The IDW Shadow Topic

[IWriteAlright]

The sonic channel story is interesting. It isn't the best shadow ever but he's better. Mostly because the writer decided to actually have him tell us why Shadow does what he does and has him doing something he wants to do and less embroiled in someone else story. Its actually a better introduction to the character than the comics to be quite plain. Hopefully the comics actually do something like that.
All that said people had varying opinions on that shadow. We usually don't see this side of things , but we got to see Japanese reactions this time. And a bunch of them were not positive, they felt like his shadow was a bit too angsty and should have been more strait forward. I would be curious to know how Japanese fans feel about shadow in the book itself.

Something I see in this discussion often is " well Shadow's a side character now" and that's strange to me for two reasons.

One, that's not how story telling works, You get to choose who the story is about. There are stories in this book that focus on " side characters" like the chaotix, silver, blaze even the newer comic made ones. You can just do the same for shadow.

The second issue is, that's not exactly true?

Shadow is apart of the core: Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Eggman, Shadow and Metal Sonic. They get the most merch, they get to be in stuff first and  there's a really good chance shadow is the teaser at the end of the next movie. His mandates and how numerous they are is result of that as well. Importance isn't an issue.   And popularity isn't an issue because he can most certainly sell a book.

For me , why that sonic channel story works is because its properly introduces shadow, lets him look good and explains why he's here. Shadow hasn't had that in the book. I don't think you can redo a first impression and this shadow has left a pretty bad one. However, you ccan improve him and get him to a place where people aren't wondering why this character even exists.

This is a situation I feel where the authors are a bit too close. They both have attempted to take shortcuts so they don't have to deal with all of shadow's issues. But I think they need to bite the bullet and reintroduce him. 
You are now imagining a version of Jay-Z's public service announcement but about shadow the hedgehog
 

[Red Hot Jack]

11 hours ago, dudebro1993 said:

If the rumours are true and Rangers is an open world focusing on combat, then maybe Shadow can be playable. He is a perfect fit with his Chaos abilities!

I know we literally know only leaks about Rangers, but it kinda seems like it's a Sonic only adventure due to being on an unknown island. Just saying, I wouldn't expect a lot of characters even as NPC.

[IWriteAlright]

One more thing. A few months ago Evan answered a question on her tumble in regards to her feelings about shadow and rouge and what their relationship is. To summarize they work romantically and platonically and she really likes what they do for each other rouge gets shadow to a be a bit more casual and focus a bit more and shadow makes rouge generally a better person. I agree with this take. However the most interesting bit is at the end she says and i'm paraphrasing because I cannot find the post at the moment


"Their dynamic is still the same even in the idw comic despite issues with "team dark"



Now this is weird because it contradicts all information that we have gotten before and even information we have gotten recently through the recent sonic channel stories and character summaries.  I have 3 scenarios running through my head

1) The thoughts and stories expressed in the sonic channel have no actual bearing on how the series is released and sold at all  and are basically the feelings of those who write them. This is the most logical option. They are side stories not translated in English you get for free, Ian has been told things directly like " team dark only exists to sell merch " which is very clear admission of selling material in ways contradictory to other aspects of the brand itself. I'm not inclined to believe this however, as mentioned the guy who wrote these sonic channel stories was the character supervisor on sonic forces, and is overseeing how the characters are portrayed in the book. I'm inclined to believe his word carries a bit more weight than that.

2)They both are just fronting and are hella tsun. This is very possible and still works within their already established dynamic and allows them to be " friends or more" and not be without actually being that, albeit worse execution. I don't think this is the case because of the Specific description of team dark in the rouge sonic channel story that apparently no one read. Like I saw no one talking about this, or tweeting about it at all. Maybe rouge isn't that popular? Dunno. But in the story description of rouge team dark is described as " Undesirable but inseparable " which to me lines up with her own reasoning as to why she is working with shadow in in TSR after knuckles calls him untrustworthy " She just wants to win ". Similar to shadow's reasoning they are a means to an end. This could be her being tsun , but I don't think so because the sonic channel character description that came with the story isn't written with her voice. And despite team dark being the main association of her character for most of her characters existence outside of topaz, its an small footnote at the end of the description where its called " undesirable" which says a lot without saying much.

