Megathread Sonic Frontiers (2022) | MT | General Discussion (DO NOT discuss leaks here please)

[Iko]

16 hours ago, Jango said:

Lange actually made a tiny -more linear- stage that uses the Utopia momentum and flow gameplay.

Which is something Frontiers failed at, either by design or sheer incompetence. The cyberspace levels play completely different than the open zone, which by Sonic standards since 1991, basically tells me they were supposed to be Special/Bonus Stages. But yeah. 

It's still a personal opinion at the end of the day, but Utopia is just miles above Frontiers from a pure movement/fuckery around perspective. Not gonna enter the merit of comparing a test engine to a finished 60 dollars game, but for me, in a vacuum, Utopia is way more fun to move around and explore than Frontiers, any day of the week.

That's... a bit too much linear I think? Even by Cyberspace standards.

Can't we have a middle ground where you can explore freely but there are some obstacle courses to go across in order to reach places? Think of Bowser's Fury, but instead of the levels being in the middle of an empty lake, the levels are more organically mixed with the landscape.

All you need is to put some physical barriers in the open zone (mountains, water, lava rivers, etc), and let those "levels" help you go across those barriers in a safer way than by taking any other route. You don't have to literally "force" the player into them, it's enough to make it the easiest, most comfortable route, and most people will go through those "levels" even if it's not really required. There are places in Frontiers where they got it right already (especially in Ares Island), they just need to focus more on it IMO, and improve the level design in general (both in quality and variety).

Platformers are all about obstacle courses, if you want to make an open world action game but you remove the platforming, it becomes just a beat em up with puzzles. If you want to keep it a platformer, you need to create those obstacle courses and give the player a reason for going through them, even though the map is open and you can go anywhere.

There is plenty of open world games with vehichles. Take GTA, you are not forced to cross the map of the game by roads, but a lot of players will just get a car and ride it on a road... not all the times, but most of the times, because it's the best way to reach places in a short time. Roads are linear, but they are part of the open world, and the player is not limited to stay on them. Sonic (and Mario too IMO) need to do it with platforming courses instead of roads IMO.

[Jango]

47 minutes ago, Iko said:

Can't we have a middle ground where you can explore freely but there are some obstacle courses to go across in order to reach places? Think of Bowser's Fury, but instead of the levels being in the middle of an empty lake, the levels are more organically mixed with the landscape

Jak and Daxter then.

49 minutes ago, Iko said:

That's... a bit too much linear I think? Even by Cyberspace standards

It's just showing how you could also have the flow and feeling of Utopia's gameplay in a more traditional level, not just in an open world area.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

1 hour ago, Jango said:

It's just showing how you could also have the flow and feeling of Utopia's gameplay in a more traditional level, not just in an open world area.

See, Utopia isn't really the essential solution,  even in that regard. It's too lazer-focused on the aspect of 2D-esque gameplay, compared to actual fully fleshed out 3D games.

Not to say it doesn't have some good ideas, but many have already pointed out reasons that as it is, it isn't ideal.

[Shiny Gems]

You know, not to offend anyone here, or anyone who likes Sonic fan games, but there are people who like Sonic fan games over the main games done by Sonic Team for reasons, possibly primarily because those fan games appeal to their tastes; but still, Sonic Team trying to appeal to those people's tastes alone or primarily as well as doing things the way these fan games do it other than how they do it is not going to be the solution, as not everyone would be happy with the outcome. Sonic Frontiers is already enough of a success, and doing things like the fan games or appealing to mainly specific tastes can be a double edge sword, as it could ruin the success of Sonic games to some others, possibly many. Again, no offense here.

Also, I should note that fan games, while they may do some or many things right, are not necessarily the option because, well, those games are made by people who aren't working for professional companies. They do normally do a good job and have a lot of time to do them, but they do not have the resources and teams and all that of which the professional companies have. Plus, it takes a long time to make those fan games compared to those mainline games done by Sonic Team, and the team members normally have more experience in making games for that matter. Even if they don't make the best of Sonic games some of the time, I can imagine they can still do the main games better in plenty of ways than what fan game makers can do. Sure, the main game makers have deadlines to make, but they have the team members and more resources, as I said to compensate. The main game makers have also made more Sonic games than individual fan game makers, even if they are technically not good some of the time. If Sonic Team is incompetent, they are not that incompetent.

