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Dreadknux
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Split this from the Megathread as it was new news.

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7 minutes ago, Johnster4 said:

I agree it just feels like all Sonic Team want to do is abandon long term Sonic fans, my frustrations go further than alternate playstyles and friends with constantly dumbing down the games by making them easier to play with no challenging content, 3 hour games with not enough post game content (3 hour games for $40/£35 that too much), plots that have terrible writing and plot details that should be expanded upon but don't, someone needs to point these criticisms out to Iizuka or Aaron at the next SXSW Panel or an equivalent set up by SEGA themselves and ask them why should long time Sonic fans care about the next sonic game when these problems keep persisting with every game release since Colours?

Because they're not losing any money, that's why. As difficult as it is to accept, Sega likely doesn't see any profit in releasing or reexploring their old concepts due to the negative and mediocre reception they have gotten. Fans have been screaming at them for years now for a Sonic Adventure remake, and they just don't care lol. If they cared, we would have gotten it already. 

They haven't done it because they don't want to; we could talk until we're blue in the face and they likely wouldn't care because that's not the market they want. Iizuka's recent interviews have made it abundantly clear where they want to focus their efforts on in terms of Sonic's demographic, and the older fans just aren't part of that equation sadly. 

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BadBehavior

They don't wanna explore old concepts in theory

In practice we've been fed nothing but Green Hill member berries the entire past decade.

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Throwing in half-assed fanservice is a lot different from building on concepts of old. 

If they had just brought back City Escape in every game and shoved Shadow in every game without any context, I would be just as annoyed....I'd probably be more annoyed actually since those are things I hold emotional attachment to. 

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Rabbitearsblog
6 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Throwing in half-assed fanservice is a lot different from building on concepts of old. 

If they had just brought back City Escape in every game and shoved Shadow in every game without any context, I would be just as annoyed....I'd probably be more annoyed actually since those are things I hold emotional attachment to. 

I agree with this because it would seem like they are just shoving in these elements without giving them any kind of development or making them relevant to the story at hand.

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Because they're not losing any money, that's why. As difficult as it is to accept, Sega likely doesn't see any profit in releasing or reexploring their old concepts due to the negative and mediocre reception they have gotten. Fans have been screaming at them for years now for a Sonic Adventure remake, and they just don't care lol. If they cared, we would have gotten it already. 

They haven't done it because they don't want to; we could talk until we're blue in the face and they likely wouldn't care because that's not the market they want. Iizuka's recent interviews have made it abundantly clear where they want to focus their efforts on in terms of Sonic's demographic, and the older fans just aren't part of that equation sadly. 

I do wonder though:  what happens if SEGA decided to remake one of their older games, like say Sonic 06?  They could rewrite the entire story and improve on the gameplay.  Would people still hate on the remake because it's still Sonic 06, even though the graphics are much better and the story is rewritten to be less convoluted or will people enjoy the remake over the original if it becomes a success?

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Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon
1 hour ago, NoKaine said:

You can't tell me self-titled "hardcore Sonic fans" don't have a weird superiority complex when they genuinely believe this.

Forces didn't sell among because of "casuals." You people bought it. Sonic fans. "Casuals" stayed the fuck away from the 56 Metacritic game and played Super Mario Odyssey.

SEGA would have a different outlook if they weren't all fundamentally bombs

I mean, they have absolutely no problem pimping out Colors. But apparently that's because "hold the button and go brrrr", not like Unleashed with its super complicated level design and not at all tedious God of War ripoff that comprises of 80% of the game. Noooooo, medal collecting isn't an obnoxious waste of time and the most obvious attempt at padding since they put fishing in a Sonic game, it's Art^TM. 

If Unleashed released today, it would definitely score high.

They made Mania because people like 2D Sonic. They made Colors Ultimate because people like Colors. They won't make Sonic '06 Remastered because no one actually likes '06. 

Hot take: even most "hardcore fans" don't like '06 and it seems to me that its most ardent fans are kind of just projecting super hard onto what's not actually there, i.e. a good game. 

