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Message added by Dreadknux,

Split this from the Megathread as it was new news.

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10 minutes ago, NoKaine said:
15 minutes ago, Remy said:

 

Unleashed had the "If only the Werehog wasn't here, Sonic would be good again" attitude. People didn't think Unleashed was good, they thought part of it was good, which is why Colors exist.

A performance boost isn't going to help its review potential either.

You might be surprised how much sub 30 fps tanks the feel of a game. I feel like people would not care as much if those sections actually ran acceptably.

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24 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Sega ignored the crying for an Unleashed remaster and made a beeline for a game no one was asking for instead because their point never was to give hardcore Sonic fans an archival rerelease they'd been asking for. They chose Sonic Colors and marketed it like a new release because it was an easy stepping stone for new players into playing Sonic games after the movie. This is the main reason they even bothered with this release after 10 years of ignoring their back catalogue. They never saw the point in bothering beforehand.

What other Sonic games are good for this? The Adventure games are buggy, unpolished, visually unappealing and overall don't play anything like modern Sonic games typically do nowadays and almost every other 3D Sonic game is worse in that regard. There's not even any relevant characters or lore to introduce in either game besides Shadow.

No other 3D Sonic game actually compliments this goal other than Generations, so nothing besides maybe Generations is getting a remaster. Sonic's 'ongoing story' is deliberately underminded at every opportunity for the sake of making every Sonic product easy to access, so they won't use that as a selling point. They don't think 'hardcore 3D Sonic fans' alone are a lucrative target demo, else Sonic Unleashed Ultimate would have been out before Colors.

I agree that just putting the bad games on a disc and shipping them out is the right call, but I'm convinced sega will never feel this way. It's always cold, calculated, cynical grasps at stabilizing Sonic's popularity without alienating anyone now.

Also this, precisely. Forgot about the movie part. 

As for Gens remaster... The games' already on PC running smooth as butter at 60FPS, but it's locked on 30 on consoles. Let's assume they'll do the same as Colors and we get all versions now running at 60FPS and 4K, except the Switch of course. Then what else? All the songs are already remixes. The graphics are still pretty good, I don't want they ruining it with bloom and shit... The game already has some cool extras. And I doubt they would create brand new levels like people have been asking since day 1, you Ice Cap maniacs. 

So, hm... IDK about Gens really.

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Just now, Remy said:

You might be surprised how much sub 30 fps tanks the feel of a game. I feel like people would not care as much if those sections actually ran acceptably.

Performance will help no matter what of course, and it'll definitely give a better opinion on the Daytime stages, but the critical and common reception of the Werehog is more than just about its performance.

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1 minute ago, Jango said:

Also this, precisely. Forgot about the movie part. 

As for Gens remaster... The games' already on PC running smooth as butter at 60FPS, but it's locked on 30 on consoles. Let's assume they'll do the same as Colors and we get all versions now running at 60FPS and 4K, except the Switch of course. Than what else? All the songs are already remixes. The graphics are still pretty good, I don't wanna they ruining it with bloom and shit... The game already has some cool extras. And I doubt they would create brand new levels like people have been asking since day 1, you Ice Cap maniacs. 

So, hm... IDK about Gens really.

They will probably shit all over it with bloom because modern game developers can't help themselves there. Other than that and gutting the lives system I can't see them screwing anything up. It'll probably be the best version of the game overall whenever it finally comes.

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4 minutes ago, Jango said:

Also this, precisely. Forgot about the movie part. 

As for Gens remaster... The games' already on PC running smooth as butter at 60FPS, but it's locked on 30 on consoles. Let's assume they'll do the same as Colors and we get all versions now running at 60FPS and 4K, except the Switch of course. Than what else? All the songs are already remixes. The graphics are still pretty good, I don't wanna they ruining it with bloom and shit... The game already has some cool extras. And I doubt they would create brand new levels like people have been asking since day 1, you Ice Cap maniacs. 

So, hm... IDK about Gens really.

Generations is in an even more awkward spot than Colors. Not much that SEGA can add to a remaster to market unless yeah they make new levels like levels from the games that came after.

A 3D Studiopolis or a Lost World level and Sunset Heights with good level design is marketable but that is a lot of effort and assets to dedicate to a remaster that otherwise would be 100% identical to the original.

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Accessibility means a lot for game remasters, and Generations as it is is only available either via PC, or at 30fps, 1080p on Xbox consoles via BC mode. If the target demographic are casual fans and in particular - kids - neither of these are a particularly great option, if only because having a rig able to play Gens on PC at full settings isn’t exactly accessible to kids (at least to the degree of consoles) and the version on Xbox is held back by being a 360 title. Having Gens on new consoles with enhanced performance in of itself would be a good selling point.