But anyway, while there may be some cues Sonic Team could take from fan games or the classics for that matter, fan games are still hardly the solution to anything. Not saying that fan games are inferior, but the way they are made compared to the main Sonic games are a different story. Also, these fan game makers do have different ideas from the main Sonic game makers that the main game makers may not want to use or may not find professional or for similar reasons.

[Jango]

3 hours ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

See, Utopia isn't really the essential solution,  even in that regard. It's too lazer-focused on the aspect of 2D-esque gameplay, compared to actual fully fleshed out 3D games.

Then I don't know where the fanbase's opinion is today, because for the past 5 years what I saw was Adventure 1's gameplay and philosophy being praised for being essentially 2D classic Sonic but in 3D

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

5 minutes ago, Jango said:

Then I don't know where the fanbase's opinion is today, because for the past 5 years what I saw was Adventure 1's gameplay and philosophy being praised for being essentially 2D classic Sonic but in 3D

There's a lot more nuance to it than just being the 2D gameplay brought to 3D.

Adventure went to further lengths to adjust matters for the 3D gameplay, including more abilities than what was present in the 2D games.

Utopia doesn't cover as much on hand as the Adventure formula did, given its limited vision.

[The Deleter]

Posting that video was probably the fastest way to turn a fangame-critical topic against the ideas Utopia would otherwise exemplify, because it's probably the most blatant case of

as an update for the project on its own

To people who see Utopia and say "non-linear doesn't work" due to how messy it is, you can show them the video and say it's actually all about momentum, sure, but the level design is even worse than the original demo there, all in an insignificant straight line. It sets a more ubiquitous idea of what "utopia" is, or even what Classic Sonic is, to fall under even worse "doesn't work" allegations, since the level design is so nothing. It's one of the worst follow-up videos to prove anyone that Utopia has more potential than it does, especially to the layman

Something like Sonic GT on the other hand can be shown off to people as an example of how much better the gameplay of the games could be using classic momentum or physics, but that's also combining modern Sonic gimmicks at the same time. So in turn all you're going to get stuck with are people saying that classic Sonic doesn't work in 3D, again, in spite of the fact that classic Sonic was always much more than what even Utopia's original demo managed to implement. It's all fighting an uphill battle.

This thread needs a pallet cleanse. Something that doesn't buckle at the "it's just a tech demo" or "flying over the level" reasoning...

 

[Shiny Gems]

 

I have to say, it is not a matter of a game like Sonic Frontiers having classic physics, or future games having them for that matter; it is about the game itself being good. Classic physics are just a way of making a game, and there are other ways to make a Sonic game as well. Sonic games have strayed from the classic games' physics for a while now, so it should not matter how much they resemble the classics, even if such physics made the classics great. Yes, Morio Kishimoto did say he wanted to go back to the Adventure formula, but even those games post Sonic Adventure 1 began to stray from the classics and their physics, and given the way modern games are now, including Sonic Frontiers, it may be more difficult to go back to a fully Sonic Adventure 1 type game or the classics and their physics. Sonic Frontiers is already successful enough, with or without such physics, so it is not like going back to the classic physics is necessary.

But Sonic Frontiers was still fun, so the classic physics are not exactly necessary. This is just a part of game evolution. Plus, I believe even if they went back to the classic physics in 3D, that has significant differences from the gameplay we have now, for even the slightest of physics changing will be likely to throw off other gamers aside from the classic fans. I mean, consistency between games, with some evolution here and there, and while not always present in Sonic games, is important. You can't just have one game like Frontiers with one style of gameplay and have a fully classic styled 3D game the next one without throwing people off, and some may even not like it. And as I said, these fan game still have their flaws, and may not match Sonic Team's current style, which is okay. Whatever the case, I still think the Sonic fan games are not ideal for mainline games.