I still can't believe there are fans who swear Forces is an "affront to game design" and subsequently beg for Sonic '06 scraps. 

Honestly,  one thing that has grown notorious is people who insist on throwing shade at Sonic Colors as supposedly being some casual-fest cash-geab, supposedly in difference to Unleashed.

It's honestly a silly notion really. The demand for a Colors remaster was certainly there, so acting like it's mainly for the "casual crowd" to the point where arguments against it devolve into "lol press one button", are ludicrous to say the least.

Like, if you dislike Colors, that's fine,  but resorting to trying to drag it down with simply untrue rhetoric just to try and make Unleashed seem like the beacon that it really isn't,  does not work as a good argument on any grounds.

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9 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

Honestly,  one thing that has grown notorious is people who insist on throwing shade at Sonic Colors as supposedly being some casual-fest cash-geab, supposedly in difference to Unleashed.

It's honestly a silly notion really. The demand for a Colors remaster was certainly there, so acting like it's mainly for the "casual crowd" to the point where arguments against it devolve into "lol press one button", are ludicrous to say the least.

Like, if you dislike Colors, that's fine,  but resorting to trying to drag it down with simply untrue rhetoric just to try and make Unleashed seem like the beacon that it really isn't,  does not work as a good argument on any grounds.

Iizuka quite literally said the main reason they chose Colors was due to the recent fans they got with the movie's success and  they want to build on that. 

It's not "making shit up" if the literal producer of the series is saying it from his own mouth. 

 

Like come the fuck on with this. 

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Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon
1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

Iizuka quite literally said the main reason they chose Colors was due to the recent fans they got with the movie's success and  they want to build on that. 

That's not necessarily a casual crowd thing only. So it's still ridiculous to try and claim that there's no fan value off of them. 

So I acknowledge that not all fans may appreciate or like them? Sure. But not really gonna take the idea that casuals are the sole leading force that some people are desperate to make it come off as.

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6 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

That's not necessarily a casual crowd thing only. So it's still ridiculous to try and claim that there's no fan value off of them. 

So I acknowledge that not all fans may appreciate or like them? Sure. But not really gonna take the idea that casuals are the sole leading force that some people are desperate to make it come off as.

Fans have been very vocal for years about what they want dude; I never said Sonic Colors doesn't have its fans, no shit it does, everything does. 

But the primary Iizuka and staff decided to remaster that game over anything else is due both to the positive reception it had, and to gain more people where weren't already fans. That's the demographic that they want. 

 

Are certain Adventure fans fucking stupid about what they want and act like overgrown manbabies about it? Absolutely, but it's pretty plain as day what demographic Sega wants for Sonic and I don't see what the issue is in pointing that out. Sonic Colors is one of the most casual Sonic games a person can play, I completely understand why it has its fans and why its such a popular game with the general populace, so no, calling Colors a "casual game" is not some thinly veiled insult...at least from me it isn't. 

I call Sonic Colors a casual game because that's what it is, and even the game developers agreed with it. Don't conflate certain fans being dumb with the game NOT being super casual, because a large part of its appeal is the fact that it sheds a lot of the controversial aspects that people had a problem with from before. 

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Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon
15 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

calling Colors a "casual game" is not some thinly veiled insult...at least from me it isn't. 

I mean, good for you, but let's not act like there aren't rowdy folk who do try to use that as a means to dunk on the games and any fans who like them.

17 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Fans have been very vocal for years about what they want dude; I never said Sonic Colors doesn't have its fans,

Mind you, my critiques aren't aimed at the likes of you, so I don't know why you're setting off into me like I accused you of such.

If you believe that, then I'm afraid you're mistaken. 

18 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

But the primary Iizuka and staff decided to remaster that game over anything else is due both to the positive reception it had, and to gain more people where weren't already fans. That's the demographic that they want. 

