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Sonic Frontiers (2022) | MT | General Discussion (DO NOT discuss leaks here please)


Dreadknux

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No matter what reason people have for complaining about the quills ("he looks too classic", "reusing Forces assets", "I am an artist and have special eyes"), I do think this has been blown out of proportion. Not by them, but people complaining about the complaining. No one actually thinks the game will be ruined for that sole thing, I hope. It's just people stating their preference, and people thinking they're dumb for caring at all.

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7 minutes ago, Razule said:

No matter what reason people have for complaining about the quills ("he looks too classic", "reusing Forces assets", "I am an artist and have special eyes"), I do think this has been blown out of proportion. Not by them, but people complaining about the complaining. No one actually thinks the game will be ruined for that sole thing, I hope. It's just people stating their preference, and people thinking they're dumb for caring at all.

I don't like Sonic's sprite on Sonic 1 and Sonic CD, I prefer his sprite on Sonic 2 and Sonic 3&K. But I'm not going to say the games are bad because of these little details and start huge discussions about that. People are allowed to prefer what they prefer, but I have the right to think this whole drama is very unnecessary.

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42 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

People are acting like it's the end of the world. The game is going to be bad because Sonic has shorter quills, and a different shade of blue.

Seriously, how can the smallest of things that don't even matter or shouldn't matter get people to freak out? Some people just focus and think too much on things to the point that they effectively and easily freak out over nothing. Why should a model of Sonic's be something to get worked up about?

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I think the model is fine they do need new animations though. A misconception people have is that the forces model looks like classic but I think it's just the fur color and animations that inspire that idea.

1 hour ago, Razule said:

No matter what reason people have for complaining about the quills ("he looks too classic", "reusing Forces assets", "I am an artist and have special eyes"), I do think this has been blown out of proportion. Not by them, but people complaining about the complaining. No one actually thinks the game will be ruined for that sole thing, I hope. It's just people stating their preference, and people thinking they're dumb for caring at all.

There have been quite a few who have said that, but you have to read a lot of these comments and stuff but at this point I had thought this drama was over on both sides...

On 1/11/2022 at 8:33 AM, light-gaia said:

Old Sega IPs may be dead, but they have new ones,

I want dynamite headdy back

 

One thing I'll say is I do wish we had a model that reflected Sonic's spirit a bid more, I feel like Sonic rarely has his same cocky smile he has in a lot of his 2d art.

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6 minutes ago, Coz483 said:

There have been quite a few who have said that, but you have to read a lot of these comments and stuff but at this point I had thought this drama was over on both sides...

If I may add, about what Razule said about the people complaining about the complaining thing, may I say that the people complaining about the model is why other people are complaining about that in the first place. Not to mention, I do think this model thing has been blown out of proportion, as it is just a model, nothing game breaking. They just need new animations as you said. Besides, when were shorter quills or a model from a previous game being used again of all things something to complain about? It is hard to believe that people would get upset over something that is not that big of a deal as a model. It is not the end of the world, and yet there are people still complaining like it is. He is still Sonic, regardless of what model he has. What makes it so important to whine about, anyway? The ones complaining about the complaining mostly know that this whole model thing is silly, which is why they are trying to point it out to begin with.

I am not criticizing anything you said, by the way, just adding to what you said and just saying.

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1 hour ago, light-gaia said:

I don't like Sonic's sprite on Sonic 1 and Sonic CD, I prefer his sprite on Sonic 2 and Sonic 3&K. But I'm not going to say the games are bad because of these little details and start huge discussions about that. People are allowed to prefer what they prefer, but I have the right to think this whole drama is very unnecessary.

The reasons this has blown up aren't comparable to 30 year old games. If anyone's saying the model reflects poorly on the rest of the game, it's because of the association with Forces and reusing assets from it. This is what people are talking about now because the alternative is nothing. 

I can't say I care too much about the model, but I like understanding why people do what they do. Whether it's necessary or not, it's a thing.