The easy value of a Generations remaster is feasibly, a chunk of the work is already done because they had to provide these features for the PC version (60fps, higher resolutions). Much like Saints Row the Third Remastered, they could easily get away with just porting over the PC version at high/max settings for PS5/Series X and adjusting as needed for the other consoles. If we’re going to sit here and argue the viability of Colours being a crowd-pleaser, it makes zero sense to disqualify the game that is widely considered the best 3D game by reviewers/casual audiences, and would likely require even less leg-work on SEGA’s part to port over.

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I don't know exactly how to put this but the relative lack of effort in a Generations port is exactly why I believe SEGA won't bother. To be specific, I don't see them doing like a big marketing campaign and advertisement on it like with Colors Ultimate, and that's a big part of sales.

Unleashed would take too much effort for a remaster to get a positive reception, Generations would take too little. Colors is a nice sweetspot, leaning on "too little." It's easy to market a Wii game on modern consoles because going from 480p to even 720P is still a bigger draw than going 1080p to 4K. Colors and Generations also don't have performance issues, so going 60FPS is nice but nothing to rave over. The Switch version of Colors Ultimate will still probably outsell the other versions in spite of the lower framerate.

If a Generations remaster happens, it'll be a silent release on modern consoles, probably announced like a month in advance.

People would buy Generations, but how will you make people aware? What do you sell it with? Being very, very, very slightly prettier?

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4 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Accessibility means a lot for game remasters, and Generations as it is is only available either via PC, or at 30fps, 1080p on Xbox consoles via BC mode. If the target demographic are casual fans and in particular - kids - neither of these are a particularly great option, if only because having a rig able to play Gens on PC at full settings isn’t exactly accessible to kids (at least to the degree of consoles) and the version on Xbox is held back by being a 360 title. Having Gens on new consoles with enhanced performance in of itself would be a good selling point.

The easy value of a Generations remaster is feasibly, a chunk of the work is already done because they had to provide these features for the PC version (60fps, higher resolutions). Much like Saints Row the Third Remastered, they could easily get away with just porting over the PC version at high/max settings for PS5/Series X and adjusting as needed for the other consoles. If we’re going to sit here and argue the viability of Colours being a crowd-pleaser, it makes zero sense to disqualify the game that is widely considered the best 3D game by reviewers/casual audiences, and would likely require even less leg-work on SEGA’s part to port over.

I think most of us here agree that Generations would probably been the only two likely games to get a remaster (that are recentish) and don't think it is a bad choice as it also had a positive reception. I think most of the conversation taking place is more why Colors edged out over Generations if there was a discussion on which to remaster within SEGA.

Colors was only on Wii, and had no version in HD. It should also be mentioned that for Generations even if you don't have a PC, on playstation you can get it on PS now, and you can get BC on Xbox. It is not the most accessible game ever, but at the same time it is a lot better than Colors where the only way to play to this day is the Wii (or DS). So a lot of that is probably why it ended up getting chosen. It's not that Generations is disqualified, it probably will be one day! (There are also conversations to be had about story/design etc too that could have came up).

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I won't lie, I am glad Colors is getting a second chance, Generations would be super welcome (my favorite game tied to Mania) and I hope Colors does really well so the message that more games should be revisited will be clear. Unleashed? I would love to play it on PC, I am dubious about its potential reception because it is one of the controversial Sonic titles. But I've never played it, so I would love to.

Just fix this glitch fest with more patches (they already released a couple) and we are cool.

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Idk guys, this is the same SEGA that re-released Sonic the Fighters on (at the time) current hardware, despite its reputation and it not being all that “marketable”. 
 

Yeah that was a small Xbox arcade/PS store release, but it does show that sometimes sega/sonic team just re-releases games. 
 

Hell, it’s not like they’re alone in doing stuff like that. Capcom remastering Onimusha and Okami games on current hardware despite there being really no marketable reasoning for doing so also comes to mind. They weren’t adding any new entries to the series, like DMC, or making any big new merch. Companies sometimes throw fans a bone on things like that. 

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Capcom remasters contentious games all the time, but it seems like Sega doesn't see the value in that kind of thing. They have something good going with the movie and seem a little too hesitant to risk anything right now.

Getting anything going with Sonic nowadays feels like pushing a boulder up hill.

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1 minute ago, KHCast said:

Idk guys, this is the same SEGA that re-released Sonic the Fighters on (at the time) current hardware, despite its reputation and it not being all that “marketable”. 
 