Attracting people who weren't fans doesn't always make something casual friendly. It can also be attributed to just being good enough a game for that.

Not that attracting casuals is a problem, despite how some people treat it like it is.

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Yes, and we rightfully call those people out for being stupid idiots :V

Once again, there's nothing wrong with calling Sonic Colors a casual game, and I think the fact people take that as a sort of insult is the problem here. Just because something is casual is "for dumb babies" or that hardcore fans can't appreciate it. 

Yea, I personally don't care for such casual experiences, but that doesn't mean I don't recognize the value in them. If you do have people use that a means to dunk on the people who like the game, then rightfully tell them to fuck off. 

 

And besides...the game came out, people like the game despite everything. Nothing people say about Sonic Colors will change the fact that people like it and will continue to like it. I could hate Sonic Colors with all of my heart and it wouldn't change anything about its critical reception being positive. 

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Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon
2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Yes, and we rightfully call those people out for being stupid idiots :V

So again, I don't see why you got mad at me and assumed I was talking about you.

You're obviously not one of the folk desperate to try and tear Colors down just because they view it as a casual detriment of the series or something to be ashamed.

You're also not saying stuff like Colors is "brrrr. Press button to win either", so know that my critiques aren't aimed at you, but do still call out inane arguments made against the game.

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Ngl, this feels like a lot of No True Scotsman being thrown around.

Ultimately, making the series accessible and newcomer friendly brings in new players, which brings in new customers. This is VERY important considering the last major game release was back in 2017, so playing it safe with Sonic Colors makes sense financially.

Shame the Switch version is so broken, though.

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Johnster4
2 hours ago, Dreadknux said:

I mean, Sonic Colors is a "casual Sonic game" in the same way that Sonic 1, Sonic 2, Sonic 3&K, Sonic Mania, Sonic Generations are "casual Sonic games". In that, they are good Sonic games? That are approachable? That everyone can enjoy? They use a colour palette? If Sonic Colors is a 'casual' game, then it follows that almost everything outside of Sonic Adventure 2 - Unleashed era are also casual Sonic games, as they have the exact same aesthetic, approach and market appeal

My definition of a casual Sonic game like Colours and Forces is one where you don't have to put any effort into beating the game and freely handing out S ranks, the Ideal solution is that you should bet an A-B rank at best on your first try for a casual but but if you want to aim for an S Rank you should fully master that level which Adventure 1 & 2 did so well, a game like that can be good, approachable, something everyone can enjoy, and at the same time give long term fans a game that is difficult to master.

2 hours ago, Dreadknux said:

Iizuka obviously pointed to the movie and 'attracting new fans to the franchise' in justifying Ultimate's release

 

1 hour ago, Mega said:

Ultimately, making the series accessible and newcomer friendly brings in new players, which brings in new customers. This is VERY important considering the last major game release was back in 2017, so playing it safe with Sonic Colors makes sense financially

This wouldn't be a problem is this wasn't repeated for every game that released since the original colours,  I'm willing to bet he will say the exact same thing about the 2022 game, and it will be another game that will be too easy in order appeal to newcomers at the expense of older players.

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Dreadknux
4 minutes ago, Johnster4 said:

My definition of a casual Sonic game like Colours and Forces is one where you don't have to put any effort into beating the game and freely handing out S ranks, the Ideal solution is that you should bet an A-B rank at best on your first try for a casual but but if you want to aim for an S Rank you should fully master that level which Adventure 1 & 2 did so well, a game like that can be good, approachable, something everyone can enjoy, and at the same time give long term fans a game that is difficult to master.

It's actually not that easy to get an S Rank in most Colours stages. Just blasting through the stages in boost mode will largely result in a B Rank tops (A if the game's being generous and you get a huge time bonus). Most of the time you need to be thinking about Wisp usage, combo bonuses and Red Star Ring collection in order to get anywhere close to S. And in some stages, finding the best route to get all those things isn't super obvious without repeat plays and exploration.