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8 minutes ago, CrystalMaelStorm said:

Besides, when were shorter quills or a model from a previous game being used again of all things something to complain about?

Ironic thing is Sa1 models are praised while dx models are hated and dx has Sonic with longer quills.

8 minutes ago, Razule said:

The reasons this has blown up aren't comparable to 30 year old games. If anyone's saying the model reflects poorly on the rest of the game, it's because of the association with Forces and reusing assets from it. This is what people are talking about now because the alternative is nothing. 

I understand both sides more than I did when this drama started again a few days ago and I just think Sonic needs good lighting and good animations.

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33 minutes ago, Razule said:

The reasons this has blown up aren't comparable to 30 year old games. If anyone's saying the model reflects poorly on the rest of the game, it's because of the association with Forces and reusing assets from it. This is what people are talking about now because the alternative is nothing. 

I can't say I care too much about the model, but I like understanding why people do what they do. Whether it's necessary or not, it's a thing.

It's still an unnecessary over reaction. Reusing assets is very common in game development, specially if the asset is fine. Sonic Forces' model has a high polygon count. Higher than any other Sonic game. Why would they  make another model if they aren't even changing the Sonic's character design, and the new model would still look almost the same as Forces' ?

I think people got traumatized by Sonic Forces and need to search for help (I am being serious).

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22 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

It's still an unnecessary over reaction. Reusing assets is very common in game development, specially if the asset is fine. Sonic Forces' model has a high polygon count. Higher than any other Sonic game. Why would they  make another model if they aren't even changing the Sonic's character design, and the new model would still look almost the same as Forces' ?

I think people got traumatized by Sonic Forces and need to search for help (I am being serious).

In regards to games reusing assets from previous games, that is very true. I am sure Sonic Forces reused some things from Sonic Lost World; like the getting to top speed being based on, but not completely like how Sonic would get to top speed in Lost World, if I recall correctly. I am sure a lot of other things have been reused for Sonic games. Even if it is a different kind of game, Team Sonic Racing reused levels from the Sega All-Stars Racing games, did they not? Still, it is not a crime to reuse things like a previous model.

51 minutes ago, Coz483 said:

Ironic thing is Sa1 models are praised while dx models are hated and dx has Sonic with longer quills.

Yeah, there is much irony in that. Still, if Sonic had longer quills in, say, the daytime levels of Sonic Unleashed, Colors and Generations and shorter quills in Sonic Forces, all after the Sonic Adventure 1 Dreamcast and Gamecube DX models as you said, then I don't think that is going to have an impact on the game's quality. Having shorter quills in Sonic Forces or whatever certainly did not save Sonic Forces from being average, did it not?

EDIT: Someone brought up two animators on the last page saying the model looks bad, or the quills. Let me point out that even if they are skilled animators, they are not skilled video game makers. As light-gaia said, video games tend to reuse assets, and it is different from just animating. I doubt that those two animators know that much about video games rather than just animation alone.

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2 hours ago, light-gaia said:

Why would they  make another model if they aren't even changing the Sonic's character design, and the new model would still look almost the same as Forces' ?

Making it look closer to the CGI model would be something. 

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18 minutes ago, Razule said:

Making it look closer to the CGI model would be something. 

So just use the Unleashed model? Because they're basically the same except the cgi one is slightly higher poly.

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28 minutes ago, Razule said:

Making it look closer to the CGI model would be something. 

They still have time to change the model, if they want. Sonic Unleashed's model was changed pretty late in the development of the game. If you search for old Sonic Unleashed screenshots, you'll see the model was different. It's pretty easy to change a model, so it's not a priority when a game is being developed.


1298760029_sonicunleashedmodel.thumb.jpg.09e7efb8c1fd2182232c1775095ac9b2.jpg

(This is screenshot is from March 2008, the same year the game was release)
 

Now let's compare with the final model:

647196995_sonicunleashedfinalmodel.thumb.jpg.2d4f7bcc6901ea09b62f49adf1d8d83d.jpg

 

It has a higher polygon count, and it's much more detailed.


