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I don't think they'll ever make a Mania 2 :(


J.R.
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Also, since I can see people trying to move goalposts in the middle of the night so that no one notices.

12 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I just said they can do something good enough, not that they can surpass Mania.



This conversation started with this stupid shit:

 

On 12/29/2021 at 10:09 AM, CertifiedNobody said:

Sonic Team absolutely could make a 2D classic Sonic game that's better than Mania,

You promptly backed up this statement.

 

On 12/29/2021 at 11:43 AM, Kuzu said:

To be fair, they probably could if they really wanted to....but they don't really want because they care more about doing their own thing. 


You literally said this. You didn't even bother to go back and edit the post. it's right there. You only need to scroll up for a couple of seconds to see it. MH MD at the very least has been consistent. Arguing with you about this(or about anything) is a waste of time. 

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So before I ruin what little creditability I have left in this thread.

I was not trying to insinuate that Sonic Team could make a better game than Sonic Mania, just that they could make a game that doesn't completely suck at replicating Classic Sonic. Which yea, ain't a high bar to clear, but here we are. 

 

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1 hour ago, KHCast said:

This is such a disingenuous false equivalence. Using stages, is not the same thing as using entire gameplay mechanics clearly made to appeal to a market that has been demanding that style of gameplay for years, and advertising it to said market as “that old Sonic you remember”.

'That old Sonic you remember" is not that different to "that old City Escape you remember" to me

from my memory at the time, i don't even recalling them claiming that it's "just like the classics" in the same way they actually tried that shit with the so-called Sonic 4 -and failing- , they even let people actually try the game after 2 months of reveal, and only the classic zone, and this limited demo was 5 months before the game released, they didn't fool anyone, they actually presented what they had in store and let people try and make their conclusion.

Compared to how just 1 year before it, how Sonic 4 leak reception -not even official gameplay, a mere leak- was so negative, they had to actually delay the game and redo some stages...i would say the marketing for Generations was hella transparent compared to that

 

1 hour ago, KHCast said:

You’re over complicating the simple fact that classic Sonic in Gens was made to sell to classic fans, because you don’t want to admit ST is incompetent at designing authentic classic experiences. If they wanted to do their own “spin” on the gameplay, and that was always the intention, they wouldn’t have even included needless shit like the pathetic rolling in Gens to begin with. Were they fun levels, sure. But the point being discussed, is that ST even when making passable experiences, still fail to design the kind of authentic experiences Mania gave us, so wouldn’t likely follow up with a Mania 2 unless they either actually did research and learned to make games like that again, or hired Christian whitehead and his team again, something which is currently not looking likely 

Classic Sonic without rolling would just feel wrong...even if it's useless, but the levels weren't designed around it in any way, how the instant spindash is so powerful , it overrides any need for rolling or momentum-based gameplay, it was basically Boost button for Classic Sonic

They actually removed that button from Classic Sonic in Forces, and he behaved just like classic games "press down and jump to spindash, which is now weaker than Gen", and levels were also designed in -loosely- similar way, but obviously way worse, it was the true poor imitations of classics, especially with Mania next to it -but also Forces was poor imitation to even Boost gameplay haha-

Would they make Classic gamplay so similar to classic games like Mania? i don't actually think so with their current skillset, who even remains there that even worked on the classics? besides Iizuka, who is basically just managing the brand and team, Whitehead and his team only reached that level of understanding classic gameplay by actually working on it for years, something Sonic Team clearly didn't do.

but i also believe they can make different and good 2D experience if they actually tried, based on the one instance in the past when they did...is all i am saying

 

1 hour ago, KHCast said:

Mixed you with someone else in the topic, my bad there 

Didn't even noticed that that statement was actually said to be fair, it's okay

 

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

I mean even if you don't want to count the new DKC games for some reason even though they do more with the foreground/background stuff than Generations....there were the two Sonic games before Generations. Mario Galaxy. Littlebigplanet. Strider.  Indie games like Splosion man, Lost Winds, Trine, Limbo...

I tried basically all of them besides lost winds and i don't really think they are similar -and Limbo is fully 2D isn't it? don't recall something similar there either-

but i digress 

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Man, this thread has really confirmed for me that Mania 2 is quickly becoming the new SA3 for a lot of Sonic fans, lol

And in regards to the current discussion, Classic Sonic's gameplay in Generations never even tried to be a 1:1 replica of Sonic's Genesis gameplay & I don't recall SEGA marketing it as such. With the amount of talent at SEGA I think they are fully capable of making a fantastic 2D game, but that's not the goal of Sonic Team & they're the only ones who are consistently working on the series. 

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Its the Sonic 4 problem; when you invoke Classic imagery in some form or fashion, you're creating a lot of expectations with that. The Classic era is generally considered the series at its peak, with Sonic 3 standing on top of it, so when you have a game that meant to directly callback to that era like Sonic 4 and Generations were, you're basically asking for those comparisons. 

Sonic Mania is the closest the series gets, and even that game is generally considered inferior to Sonic 3, but there's a much bigger effort at emulating the Classics than Sonic Generations and especially Sonic 4. 

