be a viable option moving forward too. I really wanna see Unleashed and Generations get ports to further consoles too.

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21 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

The only thing I'm seeing in your comments is you treating like my opinion is wrong just because it isn't a popular one. And this is ad populum fallacy.

I can randomly post Wikipedia articles as if that makes me look smart too.

 

21 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

I don't care about what the Pokémon fans think, I played Pokémon Sw/Sh myself I saw the abysmal and embarrassing flaws this game has.

Pokemon fans seem to think that Sw/Sh were pretty terrible regardless. There's a reason every single comment section or forum topic about the games turned into a shithole immediately and why people actively were saying how much they were looking forward to Snap 2 and etc because Game Freak wasn't making them.

 

 

Sw/Sh still has fucking nothing to do with Sonic Colors. They aren't in the same genre. They aren't in the same franchise. They aren't competitors in any way; retarded Sonic Twitter posts aside. Your arguments thus far in this thread are just as dumb as the ones on Twitter last year when people were dabbing on The Last of Us franchise as being an objectively worse one than Tony Hawk's Pro Skater; except people were doing it then to get a rise out of people up their own ass about TLoU II's review scores and you seem to thing it's a legitimate talking point.

 

 

 

 

15 minutes ago, Raphael Martins said:

I don't consider Sonic Generations a flawless masterpiece, It's not even among my favorite Sonic games. I don't consider Sonic Colors a flawless masterpiece either. I'm just saying if these games were from respected franchises that always get higher scores no matter how flawed the games are, this is how the critics would analyze them.

Again, Pokemon games on average barely get higher ratings than Sonic games. Metacritic's top whatever of all time list isn't lousy with Pokemon games. The best Pokemon games on the site are all at 87. Sonic has 5 games that eclipse that. For every mainline Pokemon game that scores somewhere in the 80s, there is at least 2 shitty spinoff games that is lucky to get in the 60s (as did the Sw/Sh expansion packs). The odd hyperbolic idiotic "this is the greatest Pokemon game ever made" that you see doesn't reflect the actual trend of the reviews anymore than the typical hyperbolic idiotic 4/10 Jim Sterling review for Sonic games.

 

 

 

It's no more a conspiracy that Pokemon Sw/Sh got slapped with an 80 when it's pretty bad than it is that fucking Sonic 4 Episode 1 ended up with an 81 when it's fucking atrocious.

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