Furthermore, the game is going to be available for Nintendo Switch and old gen consoles (PS4, XONE, etc), if they put a CGI-Pixar-quality model, the game wouldn't be able to run on weaker hardware. Specially considering the open world aspect.

In my opinion, they are probably going to update the Forces' model. It's not like they are going to use exactly the same model. Like the Sonic Lost World's model is slightly different from the one from Sonic Generations, but it's almost the same. And, it's very likely they are using it as a placeholder.

The same people who are complaining and freaking out about a placeholder model are the ones who praise Sonic Unleashed as a masterpiece of a game, and I highly doubt they remember that Unleashed's model was changed in the same year the game was release. The truth is: people don't know anything about game development and are freaking out about things that are 100% expected.

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7 minutes ago, Coz483 said:

The OG unleashed model is actually pretty cute

I agree, however, at that time they didn't have an HD Sonic model with that design they could use as a placeholder. The last HD Sonic game was 2006, with very different proportions. Nowadays, they have plenty of Sonic models already ready to use: Unleashed's, Generations', Sonic Lost World's, Forces', etc. And Sonic hasn't had any character design overhaul since 2006. They don't have any reason to make a placeholder model from scratch now, only because a vocal minority can't stand seeing the Forces' model in 2 seconds of gameplay footage.

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3 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

I agree, however, at that time they didn't have an HD Sonic model with that design they could use as a placeholder. The last HD Sonic game was 2006, with very different proportions. Nowadays, they have plenty of Sonic models already ready to use: Unleashed's, Generations', Sonic Lost World's, Forces', etc. And Sonic hasn't had any character design overhaul since 2006. They don't have any reason to make a placeholder model from scratch now, only because a vocal minority can't stand seeing the Forces' model in 2 seconds of gameplay footage.

I see what you mean. Should have seen it before. Well, I kinda saw it before, but the models after Sonic 06 more consistently look the same, and by "more consistently", I mean they are not all the same in some ways, but very close otherwise.

Speaking of consistency, people say the Sonic series lacks consistency. Any other possible reason aside, with how similar the models from Unleashed to Frontiers (so far) look, even if the Forces model used in Frontiers is not like Sonic Unleashed's, they do look very, very similar. With that, don't you find it odd that fans are complaining about consistency about those models that look much alike between those games, even though they keep saying the Sonic series is lacking consistency? It's not like the Sonic model in Frontiers is that inconsistent with the previous ones, right?

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People reaching new levels to find stuff to complain about isn’t exactly new these days.

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Just now, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

People reaching new levels to find stuff to complain about isn’t exactly new these days.

Well, that could be considered human nature in an accurate way. However, for some time, I honestly thought this was human nature overblown. I guess there is no limits in how far human nature can go to find things to do.

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1 hour ago, CrystalMaelStorm said:

Speaking of consistency, people say the Sonic series lacks consistency. Any other possible reason aside, with how similar the models from Unleashed to Frontiers (so far) look, even if the Forces model used in Frontiers is not like Sonic Unleashed's, they do look very, very similar. With that, don't you find it odd that fans are complaining about consistency about those models that look much alike between those games, even though they keep saying the Sonic series is lacking consistency? It's not like the Sonic model in Frontiers is that inconsistent with the previous ones, right?

Unleashed to Generations models have long quills in common, and Lost World to Forces have short quills. I don't think the consistency complaint applies to changing something back to how it was a short time ago. If anything, slightly changing Sonic's model each game would be more consistent.

Things get.. confusing when you take different criticisms from different times and put them together. In '98, green eyes were bad, in '17, any hint of Classic Sonic in Modern's design gives people hernias. When Boom was revealed, blue arms were bad, when Hesse's Movie Sonic was revealed, anything was better than the abomination that preceded it. In Generations, people were thrilled to see Classic Sonic, in Forces, he outwore his welcome. In 06, his quills were too long, now they're too short.