But anyway, I do think it is a matter of a Sonic game just being good, regardless of its physics.

 

[SticksSuperFan14]

On 2/8/2023 at 8:33 AM, Iko said:

if you want to make an open world action game but you remove the platforming, it becomes just a beat em up with puzzles.

This is my main issue with Frontiers, it's fun but I think it emphasizes too much on the combat and not enough on the platforming (which feels dull and tacked on).

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Recent sales data has been unearthed, showing a good maintained rate of sales. 

 

[DaBigJ]

On 2/8/2023 at 3:45 PM, The Deleter said:

This thread needs a pallet cleanse. Something that doesn't buckle at the "it's just a tech demo" or "flying over the level" reasoning...

I mean no offense when I say this, but SRB2 is far from the best 'pallet cleanse' you could've used. You mentioned Sonic GT in the exact same post and could've used that as your cleanse.

Besides the fact that SRB2 isn't even that good, it's a completely different thing from Frontiers entirely, it's not even really an open world game since all the levels are generally straightforward....

[ZinogreVolt]

Bodes well for long-term legs, I think 6-7mil lifetime sales is feasible. 

[The Deleter]

1 hour ago, DaBigJ said:

I mean no offense when I say this, but SRB2 is far from the best 'pallet cleanse' you could've used. You mentioned Sonic GT in the exact same post and could've used that as your cleanse.

Besides the fact that SRB2 isn't even that good, it's a completely different thing from Frontiers entirely, it's not even really an open world game since all the levels are generally straightforward....

Sonic GT isn't predicated on classic Sonic in 3D though, and in my experience of discussing it, has less critical merit due to how often people get hung up on flying over the level as an inherent problem. The reason I threw SRB2 out as a proverbial pallet cleanse was because the conversation had already moved well beyond what me and Iko were discussing in terms of level design in an open world and what can work - instead the topic was starting to devolve into "Classic Sonic sensibilities don't work in 3D" that is repeated ad nausium whenever the name of Utopia is barely mentioned

If we're talking about open world game design, Frontiers, Utopia, and I suppose lesser known projects like Green Hill Paradise are all that exist currently, which are less well explored all things considered. If the topic wants to talk about cyberspace levels and what can be done to improve them, we already have examples in Generations, Unleashed, and the Adventure games to actually compare to instead. But if the topic wants to browbeat the ideas of classic sensibilities in 3D not being good enough because of a Utopia mention, that's where SRB2 ultimately comes into play as the obvious base case for arguments against it; improvements beyond that are a great topic to discuss considering it is still considered, on a variety of levels, to be good at the bare minimum.

Wrt to the cyberspace discussion earlier though, Classic physics don't have to be pointed at the cyberspace stages as the root of the problem. Not while fans of Generations, Unleashed, and the Adventure games already feel that the physics are terrible in comparison to those games.

We need an actual improvement to the physics and game feel all around before prioritizing much more theoretical ideas that the fandom largely dreams of still, because sloppily added rolling and dropdashes aren't going to save an entire playstyle from feeling worse than it felt in the most popular modern Sonic game from a decade ago, that people still buy and play to this very day. If the game feel can't satisfy the casual player coming off of Gens, then the series has a lot bigger problems then catering to classic fans again

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

1 hour ago, ZinogreVolt said:

Bodes well for long-term legs, I think 6-7mil lifetime sales is feasible. 

At the rate it's going? Yeah, it looks like it could reach those numbers. Potentially, there's a few things coming out for Sonic to keep the synergy going this year.

[The Deleter]

Let's hope the push for DLC by next holiday will be strong enough to have SEGA publish the individual numbers again. I'd imagine Generations has already achieved a million or so over it's initial sales due to how often it tops the collective series sales reports for their annual fiscal results, but without a solid number it's essentially reduced to a nebulous "doing well" instead.

