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'Sonic Frontiers' Trademarked by SEGA


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TBH, I would still say that there is a difference between Shadow and Mighty/Ray, in how they work, as Shadow doesn't really have a different ability, it's more a different gimmick that happens in its level. ( And Mania still also have Knuckles and Tails too. )

Honestly, I'm also thinking that we won't have different character in Frontiers, but mostly because I'm not sure it would suit that well with some element of game design that are insuinated by the only leak that I believe a bit (the original one), so I don't think it would be wise to have both (at least not in the first game in this style).

But all in all, "different character" is just a decision that is related to the game design. This decision to have them or not would be dictated by the biggest question of "what is Sonic Rangers".

 

The question I'm more thinking about, if the openworld is true, is more how it'll be constructed, and what will be its content.

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CertifiedNobody
5 minutes ago, Zaysho said:


1) I said "mainline" so why TSR, a racing spin-off not developed by Sonic Team that better have multiple characters is brought up for your point is beyond me.

2) Yeah, sure, Mania did that. Mania was also outsourced to a team that has studied the Genesis games inside-out and created a love letter to that era, designing the characters directly off of their original source material with personal touches that includes Mighty and Ray DLC.

What did Sonic Team do with Forces? A stripped down version of boost Sonic with a grappling hook and a Shadow reskin they didn't bother to finish animating? Even if Metal was going to be in Colors HD, he would've been a reskin, something they did way back in SADX, especially because there's not a whole lot else you can do in a game Sega and BSG were already butchering. This is just seeing a pattern and setting expectations accordingly until Sega actually says something. No one, even me in the post you quoted, said they can't or won't, just that they don't see it happening. The last time I raised my hopes for this kind of thing, I got a character creator and a worse Classic Sonic in a game that put Knuckles and Tails on the fucking box.

Still approved and promoted by Sega.

Still approved and promoted by Sega, and was such a big success they greenlit DLC for it that was marketed around the return of two more characters.

Doesn't matter if you liked it or if you think the other characters were used well. That isn't the point. The point is that Sega focuses on other characters than Sonic, and they did. Episode Shadow and the Avatar were also the most popular part of the game.

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10 minutes ago, Kazhnuz said:

TBH, I would still say that there is a difference between Shadow and Mighty/Ray, in how they work, as Shadow doesn't really have a different ability, it's more a different gimmick that happens in its level.

That's basically what Mighty has too. His ability has no worth in the base Mania levels and only marginally more in the Encore levels. I only remember the forced encounter in Angel Island and one example in Green Hill. Tails, Knuckles, and Ray add something. Mighty will save if you accidentally land on a spike but only if you were already jumping. 

If Mighty was like this in literally any other game, it would be as derided as Shadow in Forces is being now. But Mania was made with real heart and passion so therefore Mighty was made with heart and passion... in all his ground pound glory.

Mind you, I don't even think Mighty not having much is bad, but I don't think Shadow in Forces is bad either, but apparently one is good and one is bad despite being identical in purpose and role.

But yea, Mania also has Tails and Knuckles. Though they are just... how they played in the originals. Bit harder to do that with the boosts because there is no precedent of alternate characters. 

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CertifiedNobody
2 minutes ago, Kazhnuz said:

Honestly, I'm also thinking that we won't have different character in Frontiers, but mostly because I'm not sure it would suit that well with some element of game design that are insuinated by the only leak that I believe a bit (the original one), so I don't think it would be wise to have both.

I don't see how it'd be difficult at all. It's just Sonic but with one or two unique abilities and maybe lower acceleration/top speed. As I said before, Sonic Adventure did it, and that had to rebuild Sonic's gameplay from scratch for the 3D era.

1 minute ago, NoKaine said:

But yea, Mania also has Tails and Knuckles. Though they are just... how they played in the originals. Bit harder to do that with the boosts because there is no precedent of alternate characters. 

There was Blaze but that was 2D. 