Different generations, different people, different contexts, maybe a little nuance.

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20 minutes ago, Razule said:

Unleashed to Generations models have long quills in common, and Lost World to Forces have short quills. I don't think the consistency complaint applies to changing something back to how it was a short time ago. If anything, slightly changing Sonic's model each game would be more consistent.

Things get.. confusing when you take different criticisms from different times and put them together. In '98, green eyes were bad, in '17, any hint of Classic Sonic in Modern's design gives people hernias. When Boom was revealed, blue arms were bad, when Hesse's Movie Sonic was revealed, anything was better than the abomination that preceded it. In 06, his quills were too long, now they're too short.

Different generations, different people, different contexts, maybe a little nuance.

Eh,. for the first part, I think I did not say anything about changing things to how they were a short time ago. Still, what I meant by what I said about the model that people are still complaining about the smallest thing, like the model being from Forces and the quill length. As for different times and people, and so on, @Coz483 pointed out that people liked the SA1 Dreamcast model but hated the DX one, which had longer quills. People complained about things back then like they did with now. Since it is human nature, no offense, but I do not think times, people and contexts and such were that different; in the sense that people complained over the little things, and that people always complain about little things, no matter how small they are.

Also, some of those things you said about Boom, Movie Sonic, modern Sonic's design and such had only small details that people complained about, except the abomination that was the initial design for movie Sonic, of course. It was still ridiculous, especially the blue arms and the green eyes, among other things. While no one can necessarily control any of that, it is still ridiculous to complain about little things, and; no offense, but I think defending them or saying it is no big deal is not good, either (assuming that is what you are doing, in which even I can be wrong on that). I personally thinking like that over the smallest things can be even mentally unhealthy. There is a reason people would point out that complaining about the little things is or can be dumb: it is just silly. Plus, we are talking game modern Sonic, not Boom or classic or movie Sonic.

Also, as you said, Sonic's models do have differences from one another. As you said, changing models could be more consistent, but so is models looking mostly consistent even if they are not wholly consistent. They still look mostly alike, which to me, is consistent to a good level. However, people still complain about the things that are not consistent, no matter how small. While that may add to Sonic not being consistent in the past, the models are closely like one another, and the fact that people still complain about the smallest things about them is what I am talking about. They had a lot of consistency in the models, but still, Sega can't win.

I hope this was not mean and aggressive to you in any way. I am just stating my point of view. That is all.

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7 hours ago, Razule said:

No matter what reason people have for complaining about the quills ("he looks too classic", "reusing Forces assets", "I am an artist and have special eyes"), I do think this has been blown out of proportion. Not by them, but people complaining about the complaining. No one actually thinks the game will be ruined for that sole thing, I hope. It's just people stating their preference, and people thinking they're dumb for caring at all.

Honestly, I didn't see the people who were complaining about the model straight up say that they weren't going to buy Sonic Frontiers because of it.  I bet you when Sonic Frontiers comes out and becomes a big hit, all of this will be forgotten about.  But anyway, how do I feel about this whole situation?  Well for me personally, I don't really care what Sonic looks like.  All I care about is how good the gameplay is.  I honestly think that the gameplay is way more important than how Sonic looks because I can always overlook how a character looks if I have a lot of fun with the gameplay.  However, and maybe I'm contrasting what I just said before here, but if Sonic looks too ugly or he doesn't look like Sonic at all, then I would have been more concerned.  However, from where I'm standing, he still looks like Sonic to me, with or without the short or long quills.

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6 minutes ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

Honestly, I didn't see the people who were complaining about the model straight up say that they weren't going to buy Sonic Frontiers because of it.  I bet you when Sonic Frontiers comes out and becomes a big hit, all of this will be forgotten about.  But anyway, how do I feel about this whole situation?  Well for me personally, I don't really care what Sonic looks like.  All I care about is how good the gameplay is.  I honestly think that the gameplay is way more important than how Sonic looks because I can always overlook how a character looks if I have a lot of fun with the gameplay.  Now, I can understand if Sonic looks too ugly or he doesn't look like Sonic at all, then I would have been more concerned.  However, from where I'm standing, he still looks like Sonic to me, with or without the short or long quills.