3) Sega didn't really catch what even was doing in her writing and may catch her at an unfortunate point later. This is what I think is going on and is something I think happened to Ian all the way in year one as he admitted himself. It was after he had written shadow's first issue and we would assume was writing his next appearance he had brushed upon the walls around shadows character or in his words " he started to notice things were different " . I think this is a similar situation. The sonic channel story, the people communicating the information to Ian not only denoted they weren't friends and were never a team but also specifically spelled out their proximity to each other was to sell things. Even Tyson Hesse on sonic retro made a note in a conversation about characterization in general that the focus seemed to be more so as shadow as a singular entity rather than the three being a team and the three being friends. Rouge and Shadow in chao bases don't actually talk to each other about anything really, even rouges appeal to shadow doesn't reference anything that would specifically indicate they had a background. The closest thing you get is rouge saying something along the lines of " He seems down right cordial " in response to shadow's standing in the middle of the goddamn road telling amy to buzz off and then running off in the night.  Which can easily be read as sarcasm rather than knowing the guy. I think it was a situation where it didn't set off any alerts rather than it being ok in sega's eyes. An example might be when sega themselves suggested Ian reference the "romance" between vanilla and vector in sonic x. This is something they aren't going to do any material they have a serious commitment to, however it is a call back and shadow and rouge even communicating could be for them just a call back so they didn't pick it up a means to sell merch.  (also because I think they might care a bit less about the girl characters) . But If this is trying o build to something more, I think it may end poorly because we will eventually run into aforementioned issues.

This could be nothing, we could read a story in the next few months that cements that they still have that dynamic. But every other bit of information contradicts this so that tumblr post whether its accurate or not is a very curious bit of information

[dudebro1993]

5 hours ago, Jack-al said:

I know we literally know only leaks about Rangers, but it kinda seems like it's a Sonic only adventure due to being on an unknown island. Just saying, I wouldn't expect a lot of characters even as NPC.

If that's true, I won't be buying or even renting the game. If it doesn't have Shadow in it, I have no use for it. I'm sick of Sonic only games.

[Kazhnuz]

16 minutes ago, IWriteAlright said:

Sega didn't really catch what even was doing in her writing and may catch her at an unfortunate point later. This is what I think is going on and is something I think happened to Ian all the way in year one as he admitted himself

On that point, IIRC Evan said somewhere that she had to modify things for Shadow, though. So I'm not sure that it's that they didn't really catch what she was doing as she had to handle some transformation to do. Especially as nearly always, Rouge is shown as the one that can the most go toward Shadow, even if he is kinda difficult with her too. So there might be some kind of "different" connection between them than between other, but maybe not one that they think as "friendship".

So I think that it's mostly that it's kinda difficult to know what they really want exactly with Shadow. Especially as the stuff like "undeasirable but unseparable" might also have somewhat different implication in japanese and in english. So it's for me kinda difficult to really analyse things with this sentence.

[Dr. Mechano]

1 hour ago, dudebro1993 said:

If that's true, I won't be buying or even renting the game. If it doesn't have Shadow in it, I have no use for it. I'm sick of Sonic only games.

He was playable in Forces. In fact, he was the only playable character in Forces who wasn’t either some variant of Sonic or a nameless shell.

Whether or not he’s in Rangers (playable or otherwise), I’d say Shadow’s still getting plenty of attention.

(Though I mean, I get it. Favorite characters mean a lot to people. Like, I’m almost certainly not going to bother getting a Sonic game that Eggman isn’t in, rare though they may be.)

[Zoomzeta]

I don't think any other character other than Sonic being Playable or not should be the make or break moment for Rangers guys.