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Indigo Rush

I get it, I would consider Colors a casual game, but I'm not sure if it's casual in the same way that a cash-grab mobile game is casual, y'know? Sonic Colors does require skill and focus, especially in the latter half (I finally understood the value of Tails Save once I hit Asteroid Coaster). This is especially true if you want to really "complete" it and get all Red Rings and S Ranks. It's going to be a very different and much more difficult experience than a standard run through the main campaign.

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I'll avoid using the term casual again if it keeps the discussion focused. I just wanted to draw a line between the people who like the really shitty sonic games and the people who don't.

What do we call that? On discord I use the terms "galaxy brained" and "enlightened" but I bet that'll cause as much discourse

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2 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I'll avoid using the term casual again if it keeps the discussion focused. I just wanted to draw a line between the people who like the really shitty sonic games and the people who don't.

What do we call that? 

How about "Sonic fans" for those who do and "Sonic fans" for those who don't? 

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4 hours ago, Dreadknux said:

I know you mean well with this sort of statement, but I think it's a little problematic for people to imply (intentionally or otherwise) that certain Sonic games (in this case, Adventure/Unleashed) are somehow the "hardcore" or "non-casual" fans' idea of a good game, or choice for a remaster, however subtle they're being about it.

I mean, Sonic Colors is a "casual Sonic game" in the same way that Sonic 1, Sonic 2, Sonic 3&K, Sonic Mania, Sonic Generations are "casual Sonic games". In that, they are good Sonic games? That are approachable? That everyone can enjoy? They use a colour palette? If Sonic Colors is a 'casual' game, then it follows that almost everything outside of Sonic Adventure 2 - Unleashed era are also casual Sonic games, as they have the exact same aesthetic, approach and market appeal. 

So, I'm really not understanding the logic of having 'casual' and 'hardcore' definitions of Sonic fans. It doesn't make any sense, other than to sow division in an obvious attempt to make Unleashed fans feel a bit better about the fact that their favourite game isn't getting any attention. 😅  So I think we need to have a moratorium on the use of both words - they are not helpful definitions at all.

I'm also not following the logic that only/mostly 'non-fans' like Sonic Colors and that's the reason Ultimate was made; I know people qualified this with "Colors has its fans" but that's a little simplistic. The truth is, Colors is a fantastic game, one that is critically acclaimed, one that is loved by a good number of fans (those who don't seem to be stuck in the Unleashed past anyway) AND one that is interesting enough for non-fans to pick up and play. Rather than just ticking the "non-fans" box, it actually ticks all of the boxes. It was always the perfect candidate for a remaster.

Iizuka obviously pointed to the movie and 'attracting new fans to the franchise' in justifying Ultimate's release - because that's his job, to constantly expand the franchise's audience - but if it wasn't a fantastic game in its own right, adored by a good number of fans within the fanbase, I don't think it would have been a safe choice for a remaster at all. I mean, if you just want a cheap and easy way to bring a colourful game to modern platforms, Sonic Lost World is right there - and in HD - already. They obviously wanted a candidate that was also a historically well-received game. The 'core' fanbase's desires clearly did factor in to their decision in a positive way.

 

This is going to be very difficult to explain, so please bare with me as I try to find the right words for this.

When I call Sonic Colors a casual game, I'm not trying to claim some sense of superiority for liking other games over it and I'm sorry if it comes off that way. And to be honest, this is really only something people who probably spend way too much time and effort into analyzing these games for children are going to care about...I would know, because I am one of these stupid people. 

It's not so much that "good" Sonic games are "casual", because Mania has plenty of depth to it and is one of the most acclaimed games in years. And that's kind of how I feel, it's really a matter of how much depth I feel the game has. Even most of the mediocre Sonic games from over twenty years have something of depth to them, and I feel like that's why they have so much fan support. 

Now yea, "depth" is hella subjective and perhaps fans are just reading too much into shit. But that's just fanbases in a nutshell, I don't think there's a single fandom that doesn't spend most of its time hyper-analyzing the intricacies of their favorite forms of media. And if you're someone who doesn't do that, doesn't make you any less of a fan. 