You said it! Plus, Sonic, outside being a character, is known gameplay wise as being fast. Sonic's model does not tell how good the gameplay will be, and as long as Sonic is Sonic in character; including looks such as his model, and gameplay, and on top of that, if his gameplay is good and fun, then that is all that should matter, right?

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2 hours ago, Razule said:

Unleashed to Generations models have long quills in common, and Lost World to Forces have short quills. I don't think the consistency complaint applies to changing something back to how it was a short time ago. If anything, slightly changing Sonic's model each game would be more consistent.

Things get.. confusing when you take different criticisms from different times and put them together. In '98, green eyes were bad, in '17, any hint of Classic Sonic in Modern's design gives people hernias. When Boom was revealed, blue arms were bad, when Hesse's Movie Sonic was revealed, anything was better than the abomination that preceded it. In Generations, people were thrilled to see Classic Sonic, in Forces, he outwore his welcome. In 06, his quills were too long, now they're too short.

Different generations, different people, different contexts, maybe a little nuance.

In my opinion, both situations have very similar contexts: Sonic fans get old, and then they become unhappy and start complaining about the new games using nostalgia glasses. The green eyes complain wasn't a 98 thing, I had seen people complaining about the green eyes during the whole 2000s.  Usually people who have played the original trilogy when they were kids.

Now, we have people who grew up playing games like Unleashed complaining about the new stuff in the same way.

Both cases are very similar and comparable, to me, and both are silly.
 

2 hours ago, CrystalMaelStorm said:

Eh,. for the first part, I think I did not say anything about changing things to how they were a short time ago. Still, what I meant by what I said about the model that people are still complaining about the smallest thing, like the model being from Forces and the quill length. As for different times and people, and so on, @Coz483 pointed out that people liked the SA1 Dreamcast model but hated the DX one, which had longer quills. People complained about things back then like they did with now. Since it is human nature, no offense, but I do not think times, people and contexts and such were that different; in the sense that people complained over the little things, and that people always complain about little things, no matter how small they are.

Also, some of those things you said about Boom, Movie Sonic, modern Sonic's design and such had only small details that people complained about, except the abomination that was the initial design for movie Sonic, of course. It was still ridiculous, especially the blue arms and the green eyes, among other things. While no one can necessarily control any of that, it is still ridiculous to complain about little things, and; no offense, but I think defending them or saying it is no big deal is not good, either (assuming that is what you are doing, in which even I can be wrong on that). I personally thinking like that over the smallest things can be even mentally unhealthy. There is a reason people would point out that complaining about the little things is or can be dumb: it is just silly. Plus, we are talking game modern Sonic, not Boom or classic or movie Sonic.

Also, as you said, Sonic's models do have differences from one another. As you said, changing models could be more consistent, but so is models looking mostly consistent even if they are not wholly consistent. They still look mostly alike, which to me, is consistent to a good level. However, people still complain about the things that are not consistent, no matter how small. While that may add to Sonic not being consistent in the past, the models are closely like one another, and the fact that people still complain about the smallest things about them is what I am talking about. They had a lot of consistency in the models, but still, Sega can't win.

I hope this was not mean and aggressive to you in any way. I am just stating my point of view. That is all.

In my opinion, Sonic is very consistent when it comes to character design. If we compare to other famous franchises, we will see that the characters often have little adjustments in their characters designs from time to time. Just look how Pikachu used to look like, and how it does now. Another example is Kirby.

If we exclude Sonic 2006, in most games released by Sonic Team since at least Secret Rings, Sonic has a very similar design and proportions.