[dudebro1993]

2 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

He was playable in Forces. In fact, he was the only playable character in Forces who wasn’t either some variant of Sonic or a nameless shell.

Whether or not he’s in Rangers (playable or otherwise), I’d say Shadow’s still getting plenty of attention.

(Though I mean, I get it. Favorite characters mean a lot to people. Like, I’m almost certainly not going to bother getting a Sonic game that Eggman isn’t in, rare though they may be.)

The fact that Shadow was in Forces, made me rent the game on PS4 & Switch and buy the game on Sale on Steam. 

1 hour ago, Zoomzeta said:

I don't think any other character other than Sonic being Playable or not should be the make or break moment for Rangers guys.

It's to let SEGA know I don't want Sonic only games anymore. Individually it won't do much but it's the principle that counts. that's why I won't bother with Colors. 

[IWriteAlright]

I think that's a very valid reason to not play. Personally speaking the 3d sonic games as games haven't been above aggressively mediocre since generations. They don't offer much, but the reason I played forces is because I could play as shadow. If it wasn't for that I wouldn't have bothered. It being make or break isn't outlandish when you think about what the games have been. If i'm gonna waste me time with another unsatisfactory title, i can at least do it with a character i like. Sonic himself in the games hasn't been that great or interesting in the games in quite a while either. So even he isn't much of a draw when I can get better versions  of him in other media.

So I get it. That said if rumored are to believed , though I don't think all of them should be, the game isn't great so it has other issues.

@Kazhnuz
I think the reason that rouge was that character was because the author was inclined and sega just views that as a call back. I could be wrong, but the line " team dark only exists to sell merch " is very explicit. And Ian has talked about in the past getting notes suggesting call backs to things they will never advertise in their games. They may have just viewed that moment as a call back whilst Evan is planning for more.

As for what they want to do with him? This is speculation, but I feel as though the "core" I mentioned before is important. Sonic Tails Knuckles Amy Eggman  Metal Sonic and Shadow. Each one of them has a role, you have your title hero, your tough strong jock, your tech exposition guy, your all arounder and girl of the group, the main bad guy and his top minion. Then you have shadow. Where does shadow fit into this, I think they want him to be dark hero. They need him to be alone and potentially on call for whenever you need him to show up look cool and kick butt. You need to save the hero, there you go. Need a secret playable character that isn't that different than the protagonist to help save our game, there you go. Instant crowd pleaser pop when he shows up , there you go. And he's popular enough if you just want him to do his own thing, he can do is own thing.
( I was going to use the term " alt hero" but that is the name of a very bad very bigoted comic so dark hero should suffice)

By now you have noticed this is the role he had, before. But very simplified. And this is true , but have you considered that sega is so incompetent that the idea just making him show up alone and be slightly more aggressive wasn't enough and they decided they wanted to delete whole sections of his character because nuance is to them like oil is to water? Have you considered it? I have very little trouble believing that this company would be ok with shadow and rouge talking because they think it is a call back , but the moment you try to let them have a conversation that would indicate they might actually care about each other even in the most minor way they would stop you. Because if Sega functioned under any type of reasonable logic this thread wouldn't exist. A lot of our gripes wouldn't exist.

To connect both responses, I just don't trust sega to make reasonable decisions in regards to this franchise anymore. And i'm totally willing to believe that they have come up with a completely convoluted set of rules that could have been solved with " maybe he shows up by himself and is slightly angrier but for a good reason " 

[Kazhnuz]

Mmh, I don't think that they would have accepted it as callback everytime it appeared, as Rouge was nearly all the time accepted as "the only that Shadow somewhat listen sometimes". And that they explicitly show her caring for Shadow, being hurt, or stuff like that. Is they just wanted a little callback, they would try to limit that even more. So I think that they are more accepting that because they don't see it as contrary of their vision of Shadow.