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2 minutes ago, CertifiedNobody said:

As I said before, Sonic Adventure did it, and that had to rebuild Sonic's gameplay from scratch for the 3D era.

Adventure falls into the "Sonic Team was confident" option; they pretty much nailed Sonic's gameplay immediately, so making flying Sonic and gliding, digging Sonic and slow Sonic and fishing Sonic(????) wouldn't be too hard.

Hard to say if that will be the case for Frontiers. It would be easier and more forgivable if it's a new gameplay style, which is why no one complained too much when Unleashed made Sonic the only one playable.

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25 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

Wait, so, the Avatar having basically a fundamentally different gameplay style is bad, but also Shadow being identical to Sonic is bad too? What do you actually want? What is even this "didn't finish animating" business anyway?

You can't play as Shadow in levels with in-level cutscenes and/or in any of the Tag Team levels. This is presumably because of the animations--Shadow of course is very similar to Sonic, but if swapping the model didn't cause issues there's no real reason for that limitation to exist, so I have to assume that it broke something or other and they didn't want to fix it.

 

Also this is minor but Shadow doesn't really have the LW style homing attack. It's tied to a specific enemy that only appears in the Episode Shadow levels.

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4 minutes ago, Celestia said:

You can't play as Shadow in levels with either in-level cutscenes and/or in any of the Tag Team levels. This is presumably because of the animations--Shadow of course is very similar to Sonic, but if swapping the model didn't cause issues there's no real reason for that limitation to exist, so I have to assume that it broke something or other and they didn't want to fix it.

Shadow not being playable in those instances has likely more to do with story than the lack of implementation. Can't justify him palling with the Avatar. Same reason why you don't have Super Sonic in the Tag Team levels.

Of course that would mean that they chose not to make these animations, but it was a choice, not it being unfinished. If the game was delayed and polished more it would likely still be the case.

Forces' story is not good or involved by any stretch,  but there was more of an effort to make the gameplay and the story intertwine.

4 minutes ago, Celestia said:

Also this is minor but Shadow doesn't really have the LW style homing attack. It's tied to a specific enemy that only appears in the Episode Shadow levels.

That is legit interesting. Makes sense since no enemies work in that fashion in Sonic's levels.

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22 minutes ago, CertifiedNobody said:

I don't see how it'd be difficult at all. It's just Sonic but with one or two unique abilities and maybe lower acceleration/top speed. As I said before, Sonic Adventure did it, and that had to rebuild Sonic's gameplay from scratch for the 3D era.

It's more that according to the first leak, there are some game design elements that scream "one character".

- First, the skill tree. It's something that make the character have more abilities, and that for what have been said seems to look more like something that would need more than just "one or two unique abilities" (especially as it's never just "one or two unique abilities", it also need game design work)

- Other some elements looks more like "one character" to me, like the Gosth Girl that seems pretty much the kind of things to do to make the main character less "alone", a bit like Chip in Unleashed, Shara in Secret Rings, etc. (Auto-objection : Black Knight had some level with other characters, and they're)

I'm not saying that it is 100% impossible that there is other character. Just that from what I've seen from the initial leak, it seems to me that there are more chanced that they would prefer a Sonic-only game-design (or maybe something à la Sonic Heroes/Sonic+Avatar, but we would know it now). It's just an analysis based on that first leak, and I feel that for the moment, it's would not be the best way to handle this game design. Again, it doesn't mean "0%" chances. Just that for me, it's not the highest probability, and that I wouldn't bet on it.

 

( Also protip : often, it is difficult. Adding stuff always add work, and more than just "adding the abilities". It's like features. It's always more work than just "'add it" or "add the option". Always. There is no such thing as "just an option/feature". Nope. Not at all. )

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10 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

Wait, so, the Avatar having basically a fundamentally different gameplay style is bad, but also Shadow being identical to Sonic is bad too? What do you actually want? What is even this "didn't finish animating" business anyway?

