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I don't think they'll ever make a Mania 2 :(


J.R.
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considering what we’ve seen from ST themselves and their own attempts at “recreating” classic Sonic gameplay they probably realize don’t have the skill to make a mania follow up on their own, and don’t seem pressed to improve in that regard. So unless they get whitehead and his team back, something, as I said earlier I find unlikely, they aren’t gonna do it. Whitehead wants to do his own stuff, and Sega doesn’t seem that interested in continuing with the relationship from what we’ve heard. I’m sure if Sega was smart they’d have done everything they could to have gotten Christian to stay on board for at least one more Mania game, and hey, if it ends up that’s the case, I’ll gladly eat my words, but as it stands, given everything we’ve been told, it doesn’t seem like they care much currently 

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I would say Sonic Team should just move forward with their own Modern 2D series and distance themselves from Mania. They know they can't beat it, so may as well not even try.

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CertifiedNobody

Sonic Team absolutely could make a 2D classic Sonic game that's better than Mania, but we've never seen them try. Most were made by Dimps and Gens & Forces weren't trying to be accurate to the classic games, just similar. 

I don't think they should though. Mania was fantastic but I don't want it to be the next New Super Mario Bros, and I'd rather have them focus on making great 3D game.

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1 hour ago, CertifiedNobody said:

Sonic Team absolutely could make a 2D classic Sonic game that's better than Mania

lmao

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To be fair, they probably could if they really wanted to....but they don't really want because they care more about doing their own thing. 

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they can't

there's one sonic game that's as good as sonic mania out of like 90. that's 90 chances for anyone to do this shit and they couldn't.

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Because they don't want to...Iizuka has been pretty upfront with the fact that they have no interest in following up on their old games and just want to experiment with their own creative ideas. 

The closest approximation of Classic Sonic done by them specifically was Sonic Generations' rendition, which was generally considered "good enough" and overall that game is considered one of the better games in the series. 

 

So they absolutely COULD make a good enough follow up, but the bottom line is, they don't want to and probably never did despite the fandom's insistence on it. 

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Sonic Team's idea of making a Genesis style Sonic game in the modern age is adding checkerboards to everything and upscaling Casino Night graphics. I really don't think they have it in them.

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Generations take on classic gameplay was actually good and different ,they experimented with it in 3D space in some creative ways, like how interconnected Sky Sanctuary stage was , in ways you can see it, you see some whole layers in the background that you can play in if you chose different paths, the sequence at the end of the stage is simple and brilliant , and in general you see how levels in 3D space have actual depth and feel more like real places

 

So when Forces 2D stages were just actually...2D,flat, with no depth, it fared way worse, especially when Mania do the same thing but better

 

So i would say a full 2D game in 3D space from Sonic Team in the same style of Generations but fleshed out and more experimental can actually be something truly special, they could make it.

 

But instead they prefer to develop 3D games which is understandable as well 

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I think its pretty telling that whenever they had to get a 2D game created...they just commissioned someone else to do it. That just tells you their priorities right there. 

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They could totally do it. Just ignore the fact that they came up short in every example that we have and imagine if they didn't!
 

They just don't want to because they're beyond 2D games, despite the fact that every new game they make is bursting at the seams with 2D sections.

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Every one of their "Failed" attempts were Dimps tho....

 

Look, I'm the first to talk shit about Sonic and the poor management that goes under this series, but that doesn't mean we have to get our facts wrong.

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They may not be making wholly 2D games themselves but there's been no shortage of 2D gameplay from them.

And it's always been kinda ass, especially when they've tried to make it "classic" Sonic.

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this fandom is a roller coaster sometimes I swear. We’re now really suggesting ST just simply never needed or had the interest in replicating classic gameplay, and actually has had the competency to replicate it the whole time, instead of the simple likely case that they just can’t do it? If they could’ve done it no problem already, Sonic 4 would not be a thing, dimps wouldn’t have been hired for it, Gens would have had basic understanding of classic gameplay elements at the very least, and Mania would not be the result of Whitehead. Why actively shoot yourself in the foot, and not do it ever accurately whenever you get the chance? Metroid, Mario, Megaman and Zelda are all able to retain classic elements when they release new entries, and feel like natural progressions of the same formula. What would have been lost with Sonic not following suit?
 

How many excuses are we gonna give Sonic team  and Sega here whenever they try and fail to sell retro gameplay to people? Classic was literally unnecessary in forces and only existed to try and bridge the gap from classic fans to modern ones (as was the case with generations, especially off of the heals of Sonic 4). He’s literally the classic Sonic from mania, the game marketed to and made for fans of the old gameplay. Mania itself ties itself to Forces to suggest “if you liked this, you’ll like him in forces!” If you’re gonna market classic elements in hopes it appeals to classic fans, you may as well go the full way in doing those things said fans have been asking for if you apparently have the skill to do it already 

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Note, I am not making excuses for them if that's the impression you're getting. I'm only going by literally their own words and admissions.

But if you looked at their creative output for....years now, they have never expressed any desire at replicating or building on existing mechanics in the series. Like we have shit like Sonic Heroes that throws out everything from the Adventure games, and then Lost World which threw out everything from Generations.