 

I feel like the biggest problem is that Sega will market the game in a certain way, but it fails at the expectations it builds up. The most blatant example is citing Sonic Colors' and Sonic Generations when Forces made its formal debut, but the final product actually feels like nothing like those two games beyond a superficial level. And Sonic Mania coming out a few months prior just highlighting how inferior Forces' version was. 

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6 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Its the Sonic 4 problem; when you invoke Classic imagery in some form or fashion, you're creating a lot of expectations with that. The Classic era is generally considered the series at its peak, with Sonic 3 standing on top of it, so when you have a game that meant to directly callback to that era like Sonic 4 and Generations were, you're basically asking for those comparisons. 

Sonic Mania is the closest the series gets, and even that game is generally considered inferior to Sonic 3, but there's a much bigger effort at emulating the Classics than Sonic Generations and especially Sonic 4. 

 

I feel like the biggest problem is that Sega will market the game in a certain way, but it fails at the expectations it builds up. The most blatant example is citing Sonic Colors' and Sonic Generations when Forces made its formal debut, but the final product actually feels like nothing like those two games beyond a superficial level. And Sonic Mania coming out a few months prior just highlighting how inferior Forces' version was. 

Tbh, all that tells me is that SEGA used Classic/Adventure & Boost-era love as a cheap marketing tool over the last decade, with little attempt at actually replicating what people loved about those eras & only sticking the landing a few times thanks to the hard work of the developers who made Generations & Mania successes, despite whatever flaws either game may have.

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2 minutes ago, D.H said:

Tbh, all that tells me is that SEGA used Classic/Adventure & Boost-era love as a cheap marketing tool over the last decade, with little attempt at actually replicating what people loved about those eras & only sticking the landing a few times thanks to the hard work of the developers who made Generations & Mania successes, despite whatever flaws either game may have.

More or less, they've been halfassing this series and relying on goodwill more than the games actually being good. Generations got away with it because it was the first time they did it, and the game was good enough where people were willing to overlook it. They probably thought the goodwill brought from Colors and Generations would have alleviated the fact that they half-assed Forces, even though Generations came out in 2011 versus Forces releasing in 2017, and the fact that Sonic Mania had show us what actual Classic gameplay could be like under someone who gave a damn. 

 

They just got really fucking arrogant and thought they could just coast on the goodwill of a game released 6 years prior, which was just shortsighted as hell, but that's how Sega rolls :V

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22 hours ago, D.H said:

Man, this thread has really confirmed for me that Mania 2 is quickly becoming the new SA3 for a lot of Sonic fans, lol

I said exactly the same thing on Retro. At some point, mods are gonna have to ban Mania 2 begging threads like they banned SA3 begging threads.

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Feels like just yesterday in 2017 when Mania 2 felt like an inevitability. Wild to go from that to entertaining the possibility it'll be the next Adventure 3. (Then again, maybe that means we'll get two or three debateable Mania 2s)

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peterpan

Mania 2 actually happening feels very unlike to me, but it would be dope if it did.

Also, I'm not tired of classic Sonic. I'm tired of classic Sonic paired with poopy gameplay (Sonic 4, Generations, Forces).

 

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Treacher

I think I recall Iizuka or someone at Sonic Team being fine with more 2D Sonic games in the future and it's not like they ever truly went away from the franchise given the Advance, Rush, and Rivals games made in tandem with Sonic Team's console titles prior to making a big thing show about it returning to consoles (in some form) via 4, and Colors, Gens, and Lost World and Forces' abundant sidescrolling sections. I just wish that if they're ever going to do it again be it from Sonic Team themselves or from some other studio that is handled competently at whatever it sets out to do. I'd love it if Evening Star and Headcannon joined up for another 2D Sonic game-it doesn't necessarily need to be  a direct Mania sequel, especially if it's filled with exclusively new and original zones this time but as others pointed out, they worked hard on Mania and I wouldn't want them to be burned out churning Sonic games indefinitey. Even Dimps needed a well deserved break from the series to go and do something else and I always wonder just what it was like for them behind the scenes ever since Pocket Adventure:

They got their fair share of complaints for their deviation from the Classic Sonic formula as early as the second Advance game,  doubled down on their approach with a new gameplay style introduced in Rush, and then proceeded to get major flack and scrutiny for the majority of their output it seems between 2010 and 13 aside from Colors DS, frequently alternating between doing old and new styles of Sonic gameplay with increasingly mixed to negative reception in such a relatively brief timespan. I don't know them too well as to how proficient they were in having to develop another DS game on top of doing a 2 (and potentially 3) part mobile and downloadable multiplatform title, followed by two 3DS games as their final contibutions to the series all with Sonic Team and Sega's mandates and guidance but I wouldn't be surprised if they got sick of it all near the time they were through. Assuming the pool of staff there didn't radically change (got to look up and cross examine their credits). I wouldn't want a similar fate befalling Whitehead and co. and Yuji Naka didn't even want to do a sequel to Sonic 1 right away upon partnering with STI.

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