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Talks of games before they've come out or sometimes with only a few trailers to go by are increasingly hard to be a part of nowadays. Screenshots and trailers have increasingly become things that are hard to trust as time has gone on. All the shit-stirring about how TSR was going to look and how that ended up being fine coupled with the heavier example of Colors Ultimate's trailers and screenshots just outright showing us an image of the game that was factually inaccurate make it hard to feel confident about anything I have to say about what we think we know now.

That's why I've largely abstained from discussion on anything here past what I've seen in what they've shown us and even that I'm taking with a grain of salt.

I'm sure there are reasons for why Colors Ultimate did what it did with that trailer. Mostly stuff pertaining to the pandemic that future Sonic games (hopefully) won't have to deal with but considering how this has been a thing since long before there was even a pandemic I've taken a stance to just be mostly collected on my thoughts until I'm literally playing this thing.

That isn't to say I won't be animated in my responses towards something I hear that sounds like it'll suck or be awesome. I'm just making sure to temper whatever expectations I have with a lot of "I think" and "Hopefully" and "Maybe". 

I may forget to do so every once in a while. This series does a good job of making people passionate, that's for sure. 

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10 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

In my opinion, both situations have very similar contexts: Sonic fans get old, and then they become unhappy and start complaining about the new games using nostalgia glasses. The green eyes complain wasn't a 98 thing, I had seen people complaining about the green eyes during the whole 2000s.  Usually people who have played the original trilogy when they were kids.

Now, we have people who grew up playing games like Unleashed complaining about the new stuff in the same way.

Both cases are very similar and comparable, to me, and both are silly.
 

In my opinion, Sonic is very consistent when it comes to character design. If we compare to other famous franchises, we will see that the characters often have little adjustments in their characters designs from time to time. Just look how Pikachu used to look like, and how it does now. Another example is Kirby.

If we exclude Sonic 2006, in most games released by Sonic Team since at least Secret Rings, Sonic has a very similar design and proportions.

On especially the last line of your post, the words "similar design and proportions" is what I meant when I said they are mostly alike, so I never doubted Sonic being consistent in terms of character design, to be clear. In fact, the only thing I think is inconsistent would be the quills, which I thought are still a silly thing to complain about, as they still look pretty much the same, despite what their length may be.

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3 hours ago, Razule said:

Unleashed to Generations models have long quills in common, and Lost World to Forces have short quills. I don't think the consistency complaint applies to changing something back to how it was a short time ago. If anything, slightly changing Sonic's model each game would be more consistent.

Things get.. confusing when you take different criticisms from different times and put them together. In '98, green eyes were bad, in '17, any hint of Classic Sonic in Modern's design gives people hernias. When Boom was revealed, blue arms were bad, when Hesse's Movie Sonic was revealed, anything was better than the abomination that preceded it. In Generations, people were thrilled to see Classic Sonic, in Forces, he outwore his welcome. In 06, his quills were too long, now they're too short.

Different generations, different people, different contexts, maybe a little nuance.

When it comes to Sonic Boom. In my opinion, Sonic Boom is a totally different situation. Boom's character design is inferior at a technical level. Both classic and modern Sonic designs have very recognizable silhouettes, for example. Boom's design, on the other hand, have a bunch of unnecessary accessories that make Sonic's silhouette more complex and not so easy to recognize.

About his accessories again, they don't communicate very well Sonic's personality. Why does Sonic have a bunch of tapes around his gloves and shoes? At that time, I didn't even know about sports tapes, and I'm sure most of the audience didn't either. In my opinion, the Boom series removed a lot of iconic aspects of the franchise in both the character designs, and the art direction. That explains why Boom is the biggest Sonic flop of all time.

We can see how Sonic's Boom design isn't iconic at all because people don't talk about it nowadays. I'm sure 10, 20, or even more years in the future, Sonic's classic and modern designs are still going to be remembered in some way. Like people remember different Mickey Mouse designs. Sonic Boom's design is going to be forgotten.

The only thing I think Boom did well was the expressions, but Sonic Team could make Sonic more expressive using the modern design, it's more a matter of animation than character design.

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