Yeah that was a small Xbox arcade/PS store release, but it does show that sometimes sega/sonic team just re-releases games. 

Fighters was also updated slightly, not just released as is.

Eggman, Metal Sonic, and Honey (only accessible through modding in the original game) were full selectable characters in the digital release.

Older games with small extra features are definite possibilities.

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If the werehog is the reason Unleashed isn't getting a rerelease today, then I'm just so looking forward to 10 years in the future when Sega won't rerelease Forces because no one wants to play as Classic Sonic. Even if you're not a fan, it's a bit of a kick in the teeth for people who are.

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8 minutes ago, KHCast said:

Idk guys, this is the same SEGA that re-released Sonic the Fighters on (at the time) current hardware, despite its reputation and it not being all that “marketable”. 
 

Yeah that was a small Xbox arcade/PS store release, but it does show that sometimes sega/sonic team just re-releases games. 

To be fair I think that was more just down to "we have an emulator for Virtua Fighter 2 and Virtual On ready to go, might as well cover all bases" than anything from Sonic Team's end. 

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Generation have one adventage compared to SCU, as it would be that a part of the work needed on a Sonic Colors would be easier : making it actually run on modern plateform. Even if the rendering pipeline would need some kind of rework to add fancy effects, I feel that a lot of the dev times of Colors was to actually have a renderer that worked on current plateforms.

So I think it would make some devtime available for some extras (no new level - even if I would love a fourth era ). Some easy target to give some bonus to the game à la Sonic Colors Ultimate might be alternate character as skin (Shadow, Blaze, Metal). Sadly the biggest issue of Generation is that it's too short, so this part is difficult to do in a cheap way.

 

Sonic Unleashed MIGHT also have this adventage (even without a PC version), but maybe not. It also have the adventage of having some easy quality of life that would make the game better (making some upgrade available sooner to buff the werehog, some equivelent of Tails Save would have a great reception, removing the medals count, adding the DLC content), but SEGA might be afraid of the bad publicity of the game, IDK. But they have enough content and low-hanging fruit to create a superior version of Unleashed without too much work.

 

Older game would need either full remake, either like SCU remaking the whole rendering engine, especially Heroes that use Renderware. One of the biggest thing I would want would be a re-release of SADX with bugfixes and the lighting restored.

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8 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Capcom remasters contentious games all the time, but it seems like Sega doesn't see the value in that kind of thing. They have something good going with the movie and seem a little too hesitant to risk anything right now.

Getting anything going with Sonic nowadays feels like pushing a boulder up hill.

Fair, it’s also worth considering as I said, in general, archival/Re-releases of old games in general when it comes to sega, unless it’s a genesis game, seems to have only been a thing last during the PS3/360 era. Stuff like Space Channel, Crazy Taxi, Jet Set Radio and a slew of Dreamcast games was booming during that time. So it doesn’t seem to be exclusive to Sonic, Sega as a whole seems to have had a shift in perspective on preservation/re-releasing/remastering older titles

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2 minutes ago, KHCast said:

Fair, it’s also worth considering as I said, in general, archival/Re-releases of old games in general when it comes to sega, unless it’s a genesis game, seems to have only been a thing last during the PS3/360 era. Stuff like Space Channel, Crazy Taxi, Jet Set Radio and a slew of Dreamcast games was booming during that time. So it doesn’t seem to be exclusive to Sonic, Sega as a whole seems to have had a shift in perspective on preservation/re-releasing/remastering older titles

I mean, they did Monkey Ball, Yakuza and Virtua Fighter 5 along with the Ages series and Nocturne/Persona 4 from Atlus. They're still doing stuff, just not really sticking their neck out for stuff that wasn't successful. 

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16 minutes ago, BadBehavior said:

If the werehog is the reason Unleashed isn't getting a rerelease today, then I'm just so looking forward to 10 years in the future when Sega won't rerelease Forces because no one wants to play as Classic Sonic. Even if you're not a fan, it's a bit of a kick in the teeth for people who are.

It's the same feeling I get when they also might no rerelease Heroes because "Sonic's shitty friends", or remake Adventure because "lol BIG".

But Unleashed's issue with the Werehog, besides the idea of turning Sonic into a werewolf on itself being odd to say the least (and this will be mocked untill the Sun explodes), was that even the gameplay was mediocre at best. It was the thing back when God of War was the shit, and I admit I gave the pass in 2008, but nowadays? Hack-n-slash games have evolved away from the button mash and repetitive nature. They can mask a few issues with QoL updates, but the core gameplay will still be the same. I've tricked myself into thinking I liked the Werehog gameplay after all, but since I've replayed Unleashed earlier this year, I was seamlessly just rushing every combat to get it over with, because it's not engaging anymore, dare I say it never was... 