Literally one of the biggest complaints about this series is how it never sticks to anything and is constantly reinventing itself into something else. Even in their GOOD games, they do shit like add fishing for the sole purpose of flexing the Dreamcast's capabilities.

Sonic Team have always felt like they would much rather be doing anything else but making Sonic games, and that Sonic is more or less their only creative outlet. This is in addition to the fact that the staff is always changing as people come and go.

Sonic is their marketing tool above anything else, the series they use for either newcomers or for some of the old guard left to flex their creative muscles on some gimmick or experimentation.

I'm not cutting them any slack whatsoever, I'm more saying the track record for the series is as much poor management as it is the staff not really giving a damn and wanting to do anything but make Sonic games.

I'm sure Evening Star would love to make a Mania 2, but they've also expressed interest in wanting to create their own games too. Its the same song and dance with Sonic games; the staff do what they were hired to do and move on to bigger and better things. Yuji fucking Naka wanted to move on after Sonic 3 and Sega more or less held him hostage until 2006.

Call it what you want, but it feels like creators just don't want to work on Sonic in the long-term for whatever reason as people who do, just do not stay in the company.

 

 

I said this in a Status a few days ago and I'll say it again here; Sonic Team/Sega only work on an idea just long enough before they get bored and move on to something else entirely. 

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Why do people still blame Dimps for Sega's inability to make good Sonic games...

What are Dimps' failures anyway, Sonic 4 and Lost World 3DS?

All the other games they did were good enough and enjoyable, the Advance and Rush titles, even if they have some level design issues, are still beloved by a lot of people, and Colors DS, despite being very forgettable, was still a good game.

Then there's Generations 3DS, which is a very low effort title, with bad level design here and there (much worse than previous games), but they got Classic Sonic's physics way more accurate than even the HD version of the game (even though it was still not like in the original classics).

All the hold right/boost to win, automation/dashpads and death pits issues people blame Dimps for, Sonic Team did them before even the Advance games existed, and continue to do it to this day even if Dimps does not work on Sonic anymore... the only thing that changed are the red death signs.

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1 hour ago, KHCast said:

this fandom is a roller coaster sometimes I swear. We’re now really suggesting ST just simply never needed or had the interest in replicating classic gameplay, and actually has had the competency to replicate it the whole time, instead of the simple likely case that they just can’t do it? If they could’ve done it no problem already, Sonic 4 would not be a thing, dimps wouldn’t have been hired for it, Gens would have had basic understanding of classic gameplay elements at the very least, and Mania would not be the result of Whitehead. Why actively shoot yourself in the foot, and not do it ever accurately whenever you get the chance? Metroid, Mario, Megaman and Zelda are all able to retain classic elements when they release new entries, and feel like natural progressions of the same formula. What would have been lost with Sonic not following suit?

Classic Sonic in generations didn't even attempt to actually replicate classic sonic gameplay yes, but rather trying a new spin on it, a "modern" spin if you will, and for all intents and purposes, it succeeded , cause what it did was unique, not only for sonic, but for any 2D platform game that i can recall, just cause the physics aren't 1:1 with classic games doesn't mean it's bad, levels were designed differently to accommodate for it's physics and direction.

 

and No, those series you listed didn't retain classic gameplay elements the way you say it, Mario change its style all the damn time, and even when they did New Super Mario Bros, it wasn't actually by main development team -just like Sonic Team, but you don't see anyone complaining there, they know that it's natural that the main developers are interested in pushing the main series in 3D and that it's perfectly fine-

Zelda just threw the old elements altogether in it's newest game and tried something different, in fact even games before it just change a lot between releases, the last classic classic Zelda was a 3DS game

Metroid...they actually hired an outsider studio to make a classic Metroid game, guess Nintendo themselves can't make a metroid with classic elements huh, and again no one actually complains there, they just acknowledge Dread as a good game .. just like we acknowledged Mania as such, you don't see silly claims like "Nintendo are unable to make competent metroid games themselves"

Mega Man...actually the only one that really retained classic elements from main capcom developers, but that's cause the main series is so formulaic and safe and consistent and don't actually try to do something different of goes 3D etc, while they actually experiment with numerous spin offs that spawn whole sequels to themselves, and go ham there

 

So....yeah Sonic Team didn't actually have interest in doing classic sonic games themselves, cause they always push the series forward and trying new things, for better, and usually for worse, but it's always something different, it's not like Sonic Team thinks "oh we can't actually do 2D games, welp we gotta try 3D and something different i guess "

Gen showed the promise of them actually having the ability to make fun 2D game, so yes, theoretically they could make a good whole  2D game if they chose to, it's not an impossibility, 

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3 hours ago, MH MD said:

Classic Sonic in generations didn't even attempt to actually replicate classic sonic gameplay yes, but rather trying a new spin on it, a "modern" spin if you will, and for all intents and purposes, it succeeded , cause what it did was unique, not only for sonic, but for any 2D platform game that i can recall

How

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4 hours ago, MH MD said:

Classic Sonic in generations didn't even attempt to actually replicate classic sonic gameplay yes, but rather trying a new spin on it,

So why is it classic Sonic then if this was allegedly not supposed to capture the classic feeling to appeal to classic fans in anniversary game literally about celebrating the generations of Sonic? If you’re goal isn’t to satisfy the classic market with your character dedicated to that branch of the franchise, you’re doing a pretty ass job at marketing your actual intentions 

Quote

Gen showed the promise of them actually having the ability to make fun 2D game, so yes, theoretically they could make a good whole  2D game if they chose to, it's not an impossibility, 

Your initial claim was that they could make a 2D game better than mania if they wanted but simply choose not to for reasons. If that’s your stance on this, all I’m gonna say is keep telling yourself that buddy

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If we're talking about them specifically making a better game than Mania? 