 

Sonic Colors, to me personally (as, I feel, nobody else) is a game that deliberately stripped itself of any depth that was found in its predecessor, in a misguided attempt at addressing fan criticism. That not  the same as me saying its somehow an inferior product, like you said, it's rather obvious people like Sonic Colors as it is. But when I breakdown both Unleashed and Colors, the former just has a lot more of what I personally (once again, myself) prefer out of the series. I like Sonic Colors, I even have the game pre-ordered and will play it on Tuesday, but there's really nothing there for me to sink my teeth into, because the game, once again, was deliberately stripped down to remove the controversial parts that were brought up from Unleashed.  

We even have a topic pertaining to that, how most of the reviews are brining how much 3D Sonic games have always sucked, but how Colors is "one of the good games" and that just feel like a kick in the nuts to all of the depth previous games have had, It's extremely subjective and ultimately down to the individual obviously, but man, it just really bums out how it sometimes feel like people prefer Sonic playing it as safe as possible as opposed to trying anything outside of the box. 

 

But no, its not some thinly veiled insult towards casual gamers and admittedly I used to be a lot worse about it, but I have to accept that not everyone is going to like this series for the same reasons that I do. Additionally, Sega really only have themselves to blame for continuously putting out mediocre products and having all of their effort go to waste due to a lack of polish and quality control. So I can't exactly blame people for latching onto a game like Sonic Colors in a series that generally struggles to reach the bare minimum of competence.

 

This series is so exhausting to follow man lol. 

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Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon
32 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I just wanted to draw a line between the people who like the really shitty sonic games and the people who don't.

I would hope you aren't going to use the former to describe people who like or prefer Sonic Colors.

I get that you don't like the game, but that would be going too far.

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Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon
5 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

But he's right. 

Not really. Also it wasn't cool how you lit into me for no reason earlier in the thread for no good reason.

Honestly,  the whole "casual" mockery thing from people who don't know better, has become borderline gate-keeping, and pretty much just a detriment to discussion, to try and elevate folk over those who dare like the games.

That there are people childish enough to try using it as an insult, is just embarrassing. 

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"Casual game" is not an insult to the game, I believe. In fact I agree, I think Colors is a beginner gamer friendly title, now made even more kid friendly with the unlimited lives/Tails save features, plus the movie skins are to appeal to most "casual fans" who are now approaching to Sonic after seeing the movie. "Casual fan" is not an insult either.

And I don't mean to generalize or stereotype anything or anyone, but Forces and Colors are both beginner friendly games, because yeah you complete acts easily with not much effort, but it doesn't translate to "it only appeals to kids, casuals and dumb people", now THAT I call offensive and stereotypical. I would argue that most Sonic games are like that, the classics + Mania a bit less because they are genuinely harder to beat (the fucking Death Egg Robot in Sonic 2). Buuuut, even Colors added the Metal Sonic Rival Rush which is quite tough I have to admit, so it's not a black or white situation, Forces meanwhile has got some cheap difficulty areas that were handled pretty badly. This is my take.

I think Colors > Unleashed, I don't think any fans are superior for liking either of them, Unleashed mostly which is what was implied here? But I believe Unleashed is a tougher game, yeah.

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3 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

Not really. Also it wasn't cool how you lit into me for no reason earlier in the thread for no good reason.

Honestly,  the whole "casual" mockery thing from people who don't know better, has become borderline gate-keeping, and pretty much just a detriment to discussion, to try and elevate folk over those who dare like the games.

Wasn't really my intention to tear into you (and in fact, I don't think I was), I just have a blunt and to the point way of speaking when I'm trying to get a point across. If you took it that way, then I apologize. 

If I have a point to make, I do my best to emphasize it so that it can't be misconstrued. 

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If anything at this point I think I use "casual" more positively than "hardcore". Hardcore fans got the brain worms.

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