Sameway, I don't think that they simply want no nuance, as they shown some in that Sonic Channel story (complete with an explanation of his motivation), and that even Evans managed to put some in CR&BB.

 

So I think that it's more that for them, all that is simply compatible with their vision of Shadow, and with Shadow being the "edgy powerful guy that'll save the hero".

And all that is not considering one other hypothesis that kinda break all our hypothesis : maybe that it's not always the same and it evolve. How Shadow is in his Sonic Channel story might be a bit of an effect of Shadow's controversies, same for them accepting him being able to introspect a bit post-MV.

There is also the possibilities of Evan Stanley's managing to get better what she want, either because SEGA is more in tune with what she want, or because she handle differently SEGA's notes.

[Zoomzeta]

7 hours ago, dudebro1993 said:

The fact that Shadow was in Forces, made me rent the game on PS4 & Switch and buy the game on Sale on Steam. 

It's to let SEGA know I don't want Sonic only games anymore. Individually it won't do much but it's the principle that counts. that's why I won't bother with Colors. 

Really? That stretching it considering the remake had several more noteworthy issues on the technical side of things.

[dudebro1993]

12 hours ago, Zoomzeta said:

Really? That stretching it considering the remake had several more noteworthy issues on the technical side of things.

The bugs made sure that I wouldn't bother with it anyway. 

[Red Hot Jack]

I like the Shadow & Rouge dynamic/friendship and the way Evan describes it, she is genuinely passionate about the characters, she pushed to get Shadow to stay in the arc after Sega rejected her idea of him participating to the Chao races, he was still in the arc with modifications, I really appreciated her attempt and it was still the best Shadow interpretation in the book besides his realisation in issue 31. I rather liked it, he initially didn't care about letting other people die because he was focussed on his revenge on Starline but Rouge got him to think for a second, he fought as a hero alongside Sonic and saved people's butt twice in the arc, he even cared for the Shadow Chao. That is a win in my book.

Sadly Ian is so done with Sega's mandates he is sick of writing Shadow with so many restrictions, I get it. Still, he should try too like Evan.

[EmTiven01]

Remember when I talked about mandates causing Shadow's character to degrade even further in the main IDW Sonic thread?

What do you think would be the fan reactions if he DOES become what I described: a callous, self-centered douchebag who treats everyone around him like trash, does morally dubious deeds, and blames everyone else for his mistakes?

[Diogenes]

Well this is just my personal take on the subject, but I think if a character was written really, really badly, then people would not like it.

[EmTiven01]

True, but just imagine if it's something that even Sega thinks is going too far.

[Kuzu]

Bad ideas are bad, moving on.

[IWriteAlright]

I'm going to post this here and in the main thread if you all don't mind. Occasionally we all miss details that could elaborate on a lot, this is one of them. Out in the open

 

Some may suggest this might be obvious from recent interviews , but it was not. There was still speculation because of the differences in character in each parts of the world. So i guess going forward now that this information is in writing , whatever criticisms we have can proper context behind them and the possible motivations behind the people making them. Like say, not knowing what the other parts of the world want and being so up your own rear, notoriously so, you can't be bothered to listen to the people you have hired and your audience telling you this isn't the case.

 

[dudebro1993]

 

On 9/10/2021 at 3:06 PM, dudebro1993 said:

If that's true, I won't be buying or even renting the game. If it doesn't have Shadow in it, I have no use for it. I'm sick of Sonic only games.

Since Sonic Frontiers seems to be Sonic only, I won't buy the game unfortunately. How long do we have to wait for Shadow to be playable ffs. He would work great if the game focuses on combat as well as speed.

[Zoomzeta]

8 hours ago, dudebro1993 said:

 

Since Sonic Frontiers seems to be Sonic only, I won't buy the game unfortunately. How long do we have to wait for Shadow to be playable ffs. He would work great if the game focuses on combat as well as speed.

Since last game? Don't know. But that really shouldn't be the hill to die on in regards to whether you should buy this game or not. But that's my opinion.