I love the day time stages, the dialogue, the art direction and music in Unleashed. But bearing with the Werehog is as much as a pain in the ass as fishing with Big in SA1. 

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2 hours ago, Remy said:

You might be surprised how much sub 30 fps tanks the feel of a game. I feel like people would not care as much if those sections actually ran acceptably.

The framerate issues in Unleashed definitely got notable criticism at the time, but "Sonic goes too fast and I die a lot" and "Werehog is boring and slow I want to go fast as Sonic" (usually in the same review lolol) were the biggest takeaways, and if Unleashed re-released without some quality of life changes, I'm pretty sure the latter stuff would just take centre stage rather than sharing the spotlight with performance issues.  I imagine only critics who do some research into the original would mention the upgrade to smooth FPS in an Unleashed remaster, while most would forget, take it for granted that the game runs smooth, and focus on the flaws instead.

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Not sure I like the use of the phrase "hardcore 3D Sonic fans" when its application seems to be simply "Sonic Unleashed fans". That feels pretty gatekeep-y. I think we all just need to accept that Sonic Unleashed was simply 'okay' (even the day stages; there's really not a lot of depth to it) and that liking/disliking it is not the litmus test for being a 'true Sonic fan'. Sonic Colours and Generations were just as good (if not arguably better) and they deserve a chance at a re-release just as much as Unleashed does.

Mind you, I think someone mentioned that SEGA will only really remaster a game if they see marketable value in it. That's true of absolutely any company that wants to stay in business; remember when SEGA started making 32Xs and Mega CDs and competing SEGA Saturn hardwares just for shits and giggles? And then they fell out of the hardware business, haha.

Would rather have a SEGA that's discerning about where its money is going and whether they see a good enough return on its investment than no SEGA at all.

All that said, I would rather like a remaster of Sonic Unleashed too. I imagine Hedgehog Engine port/reworks and the fact it can be played BC on Xbox Series consoles might give SEGA a reason to hold off on that one though.

-------

On topic: I was wondering if I low-balled my review score a little bit after seeing so many other outlets give it an 8/10, haha. Although I think, after the game's fully released and with the passage of time, people might settle into an agreed 7 as per Metacritic. But I think that's probably due to a lot of today's reviewers remembering the original Sonic Colours fondly rather than assessing a brand new game with modern eyes.

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3 hours ago, Jango said:

Sega ignored the crying for an Unleashed remaster and made a beeline for a game no one was asking for instead because their point never was to give hardcore Sonic fans an archival rerelease they'd been asking for.

I realize this comes from a place of disliking the game but this flat out isn't true. Colors was on the Wii and by extension Wii U and wasn't give any update in 11 years and wasn't given the Steam treatment like every game after it so a lot of people wanted it ported to modern systems, as much as Unleashed? Probably not but sure as hell more than the "no one wanted it" narrative anyway.

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14 minutes ago, Soniman said:

I realize this comes from a place of disliking the game but this flat out isn't true. Colors was on the Wii and by extension Wii U and wasn't give any update in 11 years and wasn't given the Steam treatment like every game after it so a lot of people wanted it ported to modern systems, as much as Unleashed? Probably not but sure as hell more than the "no one wanted it" narrative anyway.

Yeah, but I did not said that despite what the quote says xD It was @Wraith

Let's just settle this discussion about the worthy of game getting a remaster or not with: if you've been here long enough (and I know you guys have), you know someone at least once asked for a rerelease of basically EVERY damn Sonic game, from Chaotix to 06. And don't get me wrong, I don't mind this and the idea of a Super Duper Sonic Collection would be a way to go. But at the same time:

32 minutes ago, Dreadknux said:

Mind you, I think someone mentioned that SEGA will only really remaster a game if they see marketable value in it. That's true of absolutely any company that wants to stay in business; remember when SEGA started making 32Xs and Mega CDs and competing SEGA Saturn hardwares just for shits and giggles? And then they fell out of the hardware business, haha.

Would rather have a SEGA that's discerning about where its money is going and whether they see a good enough return on its investment than no SEGA at all.

What Dread said. Games are products. You can't just risk putting money on a game that got a 4 on Metacritic and it's still mocked a decade later. It's not like Unleashed, 06, Shadow or Black Knight are games that were misunderstood or misjudged when they came out and will suddenly become cult classics if they see the light of day again.

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