I know Mania is the Only Good Sonic Game, but Mighty and Ray aren't particularly inspired design either. Mighty has a highly situational and borderline useless ability (the ground pound) as evidently they couldn't actually think of anything new to bring and Ray is Bubsy and derivative of Tails. 

Mighty can jump on spikes. Shadow can Sonic Lost World homing attack enemies. They are the same level of "reskin."

It's cute you're putting words in my fucking mouth because all I said about Mania was "love letter to the Genesis era" because that's literally what it was, or the stupid hoops you jump through to prop up Sonic Team because I described their own efforts as they actually were. The avatar is just a stripped down version of boost Sonic (basically sans the boost) for the grappling hook/Wispon. Shadow is an unfinished reskin because he is playable in most of Sonic's levels but they didn't bother to make unique animations for him in QTE segments so they just didn't include him in those for no reason. They did the same thing with Super Sonic where he reverts and transforms before and after those sequences and tried to charge for it before fans told Sega to pound sand.

Nothing I said was even remotely derogatory or meant as meanspirited, let alone meant to gas Mania--a game I don't care about as strongly as most of the fandom does even when I really liked it at launch--and the only way to read that into it is if you willfully need to defend poor little Sonic Team (this time I'm being mean, just so we're clear) and you just need to talk shit about it in return.

26 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

Their point isn't that Team Sonic Racing has multiple characters, it's that Team Sonic Racing explicitly made having different characters a core part of its gameplay. Which is towards their argument that SEGA is slowly allowing multiple playable characters. Mind you that Team Sonic Racing cut out the other SEGA characters, likely because SEGA believed that Sonic and his cast can carry a game.

The quality of these characters don't actually matter. The point is that we are in an age where SEGA actually lets you play as a character that isn't Sonic or a variant of Sonic, and that bodes well for Frontiers (though obviously not a guarantee and even I'm skeptical myself).

Yes. A racing spin-off that better have multiple characters. You quoted the post, you know what I was actually saying. It's not some secret you have to decipher. I called it what it is.

29 minutes ago, CertifiedNobody said:

Still approved and promoted by Sega.

Still approved and promoted by Sega, and was such a big success they greenlit DLC for it that was marketed around the return of two more characters.

Doesn't matter if you liked it or if you think the other characters were used well. That isn't the point. The point is that Sega focuses on other characters than Sonic, and they did. Episode Shadow and the Avatar were also the most popular part of the game.

lol

"Sega approved it, your points are invalid."

Okay.

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Oh my god all of you. Could you all please shut up for a second and stop debating on stuff with no tangible info.

Let's just assume Sonic, the main character of this franchise, is the 1 character we know at least to be playable and that the title gives credence to the fact that this new title is leaning towards a more open world setting. 

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CertifiedNobody
19 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

Adventure falls into the "Sonic Team was confident" option; they pretty much nailed Sonic's gameplay immediately, so making flying Sonic and gliding, digging Sonic and slow Sonic and fishing Sonic(????) wouldn't be too hard.

Hard to say if that will be the case for Frontiers. It would be easier and more forgivable if it's a new gameplay style, which is why no one complained too much when Unleashed made Sonic the only one playable.

Regardless of if Sonic Team is confident, I wouldn't be surprised it the higher ups at Sega decided "The movies and that Mania game reviewers like have those Tails and Knuckles guys. Put them in the game."

4 minutes ago, Kazhnuz said:

It's more that according to the first leak, there are some game design elements that scream "one character".

- First, the skill tree. It's something that make the character have more abilities, and that for what have been said seems to look more like something that would need more than just "one or two unique abilities" (especially as it's never just "one or two unique abilities", it also need game design work)

- Other some elements looks more like "one character" to me, like the Gosth Girl that seems pretty much the kind of things to do to make the main character less "alone", a bit like Chip in Unleashed, Shara in Secret Rings, etc. (Auto-objection : Black Knight had some level with other characters, and they're)

I'm not saying that it is 100% impossible that there is other character. Just that from what I've seen from the initial leak, it seems to me that there are more chanced that they would prefer a Sonic-only game-design (or maybe something à la Sonic Heroes/Sonic+Avatar, but we would know it now). It's just an analysis based on what I seen, and I feel that for the moment, it's would not be the best way to handle this game design.