Haha, naw fuck that lol. I'll eat shit when that happens.

 

I just said they can do something good enough, not that they can surpass Mania. 

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CrownSlayer’s Shadow

Mania is barely even better than S3&K (I didn’t stutter, fucking fight me!), so you’d be doing a bigger favor surpassing it.

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12 hours ago, Wraith said:

How

I can't recall myself a 2D platformer that played with the 3D space like that,consistently shifting camera positions, interconnected level designs with visible playable background, things like that, i am likely be wrong but i honest can't recall something like Sky sanctuary stage, DKCR aren't like that for example -while they are very good-, i guess Klonoa counts? If there are things i am missing i would like to know them.

 

11 hours ago, KHCast said:

So why is it classic Sonic then if this was allegedly not supposed to capture the classic feeling to appeal to classic fans in anniversary game literally about celebrating the generations of Sonic? If you’re goal isn’t to satisfy the classic market with your character dedicated to that branch of the franchise, you’re doing a pretty ass job at marketing your actual intentions 

Cause classic sonic is there to celebrate the anniversary of the series as a whole? cause the whole game is celebration of the series as a whole? that's like asking why Adventure stages are there if they play nothing like Adventure game and that somehow it's false marketing, it's not.

Boost style was chosen for Modern Sonic even though it's not representative for majority of his history at the time, and it was fine, with classic, they made 2D stages for him in obvious different direction than old classic games while paying homage to them in general, and it was also fine, cause they were new and fun.

11 hours ago, KHCast said:

Your initial claim was that they could make a 2D game better than mania if they wanted but simply choose not to for reasons. If that’s your stance on this, all I’m gonna say is keep telling yourself that buddy

Tell me exactly where i even mentioned Mania.

My claim is that they can make something truly special if they made fully 2D game with the style of generations, didn't say anything about it being better or worse than Mania, here are my words:

Quote

So i would say a full 2D game in 3D space from Sonic Team in the same style of Generations but fleshed out and more experimental can actually be something truly special, they could make it.

 

Don't put words in my mouth please.

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16 minutes ago, MH MD said:

that's like asking why Adventure stages are there if they play nothing like Adventure game and that somehow it's false marketing, it's not.

This is such a disingenuous false equivalence. Using stages, is not the same thing as using entire gameplay mechanics clearly made to appeal to a market that has been demanding that style of gameplay for years, and advertising it to said market as “that old Sonic you remember”. 

 

16 minutes ago, MH MD said:

Boost style was chosen for Modern Sonic even though it's not representative for majority of his history

It was chosen because it was positively received twice already, and the most recent style of Sonic gameplay, hence the name “modern” Sonic. 

 

16 minutes ago, MH MD said:

with classic, they made 2D stages for him in obvious different direction than old classic games while paying homage to them in general, and it was also fine, cause they were new and fun.

You’re over complicating the simple fact that classic Sonic in Gens was made to sell to classic fans, because you don’t want to admit ST is incompetent at designing authentic classic experiences. If they wanted to do their own “spin” on the gameplay, and that was always the intention, they wouldn’t have even included needless shit like the pathetic rolling in Gens to begin with. Were they fun levels, sure. But the point being discussed, is that ST even when making passable experiences, still fail to design the kind of authentic experiences Mania gave us, so wouldn’t likely follow up with a Mania 2 unless they either actually did research and learned to make games like that again, or hired Christian whitehead and his team again, something which is currently not looking likely 

 

16 minutes ago, MH MD said:

My claim is that they can make something truly special if they made fully 2D game with the style of generations, didn't say anything about it being better or worse than Mania, here are my words:

Quote

Mixed you with someone else in the topic, my bad there 

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16 minutes ago, MH MD said:

I can't recall myself a 2D platformer that played with the 3D space like that,consistently shifting camera positions, interconnected level designs with visible playable background, things like that, i am likely be wrong but i honest can't recall something like Sky sanctuary stage, DKCR aren't like that for example -while they are very good-, i guess Klonoa counts? If there are things i am missing i would like to know them.

 

I mean even if you don't want to count the new DKC games for some reason even though they do more with the foreground/background stuff than Generations....there were the two Sonic games before Generations. Mario Galaxy. Littlebigplanet. Strider.  Indie games like Splosion man, Lost Winds, Trine, Limbo...

It was a pretty common technique in that time. There's a reason why nobody considers those classic segments particularly praiseworthy. They're not doing Classic Sonic well and they're not doing anything uniquely well either.

 

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