If not though, what will be interesting is whether Frontiers will replace Generations as the top-preforming title, and for how long, considering how often the otherwise more recent modern Sonic games have fallen behind it. Will Generations retain it's appeal as the main springboard people choose when jumping into the series, or will Frontiers take it's place

[DaBigJ]

I have to wonder, with all this DLC, do you guys think a separate team is beginning concept phase for the next game? By that I mean things like concepting art and ideas on what to do

[Shiny Gems]

4 minutes ago, DaBigJ said:

I have to wonder, with all this DLC, do you guys think a separate team is beginning concept phase for the next game? By that I mean things like concepting art and ideas on what to do

I can actually imagine that being the case myself. They did say they were already working on the next game, did they not?

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

8 minutes ago, DaBigJ said:

I have to wonder, with all this DLC, do you guys think a separate team is beginning concept phase for the next game? By that I mean things like concepting art and ideas on what to do

With the hirings that have been going on, that's definitely within the realm of possibility.

[The Deleter]

Every other Sonic game has been described as having started development conceptually during the previous Sonic game during interviews, so it's likely the same for whatever's coming next. I'd imagine their development pipeline isn't that dissimilar to Nintendo (iirc) in pitching or even playing around with different concepts for games before they get the green light for full development, considering how back-to-back they are.

I do hope that doesn't effect Kishimoto's chances at developing the next title for the series, however. If it is an online, less-than-mainline kind of game, I guess it would be fine, but he deserves to have an immediate response to the feedback he received considering how much he wants to push the series higher than ever, rather than get interrupted

[ZinogreVolt]

2 hours ago, DaBigJ said:

I have to wonder, with all this DLC, do you guys think a separate team is beginning concept phase for the next game? By that I mean things like concepting art and ideas on what to do

That's usually how it goes. Unless the DLC is way bigger than people think, there's no reason to assume it's all hands on deck. In that sense, designers and artists have more than likely pooled their resources elsewhere. Though it is possible that they're working on something non-Sonic related too.

[Shiny Gems]

1 minute ago, ZinogreVolt said:

That's usually how it goes. Unless the DLC is way bigger than people think, there's no reason to assume it's all hands on deck. In that sense, designers and artists have more than likely pooled their resources elsewhere. Though it is possible that they're working on something non-Sonic related too.

You know, I thought something similar happened back then with Sonic Colors and Sonic Generations, where the latter came out after the former. Maybe those two games were made around the same time, though?

[Zaysho]

The "DLC" is a slate of free content updates, probably stuff that was already being worked on but not ready for implementation or because they really wanted to extend the game's life beyond its opening sales (probably the more likely answer). It's probably a core team finishing off Frontiers while the rest of Sonic Team is planning potential new projects.

[SolidSurgeTT]

Not to be harsh or negative (lest I be put on the bad list again) but anyone have an inkling that the third DLC wave won't be as cool as it sounds?

Like "YAY, EXTRA PLAYABLE CHARACTERS," but I have this shadow of doubt that it's going to play out as we want it to (new characters to explore the open world with using new movesets). I have this dread that they're going to be limited in how they can be used or their movesets aren't going to be satisfying.

Basically developed as an afterthought.

[DaBigJ]

3 minutes ago, SolidSurgeTT said:

Basically developed as an afterthought.

Heh

Just like the open world (/joke)

[Razule]

6 minutes ago, SolidSurgeTT said:

Not to be harsh or negative (lest I be put on the bad list again) but anyone have an inkling that the third DLC wave won't be as cool as it sounds?

Like "YAY, EXTRA PLAYABLE CHARACTERS," but I have this shadow of doubt that it's going to play out as we want it to (new characters to explore the open world with using new movesets). I have this dread that they're going to be limited in how they can be used or their movesets aren't going to be satisfying.

Basically developed as an afterthought.

I'm definitely thinking it'll be a few 2D Cyber-Space stages over, say, free-roaming as Tails and Knuckles and being able to fly over everything, or new combat moves just for them and Amy.