 

( Also protip : often, it is difficult. Adding stuff always add work, and more than just "adding the abilities". It's like features. It's always more work than just "'add it" or "add the option". Always. There is no such thing as "just an option/feature". Nope. Not at all. )

-The skill tree could be shared between all characters, or changed heavily between the demos and release. It's very possible that it'll be dropped depending on how far along the game was when the demos were played.

-Conversely, the ghost girl could be similar to Tikal or Elise, where she's there for a story role. We haven't been given much detail, and the little we know about her assisting in a boss fight could've been just for the demo or completely changed by release.

And I'm not denying that adding other characters is challenging, but I feel like a lot of people are assuming that adding more characters means making a new playstyle from scratch rather than building off of Sonic like the classic and adventure games did.

6 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

lol

"Sega approved it, your points are invalid."

Okay.

Well yeah. If Sega didn't want the focus to be on Sonic's friends... Then maybe they would've changed it, and maybe not allowed DLC adding more non-Sonic characters? Or greenlit animated shorts starring Sonic's friends? Sonic's friends are being pushed the hardest they've been in over a decade.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, CertifiedNobody said:

Well yeah. If Sega didn't want the focus to be on Sonic's friends... Then maybe they would've changed it, and maybe not allowed DLC adding more non-Sonic characters? Or greenlit animated shorts starring Sonic's friends? Sonic's friends are being pushed the hardest they've been in over a decade.

Maybe read my posts and the actual reasoning I make instead of this desperate jabbing people like you and NoKaine need to do for people -checks notes- expecting the bare minimum from Sonic Team based on past entries. They've dangled Sonic's friends in our faces for decades, the games in the past ten years that aren't spin-offs have not delivered on using them. They're only available in alternate media and spin-off games. It's kind of hard to expect it when they actively choose not to do it and put in half-measures. That is the point.

This isn't hard.

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Dr. Detective Mike

All I have to say at the moment is that the "S" at the end of these names always sound awkward to me. I feel like "Sonic Force" or "Sonic Frontier" might just roll off the tongue better even if it doesn't necessarily invoke the sense that there are many "frontiers" or many "forces" like they want.

That's it though. I don't have much else to say about this. Just like with "Rangers" I'm not even comfortable calling it by this name yet until the people in charge give us the title themselves.

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Red Hot Jack
23 minutes ago, CertifiedNobody said:

Regardless of if Sonic Team is confident, I wouldn't be surprised it the higher ups at Sega decided "The movies and that Mania game reviewers like have those Tails and Knuckles guys. Put them in the game."

This. I feel like they might be confident again, they are aware people like the cast and want to see them used, but it also depends on the game, really. If it works, why not, if we believe this game has a budget, it's possible but I won't hold my breath for more characters, the premise does seem to be a solo Sonic adventure with a focus on something else. 

Forces just had weird decisions to try and fail to cash in on the whole fanbase, a dumb move. 

The one thing that makes me feel Tails and Knuckles have a chance here is they are the focus of movie 2 and there might be movie skins again. 

"The devs are lazy" is such a generalization, each game is a different case, Forces was dumb and lazy, okay, Lost World was polished but flopped for the Wii U failure and Nintendo deal. Mania is amazing, Sega ruined relationship with Evening Star, this one is on them. With Colors Ultimate... no idea, Blind Squirrel was the dev Team but how did the Sega higher ups let that game release unfinished? They don't care probably.

Team Sonic Racing was abandoned because it was already delayed for a year to polish it, they wanted to be done with it and after the Super Sonic DLC fiasco for Forces they insisted on not having DLC there.

What else? Boom was doomed to fail, it was an unliked reboot and the Wii U exclusivity killed the original version. 

They can ruin Frontiers too. But who knows? The game isn't even officially shown, it's too early to say. 

In my opinion this is less about defending Sonic Team, I don't care about that, and more about hoping the next game is good. Call me an idiot for that, I'm aware of the risk of being disappointed. I'm a Sonic fan after all.

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Because Sonic Frontiers is a new style of gameplay and none of the leaks have mentioned anything even remotely close to Sonic's friends being playable, it's safe to assume it's a Sonic only title. I don't see the problem with coming to this conclusion, and I'm not sure why the tone policing for people wary/disappointed in how this is looking is necessary.


Personally I think it might be for the best overall that it's Sonic only and if I were interested in defending the game I'd talk up the merits of going that route. There are plenty! It's a valid creative decision even if it's one I disagree with.

I wouldn't just pretend the last 10 years didn't happen, and I definitely wouldn't bother bringing up games that weren't developed by Sonic team or racing spinoffs that have to have other characters in them in order to function.

Or at least, they do for now. Maybe the wisps and the zeti will make up the roster for the next racer. Count Sonic Tails and Eggman and that's over 20 options!

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CertifiedNobody
46 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

Maybe read my posts and the actual reasoning I make instead of this desperate jabbing people like you and NoKaine need to do for people -checks notes- expecting the bare minimum from Sonic Team based on past entries.

Alright, let me double check in case I missed something.

1 hour ago, Zaysho said:

1) I said "mainline" so why TSR, a racing spin-off not developed by Sonic Team that better have multiple characters is brought up for your point is beyond me.

It's already been explained to you that it isn't about Sonic characters appearing, it's about Sega supporting the idea of them being the game's main gimmick and focus of the marketing and animated shorts. That wouldn't have happened when Colors and Lost World released.

1 hour ago, Zaysho said:

2) Yeah, sure, Mania did that. Mania was also outsourced to a team that has studied the Genesis games inside-out and created a love letter to that era, designing the characters directly off of their original source material with personal touches that includes Mighty and Ray DLC.

So was Sonic 4 and Sonic Generations, and those only had Sonic playable. If Sega didn't want multiple playable characters, they would have turned the idea down, but clearly they know it sells since Mighty and Ray, two completely unknown Sonic characters, were the selling point of Mania Plus.

1 hour ago, Zaysho said:

What did Sonic Team do with Forces? A stripped down version of boost Sonic with a grappling hook and a Shadow reskin they didn't bother to finish animating?

Does it matter if they did it well? The argument isn't "other characters will play differently than Sonic", it's "other characters are likely to be playable."

1 hour ago, Zaysho said:

Even if Metal was going to be in Colors HD, he would've been a reskin, something they did way back in SADX, especially because there's not a whole lot else you can do in a game Sega and BSG were already butchering.

So? Metal Being playable still matters.

1 hour ago, Zaysho said:

This is just seeing a pattern and setting expectations accordingly until Sega actually says something. No one, even me in the post you quoted, said they can't or won't, just that they don't see it happening. The last time I raised my hopes for this kind of thing, I got a character creator and a worse Classic Sonic in a game that put Knuckles and Tails on the fucking box.

It's a pretty out of date pattern though. It hasn't really been valid since Sonic Lost World. Besides, it's totally possible to expect a solo Sonic adventure at the very least and at the same time believe that it's likely there will be more to the game.

Well that was fun, now I can take a break f- *sees several new replies*  Nevermind.

32 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

If people want to be so desperate to cling to any discernible "evidence" about having other playable characters despite them not being playable outside of multiplayer spin off titles (which NEED multiple characters :V) or titles that deliberately call back to the time when said characters were playable, be my guest. If you think having Shadow and an OC with Sonic's exact moveset are good substitutes for having full characters with their actual abilities, fine.

 

But please for the love of god stop acting like we're the crazy ones for not expecting much from Sonic Team; we've been doing this song and dance long before some of you have probably been able to even go on the Internet. At least respect the fact that we've been around long enough to see this shit. 

Damn, I didn't know my reasoning could be completely shut down by making it sound like a baseless conspiracy theory. You win.

Set your expectations wherever you want but the point is that Sega has been more and more open to using Sonic's friends, and now they have a movie coming out starring Tails and Knuckles that they will very likely want to promote their game alongside.

31 minutes ago, Jack-al said:

This. I feel like they might be confident again, they are aware people like the cast and want to see them used, but it also depends on the game, really. If it works, why not, if we believe this game has a budget, it's possible but I won't hold my breath for more characters, the premise does seem to be a solo Sonic adventure with a focus on something else. 

Forces just had weird decisions to try and fail to cash in on the whole fanbase, a dumb move. 

The one thing that makes me feel Tails and Knuckles have a chance here is they are the focus of movie 2 and there might be movie skins again. 

Yeah I feel like that's a reasonable stance to have. It's worth noting that the movie scripts probably weren't anywhere near complete when the Rangers demo was played in 2020, and Rangers was given an extra year of dev time due to covid delays (Which Iizuka said had no effect on the game's development). So they would probably be able to add Tails and Knuckles even if that wasn't originally intended.

30 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Because Sonic Frontiers is a new style of gameplay and none of the leaks have mentioned anything even remotely close to Sonic's friends being playable, it's safe to assume it's a Sonic only title. I don't see the problem with coming to this conclusion, and I'm not sure why the tone policing for people wary/disappointed in how this is looking is necessary.


Personally I think it might be for the best overall that it's Sonic only and if I were interested in defending the game I'd talk up the merits of going that route. There are plenty! It's a valid creative decision even if it's one I disagree with.

I wouldn't just pretend the last 10 years didn't happen, and I definitely wouldn't bother bringing up games that weren't developed by Sonic team or racing spinoffs that have to have other characters in them in order to function.

Or at least, they do for now. Maybe the wisps and the zeti will make up the roster for the next racer. Count Sonic Tails and Eggman and that's an even 20!

The leaks of the demo were made before film production began for Sonic Movie 2 Given how little of the game was complete at the time, I don't think it not having other characters means much since Sonic himself was still incomplete. I don't know if you were talking about me tone policing, but just because I try and argue against negativity when I think it's unwarranted doesn't mean I'm trying to silence others.

Personally, I think they have plenty of time to add in Knuckles and Tails. It's been over a year since the demo was played and we have around a year left until the game actually releases.

As for your third paragraph, I think you just missed my point the same way Zaysho did.

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Can't say I care much about alternative characters when they can't even get one game play style right like....I understand the frustration but I can't start caring as much as I want to until they finally build a damn foundation first before adding on top of it 

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17 hours ago, CertifiedNobody said:

but just because I try and argue against negativity when I think it's unwarranted doesn't mean I'm trying to silence others.

No, it's you and NoKaine talking to other people as if they are idiots that gives that impression.

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CertifiedNobody
14 minutes ago, Tornado said:

No, it's you and NoKaine talking to other people as if they are retards that gives that impression.

Don't know where you got that impression but ok. Is it because we explained the argument to Zayssho when he either didn't get it or didn't care?

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36 minutes ago, CertifiedNobody said:

It's already been explained to you that it isn't about Sonic characters appearing, it's about Sega supporting the idea of them being the game's main gimmick and focus of the marketing and animated shorts. That wouldn't have happened when Colors and Lost World released.

"I moved the goalposts because it makes you look stupid if I talk about something tangentially related that has nothing to do with the point you made."

And fun fact, multiple spin-offs and media flourished in this decade because the games didn't deliver. I'm more surprised you didn't throw Runners or some other nonsense that again wouldn't help your point the way you think it does. They use the characters in marketing and additional material? No shit?

36 minutes ago, CertifiedNobody said:

So was Sonic 4 and Sonic Generations, and those only had Sonic playable. If Sega didn't want multiple playable characters, they would have turned the idea down, but clearly they know it sells since Mighty and Ray, two completely unknown Sonic characters, were the selling point of Mania Plus

Sega's approval literally has nothing to do with anything I said.

36 minutes ago, CertifiedNobody said:

Does it matter if they did it well? The argument isn't "other characters will play differently than Sonic", it's "other characters are likely to be playable."

I didn't say anything about that. I pointed out what they were (a description that includes that they suck) because that's the baseline I have to set my expectations. This is such a basic point, but you're willfully ignoring it and then pointing at me and saying "lol you don't get it, you don't know what you're talking about" because you're so desperate to talk down anything that doesn't fit your toxic positivity view. This is the same shit people pulled with Forces four years ago.

I get Sonic fans settle for the bare minimum nowadays but I assumed that bar was a little higher than "they did it at all."

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CertifiedNobody
7 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

"I moved the goalposts because it makes you look stupid if I talk about something tangentially related that has nothing to do with the point you made."

And fun fact, multiple spin-offs and media flourished in this decade because the games didn't deliver. I'm more surprised you didn't throw Runners or some other nonsense that again wouldn't help your point the way you think it does.

Sega's approval literally has nothing to do with anything I said. They use them in marketing and additional material? No shit?

I didn't say anything about that. I pointed out what they were (a description that includes that they suck) because that's the baseline I have to set my expectations. This is such a basic point, but you're willfully ignoring it and then pointing at me and saying "lol you don't get it, you don't know what you're talking about" because you're so desperate to talk down anything that doesn't fit your toxic positivity view. This is the same shit people pulled with Forces four years ago.

I get Sonic fans settle for the bare minimum nowadays but I assumed that bar was a little higher than "they did it at all."

Ugh nevermind. There's no point in arguing this if you don't get what I'm arguing in the first place, or claim that I'm moving goalposts when I'm just restating my previous point. But I'm pretty sure TSR is more directly tied to Sega's plans for the series than Runners.

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15 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

"I moved the goalposts because it makes you look stupid if I talk about something tangentially related that has nothing to do with the point you made."

And fun fact, multiple spin-offs and media flourished in this decade because the games didn't deliver. I'm more surprised you didn't throw Runners or some other nonsense that again wouldn't help your point the way you think it does. They use the characters in marketing and additional material? No shit?

Sega's approval literally has nothing to do with anything I said.

I didn't say anything about that. I pointed out what they were (a description that includes that they suck) because that's the baseline I have to set my expectations. This is such a basic point, but you're willfully ignoring it and then pointing at me and saying "lol you don't get it, you don't know what you're talking about" because you're so desperate to talk down anything that doesn't fit your toxic positivity view. This is the same shit people pulled with Forces four years ago.

I get Sonic fans settle for the bare minimum nowadays but I assumed that bar was a little higher than "they did it at all."

...I'm just settling for something that is fun. 

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1 hour ago, CertifiedNobody said:

Well yeah. If Sega didn't want the focus to be on Sonic's friends... Then maybe they would've changed it, and maybe not allowed DLC adding more non-Sonic characters? Or greenlit animated shorts starring Sonic's friends? Sonic's friends are being pushed the hardest they've been in over a decade.

They don't need to have a personal vendetta against Sonic's friends to not want to make them playable in main series games. They're the extended cast, so of course, if they're going to make animated shorts, they're going to use them. They seem content to have them appear anywhere Sonic Team doesn't need to program them themselves (unless it'd take minimal effort, in Forces Shadow's case). It isn't impossible, but 

55 minutes ago, Jango said:

Sola Sonic still present in 2022 sucks giant ass, ngl

That's a term I haven't seen in a long time, and yet is still relevant.

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